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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default Jedi Games: Inherently Hypocritical?

    I realized something was bugging me about Jedi Academy and Force Unleashed: They're perfectly normal videogames. I mean, that is, you start at Point A, and you finish at Point B, and in between you kill a lot of people. Neither of them have any stealth mechanics. Force Unleashed gives you XP per kill, directly rewarding the player for violence. Jedi Academy only rewards you for completing to the mission, but that's a lot easier when you kill people, and it's assumed that you're going to butcher everyone; it's worked into the dialogue- Even if you play through as a pacifist, characters still talk as though you're cutting a swath through the empire. Heck, on the missions where an ally tags along, you can disarm enemies and Kyle will cut them down while laughing manically.

    Kotor 2 points out this sort of thing: If you go lightside, and spare the council, they call you an abomination, citing the way you're nigh impossible to kill and that your power level increases every time you kill a small army.

    Are there any games where you can play as a vaguely responsible superhuman? Maybe one who uses stealth and creativity to resolve problems with a minimum of bloodshed? I mean, games besides Dishonored.
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    Default Re: Jedi Games: Inherently Hipocritical?

    There's Deus Ex, where you can get away with shooting noone, as far as I remember.

    Also, in a way I LIKE the way that killing is easier, because that's how people
    fall to the dark side. Taking the easy way out. The violent way out.

    Of course, if the game on the other hand rewards you for killing, it's not sending that message.

    However, I wouldn't object to violence per se as a tool of conflict resolution. Sometimes people want to kill you, or threaten others, and then you kill them right back.
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    Default Re: Jedi Games: Inherently Hipocritical?

    Fallout 1 and 2 are doable with minimal bloodshed, though there's not a ton of advantages for doing it that way.

    Alpha Protocol is also doable as a near-complete pacifist (I think you end up killing one guy in a CG regardless, but that's about it). And, in some cases, you do get benefits and rewards for not running in guns blazing.

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    Default Re: Jedi Games: Inherently Hipocritical?

    Quote Originally Posted by GolemsVoice View Post
    Also, in a way I LIKE the way that killing is easier, because that's how people fall to the dark side. Taking the easy way out. The violent way out.
    Stop making me think about my actions in a Jedi game. Next you're going to want me to let them shoot first.
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    Default Re: Jedi Games: Inherently Hipocritical?

    Quote Originally Posted by shadow_archmagi View Post
    Are there any games where you can play as a vaguely responsible superhuman? Maybe one who uses stealth and creativity to resolve problems with a minimum of bloodshed? I mean, games besides Dishonored.
    I'm not sure it would count, but Iji is a game where there are basically two routes: pacifist and berserker. In pacifist, you can go throughout the game without killing a single enemy*. Berserker, on the other hand, is essentially wading knee-deep in the blood of your enemies. If you follow the 'kill all aliens' route, Iji goes steadily more unhinged and revels in the violence. You don't need to hunt down everyone, but if you kill too many enemies then you get the kill them all ending anyway.




    *deaths caused by enemy induced explosions, like that from a rocket launcher, don't count toward your kill total.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Jedi Games: Inherently Hipocritical?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vauron View Post
    I'm not sure it would count, but Iji is a game where there are basically two routes: pacifist and berserker. In pacifist, you can go throughout the game without killing a single enemy*. Berserker, on the other hand, is essentially wading knee-deep in the blood of your enemies.
    Not really. It's more like pacifist and non-pacifist - and in the latter it doesn't matter if you kill some or all enemies, the plot is the same.

    Personally I think Iji dropped the ball in the newer versions, where there are actual rewards for going pacifist. I feel it misses the point of it being your choice, guided only by morality and not prizes at the end. Also, if you redirect enemy missiles back at them and they die it doesn't count as a kill - which isn't very pacifistic at all and makes the formerly hard pacifist runs really easy.

    But don't get me wrong. It is a great game.

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    Default Re: Jedi Games: Inherently Hipocritical?

    Their are some nice stealth games. Ulitmate Assassin is a good flash stealth game, and you only kill one person per level. You don't have the option of killing any of the guards or what have you, which makes the game a massive pain after a certain point.
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    Default Re: Jedi Games: Inherently Hipocritical?

    Quote Originally Posted by GolemsVoice View Post
    There's Deus Ex, where you can get away with shooting noone, as far as I remember.

    Also, in a way I LIKE the way that killing is easier, because that's how people
    fall to the dark side. Taking the easy way out. The violent way out.

    Of course, if the game on the other hand rewards you for killing, it's not sending that message.

    However, I wouldn't object to violence per se as a tool of conflict resolution. Sometimes people want to kill you, or threaten others, and then you kill them right back.

    Inherently
    , no, nothing wrong with violence in games. I'm fine that, say, Bioshock has you kill a lot of dudes. There's nothing wrong with Master Chief gunning down a small army in Halo- He's a weapon, who exists for the purpose of gunning down small armies. Jedi, however, are supposed to be peacekeepers, and more importantly, they live in a universe where one of the core rules of magic is that there is a supernaturally slippery slope where violence is concerned.


    On a related note, I feel like the new Metro does a good job of making me hesitant to just kill everyone.
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    Default Re: Jedi Games: Inherently Hipocritical?

    Dont really think its that violence itself rests on the slippery slope to doom, it is star wars afterall, not TNG trek. Violence is necessary and inescapable at times. More that its the hows and whys, means and motives that corrupt noble causes. Whats wrong with bringing peace and order to the galaxy, after all.

    Say you have two warring factions who refuse to listen to the overtures of peace. Rather than laying down their arms they form a pact to fight you, then later go back to killing each other. Is it really that bad to rescue their leader's families, their children, who had been traded to each other as pawns to keep their opposite in line. Is it evil to use their children as leverage to force them to the peace talks the same way they intended to leverage them for murder and mayhem? TIE Fighter campaign, what 2? 3? Been years.



    Or at least, I used to think that way. Before the dark times. Before the Prequels. Good will always triumph because evil is emo.

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    Default Re: Jedi Games: Inherently Hipocritical?

    Quote Originally Posted by Impnemo View Post
    Dont really think its that violence itself rests on the slippery slope to doom, it is star wars afterall, not TNG trek. Violence is necessary and inescapable at times. More that its the hows and whys, means and motives that corrupt noble causes. Whats wrong with bringing peace and order to the galaxy, after all.
    Reminder that this was Anakin's literal justification for his actions in Revenge of the Sith.
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    Default Re: Jedi Games: Inherently Hipocritical?

    I remember the original kotor were a jedi padawan had fallen to the dark side, so you had to beat the hell out of her to turn her back to the side of righteousness. Because the best way to show the flaws in the dark side is violence.

    I think the issue is the lightsaber fights are really cool, but lightsaber fights are difficult to program... so the makers don't want there to be an option that reduces the amount of lightsaber fights.
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    Default Re: Jedi Games: Inherently Hipocritical?

    A Jedi does not have to be violent to fall to the dark side.

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    Default Re: Jedi Games: Inherently Hipocritical?

    Clearly, you should fight using nothing but reflected blaster bolts.
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    Default Re: Jedi Games: Inherently Hipocritical?

    In fairness to Starkiller, he is a Sith for 90 per cent of the game, and Vader even orders him to kill everyone he finds on one mission.
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    Default Re: Jedi Games: Inherently Hipocritical?

    Quote Originally Posted by bobthe6th View Post
    ... the best way to show the flaws in the dark side is violence.
    This is actually fairly true, considered in context. Many who draw on the dark side do so because they want power, and they see the Jedi way as weak. By defeating the dark sider while remaining committed to the light, you show them that the dark side is not stronger—if anything, it's weaker because it tends to cloud your judgment.
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    Default Re: Jedi Games: Inherently Hipocritical?

    Quote Originally Posted by Impnemo View Post
    More that its the hows and whys, means and motives that corrupt noble causes.
    Right, but most star wars games don't even regulate the how's and why's. In Jedi Academy, you can disarm every stormtrooper but one, and then use Mind Trick to force him to execute his friends. You can use Health Drain to grab an enemy by the face and literally suck the life out of them just for giggles, and this is in no way remarked on by the game. (Well, technically, Kyle will say you seem troubled if you learn darkside powers exclusively, but that's literally two sentences and doesn't change anything anywhere.)

    Quote Originally Posted by bobthe6th View Post
    I think the issue is the lightsaber fights are really cool, but lightsaber fights are difficult to program... so the makers don't want there to be an option that reduces the amount of lightsaber fights.
    I think the issue is that games where you have a lot of power and mobility are really fun (Prototype, Spiderman, etc), and they've been done often enough that there's a clear recipe for them. Lightsaber duels themselves are actually generally pretty poorly done (Kotor was just D&D 3.5, Force Unleashed 2's duel with Vader is one of the least impressive examples of quicktime events and pattern bosses, and Jedi Academy could've been interesting but I could never get the hang of it so I mostly just flailed wildly.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawriel View Post
    A Jedi does not have to be violent to fall to the dark side.
    True, but since the dark side is all about things like pain, destruction, etc, violence is a very quick road to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Candle Jack View Post
    In fairness to Starkiller, he is a Sith for 90 per cent of the game, and Vader even orders him to kill everyone he finds on one mission.
    True! I was thinking mostly of Force Unleashed 2, although one could argue that if the player doesn't take any redeeming action for 90% of the game, and then in the final scene Starkiller stops being a jerk, that's still crazy bad integration of gameplay and story.
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    Default Re: Jedi Games: Inherently Hipocritical?

    Hah, how about Star Wars ToR, where leader of the Jedi Council is all concerned over the Jedi Knight because s/he killed someone in a plot event.

    Hey Satele, how about the forty generic respawning enemies I killed to get to level 5? Even the Sith Warrior is lagging behind me because most of his starting enemies are unintelligent giant insects.

    By the time the Knight is done with the story s/he has killed enough people to qualify as a small apocalypse, and whether s/he is Lightside or Darkside and made a Master or denied a seat on the Council mostly depends on if s/he has spared or killed around 10-15 people. 10-15 among the tens of thousands of guaranteed bodies. Oh, and whether s/he said conciliatory or angry things before killing about fifteen more.

    In terms of body-count, Star Wars Kinect is probably the most 'Jedi' of Jedi games.

    *dodges a horde of thrown objects*

    Alpha Protocol and Deus Ex (also Deus Ex: HR) are probably the most pacifist-friendly games I've played. Robin Hood: Legend of Sherwood also gives score and bennies based on not killing people. And as mentioned before, Speech is the ultimate skill in the Fallout series.

    I dunno, I would play the bajeezus out of a Jedi game with stealth and conversation minigames and myriad ways to talk through conflicts. Seems like even the Jedi Consular is all about killing, just with Force Powers.
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    Default Re: Jedi Games: Inherently Hipocritical?

    Star Wars verse need an equivalent of Spec Ops : The Line

    Makes you realize the consequences of your own actions.

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    Default Re: Jedi Games: Inherently Hipocritical?

    Inherently, no, nothing wrong with violence in games. I'm fine that, say, Bioshock has you kill a lot of dudes. There's nothing wrong with Master Chief gunning down a small army in Halo- He's a weapon, who exists for the purpose of gunning down small armies. Jedi, however, are supposed to be peacekeepers, and more importantly, they live in a universe where one of the core rules of magic is that there is a supernaturally slippery slope where violence is concerned.
    Oh absolutely, on that we agree.

    I think it also comes down to how Jedi are portrayed, generally. Yes, there's much talk about how violence is the path to the dark side, but when it comes down to it, even Yoda becomes a whirling green ball of lightsaber-related injuries. Granted, mostly against droids, but still. The original trilogy wasn't as bad about it, but even there, Jedi are fighters. So that's how people, or at least people who aren't that invested in SW canon, know them. They know: Jedi kill folks with lightsabers, yo.
    Ass to that that people and producers might think that Jedi stealth games are boring ("I have a dude whose sword can cut through everything, but he's sneaking like a rat, what gives?"), and the general carelessness video games show towards killing, and you get the result.
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    Default Re: Jedi Games: Inherently Hipocritical?

    Quote Originally Posted by GolemsVoice View Post
    Oh absolutely, on that we agree.

    I think it also comes down to how Jedi are portrayed, generally. Yes, there's much talk about how violence is the path to the dark side, but when it comes down to it, even Yoda becomes a whirling green ball of lightsaber-related injuries. Granted, mostly against droids, but still. The original trilogy wasn't as bad about it, but even there, Jedi are fighters. So that's how people, or at least people who aren't that invested in SW canon, know them. They know: Jedi kill folks with lightsabers, yo.
    Ass to that that people and producers might think that Jedi stealth games are boring ("I have a dude whose sword can cut through everything, but he's sneaking like a rat, what gives?"), and the general carelessness video games show towards killing, and you get the result.
    Have we actually seen Yoda kill anyone?

    And even if you would consider droids to be sentient beings deserving life, I am not sure a mass-produced unit of battle droids qualify.


    Anyway people; prepare to be disapointed regarding the future of Star Wars game. After all, do you really expect EA to start churning out intelligent and thought out games?

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    Default Re: Jedi Games: Inherently Hipocritical?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    Have we actually seen Yoda kill anyone?
    He decapitated a clone or two in Revenge of the Sith at Kashyyyk, didn't he?
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    Default Re: Jedi Games: Inherently Hipocritical?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamerlord View Post
    He decapitated a clone or two in Revenge of the Sith at Kashyyyk, didn't he?
    Yeah, and I'm pretty sure he helped Obi-wan kill a few more when they went back to the Jedi Temple on Coruscant.

    But in the twisted logic of the prequels, I suppose that clone troopers don't count, because they're basically just the organic equivalent of droids.
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    Default Re: Jedi Games: Inherently Hipocritical?

    Jedi were never pacifists. Not even in the good old days of the original trilogy. Not even in the original film.

    They are, after all, space samurai.

    Cutting some dude's arm off isn't light side or dark side. It just is. The issue of light or dark side is all down to intentions and emotional state.

    But that's not to say that the referenced games don't have major problems or that the issue doesn't get increasingly confusing the more EU you consider or anything. Personally, I find the whole concept of codified light and dark side powers increasingly part of the problem but that's really neither here nor there.

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    Default Re: Jedi Games: Inherently Hipocritical?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    Jedi were never pacifists. Not even in the good old days of the original trilogy. Not even in the original film.

    They are, after all, space samurai.

    Cutting some dude's arm off isn't light side or dark side. It just is. The issue of light or dark side is all down to intentions and emotional state.
    Yes... the Jedi way is about calmly and emotionlessly cutting down their myriad enemies with laserswords in a clinical fashion... like the Terminator.

    It's the ones who start giggling while doing it that you gotta watch.

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    Default Re: Jedi Games: Inherently Hipocritical?

    Quote Originally Posted by GungHo View Post
    Yes... the Jedi way is about calmly and emotionlessly cutting down their myriad enemies with laserswords in a clinical fashion... like the Terminator.

    It's the ones who start giggling while doing it that you gotta watch.
    Heh. At least in your set of examples, I can empathize easier with the latter, for some reason.

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    Default Re: Jedi Games: Inherently Hipocritical?

    Jedi are not pacifists. Jedi are PEACEKEEPERS (and the original quote from Obi-Wan was they were the, 'guardians of peace'.)

    Unfortunately, on this planet alone (and in the Star Wars galaxy at large), there are a number of cultures and groups that only respect strength. Peace means you have demonstrated you are so much stronger than them that conflict is pointless. Nobody sends unarmed peacekeepers to try and stop conflicts.

    The Jedi are such legendary fighters that most sane beings throughout the galaxy avoid conflict with them at all costs. That reputation has been earned - you attack a Jedi, you get put down. So in the interest of everybody staying alive, how about we instead rationally talk about how we can resolve whatever situation called them in?

    In Jedi Academy just about every single entity it is possible to kill attacks you first (and just about all of the ones that aren't hostile are service droids of various types). Likewise with KOTOR - there are almost zero non-hostile entities you can kill without getting Dark Side points - and almost all of the non-hostiles that don't generate DS points are non-sentient creatures to begin with.

    You can see it at the beginning of Phantom Menace. Until Sidious point blank ordered them to try and kill them, the Nemoidians basically wanted to meekly accede to Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. Think about that. This is an entire battle fleet that is blockading a planet - and they are absolutely terrified of just two Jedi.
    Last edited by Olinser; 2013-05-15 at 08:44 AM.

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    Default Re: Jedi Games: Inherently Hipocritical?

    In a few of the early Splinter Cell games, especially Chaos Theory, encouraged or forced you to not kill anyone. Not that it made the character more heroic though.
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    Default Re: Jedi Games: Inherently Hipocritical?

    Quote Originally Posted by Olinser View Post
    Jedi are not pacifists. Jedi are PEACEKEEPERS (and the original quote from Obi-Wan was they were the, 'guardians of peace'.)
    Nitpick: Peacemakers. Like the Colt.

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    Right, but most star wars games don't even regulate the how's and why's. In Jedi Academy, you can disarm every stormtrooper but one, and then use Mind Trick to force him to execute his friends. You can use Health Drain to grab an enemy by the face and literally suck the life out of them just for giggles, and this is in no way remarked on by the game. (Well, technically, Kyle will say you seem troubled if you learn darkside powers exclusively, but that's literally two sentences and doesn't change anything anywhere.)
    Oh I wont argue the in game reactions arent tepid, just that the in universe reasoning isnt an aversion to violence itself. I'd love a Jedi Deus Ex mind you.

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    Default Re: Jedi Games: Inherently Hipocritical?

    A lot of stealth games give you the option of playing the game without killing anyone. From ones that weren't mentioned already, there's Metal Gear Solid (especially from the second game on) and Thief. Hell, if you play Thief at the harder difficulties, killing anyone makes you automatically lose.

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    Default Re: Jedi Games: Inherently Hipocritical?

    "Man, these shooters and action games are too shooter-y and action-y."

    Jedi Academy and Force Unleashed(1 or 2) are shooters and action games respectively. You kill dudes because it's a game. The developers put no thought into the story, because it'd be wasting money and development time that could go into the lightsaber combat or force powers instead.

    KotoR(1 and 2) allows you to go through the entire game not attacking anything first. And, lo and behold, Jedi do that in many of the films and extended universe. However, just like Jedi, when something attacks you first in those games you are free to knock it out/kill it so long as you do not revel in its suffering/death, then you aren't going toward the Dark Side. In fact, there are many choices that Revan and the Exile can make to preserve as many lives as possible, and predictably those choices give Light Side points.

    As far as your point concerning the council in KotoR2: They want to cut you off from the Force. Not kill you. Kreia kills them before they can do so.

    SWToR allows you to go through the entire game letting anyone and anything attack you first as well. And you can give the appropriate Jedi response there too(preserving your own life and keeping the peace by defeating/killing the attacker). Again, as long as you do not revel in the suffering/death of the attacker then you aren't heading to Sithville. In all the LS options for Jedi in SWToR you're attempting to stop more violence from happening, or when violence is inevitable then you're attempting to preserve as many lives as possible.

    In closing: Yes, Jedi Action/Shooters are inherently hypocritical, because they're action/shooters and not dialogue simulators. You would need an RPG or stealth game with a lot of dialogue in order to properly model how an actual Jedi gets around his/her problems. And at least the RPG games are available to play.

    And before you ask: Neither Kyle Katarn nor the protagonist from Academy 2 are actual Jedi. The first is some scumbag who picked up a lightsaber, the second is some idiot trained by the scumbag who picked up a lightsaber. They both have the moral compass of children. In fact, one could make an argument that any Jedi trained by Luke Skywalker and any of his students are not actual Jedi. Because their code is nothing like the actual Jedi teachings aside from "Don't needlessly kill people".

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