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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default [PF] Alchemist Guides and the lack thereof

    As was brought up recently in another thread, there really isn't a solid Alchemist optimization guide is an opening for a new and improved alchemist guide. I am notoriously bad at finishing projects I start, so I would like to enlist the aid of several fine denizens of the playground to co-author or at least aid in the creation of a "crowd-sourced" alchemist guide.

    Most importantly: Is anyone willing to help create an alchemist guide? If not, the rest of this post is meaningless.

    If there is interest, here's some points of discussion or ways people could help:

    • Creation of a suitable/unified rating system.
    • Evaluating races, including favored class bonuses and racial feats
    • Evaluating discoveries
    • Evaluating feats
    • Evaluating skills
    • Evaluating mutagens/other class features
    • Evaluating archetypes
    • Evaluating prestige classes
    • Evaluating extracts
    • Evaluating third-party material
    • Evaluating gear
    • Snarky/amusing/witty comments
    • Silly/awesome/interesting pictures for the guide
    • Evaluating stat weights
    • Creating example builds
    • FAQ of common rules questions that apply to alchemists
    Last edited by Novawurmson; 2013-07-06 at 06:54 PM.
    Crazed Monk avatar by Elrond.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CTrees View Post
    Knowledge (local) being trained only, and not a class skill for many classes, means that your average human may well not be able to identify other humans! This may explain the exceptional quantity of half-human hybrids.

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    Default Re: [PF] Alchemist Guides and the lack thereof

    I'm no optimizer, but I can help with basic input on races, archetypes, class features, and such.
    Spako Highclaws by Ceika.

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    Default Re: [PF] Alchemist Guides and the lack thereof

    There should really be at least two guides, one for bombers and one for melee alchemists (or even just Vivisectionist specifically), just as Ogre had. You can try to do a hybrid, but you're better off not doing so, and they are completely different classes, effectively.

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    Default Re: [PF] Alchemist Guides and the lack thereof

    What's wrong with Ogre's? It has the essentials - ratings for the in-class options, discussion on variables like race/items/feats, and even discusses both the melee and ranged alchemist paths. He even posted an updated one after Ultimate Magic.

    I'm not against a new one being made, but I don't think it's fair to say there isn't a solid guide out there already.
    Sandharrow by Chris the Pontifex
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    First, please don't start threads with ideas you don't support just to see what reactions you get. That's almost the definition of trolling.

    Second, the whole "blue text" thing is not a forum rule or even a recommended procedure. If someone wants to do it in their own posts, fine, but everyone should stop telling people that they "need to" or "should have" posted in blue just because they're being sarcastic/ironic/whatever.

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    Default Re: [PF] Alchemist Guides and the lack thereof

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    There should really be at least two guides, one for bombers and one for melee alchemists (or even just Vivisectionist specifically), just as Ogre had. You can try to do a hybrid, but you're better off not doing so, and they are completely different classes, effectively.
    Definitely. At least a discussion of a "Bruce-Banner" style Str-based alchemist vs. Dex based melee (Vivisectionist) vs. bomber vs. support alchemist. I think you can squeeze a ranged non-bomber in there as well, with a little creativity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    What's wrong with Ogre's? It has the essentials - ratings for the in-class options, discussion on variables like race/items/feats, and even discusses both the melee and ranged alchemist paths. He even posted an updated one after Ultimate Magic.

    I'm not against a new one being made, but I don't think it's fair to say there isn't a solid guide out there already.
    It's a fair point, but there are a number of reasons I'd like to make a new guide:
    -Visibility: A guide on the forums is more likely to be used by people on the forums and encourage people on the forums to play that class. Look at any of the recruiting threads on the forums; I guarantee that at least 50% of the builds of the characters being posted are based off optimization guides.
    -Thoroughness: Ogre's guide does a good job covering the basics, but I think we can bring more in-depth analysis of the class.
    -Variety: Simply the fact that we are different people means that we will find different character goals, build options, and optimization levels more appealing. We can give a wider variety of choices and opinions to budding alchemists.
    -Community: I feel like the PF optimization community is still lagging behind the 3.5 optimization community; making more guides and provoking more discussion is one of the main ways to raise the standard, in my opinion.
    -Organization and readability: I think we can make a guide friendlier to the reader.
    Crazed Monk avatar by Elrond.

    Tier System for Classes | Why Each Class is in its Tier
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTrees View Post
    Knowledge (local) being trained only, and not a class skill for many classes, means that your average human may well not be able to identify other humans! This may explain the exceptional quantity of half-human hybrids.

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    Default Re: [PF] Alchemist Guides and the lack thereof

    Rating system? Here's my suggestion. No reason to get fancy.

    Great/Essential
    Good
    Average/Circumstantial
    Bad
    Very bad/Rarely Useful


    *starts looking at races*
    Just so we're all clear, the most important stat for almost everything (#of Bombs per day, extracts, Dicovery DCs) alchemists do is Int , so expect that to play highly into any recommendation. With the only exception being the effect of mutagens, any race that gets a penalty to Int will automatically be bad (Orc) or very bad (anything else).

    For the Bomb Thrower
    Core Races:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Dwarf:
    Elf:
    Gnome: No bonus to int, but bonus bombs per day from favored class
    Half-Elf:
    Half-Orc:
    Halfling:
    Human: but not as good as the halfbloods or the elf, IMO.


    Featured Races:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Aasimar: They do nothing to help you, and not thing to hurt you, either.
    Catfolk: As above
    Dhampir:
    Drow:
    Fetchling:
    Goblin:
    Hobgoblin: They can get the same favored class bonus that gnomes get, for some reason.
    Ifrit: At least they have a decent favored class bonus, with no penalty to int.
    Kobolds: Even with their favored class bonus. No.
    Orc: Orcs smash things, not make bombs.
    Oreads
    Ratfolk: Finally a bonus to int.
    Sylph:
    Tengu
    Tiefling
    Undine


    For the Mutagen User
    Core Races:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Dwarf:
    Elf:
    Gnome:
    Half-Elf:
    Half-Orc: Rated above the half elf because of better racial abilities (ferocity, darkvision, weapon prof., etc.)
    Halfling:
    Human:


    Featured Races:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Aasimar:
    Catfolk:
    Dhampir: Only because of an interesting favored class ability.
    Drow: As Dhampir
    Fetchling
    Goblin: More useful if you're going to be a vivisectionist. Avoid otherwise.
    Hobgoblin: Very useful as a vivisectionist, with bonuses to dex and con scores and stealth checks.
    Ifrit
    Kobolds: Can't be red enough
    Orc: Penalty to int, but a +4 to strength makes them not the absolute worst choice for a mutagen using alchemist.
    Oreads
    Ratfolk
    Sylph
    Tengu
    Tiefling
    Undine


    Feel free to disagree with ratings. It was a cursory look. I wanted to get some discussion started on the topic. Biggest issue I had was finding a really great option for either build. There just isn't a really astounding pick for alchemist like there is for other classes (tielfling/samsaran/elf wizards, half-elf/human Oracle/Sorc) that I could see.
    Last edited by Squirrel_Dude; 2013-07-05 at 12:30 PM.
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    Default Re: [PF] Alchemist Guides and the lack thereof

    Quote Originally Posted by Squirrel_Dude View Post
    Rating system? Here's my suggestion. No reason to get fancy.

    Great/Essential
    Good
    Average/Circumstantial
    Bad
    Very bad/Rarely Useful
    Seconded for the rating system

    Just so we're all clear, the most important stat for almost everything (#of Bombs per day, extracts, Dicovery DCs) alchemists do is Int , so expect that to play highly into any recommendation. With the only exception being the effect of mutagens, any race that gets a penalty to Int will automatically be bad (Orc) or very bad (anything else).
    I think Con and Dex should be next in line for stat weight for most alchemists, Con for the obvious health and Fort saves, Dex for Initiative, AC, Reflex saves, and ranged attacks. Wis is nice for will saves and spot checks. Str and Cha are mostly useless unless going for a Str-melee build, Cha if a party face is needed.

    Small size is nice for bomb throwers (bonus on attack rolls and AC).

    I'll make notes where my conclusions differ.

    For the Bomb Thrower
    Core Races:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Dwarf: Hardy is good, bonus Natural Armor from mutagens is good, but it's so hard to justify the lack of Int bonus.
    Elf: Bonus to Perception is nice, proficiency with longbows could be interesting for a ranged build I'm considering. Bonus against enchantment is nice when you have a low Will save. Bonus formulae are excellent. Stabbing Shot, Elven Accuracy, and Breadth of Experience can all be useful.
    Gnome: No bonus to int, but bonus bombs per day from favored class. Saboteur isn't awful, but it isn't anything to write home about.
    Half-Elf: Dual Minded is solid and Ancestral Arms can be put to good use for a melee build. Bramble Brewer is interesting.
    Half-Orc: Bonus to bomb damage is OK. It seems it would apply on splash damage, too. Numerous martial weapons able to be picked up for the martial alchemist.
    Halfling:
    Human: but not as good as the halfbloods or the elf, IMO. Bonus formulae is powerful, but you can get that from being an elf.


    Featured Races:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Aasimar: They do nothing to help you, and not thing to hurt you, either.
    Catfolk: As above
    Dhampir:
    Drow:
    Fetchling:
    Goblin:
    Hobgoblin: They can get the same favored class bonus that gnomes get, for some reason.
    Ifrit: At least they have a decent favored class bonus, with no penalty to int.
    Kobolds: Even with their favored class bonus. No.
    Orc: Orcs smash things, not make bombs.
    Oreads
    Ratfolk: Finally a bonus to int.
    Sylph:
    Tengu
    Tiefling: Bonuses to Int and Dex and no penalty to Con? Bonus to bomb damage? Heck, yes! Drop Fiendish Sorcery for Prehensile Tail. Blinding Sneak Attack is great for Vivisectionist.
    Undine


    For the Mutagen User
    Core Races:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Dwarf:
    Elf:
    Gnome:
    Half-Elf: As a note, Ancestral Arms means the Half-Elf can pick up one weapon it wants.
    Half-Orc: Rated above the half elf because of better racial abilities (ferocity, darkvision, weapon prof., etc.)
    Halfling:
    Human:


    Featured Races:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Aasimar:
    Catfolk:
    Dhampir: Only because of an interesting favored class ability.
    Drow: As Dhampir
    Fetchling
    Goblin: More useful if you're going to be a vivisectionist. Avoid otherwise.
    Hobgoblin: Very useful as a vivisectionist, with bonuses to dex and con scores and stealth checks.
    Ifrit
    Kobolds: Can't be red enough
    Orc: Penalty to int, but a +4 to strength makes them not the absolute worst choice for a mutagen using alchemist.
    Oreads
    Ratfolk
    Sylph
    Tengu
    Tiefling: I feel like if the alternate racial benefits (like Oni-Spawn) are in play, Tieflings could move up here.
    Undine


    There just isn't a really astounding pick for alchemist like there is for other classes (tielfling/samsaran/elf wizards, half-elf/human Oracle/Sorc) that I could see.
    I feel like Tiefling bomb-thrower is pretty awesome, tbh. Maybe not as good as a samsaran wizard being able to pick up cleric spells, but awesome in its own way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTrees View Post
    Knowledge (local) being trained only, and not a class skill for many classes, means that your average human may well not be able to identify other humans! This may explain the exceptional quantity of half-human hybrids.

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    Default Re: [PF] Alchemist Guides and the lack thereof

    Yes, favored class to bomb damage adds to splash damage; that's what makes it good, really... Also, I strongly disagree that Stabbing Shot is useful for...anyone, ever.

    For a bomber, int is most important, then dex and con. Charisma is a total dump stat, str is somewhat of a dump stat, just not too low (or use Ant Haul and muleback cords). Wis is not important but covers your weak save.
    For a melee alchemist, str or dex (whichever you attack with) or wisdom (if you can get guided enhancement allowed) is most important, then kind of a tie between Con, Int, and Dex (if it's not your attack stat already). Charisma is the total dump stat; str is somewhat if not using it, wisdom is as w/ bomber.

    For the Bomb Thrower
    Core Races:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Dwarf: Solid race, but doesn't boost any of the most important stats.
    Elf: Good stat bonuses, con penalty hurts a bit.
    Gnome: Small size is sadly the most useful thing here. This should've been the best bomber race!
    Half-Elf: Bramble Brewer is decent; main reason H-E is good is Paragon Surge. You can't abuse it to smithereens like an actual (spontaneous) caster, but having general, combat, and extra discovery feats on demand is still super helpful.
    Half-Orc: Bonus to bomb damage and darkvision; can get luck bonus to saves, too.
    Halfling: If your DM allows Ogre's idea of warslinger to chuck bombs via the sling for 50 ft range increment...not a bad choice.
    Human: Strong choice for any class; can steal other racial unique stuff with Racial Heritage feat (like paragon surge use).


    Featured Races:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Aasimar: None of the variants give Int *and* dex or con, but you also lose nothing...
    Catfolk
    Dhampir: Base race SUCKS; variants can be very good. Mutagen duration boost is handy to anyone who loses Persistent Mutagen (like beastmorphs).
    Drow: Mutagen duration boost can't make up for awful stats.
    Fetchling
    Goblin: Stats could be more useful, but don't hurt. Access to Rocket Bomb is the major draw; it works very nicely w/ the cloud effects you should be using as a bomber.
    Hobgoblin
    Ifrit: Bomb damage is nice, but better races have that.
    Kobolds
    Orc
    Oreads
    Ratfolk: Small race with perfect stats; archetype is interesting but probably not a good idea.
    Sylph: Elf that can't use reduce person and lacks all the elf-related options. Yay?
    Tengu
    Tiefling: Perfect stats; tail to hold stuff; boosts bomb damage; can even get some natural armor.
    Undine


    For the Mutagen User
    Core Races:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Dwarf: Great for wis-users; Orange for anyone else.
    Elf: For dex-users; Red for others.
    Gnome
    Half-Elf: Again, Paragon Surge. Ancestral Arms can be useful.
    Half-Orc: Solid option if stuff like Agile and guided weapon aren't available.
    Halfling: For a dex-user; Red for others.
    Human: Strong choice for any class; can steal other racial unique stuff with Racial Heritage feat (like paragon surge use).


    Featured Races:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Aasimar: Depends on your attack stat. Garuda-blooded gets dex/wis for guided weapon users; others are less useful. Can count as humanoid via a variant, so Enlarge Person is still an option.
    Catfolk
    Dhampir: Base race SUCKS; variants can be very good. Mutagen duration boost is handy to anyone who loses Persistent Mutagen (like beastmorphs).
    Drow: Mutagen duration boost can't make up for awful stats.
    Fetchling
    Goblin: Excellent for dex-users, terribad for anyone else.
    Hobgoblin
    Ifrit: Just terrible.
    Kobolds
    Orc: I guess +4 str is kind of a big deal, I'd still like to make this orange...
    Oreads
    Ratfolk: Great stats for dex-users.
    Sylph
    Tengu
    Tiefling: Great options for dex- and wis-users, Oni is ok for str- users. Tail and natural armor again; maw or claw for (added) natural weapons. Blinding Sneak Attack is pretty good.
    Undine

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    Default Re: [PF] Alchemist Guides and the lack thereof

    Orcs probably also get pushed up to green (and I'll admit, it's only barely there) because of ferocity. In terms of low-level survivability, ferocity is awesome, especially when you have the ability to heal yourself like an alchemist does.
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    Default Re: [PF] Alchemist Guides and the lack thereof

    Quote Originally Posted by Squirrel_Dude View Post
    Orcs probably also get pushed up to green (and I'll admit, it's only barely there) because of ferocity. In terms of low-level survivability, ferocity is awesome, especially when you have the ability to heal yourself like an alchemist does.
    I remember seeing a simulation about how good ferocity is...Here it is. Basically, an Orc without ferocity wins vs. a level 1 fighter around 30% percent of the time, while an orc with ferocity wins the same fight about 60% of the time. Level 1 combat is already pretty swingy, but it's basically adding your Con to HP (that's Con, not Con modifier).
    Crazed Monk avatar by Elrond.

    Tier System for Classes | Why Each Class is in its Tier
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTrees View Post
    Knowledge (local) being trained only, and not a class skill for many classes, means that your average human may well not be able to identify other humans! This may explain the exceptional quantity of half-human hybrids.

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    Default Re: [PF] Alchemist Guides and the lack thereof

    Ferocity is also a great way to turn "dying, and left alone for still active threats" to "dead." *shrug*

    Yeah, you can heal, but Alchemist isn't terribly good at in-battle healing; past very low levels a cure spell just doesn't cut it. The best part of ferocity is being able to trade it out for something awesome, like +1 luck to saves, or a bite attack. Neither of which full Orcs can legally do.

    As for melee alchemists in general...

    Str-based: The typical build. Doesn't require any special items or feats to function. Suffers from the worst MAD of any alchemist build at all, and buffing str w/ mutagen hurts int, which is annoying. Can make best use of the melee buff extracts, especially Enlarge Person and Monstrous Physique (to turn into a Calikang for lots of arms/attacks). Most likely to 2H a weapon for the added str bonus. Once pounce is available (Beastmorph), may switch to natural attacks or simply add them in. Even at low levels, may add a bite attack to the 2H weapon routine.

    Dex-based: Needs Weapon Finesse and Agile property to function, and a poor choice for low level games. Often will be natural/unarmed based, since you can put Agile on an Amulet of Mighty Fists without a +1 first and affect every weapon/attack, making it *far* more economical than enhancing a weapon. The least MAD of the melee alchemists. Many typical melee buffs to gain reach and such will actively hurt you. Mutagen lowering wis hurts, but is less painful than for str- or wis- users.

    Wis-based: Relies on the Guided enhancement to function at all, has an even rougher time at low levels than dex-based. However, is probably the strongest choice later on and doesn't even cost a feat. Even more likely to be unarmed/natural based, as w/ dex-based above. Most likely to mix unarmed iteratives w/ 2ndary natural attacks and/or TWF, thanks to not getting half wis to damage on the off-hand and 2ndary attacks. Because PF fears bonuses to two physical stats but loves physical/mental combos, tends to have the most # of good races to choose from. Mutagen will hurt dex, which is at least as annoying as the str-based guy's hurting int.

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    Default Re: [PF] Alchemist Guides and the lack thereof

    Healing while you're down may not be very effective past low levels, but a higher downed alchemist can also turn invisible, shadow walk away, turn to dust, or burrow underground, followed by healing himself once he is out of harm's way. And Heal itself is also on the alchemist list, which is efficient enough to use in combat.
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    First, please don't start threads with ideas you don't support just to see what reactions you get. That's almost the definition of trolling.

    Second, the whole "blue text" thing is not a forum rule or even a recommended procedure. If someone wants to do it in their own posts, fine, but everyone should stop telling people that they "need to" or "should have" posted in blue just because they're being sarcastic/ironic/whatever.

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    Default Re: [PF] Alchemist Guides and the lack thereof

    I too would like more guidance on how to make a Bramble Brewer/battlefield controler. Ogre really only covers direct bomb damage or physical damage. Master Chymist/Cognitigen might be good to explore too.
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    Default Re: [PF] Alchemist Guides and the lack thereof

    How good is really a WIS based melee alchemist? I've never built or seen one, but it seems a bit counter intuitive. You have to use a cognatogen tu buff your wisdom, but that doesn't improve your CON and lowers your DEX. Do you use mutagen and cognatogen?

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    Default Re: [PF] Alchemist Guides and the lack thereof

    You can't use a mutagen and cognatogen together as far as I know... And honestly, I had just thought of it as a possibility when I started writing up my races review. Cognatogen does introduce a lot of issues, between needing to spend a discovery or taking an archetype that is good but might not stack with others you want, to the int and cha boosts of greater/grand being useless, to the lasting ability damage cognatogens do.

    Still, it has some nice appeal. Again, you get the replacement to attacks and damage in one item, and you can have as many 2ndary natural attacks and (unarmed, if you car about $$) two weapon fighting as you want and still get full modifier to damage. And will is by far the alchemist's Achilles' Heel, much more so than the other saves or AC. I don't know, it might not actually be the best option at higher levels after all, but it's still quite worthwhile.

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    Default Re: [PF] Alchemist Guides and the lack thereof

    Note: We need to theorycraft if a poison build could ever be viable.

    Getting a start on discoveries:

    Acid Bomb - Acid is less commonly resisted than fire, plus it does an extra 1d6 damage a round later. Not must-have, but not bad.

    Alchemical Simulacrum - It's a fancy little scout. Note that it costs 100gp per HD, making it significantly cheaper than a regular casting of the spell. Required for Doppelganger Simulacrum, which is better.

    Alchemical Zombie - More expensive than animate dead, and takes about an hour longer. On the other hand, it can be used an indefinite number of times as long as you have money and time, so you can build quite an army if those things are in abundance.

    Blinding Bomb - Blind is a nasty status condition, especially if there's a Rogue in your party to support. Note that it lasts an entire minute.

    Bottled Ooze - A CR 6 ooze does not equal a 6th level extract slot.

    Breath Weapon Bomb - Definitely not the first thing to pick up, but the fact that it doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity adds value. Too bad it can't be mixed with another bomb modifier (but it can be mixed with Dispelling Bombs - see below) Nice for the person who really just wanted to play a dragonfire adept.

    Celestial Poisons - Ah, ravages - I mean, goody-goody poisons. Too bad poisons aren't that good to begin with.

    Chameleon - It's a flat bonus on stealth checks. If you want to be sneaky, take it once you have room for it. It's a better ratio of feat/bonus than Skill Focus (Stealth) at least.

    Change Alignment - I'm leaving this unjudged. I feel like there's some really fun use for this somewhere.

    Cognatogen - You have bonuses to damage from Int. This gives bonus Int. Do the math.

    Combine Extracts - This feels like it could be useful, but +2 might be too harsh. Needs theorycrafting.

    Concentrate Poison - It's pretty cool, but poisons are mostly not worth it.

    Concussive Bomb - Sonic is almost never resisted, but you are taking a DPS hit for the benefit. Deafened on a Fort save just screams "Throw me at the arcane spellcaster!"

    Confusion Bomb - There's...no save listed. Sweet, sweet Desna, there's no save listed.

    Deadly Excretions - Grippli-only. If you're Grippli anyway, this is decent, but Grippli isn't the best race for the alchemist to begin with.

    Defoliant Bomb - I guess if you're fighting an army of Druids, this is pretty cool. Otherwise, skip it.

    Delayed Bomb - I feel like this has uses for a clever alchemist, but it's definitely not a must-have-immediately.

    Demolition Charge - Pretty cool for an explosive safe-cracker, I guess?

    Dilution - Create more cost-efficient potions, but potions aren't cost-efficient to begin with.

    Dispelling Bomb - Trade bombs for dispel magic attempts. Note that it does not do damage when dispelling. On the other hand, it can be mixed with other bomb effects, as it lacks an asterisk; combine with Breath Weapon bomb for an 15ft cone dispel magic.

    Doppelganger Simulacrum - For DMs: This is absolutely perfect for introducing an alchemist boss. They fight his simulacrums at low levels, building up to the big fight. Above level 10, it's also cheaper than Alchemical Simulacrum. For players: This can be a great get-out-of-jail-free card.

    Elixir of Life - It's a green mushroom. It's a red balloon/one hundred bananas. It's a Guardian Angel. It's pretty expensive, but it's pretty incredible.

    Enhance Potion - It's decent. It makes up a little bit for how non-cost efficient potions are. Note that you don't have to be the one to make the potion, or even have the spell on your class list. If your DM likes handing out potions like they're going out of style, it's even better.

    Eternal Potion - Permanency for the price of a potion is pretty useful. Keep a rounds per level buff going all day.

    Explosive Bomb - Bonus damage, bonus AoE, plus a fire that doesn't go out unless they take a full-round action to roll around. Pretty nifty.

    Explosive Missile - I really like the concept of this discovery, but I don't think it'll pan out past level...6 or so. For a level 4-5 one-shot campaign, it hits its stride. Even so, you're probably better going with Rapid Shot and Vivisectionist.

    Extend Potion - It's really not that great, but there are some interesting things to do with this. The main catches are cash flow and time to spend crafting potions. If your party can't wait for you to brew potions, or you're not getting much gold, it's definitely a skip.

    Fast Bombs - If you are a bomb alchemist, you need this. Bonus bombs per round based on BAB. Bonus bombs per round for haste. Bonus bombs per round from rapid shot. Bombs bombs bombs.

    Feral Mutagen - Rating assumes a Str-based build. Three natural attacks at level 2 is nothing to sneer at; even if you ignore the claws and use a two-handed weapon, the bite is still good.

    Fire Brand - Melee weapon discovery for goblins only. But wait, the Vivisectionist...! Nope, it requires bombs. Skip it.

    Force Bomb - Force damage is almost never resisted. Possible trip is a nice bonus.

    Frost Bomb - Cold is still a fairly common immunity, but staggered is a powerful status condition. Good for denying Rogue-types their full attack

    Grand Cognatogen - It's a +8 to Intelligence...what more do you want in a discovery? Oh, you're a melee? Hold that thought, because we've also got...

    Grand Mutagen - It's a +8 to a physical ability score of your choice. Everyone happy now? Good.

    Grease Bomb - Grease is a nasty spell, but this doesn't have all of the same utility. Still decent for area control at low levels, but at level 6, flight is starting to come into play.

    Greater Plague Bomb - Waiting to review Plague Bomb

    Greater Alchemical Simulacrum - Doppelganger Simulacrum is cooler, but Simulacrum is still a pretty awesome spell to have around.

    Greater Cognatogen - Raw stat increases goooood.

    Greater Mutagen - As above. Stat bonuses that stack with everything.

    Healing Touch - Waiting to review Spontaneous Healing

    Holy Bombs - Comma, Batman! I guess there's some benefit if you've really grown to love your Frost Bombs and then get pitted against a ton of evil outsiders with cold resistance.

    Immolation Bomb - Fun fact: It's the only alchemist discovery that requires an odd alchemist level, so you'll need to pick it up with a feat if you want it ASAP. Technically, it's a DPS boost (instead of, say 3d6+Int, it's 1d6+Int+1d6+Int+1d6+Int=3d6+Intx3)...as long as it actually burns for several rounds. Most combat sadly doesn't go much beyond four rounds or so, so you're unlikely to see much actual benefit.

    I'll leave it at there for now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTrees View Post
    Knowledge (local) being trained only, and not a class skill for many classes, means that your average human may well not be able to identify other humans! This may explain the exceptional quantity of half-human hybrids.

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    Default Re: [PF] Alchemist Guides and the lack thereof

    For any future suggestions, I would recommend bolding the name of the option being described. It will make it much easier to read the cyan against the bold text. The other way would be to switch it from cyan, blue, green, orange, red to blue, green, black, orange, red
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    Default Re: [PF] Alchemist Guides and the lack thereof

    Quote Originally Posted by Squirrel_Dude View Post
    For any future suggestions, I would recommend bolding the name of the option being described. It will make it much easier to read the cyan against the bold text. The other way would be to switch it from cyan, blue, green, orange, red to blue, green, black, orange, red
    Dangit, man, you were the one who suggested cyan!

    How about switching cyan to purple?
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTrees View Post
    Knowledge (local) being trained only, and not a class skill for many classes, means that your average human may well not be able to identify other humans! This may explain the exceptional quantity of half-human hybrids.

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    Default Re: [PF] Alchemist Guides and the lack thereof

    Maybe. I liked Cyan because it made the best options stand out.


    E.G.
    Demolition Charge - Pretty cool for an explosive safe-cracker, I guess?

    Dilution - Create more cost-efficient potions, but potions aren't cost-efficient to begin with.

    Dispelling Bomb - Trade bombs for dispel magic attempts. Note that it does not do damage when dispelling. On the other hand, it can be mixed with other bomb effects, as it lacks an asterisk; combine with Breath Weapon bomb for an 15ft cone dispel magic.

    Doppelganger Simulacrum - For DMs: This is absolutely perfect for introducing an alchemist boss. They fight his simulacrums at low levels, building up to the big fight. Above level 10, it's also cheaper than Alchemical Simulacrum. For players: This can be a great get-out-of-jail-free card.

    But it may also be less of an issue if it's in a spoiler tag and not on the white background. Testing that now.

    Spoiler
    Show
    Demolition Charge - Pretty cool for an explosive safe-cracker, I guess?

    Dilution - Create more cost-efficient potions, but potions aren't cost-efficient to begin with.

    Dispelling Bomb - Trade bombs for dispel magic attempts. Note that it does not do damage when dispelling. On the other hand, it can be mixed with other bomb effects, as it lacks an asterisk; combine with Breath Weapon bomb for an 15ft cone dispel magic.

    Doppelganger Simulacrum - For DMs: This is absolutely perfect for introducing an alchemist boss. They fight his simulacrums at low levels, building up to the big fight. Above level 10, it's also cheaper than Alchemical Simulacrum. For players: This can be a great get-out-of-jail-free card.
    Eh....

    Maybe if it's in a spoiler and bold...
    Spoiler
    Show
    Demolition Charge - Pretty cool for an explosive safe-cracker, I guess?

    Dilution - Create more cost-efficient potions, but potions aren't cost-efficient to begin with.

    Dispelling Bomb - Trade bombs for dispel magic attempts. Note that it does not do damage when dispelling. On the other hand, it can be mixed with other bomb effects, as it lacks an asterisk; combine with Breath Weapon bomb for an 15ft cone dispel magic.

    Doppelganger Simulacrum - For DMs: This is absolutely perfect for introducing an alchemist boss. They fight his simulacrums at low levels, building up to the big fight. Above level 10, it's also cheaper than Alchemical Simulacrum. For players: This can be a great get-out-of-jail-free card.
    Eh...


    Maybe if it's not Cyan but Medium Turquoise

    Without bold
    Demolition Charge - Pretty cool for an explosive safe-cracker, I guess?

    Dilution - Create more cost-efficient potions, but potions aren't cost-efficient to begin with.

    Dispelling Bomb - Trade bombs for dispel magic attempts. Note that it does not do damage when dispelling. On the other hand, it can be mixed with other bomb effects, as it lacks an asterisk; combine with Breath Weapon bomb for an 15ft cone dispel magic.

    Doppelganger Simulacrum - For DMs: This is absolutely perfect for introducing an alchemist boss. They fight his simulacrums at low levels, building up to the big fight. Above level 10, it's also cheaper than Alchemical Simulacrum. For players: This can be a great get-out-of-jail-free card.

    Oh, that is so much better.
    Agenda

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    Default Re: [PF] Alchemist Guides and the lack thereof

    I don't think poison is ever viable, but if you were to do it...and being a caster that just turns into stuff w/ a poison attack is unappealing... I suppose Alchemist is the way to go. Mainstays would be the Sticky Poison and Poison Conversion discoveries; the others really aren't that good. Sticky cuts your costs to 1/4 or so; conversion lets you think up ka-wazy combos like "inhaled drow poison". Primary tactics would be fighting in melee with a poisoned weapon while also tossing down some inhaled poison and fighting within it (once you get poison immunity at level 10).

    I think you're being too kind in your rankings, overall.


    Spoiler
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    Alchemical Simulacrum: It costs double what the equivalent spell does in gp. No freaking thank you. Red, orange at best.

    Alchemical Zombie: Orange, Green is too kind. IME, animated undead tend to get destroyed frequently, the price just is not right. I also just really don't like that a tier 3 class has to pay double what a tier 1 class has to and wait till higher levels just to do the same thing. That's really my problem w/ all these zombie/simulacrum discoveries.

    Breath Weapon Bomb: Orange. The only reason to ever use it is to do so w/ dispelling bomb, and that's just too narrow / dspelling ain't so great, either.

    Celestial Poisons: Actually should be green, if poisons have any use at all. Undead have weak fortitude saves, this could be a huge edge against them.

    Chameleon: It may be slightly better than skill focus, but skill focus is a weak feat, and unlike rogue talents...a lot of discoveries actually ARE worth more than a feat. Orange.

    Cognatogen: Cyan. It's a must for a bomber, though most of them will be getting it via Mindchemist anyway. Obviously useless to a physical-based alchemist.

    Combine Extracts: I've struggled to find a good use for it w/ my Alchemist and have avoided taking it thus far. The general accepted equivalence (Versatile Spellcaster feat in 3E) is that two slots of level X is worth 1 slot of level X+1, so this looks weak on a cursory glance.

    Concentrate Poison: Red; not just because poisons are weak, this is also just not worth it.

    Concussive Bomb: Orange; if you want unresisted damage and are willing to sack damage for it, take Force Bomb.

    Confusion Bomb: I agree it's blue. But it does have drawbacks over the spell. You need to touch them, and it's single target only. The power of confusion is confusing a lot of foes so they inevitably start killing each other. To use this, you basically need to nova.

    Deadly Excretions: Red. Bad race, very limited use ability.

    Defoliant Bomb: Red. Will seldom come up.

    Dispelling Bomb: It's nice that it can stack with other stuff, but dispel is nerfed in PF and this version doesn't even let you choose which one spell you get to dispel, so I'd make it green. A very good green perhaps, but still green.

    Doppleganger Simulacrum: It's not bad, but for *players* it seems very limited in usefulness, cyan is way too high. Green at best, possibly orange for being situational and requiring alch. simulacrum.

    Elixer of Life: Again, cyan is just way too high. Costs nearly the same as a scroll of true res, so why are you wasting a high level class feature on this? Also, in 4 more levels, you can create a true res elixir once/month for FREE. So yeah, Orange.

    Eternal Potion: Should probably be Blue.

    Fast Bombs: I think it's just Blue and that blowing 4+ bombs in one round is a sure-fire way to be worthless by the end of the 2nd combat. But apparently a lot of people have very short adventuring days.

    Feral Mutagen: It's good for dex- and wis- based, too! Does kind of suck relying on it instead of a full-time set of claws/bite, but Undead Anatomy I is a good fallback option.

    Holy Bombs: Green. Also has utility in not having to worry about harming allies with splash damage.

    Immolation Bomb: It's red. Very, very red.

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    Default Re: [PF] Alchemist Guides and the lack thereof

    I'd actually defend Dispelling Bomb with a blue rating, but only if you're going for Fast Bombs.

    I'm playing in a game where a buddy of mine is playing an alchemist, and just now Dispelling Bombs and Fast Bombs are coming 'online.' With Haste, he's able to dispel up to three spells a round. Even without the ability to choose which ones, that tears into enemy buffs. We basically curb-stomped a lich because he was able to strip his defenses away in seconds.

    It's essentially like early access to Greater Dispel. It eats through bombs something fierce, though...
    Last edited by CockroachTeaParty; 2013-07-06 at 10:38 PM.

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    Default Re: [PF] Alchemist Guides and the lack thereof

    I'll defend Alchemical simulacrum. Alchemists don't get alchemical any simulacrum on their spell list, so this is their only way to get what is still one of the most broken spells in 3.X.

    At least in terms of all-around utility, it might be better than the doppelganger simulacra because things like Succubi, Wyverns, and Aboleths have less than 10 hit dice, and so it's actually less expensive to create them than it would be a copy of yourself.

    Obviously, other casters (wizards, sorcerers) are better at it, but they're better at most things, and I still think any alchemist should have this ability in his repetoir.
    Last edited by Squirrel_Dude; 2013-07-06 at 11:14 PM.
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    Default Re: [PF] Alchemist Guides and the lack thereof

    Alchemical Simulacrum is based off the spell Lesser Simulacrum, so it's actually double the cost of the spell. The main use of the discovery is as a prerequisite to Doppelganger Simulacrum.

    I like Combine Extracts though. There are some handy low level extracts which combine well; Bomber's Eye and Longshot (both 1st) for example, or Heroic Fortune (2nd) and a buff like Fox's Cunning (2nd) or Haste (3rd). Circumstantial (green), perhaps.

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    Default Re: [PF] Alchemist Guides and the lack thereof

    BTW, if you really want lesser simulacrum in its' own right, there is an archetype which might serve you better.

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    Default Re: [PF] Alchemist Guides and the lack thereof

    And just like that it goes from being really good in my estimate to being average at best.
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    Default Re: [PF] Alchemist Guides and the lack thereof

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    I think you're being too kind in your rankings, overall.
    Definitely. If I was in doubt about something, I put it towards the middle. I mostly didn't feel like saying "this is the best thing ever" or "this is the worst thing ever" without some peer review.

    I don't think poison is ever viable, but if you were to do it...and being a caster that just turns into stuff w/ a poison attack is unappealing... I suppose Alchemist is the way to go.
    Yup...I'd like to eek out at least one "fun" build with poisons for less-optimized groups or maybe for DMs. If it only has to be fun to play one time, it can be a little more forgiving.

    Spoiler
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    Alchemical Simulacrum: It costs double what the equivalent spell does in gp. No freaking thank you. Red, orange at best.
    Gah. Didn't catch that lesser is 50g/HD. Note that it doesn't appear to have a duration (as it creates a creature, not a spell affect), potentially making up for the increase in price.

    Alchemical Zombie: Orange, Green is too kind. IME, animated undead tend to get destroyed frequently, the price just is not right. I also just really don't like that a tier 3 class has to pay double what a tier 1 class has to and wait till higher levels just to do the same thing. That's really my problem w/ all these zombie/simulacrum discoveries.
    I like the undead a little too much. I agree that orange is probably a more objective rating.

    Breath Weapon Bomb: Orange. The only reason to ever use it is to do so w/ dispelling bomb, and that's just too narrow / dspelling ain't so great, either.
    I stand by an "average" rating. A discovery to throw a bomb against a target within 15ft. without provoking attacks of opportunity is already solid, dealing direct hit bomb damage in a cone is better AoE damage than a regular bomb, along with the interaction with dispelling bomb give it three potential uses.

    Celestial Poisons: Actually should be green, if poisons have any use at all. Undead have weak fortitude saves, this could be a huge edge against them.
    Hrm. Interesting. It's worth looking into. I still feel like poisons are generally too weak to make it worth it for the average alchemist, as much as I want to find a "working" poison build.

    Chameleon: It may be slightly better than skill focus, but skill focus is a weak feat, and unlike rogue talents...a lot of discoveries actually ARE worth more than a feat. Orange.
    Eh, I can agree.

    Cognatogen: Cyan. It's a must for a bomber, though most of them will be getting it via Mindchemist anyway. Obviously useless to a physical-based alchemist.
    Not sure why I didn't rate it Cyan; I guess I was just trying to avoid handing out Cyan/Red ratings without further input.

    Combine Extracts: I've struggled to find a good use for it w/ my Alchemist and have avoided taking it thus far. The general accepted equivalence (Versatile Spellcaster feat in 3E) is that two slots of level X is worth 1 slot of level X+1, so this looks weak on a cursory glance.
    Agreed. I wouldn't mind adding a "Suggestions to DMs" section for homebrew fixes to discoveries that could be decent with a little tweaking.

    Concentrate Poison: Red; not just because poisons are weak, this is also just not worth it.
    I feel like the bonus to save DCs would make it worth it for a poison-focused build...which have already been discussed to not be worth it. It'd be nice if it really explained what +50% frequency meant (I think it increases the number of rounds?).

    Concussive Bomb: Orange; if you want unresisted damage and are willing to sack damage for it, take Force Bomb.
    I can agree on a drop to orange in light of Force Bomb.

    Confusion Bomb: I agree it's blue. But it does have drawbacks over the spell. You need to touch them, and it's single target only. The power of confusion is confusing a lot of foes so they inevitably start killing each other. To use this, you basically need to nova.
    Even just dropping one on the BBEG (or on a player) is a 75% chance of losing an action. If it wasn't for the existence of creatures immune to mind-affecting and compulsion effects, I would recommend it for cyan (or purple, as the case may be).

    Deadly Excretions: Red. Bad race, very limited use ability.
    I guess it's improving a 1/day ability. I can agree.

    Defoliant Bomb: Red. Will seldom come up.
    I feel like that's the point of the orange rating: This is useful if it's useful for your needs; for most people, skip it. This one might be too limited use for orange, but I'm actually going to be DMing a campaign where plants are a major category of recurring enemy, so it stood out to me.

    Dispelling Bomb: It's nice that it can stack with other stuff, but dispel is nerfed in PF and this version doesn't even let you choose which one spell you get to dispel, so I'd make it green. A very good green perhaps, but still green.
    Eh, I can see that. You're not going to base your build around it, but if you have room for it, pick it up.

    Doppleganger Simulacrum: It's not bad, but for *players* it seems very limited in usefulness, cyan is way too high. Green at best, possibly orange for being situational and requiring alch. simulacrum.
    I'd be fine with dropping it to green/orange with a note that it's cyan for NPCs/BBEGs. I just have this vision in my head of a room full of marionettes for a major boss fight...

    Elixer of Life: Again, cyan is just way too high. Costs nearly the same as a scroll of true res, so why are you wasting a high level class feature on this? Also, in 4 more levels, you can create a true res elixir once/month for FREE. So yeah, Orange.
    I could see dropping it to blue or green, but it automatically activates (no action cost) in combat for a full HP restore. That basically doubles your effective health for an important combat. Weren't you planning on getting resurrected anyway? Why not pay the cost up front? Once you hit the level you can actually use this, you're probably getting towards the end of the campaign anyway. Even if you only use it once, I feel like it's worth the discovery slot.

    Eternal Potion: Should probably be Blue.
    I guess it depends on what potion gets the Eternal treatment. A list of good potions would probably be nice, but I'm fine with upping it.

    Fast Bombs: I think it's just Blue and that blowing 4+ bombs in one round is a sure-fire way to be worthless by the end of the 2nd combat. But apparently a lot of people have very short adventuring days.
    Several people have commented on the need for more bombs, but I'm not getting it. I played an alchemist from 1 to around 6 and I never really had to worry about running out of bombs. I started with an 18 in Int, I think. I'm fine with downgrading it to blue, but I still think it's a superb nova option.

    Feral Mutagen: It's good for dex- and wis- based, too! Does kind of suck relying on it instead of a full-time set of claws/bite, but Undead Anatomy I is a good fallback option.
    Excellent notes to add.

    Holy Bombs: Green. Also has utility in not having to worry about harming allies with splash damage.
    Ooooh, fancy. Also, for people for playing Paizo APs, once they hit a certain level, almost every enemy is going to be evil. Worth mentioning that you need to check your allies' character sheets first.

    Immolation Bomb: It's red. Very, very red.
    Yeeeeeeeah. The long-term MMO player in me still wants DPR to matter for more than one round, though ::tears::
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTrees View Post
    Knowledge (local) being trained only, and not a class skill for many classes, means that your average human may well not be able to identify other humans! This may explain the exceptional quantity of half-human hybrids.

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    Default Re: [PF] Alchemist Guides and the lack thereof

    Well, we seem to mostly agree on things. The parts we don't are pretty minor and probably just nitpicking, I'm ok with your rankings on those things.

    Quote Originally Posted by avr View Post
    I like Combine Extracts though. There are some handy low level extracts which combine well; Bomber's Eye and Longshot (both 1st) for example, or Heroic Fortune (2nd) and a buff like Fox's Cunning (2nd) or Haste (3rd). Circumstantial (green), perhaps.
    And see, while those may be decent combos, I can honestly say there are multiple extracts of 3rd, 4th, and 5th level (respectively) that I would rather have than those combinations. The fact that they won't cost me a discovery only sweetens it more. And I would seriously never want to use extracts of different levels to combine. Then you're paying an even higher level when one of them is a low level buff.
    If the discovery is worth it, there should be combinations that are noticeably better than just using your higher level extract slots normally. It's not some free option, you're paying a cost for the option.
    Last edited by StreamOfTheSky; 2013-07-07 at 12:14 AM.

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    Default Re: [PF] Alchemist Guides and the lack thereof

    This seems to be stirring up discussion nicely, so I'll move on with some more discoveries.

    Spoiler
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    Inferno Bomb - This is actually pretty solid with the FAQ explanation that the Inferno Bomb damage is in addition to your regular bomb damage, effectively giving an additional 6d6 damage to your bomb (in addition to the battlefield control/vision hampering effects)

    Infuse Mutagen - Not really seeing a purpose to this, possibly red.

    Infusion - Allows your party to use your infusions. I could possibly see downgrading it to blue, but I feel this is a no-brainer if you have a discovery open (or as a first discovery gained).

    Lingering Plague - Disease isn't that great to begin with. Possibly red.

    Lingering Spirit - Situational, but possibly useful.

    Madness Bomb - No-save Wisdom damage is fun, but it's hard to rack it up. Still potentially debilitating to a cleric or druid, and it can soften someone up for an important Will save effect from a party member.

    Malignant Poison - Wow. This is great for poison users. Too bad by level 10 they're already long overdue for something like this. Could be much better if your DM lets you take it early.

    Mummification - Immunity to cold, nonlethal damage, paralysis, and sleep for a discovery is wonderful. Needing to wait a month is not. Talk to your DM to see if mummification is right for you.

    Mutagen - If you need it, you already have it from taking a level of alchemist. If you dropped it for an archetype, you probably don't need it.

    Nauseating Flesh - Cute. Could go green to red depending on the prevalence of creatures with bite attacks in your campaign.

    Parasitic Twin - If only it wasn't once per day. Still, it kicks in once you've already failed the save.

    Plague Bomb - Potentially red. Diseases have pitifully low DCs.

    Greater Plague Bomb - Potentially red. I feel like there's some use if you can soften up an enemy, but this really only feels like its good for a plot device ("Oh, no! The village is diseased!")

    Poison Bomb - Cloudkill + bomb damage? Only one level after the Wizard gets it? Pretty sweet.

    Poison Conversion - Oh, poison. Poison, poison, poison.

    Precise Bombs - This is pretty important unless your allies all have immunity/heavy resistances to your primary bomb energy type. Obviously worthless for non-bomb users.

    Preserve Organs - It's probably better to just shell out the gold for light fortification armor, but you can get it from level 2, and critical hits are a leading cause of death in low level characters.

    Rag Doll Mutagen - The bonus on Escape Artist is a poor man's freedom of movement. But you get freedom of movement from the alchemist extract list, so this is just a poor choice.

    Ranged Baptism - Hilariously named, but impractical.

    Rocket Bomb - More chances to hurt your allies? Can't be used with two of the leading discoveries? Hooray!

    Scrap Bomb - Its one saving grace is that it doesn't have an asterisk, meaning it can be stacked onto any bomb. By RAW, it looks like it can be mixed with Breath Weapon Bomb, allowing you to cough shrapnel onto your foes.

    Shock Bomb - Electricity is less likely to be resisted than fire, but dazzled is just worthless. Go with Acid Bombs or Frost Bombs if you want to shift elements without DPS loss.

    Siege Bomb - I don't know enough about the siege weapon system to accurately rate it.

    Smoke Bomb - Possible blue. Stack battlefield control onto your primary damage ability.

    Spontaneous Healing - The one thing I really have to recommend it is the fact that it's a free action, but this is potentially red.

    Healing Touch - The only reason I can see to taking it is increasing the amount of healing from Spontaneous Healing each day.

    Sticky Bomb - It's a straight DPS increase that stacks with everything (it's essentially adding Int+number of bomb dice to every hit). It applies on direct hits, so sticky breath away!

    Sticky Poison - I feel like there's a sweet spot for a poison alchemist right about level 6. This is solid for them, plus they get swift-action poisons at this level.

    Stink Bomb - Nausea+battlefield control+damage all in one go? Heck, yes!

    Strafe Bomb - Interesting but mostly impractical. Feels like it would be really good in cramped hallways or as an alternative to Precise bombs.

    Sunlight Bomb - +2 damage per die to undead is potentially useful, as they're one of the most common enemy types.

    Tanglefoot Bomb - Not bad. Sadly has an asterisk and can't be combined with other kinds of bombs.

    Tentacle - It's fancy, but possibly red.

    Tumor Familiar - Familiars are already a good value as an extra set of actions each round, plus a skill bonus (or initiative bonus!), plus alertness, plus the disgusting mental image. Possibly blue. Also, check out Die for Your Master.

    Underwater Demolition - This is pretty awful. Even if you're going underwater, this is pretty awful.

    Vestigial Arm - I've seen some creative things done with this and Gunslinging builds. Probably red for general use.

    Wings - Extraordinary flying. 'nuff said.
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    Default Re: [PF] Alchemist Guides and the lack thereof

    Quote Originally Posted by Novawurmson View Post
    Tanglefoot Bomb - Not bad. Sadly has an asterisk and can't be combined with other kinds of bombs.
    I'd say the Tanglefoot Bomb goes to blue if you have the Bramble Brewer archetype. Although the rounds of entanglement goes from 2d4 to Int mod rounds, the splash radius entangles and becomes difficult terrain for that duration. The radius also increases by 5ft every odd level, so 55ft radius at 19th level. Combine it with Precise Bomb to exclude your teammate from being entangled, and you have some fairly decent battlefield control.
    It'll probably be too silly to see actual play, but is there anything preventing the air from becoming difficult terrain?

    EDIT: Two other things that probably don't work, Strafe Bomb turns it into a line 8 times as long as the splash radius (RAW it doesn't work, as it gives a set distance that doubles if Explosive Bomb is applied), and Greater Plague Bomb lacks the asterisk allowing it to stack with the Tanglefoot Bomb, it causes a Greater Contagion effect in an area double the radius. Of course it's the smoke that causes the effect, which our Tanglefoot Bomb doesn't create.
    Last edited by The Random NPC; 2013-07-07 at 01:36 AM.
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    Default Re: [PF] Alchemist Guides and the lack thereof

    And because I'm insane and possibly unqualified, I'll start looking at extracts. As with races, unless I feel the need to say something, I'll be keeping it to color.


    One nice thing about the Alchemist in this regard is that they get both divine and arcane spells like bard does, but unlike the bard, can in theory know all of them. Also unlike the bard, you don't get cantrips. So there's that This also means that spells will be rated more on overall usefulness as opposed to "if you get this, you can't get this." Even if there are somehow 15 good first level extracts, you have the ability to get all of them.

    Also, getting to copy a spell-equivalent-formulae from a wizard's spellbook without needing to make a spellcraft check to decipher it is nice. If you have a party wizard, you should probably ask him if you can take time look through his spellbook every so often.

    1st level extracts
    Spoiler
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    Adjuring Step: It's not that it's bad, it's that illusion of calm is better in my opinion.
    Ant Haul:
    Anticipate Peril: How often do you really have time to ready yourself to roll initiative? How often do you want to have a spell prepared for that situation?
    Blend: It's hide in plain sight with a bonus to stealth for 10 minutes. A must for any Vivisectionist.
    Bomber's Eye: Bomber's want this, mutants don't
    Comprehend Languages:
    Crafter's Fortune:
    Cure Light Wounds:
    Detect Secret Doors: Let someone else do this
    Detect Undead:
    Disguise Self:
    Endure Elements: Pick it up before you head to the desert and not a moment sooner.
    Enlarge Person: A buff for you or your friends.
    Expeditious Retreat:
    Identify:
    Illusion of Calm:
    Jump:
    Keen Senses: Only barely, and only if you don't have low-light or darkvision.
    Linebreaker: Decent for a mutagen user
    Longshot: Bombers get this
    Negate Aroma: This is probably generous
    Polypurpose Panacea: There are a ton of things this spell can do, maybe one of them can be useful.
    Recharge Innate Magic:
    Reduce Person: A buff for stealth/recon, or a debuff for your enemies.
    See Alignment:
    Shield: Better for people staying out of melee
    Shock Shield: Better for people staying in melee with a bunch of enemies.
    Stone Fist:
    Targeted Bomb Admixture: Bombers get this
    Touch of the Sea: It has it's place. It just wont' be that common of one.
    True Strike:
    Urban Grace:
    Vocal Alteration:
    Youthful Appearance: Only slightly better than Haunted Fey Aspect. Only slightly


    Tired. More another day.
    Last edited by Squirrel_Dude; 2013-07-07 at 01:52 AM.
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