Attack on Titan / Shingeki No Kyojin

[BRC]

As BRC said... the regular troops either cover in fear and get eaten or act like idiots and get eaten. But it can't be that hard to teach them how not to get eaten that easily. Really, for me it boils down to the fact that their basic training totally demoralizes them. Everyone but the elite and the soldiers at the very top of the food chain (with few exceptions) are scared ****less by Titans and as such their subordinates and recruits feel the same way. You can't win a war if you teach your soldiers they can't win anyway.

it's impossible to fully train sombody to be mentally ready for combat, especially combat against somthing as terrifying as a Titan. There just isn't any way for them to recreate the full "You are zipping around while a giant is trying to eat you" experience in a safe environment.
Also, I kind of doubt a more positive approach to the training would help much. "The Titans have driven us to the brink of extinction, but YOU can definetly beat them!". Their entire culture is constantly reminded (by the walls) how dangerous the Titans are. This isn't just the training making them terrified of the Titans, its their entire culture.


As for Mikasa, she was top of the class. But the mantle of "Person the show won't shut up about how awesome they are" has firmly shifted to Levi.

[Rosstin]

Spoilers from Manga:

Spoiler

Show

Any new ideas on what caused the Titans to exist?
• Technological origins would seem to flow with Eren's dad's crazy tech, especially now that we've seen other humanform titans who seem to have a cabal.
• OTOH, the apelike titan seems to indicate a kind of FF7-esque planet rebellion?
• Both of those theories seem kind of killed by the origin of titans being when humans were in a medieval state of tech development.

[BRC]

A thought I had earlier about one of the things I like about this show, or at least one unusual thing it does.

Eren is kind of unique (Not going to say absolutely unique, because as soon as I do somebody will post a list of 30 other things that do the same thing), in that he is a protagonist with extraordinary abilities, who is also powerless.

Before Trost, Eren was a decent soldier whose only real defining trait was his absolute hatred of the Titans. In a different show, that determination would have led him to success.
In this one, he got a heroic death.

Ever since that moment, the moment his abilities were revealed, he has lacked agency.

He was at the mercy of the garrison soldiers, surviving only because of Armin's words and Pixis' intervention.
He was helpless when he tried to lift the rock, only being brought out of it by Armin, only protected by Mikasa and the other soldiers.

he was helpless in front of the tribunal, only saved by the Recon corps.
He is the most powerful character on the show, but that power has not given him any agency. The show does not treat the Angry Titan as an extension of Eren himself.

Now, let's compare this to, say, Full Metal Alchemist.

Edward Elric is also part of a military organization. He also possesses an extraordinary ability (The ability to do alchemy without a transmutation circle). Like many similar characters, Edward is portrayed as also being highly talented outside his unique ability. In fact, his ability is in many ways an extension of his skill.

This is the case with plenty of protagonists (Esp in Shonen stuff). They are the best at what they do, and may have an extra something on top of that. Their skill and ability give them greater agency when it comes to achieving their goals.

Eren is not treated like that. The show dosn't act like he's a better or more impressive person because he can turn into the Angry Titan.

Here, let me throw an example at you.

The Justice League. Batman and The Flash are fighting something evil. Its a tough fight for them, however you know that if Superman was there the fight would be over in an instant.

That is how a lot of shows treat their protagonists. If the secondary characters are doing something, it's usually something the protagonist could do easily. This is why DBZ villains tend to punch their way through the supporting cast until Goku shows up.

In attack on titan, the supporting cast can legitimately shine because they're fighting very different battles than the protagonist.


Not saying this necessarily makes the show better, but its interesting.

[noparlpf]

Spoilers from Manga:

Spoiler

Show

Any new ideas on what caused the Titans to exist?
• Technological origins would seem to flow with Eren's dad's crazy tech, especially now that we've seen other humanform titans who seem to have a cabal.
• OTOH, the apelike titan seems to indicate a kind of FF7-esque planet rebellion?
• Both of those theories seem kind of killed by the origin of titans being when humans were in a medieval state of tech development.

Spoiler

Show

Haven't really figured it out yet. It's kind of implied they're made from humans (the village with the immobile titan that looked like the guy's mother, for example). As for how, dunno. Their low density is also interesting, but I don't know what to make of it. The wall suggests that the apocalypse was expected...building a wall of colossal titans would have taken preparation.
As for tech level, I kind of got the impression technology had regressed since the titans appeared. Simple cannons, firearms and whatnot would be about the limit of what they could easily re-develop. Most people now wouldn't even be able to re-create simple firearms, let alone computers or combustion engines, so it's to be expected that in a giant-zombie apocalypse technology would be mostly lost.

[Rosstin]

Eren is kind of unique (Not going to say absolutely unique, because as soon as I do somebody will post a list of 30 other things that do the same thing), in that he is a protagonist with extraordinary abilities, who is also powerless.

You know, you're right in a way, things don't magically start working out for him the way they do for a lot of anime protagonists.

Although, I can imagine him become a superpowered "I can do anythiiiiiiing" dude by the end of the series (in titan form)... I don't think that Eren alone will singlehandedly defeat all threats by his sheer power-of-love superpowers.

Attack on Titan shows that even Eren needs the support of all of the other soldiers protecting him in order to accomplish anything.

It's pretty neat, it's a little more mature than other anime.

[Nerd-o-rama]

er... no. It's not a coincidence that the most powerful, competent character in the show is the only japanese one in the entire setting.

Yeah. I mean, it's not like the big superior invincible hero in 99% of American stories is a white American guy, right?

[thubby]

Yeah. I mean, it's not like the big superior invincible hero in 99% of American stories is a white American guy, right?

the bulk of movies are also set in america, with the hero surrounded by people of every shape and size.
though among the top 10 grossing films 3 have non-american protagonists, and lotr is disqualified for being entirely high fantasy so 33% of them aren't.

I'm talking about the fact that anime often go to lengths to ensure anyone who is foreign is identified as 1/2 japanese in a medium where the only way to distinguish race is skin color.

[Finlam]

One random comment about AoT: For a human culture with exactly 1 asian, everyone sure acts very Japanese at times. /tongueincheek

[Nerd-o-rama]

the bulk of movies are also set in america, with the hero surrounded by people of every shape and size.
though among the top 10 grossing films 3 have non-american protagonists, and lotr is disqualified for being entirely high fantasy so 33% of them aren't.

I'm talking about the fact that anime often go to lengths to ensure anyone who is foreign is identified as 1/2 japanese in a medium where the only way to distinguish race is skin color.

Well, this is the US box office, but let's have a look

#1: Avatar. White American man in space.
#2: Titanic. White Irishman (trying to immigrate to America, to be fair here)
#3: The Avengers. Ensemble of white American guys plus a Russian lady and Samuel L. Jackson.
#4: The Dark Knight. White American man.
#5: Star Wars Episode I. Fantasy (starring white dudes)
#6: Star Wars Episode IV. Fantasy (starring white dudes)
#7: The Dark Knight Rises. White American man.
#8: Shrek 2. Fantasy (starring a white dude, though let's give credit to Eddie Murphy and Antonio Banderas here)
#9: ET. Ensemble of American kids and a puppet.
#10: Pirates of the Caribbean Dead Man's Chest. Ensemble of white British colonists in a time prior to the American Revolution.

I'm just saying, every culture does this.

[Flickerdart]

#3: The Avengers. Ensemble of white American guys plus a Russian lady and Samuel L. Jackson.

Arguable. Hulk kind of transcends race by being green (sure, Banner's white, but he's there because of the Hulk, not because of himself) and Thor is a god who's merely played by a white actor.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Arguable. Hulk kind of transcends race by being green (sure, Banner's white, but he's there because of the Hulk, not because of himself) and Thor is a god who's merely played by a white actor.

So I guess they count the same as Shrek and the Star Wars guys, respectively?

[FatJose]

Well, this is the US box office, but let's have a look

#1: Avatar. White American man in space.
#2: Titanic. White Irishman (trying to immigrate to America, to be fair here)
#3: The Avengers. Ensemble of white American guys plus a Russian lady and Samuel L. Jackson.
#4: The Dark Knight. White American man.
#5: Star Wars Episode I. Fantasy (starring white dudes)
#6: Star Wars Episode IV. Fantasy (starring white dudes)
#7: The Dark Knight Rises. White American man.
#8: Shrek 2. Fantasy (starring a white dude, though let's give credit to Eddie Murphy and Antonio Banderas here)
#9: ET. Ensemble of American kids and a puppet.
#10: Pirates of the Caribbean Dead Man's Chest. Ensemble of white British colonists in a time prior to the American Revolution.

I'm just saying, every culture does this.

Those are kind of bad examples. Besides Irish people not being considered fully white by most Americans until some time after the mid 1900s, the superhero movies are based on 60+ year old franchises from a less inclusive period, Avatar is Dances With Wolves, Star Wars is simply staying in line with the characters of the original three which are 70-80s movies and voice acting doesnt count.

AoT on the other hand is made in 2011, so really the criticism seems to come more from how blatant Japan is about their bias in the now. America does it, but they atleast try from time to time and we see the backlash when some thing suspect goes on. Japan is still mostly Japanese on paper, though. They havent had the need to not be jingoist or racist since there isnt a significant minority to push back. The half japanese bit is a thing, though. Especially if that other half is Korean, jeesh.

Oh, and Barbossa should be of spanish ancestry by the name.

[John Cribati]

Those are kind of bad examples. Besides Irish people not being considered fully white by most Americans until some time after the mid 1900s,

... They're considered white now. And he's still a main character of the movie.

the superhero movies are based on 60+ year old franchises from a less inclusive period,

And yet, whenever someone even jokingly suggests that we make one of the superheroes not a white person, there's backlash and racial slurs and references to Shaft all over the damn place.

Avatar is Dances With Wolves,

I don't see how that makes it a bad example.

Star Wars is simply staying in line with the characters of the original three which are 70-80s movies

I don't see how that makes it a bad example.

and voice acting doesnt count.

Depends on who you ask.

AoT on the other hand is made in 2011, so really the criticism seems to come more from how blatant Japan is about their bias in the now. America does it, but they atleast try from time to time and we see the backlash when some thing suspect goes on. Japan is still mostly Japanese on paper, though. They havent had the need to not be jingoist or racist since there isnt a significant minority to push back. The half japanese bit is a thing, though. Especially if that other half is Korean, jeesh.

Okay, I can see how there is a sort of bias with Mikasa, the only Asian, being the best of the new recruits. Fine. I just... can't see anything wrong with that?

I mean, when an American film makes the Almighty White guy the hero, non-white people in the story will either be Magical People of Color who give him spirit visions or whatever, or else downtrodden, oppressed people that will be freed from their bonds with the aid of Mighty Whitey. (See: Game of Thrones Season 3 Finale).

Meanwhile, while Mikasa is portrayed as the most competent, it isn't done by dragging anyone else down. Every named character- most of whom are white with European names- has their moment to shine. Plus, I'm side-eyeing the implication that making her the best at something is racist.

Oh, and Barbossa should be of spanish ancestry by the name.

Spanish as in Spain, as in European and following European ideals.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Oh, and Barbossa should be of spanish ancestry by the name.

His accent and loyalties as a privateer be English, matey. I'd also call him a secondary character.

Also, I think it's meant to be a corruption of Barbarossa (Italian for "red beard" and frequently seen as an epithet or nickname in other languages) rather than the Portuguese/Galician Barbosa, but I have no source on that beyond my own head. Also the Wikipedia page for "Barbarossa", but that's Wikipedia.

Oh, and his first name is the very English Hector. Well, very English transliteration of the Greek Ector, anyway.

[FatJose]

@Herpestidae

Time matters. Almost all those movies are inherently whitist becausemthey are either based on a whitecentric property or have to keep cohesion. Darth Vader needs to look like his offspring could reasonably look like Luke and Leia.

I'm not going to act like some historian and explain what "white" is or how it factors in to things. They are white now isnt an argument.

First off the main reason the list is bad, and I cant believe I didnt type it down before, is that it isnt relevant. Mikasa is not the main character so the comparison doesnt fit. She is superior because she is Japanese specifically, and in anime almost all exotic heroes are in some way Japanese.
In these American movies Nick Fury doesnt have to mention being half German. And many supporting cast members in those top movies are identified as specifically non-white without needing to have a caveat about their convenient mixed heritage or that theyre one of the good ones. Is America racist? Yeah. But I'd like to think the majority of people who have an issue with this Japanese obnoxiousness have the same problem with racism in American movies and not just when it is perceived as some how a slight against their own kind. I'm just as annoyed by the "black guy being the first casualty" or "whiteman saving everybody" as I am of "this ethnic is cool but dont worry he's one of us sort of."
"Everyone does it" isnt an excuse. In the same vein, I'm getting tired of this series for its awful pacing and complete flipping of what the show's genre and themes were. Does this happen often in fiction? Yes. That isnt a reason for me to like it.

And black Spiderman is stupid. Not that I particularly cared one way or the other. Also, they made Nick Fury black...HE WAS SHAFT.

EDIT: Hector is a spanish name too

[Nerd-o-rama]

I've never heard of black Spider-Man before, but I will defend Miles Morales to the end of whichever numbered Earth Ultimate Marvel happens on (which also happens to be the origin of Samuel L. Fury).

Anyway, I never said everyone doing it made it any better, I just think it seems weird to pick on one particular show from one particular country for it and then make two dozen excuses for ten things from a different country.

[Terraoblivion]

I'd like to point out that there are a lot of major anime with decidedly non-Japanese protagonists and heroes. Like most Gundam, Cowboy Bebop, Tiger and Bunny, Read or Die the TV, Trigun and these are just ones I can think off of the top of my head that are actually set on and around Earth. Gundam is especially relevant given how the highest grossing anime series ever is the original Gundam 0079 and Gundam as a whole is hugely influential.

Also, honestly, Mikasa doesn't really matter that much in the grand scheme of things in AoT. Nor is she really the most amazingly skilled person ever, in it. The inner circle of the Legion are all more skilled than her and quite firmly white. Not just that, Armin's planning is pretty consistently more important than her skill and [spoilers] mean that a whole lot of other characters get to show off more than her. If anything, she needs to be that good just to stay relevant in the story.

I'd also say that America's obsession with white, male leads is a lot more problematic than Japan's preference for Japanese leads. Most Japanese fiction takes place in Japan which is extremely ethnically homogenous, to the point where a good chunk of the ethnic minorities they do have end up with Japanese names. So you'd expect most leads to end up Japanese by virtue of it being what most people there are and being anything else would be noteworthy. On the other hand, American fiction is set in a very ethnically heterogenous country and yet the leads almost always end up representing the privileged ethnic group. It's not like newer American properties are all that more likely to have black, Hispanic, Asian, middle eastern or Indian leads than they were twenty years ago. For that matter, white Europeans not seeking to become American or living before the US existed are that common as protagonists either and when they do show up, they tend to be British. So, yes, I think it's worse in the case of the US.

[FatJose]

I've never heard of black Spider-Man before, but I will defend Miles Morales to the end of whichever numbered Earth Ultimate Marvel happens on (which also happens to be the origin of Samuel L. Fury).

Anyway, I never said everyone doing it made it any better, I just think it seems weird to pick on one particular show from one particular country for it and then make two dozen excuses for ten things from a different country.

I thought the nitpick was about Japan's attitudes about race in genral. Who was making excuses for what? I was just pointing out extenuating circumstances. I think a better more recent example would be Lone Ranger. It took the original series and changed a lot if only to add more racism. You know who wasnt a mystic and played by a person of matching race? Tonto. Until the movie.

Also, while I find Miles Morales a shameless token to get the brown people's attention (even shamelessly adding that he would be bisexual if by popular demand...instead of, you know, making a solid character who just happens to be bi) I think the idea people had was that Donald Glover would be Peter Parker.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Who was making excuses for what? I was just pointing out extenuating circumstances.

Those are the same thing.

EDIT: And thankfully no one's actually going and seeing The Lone Ranger, to my knowledge. Although I think that movie's less the fault of the usual Hollywood machine and more due to Johnny Depp going full-on A-Scotsman-in-Egypt crazy.

[FatJose]

Those are the same thing.

EDIT: And thankfully no one's actually going and seeing The Lone Ranger, to my knowledge. Although I think that movie's less the fault of the usual Hollywood machine and more due to Johnny Depp going full-on A-Scotsman-in-Egypt crazy.

Are they? Comic book characters made before the civil rights movement are white. How could this be? the main 4 are white and the last two were used more as a way to link the rest of the movies together. They pushed by using black fury specifically because, well Sam is awesome either way, but also he isnt white and they give him plenty of presense over just playing Where's Waldo like most minorities. There are plenty of plans down the pipe for the black characters to start showing up. Hell, the Shield series sneak peek was centered entirely around who J.August Richard is playing as and they already revealed Falcon for 2.

I just dont see it, I guess. They're better reasons to shrug off some thing seemingly being racist than "All characters need a certain level Japanese to be eligible" since its a bit harder to explain those away.

@Terraoblivion
Those are all great series. They also are series that owe being great to not falling into every crappy cliche or atleast using them without feeling like theyre jus going over a checklist while creating some new ones.

EDIT: Also, I got a ways through 13 and I just couldnt keep on. I put some time into this, got my hopes up and I am pretty doubtful I am going to like this series based on where it seems to be going. The rock scene kind of clinched it for me. I've never seen so many rational human being suddenly become lemmings just to rack an even higher kill count. At a certain point my onlyreaction to the deaths of characters was "good".

[LaZodiac]

So, changing the topic to the manga...

Spoilers:

Spoiler

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Anyone got any theories about The Sasquatch, Ymir, and the "Human Titans".

I'm thinking Sasquatch MAY be Eren's Dad, and he was turning people into Titans to test how things are going. Ymir is a "natural" Titan, ie a Titan made before the series started.

As for the titans, "Human" or otherwise. Every Titan is basically a mecha, in my eyes. The body parts are super light so as to allow for their extreme movements.

[t209]

I mean, when an American film makes the Almighty White guy the hero, non-white people in the story will either be Magical People of Color who give him spirit visions or whatever, or else downtrodden, oppressed people that will be freed from their bonds with the aid of Mighty Whitey. (See: Game of Thrones Season 3 Finale).

Meanwhile, while Mikasa is portrayed as the most competent, it isn't done by dragging anyone else down. Every named character- most of whom are white with European names- has their moment to shine. Plus, I'm side-eyeing the implication that making her the best at something is racist.



Spanish as in Spain, as in European and following European ideals.

That would probably deconstructed in Season 4 if you read feast of crows and new asociaf books since daenarys wasn't that bright on leading an army.
Plus most characters are Germans or have Germanic names in AoT.
On origins of titans (manga spoilers)

Spoiler

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so humans weren't at Ww2 stage when titans rise, like my the dream I had a month ago.

[John Cribati]

That would probably deconstructed in Season 4 if you read feast of crows and new asociaf books since daenarys wasn't that bright on leading an army.

That doesn't change the fact that the series ended with a pasty white woman being celebrated and called “mother” (or whatever that word was in the other language) by a sea of brown people.

[Kato]

That doesn't change the fact that the series ended with a pasty white woman being celebrated and called “mother” (or whatever that word was in the other language) by a sea of brown people.

It's kind of weird you would complain about the show not the book the story is based on...

But those people have every right to be thankful towards her, don't they?
Not saying I'm not thinking that white people get a lot more heroism than others in... many media but I tend to try to just ignore skin color if possible.

[John Cribati]

It's kind of weird you would complain about the show not the book the story is based on...

I, like a good number of people who watch the show, did not read the books. And from what I hear, the show is a fairly accurate portrayal of the events in the books anyway. Plus, whatever facts come up in the books to "justify" the scene does not mean the scene didn't happen.

PS: As a person of color, I cannot ignore something like the racial backgrounds of the characters in the media I consume.

[Nerd-o-rama]

The handy thing about reading the Game of Thrones books is you eventually realize that no one is portrayed as a good or admirable person, regardless of skin color, name, worldview, whatever. They're all either *******s or dead through their own stupidity.

Only reason I'd root for Dany is she's got the best odds of killing the most Westerosian politicians.

[Flickerdart]

Only reason I'd route for Dany is she's got the best odds of killing the most Westerosian politicians.

I'm not so sure about that - Cat of the Canals is a good contender for that honour too.

[BRC]

Okay, so what exactly is Levi's rank? I could swear it was "Corporal", but in the latest episode he has a squad and is suddenly going by Captain (Which makes more sense considering he is the Red Baron of titan killing).

[noparlpf]

Okay, so what exactly is Levi's rank? I could swear it was "Corporal", but in the latest episode he has a squad and is suddenly going by Captain (Which makes more sense considering he is the Red Baron of titan killing).

He's typically called "heichou", which means Lance Corporal in the Japanese military rank system.
Here's a page with a translator's note from one of the scanlation sites.

[nyarlathotep]

I, like a good number of people who watch the show, did not read the books. And from what I hear, the show is a fairly accurate portrayal of the events in the books anyway. Plus, whatever facts come up in the books to "justify" the scene does not mean the scene didn't happen.

Okay I am not trying to claim that scene didn't have racial insensitivity problems. However I think what Kato and the others would say justifies it in the books is that there the slaves of Yonkai are a racially diverse rainbow of colors. Which I guess makes it better, but the whole slavers bay thing always structure me as weird and not terribly well thought out economically.