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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
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    Default Should I Houserule Away with The Multiclass XP-penalty?

    Basically all the title says. I am not very experienced DM playing with a group of players who know even less than me about D&D.

    I ask this question because on this forum people often suggest builds which use three or four classes, not counting Prestige, and I just don't understand how they could work with the penalty’s as described in de PHB.

    so I wonderd, what do you guys do?

    Keep it or get rid of it?

    (oh, we're playing 3.5)

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    Default Re: Should I Houserule Away with The Multiclass XP-penalty?

    Each race has a favored class which negates one multi-class penalty if you go into that favored class.

    Otherwise it is less of a headache if you just get rid of it.
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    Default Re: Should I Houserule Away with The Multiclass XP-penalty?

    I say chuck it out the window (along with racial alignments but that's one houserule that I always implement, along with a bonus feat or extra skill point for half-elves and half-orcs).
    Last edited by CoffeeIncluded; 2013-04-09 at 02:34 PM.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Should I Houserule Away with The Multiclass XP-penalty?

    I do.

    If you want to keep favored classes, but do away with the XP penalty for multiclassing, take a leaf from Pathfinder: When you take your first level in your favored class, you choose (irrevocably) HP or Skill points. Every level of your favored class, you gain 1 additional HP or Skill point, depending on what you chose 1st level.
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    Default Re: Should I Houserule Away with The Multiclass XP-penalty?

    forum people often suggest builds which use three or four classes, not counting Prestige
    Keep in mind the penalty only applies when you have classes that are more than 1 level apart from each other, and your Favored Class doesn't count. So if you take, say, a Human, and make a build like Class X 2/Class Y 2/Class Z 2/Class A 10.. there is no multiclass penalty on that. But there *is* a penalty if you are doing an 'organic' progression and decide that events in the character's life warrant slipping a level in Rogue or something into your Wizard..

    Which is why many people ditch the multiclass penalty. It does *not* discourage multiple dips and carefully planned builds, which would appear to be the intended purpose, and it *does* harm spontaneous development of a character, which is generally considered to be a bad thing by most of the people I've heard tender opinions on it.

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    DwarfBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Should I Houserule Away with The Multiclass XP-penalty?

    Get rid of it. Multiclassing doesn't really make you X% more powerful, so it wouldn't be fair to penalize it like that.

    Until the players start to maximize their saves. You might want to use the fractional saves rule from Unearthed Arcana when that happens.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Should I Houserule Away with The Multiclass XP-penalty?

    Most people seem to play without it to the point were people feel the need to actually point out if they DO use it.

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    Default Re: Should I Houserule Away with The Multiclass XP-penalty?

    Multiclass XP-penalty? What Multiclass XP-Penalty?

    Oh THAT multiclass XP-penalty!

    Yes, you should totally ignore that. It's completely pointless.
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    Default Re: Should I Houserule Away with The Multiclass XP-penalty?

    Yes, get rid of it.

    I always favor reduced bookkeeping and smoother rules. If you want a penalty for multiclass (why?) make it a one-time XP payment they make when they first add a new class.

    If you're worried about powergaming and strange class combinations, talk out of game to your players.
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    Default Re: Should I Houserule Away with The Multiclass XP-penalty?

    Yeah Nikita, I thought so to, but I wasn't sure so I wanted to check.

    thanks every one for the imput, it seems to be unanimous so I'll get rid of it.

    btw, my players have yet to master the complicated rules governing which die they should role in which situation (they keep trying to do damage with there d20) so I doubt it will be an issue soon

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    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Should I Houserule Away with The Multiclass XP-penalty?

    Get rid of it. It makes no sense anyway (what it amounts to is permitting every elf to take a few levels of wizard to go with their main class, rather than making elves better wizards).

    Replace it with the Conan d20 favored class rule: for every 5th level you take in your favored class (one class chosen at 1st level for humans and half-elves), you get a bonus feat.

    The Pathfinder rule is okay, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by the_david View Post
    Get rid of it. Multiclassing doesn't really make you X% more powerful, so it wouldn't be fair to penalize it like that.

    Until the players start to maximize their saves. You might want to use the fractional saves rule from Unearthed Arcana when that happens.
    IMO the fractional BAB and saves are always better anyway - sometimes they work out to the players' advantage (like, say, a wizard 1/rogue 1 getting BAB +1 instead of +0). Also, only give good saves the +2 bonus at first level once.

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    Default Re: Should I Houserule Away with The Multiclass XP-penalty?

    Wait... there are people who play with that rule?
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    Default Re: Should I Houserule Away with The Multiclass XP-penalty?

    Quote Originally Posted by laeZ1 View Post
    I do.

    If you want to keep favored classes, but do away with the XP penalty for multiclassing, take a leaf from Pathfinder: When you take your first level in your favored class, you choose (irrevocably) HP or Skill points. Every level of your favored class, you gain 1 additional HP or Skill point, depending on what you chose 1st level.
    FYI, that isn't how Pathfinder does it.
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    Default Re: Should I Houserule Away with The Multiclass XP-penalty?

    The better question is, does anyone actually use the muliclass XP penalty? It's probably the most ignored piece of RAW ever.
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    Default Re: Should I Houserule Away with The Multiclass XP-penalty?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Random NPC View Post
    Spoiler
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    Favored Class
    Each character begins play with a single favored class of his choosing—typically, this is the same class as the one he chooses at 1st level. Whenever a character gains a level in his favored class, he receives either + 1 hit point or + 1 skill rank. The choice of favored class cannot be changed once the character is created, and the choice of gaining a hit point or a skill rank each time a character gains a level (including his first level) cannot be changed once made for a particular level. Prestige classes (see Prestige Classes) can never be a favored class.


    Isn't that what I said
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    Default Re: Should I Houserule Away with The Multiclass XP-penalty?

    Quote Originally Posted by laeZ1 View Post
    Spoiler
    Show
    Favored Class
    Each character begins play with a single favored class of his choosing—typically, this is the same class as the one he chooses at 1st level. Whenever a character gains a level in his favored class, he receives either + 1 hit point or + 1 skill rank. The choice of favored class cannot be changed once the character is created, and the choice of gaining a hit point or a skill rank each time a character gains a level (including his first level) cannot be changed once made for a particular level. Prestige classes (see Prestige Classes) can never be a favored class.


    Isn't that what I said
    You aren't locked into always getting HP or skill points based on your choice at your first level in your favored class. You get to choose which one you receive at each level in your favored class.
    Quote Originally Posted by PFSRD, Favored Class
    Each character begins play with a single favored class of his choosing—typically, this is the same class as the one he chooses at 1st level. Whenever a character gains a level in his favored class, he receives either + 1 hit point or + 1 skill rank. The choice of favored class cannot be changed once the character is created, and the choice of gaining a hit point or a skill rank each time a character gains a level (including his first level) cannot be changed once made for a particular level. Prestige classes (see Prestige Classes) can never be a favored class.
    (Emphasis mine)
    Last edited by Karnith; 2013-04-09 at 04:40 PM.
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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Should I Houserule Away with The Multiclass XP-penalty?

    Wow. You are absolutely correct. I've misread that every time.

    Thanks much!
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    Default Re: Should I Houserule Away with The Multiclass XP-penalty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Waspinator View Post
    The better question is, does anyone actually use the muliclass XP penalty? It's probably the most ignored piece of RAW ever.
    I don't, as evidenced by the fact that I actually had to go and look up how it works when I saw this topic.
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    Default Re: Should I Houserule Away with The Multiclass XP-penalty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Waspinator View Post
    The better question is, does anyone actually use the muliclass XP penalty? It's probably the most ignored piece of RAW ever.
    When I first started DMing, I enforced the XP penalty. I'm embarrassed to say that I kept to it for years before changing my mind.
    Last edited by Karnith; 2013-04-09 at 06:27 PM.
    Tier System for Classes | Why Each Class Is In Its Tier

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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Should I Houserule Away with The Multiclass XP-penalty?

    Measure rules changes by their effect. If you think the players aren't multi-classing enough, do away with the penalty.

    Bu if your game is not being hurt by insufficient multi-classed characters, then there's no reason to change the rule.

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    Default Re: Should I Houserule Away with The Multiclass XP-penalty?

    You should keep the rule. It's perfectly logical to punish the dirty munchkin for dipping Fighter 2 with his Barbarian, while doing nothing to the player who takes Druid to 20. In fact, you should probably reward the latter player with bonus XP.


    The rule is absolutely stupid. WotC created a brilliant mechanic, and then decided to nerf it for people using it intuitively even when it wasn't always a good choice.

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    Default Re: Should I Houserule Away with The Multiclass XP-penalty?

    I do think it's funny that you can get penalized for taking dips in classes that make your character worse.

    Wait, is that a Barbarian 15/Sorcerer 2? Egads, the brokenness! It must be stopped at all costs! Oh, you've got a Wizard 17? That's cool.

    Yeah, I'm not sure why I ever thought the XP penalty was a good idea.
    Last edited by Karnith; 2013-04-09 at 09:36 PM.
    Tier System for Classes | Why Each Class Is In Its Tier

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    Default Re: Should I Houserule Away with The Multiclass XP-penalty?

    It's like the massive damage rule.

    It's so awful, and so universally ignored, nobody even knows it exists and is practically a variant rule.
    Last edited by Slipperychicken; 2013-04-09 at 09:27 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
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    Default Re: Should I Houserule Away with The Multiclass XP-penalty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipperychicken View Post
    It's like the massive damage rule.

    It's so awful, and so universally ignored, nobody even knows it exists and is practically a variant rule.
    Now now, the idea behind the massive damage rule is all right actually, but my DM tends to prefer to run it with being a specific amount of your characters total hp (think it's like half hp or above) to be considered "massive damage". The XP Penalty for multi-classing doesn't even have an "all right" basic idea going for it. :p

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    Default Re: Should I Houserule Away with The Multiclass XP-penalty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Karnith View Post
    I do think it's funny that you can get penalized for taking dips in classes that make your character worse.

    Wait, is that a Barbarian 15/Sorcerer 2? Egads, the brokenness! It must be stopped at all costs! Oh, you've got a Wizard 17? That's cool.

    Yeah, I'm not sure why I ever thought the XP penalty was a good idea.
    Are there actually any classes or appreciable shifts to power that might happen if there was a limit even on prestige classes, let alone base class multiclassing idiocy (your mentioned Barb 15/Sorc 2)? Hell, do prestige classes even count as multiclassing?

    Because if they don't, then I find it hilarious that a Wiz 5 / Inc 10 / IotSV 4 / Tainted Scholar 1 wouldn't take a penalty, but a Fighter 2 / Rogue 2 / Monk 2 / Barbarian 14 (feats, evasion, flurry of blows and Monk AC!) would.
    Quote Originally Posted by Slipperychicken View Post
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    Default Re: Should I Houserule Away with The Multiclass XP-penalty?

    Prestige classes never count towards multiclassing penalties.
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    Default Re: Should I Houserule Away with The Multiclass XP-penalty?

    Yeah, the fact that prestige classes don't even count for it makes the rule REALLY badly written.
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    Default Re: Should I Houserule Away with The Multiclass XP-penalty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipperychicken View Post
    It's like the massive damage rule.

    It's so awful, and so universally ignored, nobody even knows it exists and is practically a variant rule.
    I've never had a problem with that rule in D&D 3E (though I rarely remember it), but it's the cornerstone of the combat balance in d20 Modern, Conan d20, and Call of Cthulhu d20.

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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Should I Houserule Away with The Multiclass XP-penalty?

    I've never had a reason to house rule it really at all. I don't reward XP as a 'group' reward, so people can get different values, and to date I think I've had it only leave someone behind in level once...

    Simply put: The worst thing that can happen with it is someone falls behind (which is part of the intention), but if you don't feel you want to deal with that or the issue of recalculating their XP then throw it out, or find other methods to mitigate it.

    On a pure side note: There are legitimate ways in the game system to remove the penalty (though few in number). I know that one of the lures of Lyrist is in any game where the DM is a hardass on multiclassers is that it removes the penalty entirely.
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    Default Actually...

    Actually, I disagree with the ''ignore it'' comments above. The Multiclass XP-Penalty is a well though rule that keeps PCs in a sole line (or an specific build) without getting OP. If this ISN'T true, then think about the roleplaying.

    • Martainz: Il'l take my path as a fighter, yeah... But, what the hell? Il'l go cleric this time, I want to cast 5th level spells :D. Oh, Rogue you said? Barbarian? Wizard!! Artificer~~ Those are interesting jobs! But I would like to continue my path as fighter after all that, and maybe adding more divinity to myself as the cleric I will be.
    You should remember that not all the rules are made-and-applied to combat only. Roleplaying is an important part of D&D (and a lot of ''roleplaying'' games... duh?), and the fact that gnomes are good being social as bards, and the elves are more used to study magic as wizards (which personally I don't know why...) is a story and roleplaying issue. Think about it.

    Now, what I would suggest you to Houserule, is to change favored classes according to backgrounds or applying as the Tinker Gnome from DragonLance: ''The first class chosen by the gnome will be its favored class.''
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