Explanations? Don't hold your breath...

[EntilZha]

To quote the avatar of the OP, "Thank you, thank you very much" for the explanation of the lack of explanation.

[Vorkuta]

Hey! Just found this thread, probably should have put my ramblings in here instead of the other... ah well.

First off, interesting idea, great artwork.

That out of the way, on to opinions and such...

I admit I'm a bit thrown by Erfworld... the more I read the more I understand, it's true, but I'm not sure the average reader is going to have that kind of patience, I dunno. The way I look at it, it's all about mathematics. Reader interest is directly tied to the way the material is presented but also to their knowledge (or lack thereof) of the subject material.

# Fans = Accessibility x Engaging Idea

Now say for tOoTs, you've got the idea modified by the size of the reader set that understands D&D, which is quite large. So you get something like:

# Fans = 5% (an imaginary number representing the populace that play/have played D&D) * 1 (Let's say Oots is a benchmark)

For Erfworld, it's a bit different. Many have proposed that it is loosely based on the Warlords franchise, which I admit it does appear to be similar to, in many ways. BUT, it also incorporates a lot of other unrelated material that is "niche" oriented in it's own right, giving something like:

# Fans = 1% (an imaginary number representing the populace that play/have played Warlords) * 20% (an imaginary number representing the populace that eat/have eaten peeps) * 2% (an imaginary number representing the populace that understand the "O RLY?" meme)... etc...

OK so that was a realllly convoluted way of saying your target is going to be a lot smaller than OOts. (Why do I keep bringing up Oots? Dunno, it's just on the same site, why not?) I think you anticipated that though. However, I think the compounded small-niche nature of the material included in Erfworld is causing MY particular problem...

Yeah, I've played Warlords. A bit. Yes, I've seen a peep, and I know what one is, (though I've never eaten one) however I'd never in a million years understand why it'd be in a comic based on a turn-based RPG. Now onto "O RLY?". Had no clue what that was, (I do only by reading this forum) but admit I'd also never link it to the primary material of Erfworld. So you can see the problem of small niches are compounded by including several in one piece of material... some people will understand one of them, a smaller group will understand more of the references, and a much smaller group will understand ALL of them simultaneously.

Again, I don't know if that's BAD per se, but I'd be worried if it were my comic and I planned to make money with it. If that's not your aim or if I've missed your intent completely, then please disregard.

Regardless, I think you've got a bright, original idea with great potential.

[Om]

Again, I don't know if that's BAD per se, but I'd be worried if it were my comic and I planned to make money with it.

The creators could always be following another business model - gather a small group of rabid fans and get them to sign over all their belongings to you. Mass suicides are optional though probably preferable to mass weddings.

[Jorkens]

# Fans = 1% (an imaginary number representing the populace that play/have played Warlords) * 20% (an imaginary number representing the populace that eat/have eaten peeps) * 2% (an imaginary number representing the populace that understand the "O RLY?" meme)... etc...

I'd say that that's oversimplifying a bit - there are a lot of people around here who have said things like "I didn't get this reference or that reference but those bits killed me!" And I'm not sure that it's all that dependent on having played Warlords - having played anything with turn based combat (including Civ2 or whatever or even a big battle scene in a D&D campaign) should leave you able to follow what's going on. Actually, my girlfriend has never roleplayed[1] and loves OotS. Although it did help when I explained to her what a spot check was.

I guess the other question is whether Rob and Jamie sat down and thought "how are we going to customize our references in order to strategically maximize our market share to increase our returns in the lucrative geeky comic market", or whether they just set out to write something that they thought was interesting, entertaining and funny and that they hoped other people would enjoy too...

[1] no, not like that

[Vorkuta]

I'd say that that's oversimplifying a bit

Well, yes, that's what I was trying to do...

there are a lot of people around here who have said things like "I didn't get this reference or that reference but those bits killed me!"

I understand that. I personally am in the "ok I didn't get but 25% of that, but some bits SEEMED kinda funny..." but it's cool...

And I'm not sure that it's all that dependent on having played Warlords - having played anything with turn based combat (including Civ2 or whatever or even a big battle scene in a D&D campaign) should leave you able to follow what's going on.

I hear ya. I can follow it. Kinda. I was a big turn-based strat game player in HS. That part of the comiic I don't have to "work" to understand. It's only when you throw in the other references to largely unrelated items (ex: peeps, internet memes) that it throws me for a loop.

I guess the other question is whether Rob and Jamie sat down and thought "how are we going to customize our references in order to strategically maximize our market share to increase our returns in the lucrative geeky comic market", or whether they just set out to write something that they thought was interesting, entertaining and funny and that they hoped other people would enjoy too...

Sure. And that's what I alluded to. I can't say I know their intentions were for the market of Erfworld. If it's the niche they've apparently hit, then more power to them, I say. I have a suspicion they were hoping for a bit wider audience though, but I could be wrong.

It all comes down to the basic issue of "accessibility". Erfworld is not easily accessible to me, and I really don't think I'm a complete moron. But that depends who you ask.

[1] no, not like that

Hey don't knock it... uhm... hrm...

[pclips]

At a science fiction convention in 1990, I was fortunate enough to meet a boyhood hero: Roger Zelazny. He had been my favorite author since 6th grade. He won multiple Hugos and Nebulas, and wrote my favorite Fantasy series of all time: The Chronicles of Amber. It was my only chance to meet him; he died of cancer in 1995.

He told me something about writing which I will never forget. He said, "Tell a good story, and all is forgiven."

[Vorkuta]

He told me something about writing which I will never forget. He said, "Tell a good story, and all is forgiven."

Well, I'm willing to hang with Erfworld a bit longer to find out. I may grumble a bit at times, though. The story feels a bit disjointed for me at the moment (after 14 episodes) but I think overall it's got promise, assuming I don't have to work TOO hard. You definitely have some die-hard fans already though, it appears.

[Eldhrin]

For those comparing the start of Erfworld to the start of OOTS, remember this: OOTS (according to the commentary by Rich in the books) wasn't originally intended to have much of a storyline. It was just a bunch of jokes about D&D set in a generic everydungeon with a dysfunctional party of adventurers. That, of course, changed rather rapidly, hence the need for Elan to Summon Plot Exposition.

Erfworld is different. Rich said when it was announced that it would be written in a different style. It's like getting a graphic novel a page at a time, rather than a joke-a-week comic as OOTS is more closely related to. The starts of the two are different because they're rather different in style.

Personally I think there's just the right amount of explanation at the moment. I'm sure that more information will come to light in a bit, but I'm already hooked. At the moment I see no reason why the necessary backstory wouldn't be provided as part of the narrative at such time as it might be needed. We'll soon start to get the hang of what people can do and some more of the rules that this world works by.

I'm actually rather looking forward to the end. Why? Because I can already feel myself holding the printed complete Erfworld: The Battle for Gobwin Nob in my hands, and it's good.

Oh yes, it's very good.

[chionophile]

At a science fiction convention in 1990, I was fortunate enough to meet a boyhood hero: Roger Zelazny. He had been my favorite author since 6th grade. He won multiple Hugos and Nebulas, and wrote my favorite Fantasy series of all time: The Chronicles of Amber. It was my only chance to meet him; he died of cancer in 1995.

He told me something about writing which I will never forget. He said, "Tell a good story, and all is forgiven."

You are a fan of and met Roger Zelazny? That's ridiculously cool! If you bring in any inspiration from Zelazny or writers like him, this will be an even awesomer (yes, that's not a word) strip than it is already!

p.s. The Amber chronicles are one of my favorites too. Lord of Light is another.

[Mr Teufel]

It is trying my patience a little, but not as much, say, as Alpha Shade. And I'm beginning to wonder if the guy in page 14 is dreaming TBfGK, hence the name-checking of various memes/games/foods whatever.

Hangin' in there, and hoping for the best.

[Darth Paradox]

H
# Fans = 1% (an imaginary number representing the populace that play/have played Warlords) * 20% (an imaginary number representing the populace that eat/have eaten peeps) * 2% (an imaginary number representing the populace that understand the "O RLY?" meme)... etc...

This math assumes that you have to understand all the references in order to enjoy the comic (or even be a member of the target audience).

Well. I've never played Warlords, and I despise Peeps (though I am aware of their existence, just like most people). But I'm digging the comic.

There are references from all over the place here. Generally multiple ones in a single page. You don't need to get them all to enjoy the comic.

[Sir_Faust]

i agree with pclips.

[Wardog]

You dont even have to have played turn-based strategy games to get some of the jokes - RTS games can point the way just as well. (The original Command and Conquer demonstrated very effectively how one minor unit can not just mean the difference between a minor defeat and a minor victory, but even major defeats/victories.

And seeing that this is a web comic, I would imagine many of the readers would either be familiar with, or at least know of Real Time/ Turn Based strategy games, assorted internet memes, etc, and many of the other things refered to.

And for those they don't get, the internet does allow access to a lot of information.

Coincidently, I only found out about ORLY? a few weeks ago. (Googling for "Chuck Norris Facts" > Wikipedia article on the CNF meme > link to Wikipedia article on Internet memes > article about ORLY?


And right before posting this, I found out what a Peep is.

Remember: Wikipedia is your friend :)


Besides, you don't need to instantly get every joke to find the comic funny overall.

[Azukar]

Besides, you don't need to instantly get every joke to find the comic funny overall.

Agreed.

Chionophile: you didn't steal my Snow Golem concept for your avatar, now did you?

[Tnetalque]

There really seems to be a well-planned story working behind this comic, I can't wait 'till the next release.

[chionophile]

Agreed.

Chionophile: you didn't steal my Snow Golem concept for your avatar, now did you?

haha, no, I've had this avatar since I joined the forums. I just like snow, so one of my friends made it for me.

[mhoram]

Besides, you don't need to instantly get every joke to find the comic funny overall.

Certainly, I don't.

I didn't know about the ORLY? meme, but I looked it up and was amused.
I enjoyed the gradual dawning realization that the Gwiffon was a Peep. It was kind of disturbing, but I LIKE disturbing. Similarly, trying to figure out the nuances of the world has been an interesting challenge.

I hope we get more political exposition about the sides and agendas of the war, but I'm sure that Protagonist's...er Parson's arrival will be an excellent occasion for this.

I have some thoughts and opinions about the quality, civility, and maturity of some of the people slamming the comic here, but I don't have the time to scrutinize the posting guidelines to know how to parse them in a manner that would pass muster. Suffice to say, if the new comic were HAMSTARD it wouldn't deserve the level of hostility and venom it's getting at such an early stage of it's release.

Edit: Indirect criticism of people whose lack of civility really ticks me off voluntarily removed.

[foil_fedora]

I'm amazed how many people take the time to write long, detailed posts about how they don't get the jokes, so the strip is bad... but they keep coming back to read more of the "bad, I don't get it" strip and post more complaints.

Strange behavior.

I don't always get the references, and that is good. Wikipedia is indeed my friend, I have now grokked the fullness of ORLY?, and know the great debt I owe to Jack Scruby; so I am not only entertained, but educated as well.

Then again, I may just have an affinity for material that makes me think... I've been a huge Roger Zelazny fan for years, ever since I read "Lord of Light"... twice. The beginning was strange and obscure on the first reading, but all became became crystal clear once the backstory was revealed. The novel is a masterwork, mostly *because* the beginning is so obscure.

I look forward to re-reading Erfworld from the beginning, once I've learned the fate of Gobwin Knob. No doubt much that is now obscure will be clear to me then.

Great story so far, don't you dare dumb it down!

[Vonriel]

Personally, I like the strip. It's a new take on an old story, if you will. The setting is great, I've always loved turn-based strategies whether or not they tended to be really easy. The fact that the characters within the setting know where they are adds to the humor.

This strip isn't about subtlety, it isn't about symbolism, it doesn't possess layers upon layers of hidden meanings. Perhaps the titans at the beginning appeared like Elvis precisely because Elvis could have been called a music titan during his day. Maybe the creator chose a peep as a gwiffon because the idea of a peep eating a troll is just funny. I mean, seriously, picture it: a marshmallow bird opening up its maw and swallowing a troll. It's possible that he chose orlies because he thought it would be funny to have them eaten by a dwagon. Am I saying these elements of story telling don't exist? No. But not everything you see/read about this strip is going to possess them. Rich wasn't being facetious when he said "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." It's true here: Stop reading so deeply into this comic.

You - those who don't like it - assume that the author is making jokes that are too far above (or perhaps below) you for you to find them funny. The fact of the matter is, you've ruined the jokes for yourself by thinking this comic is about the jokes. If I could think of another webcomic to compare this to, I would, but I can't, so I have to allude to a book I imagine most people here have read. You can't pick up a book like Servant of the Shard, by R.A. Salvatore, expecting the book to make you laugh uproariously at every turn of the page. It's just not how the book is written. The same can be said of Erfworld. It's being written as a story, a narrative, and like most stories, there are humorous situations involved within, because any story that has no humor in it is too boring and dull for anyone to want to continue reading it. And no, the strip isn't jumping around. There has only been one jump, and it was to explain who the summoned general was, and where he came from. This was a necessary jump, otherwise you would've complained about 'where did this fat guy come from? and why was he chosen as their general instead of George Patton?'

This community is judging this strip based on what they've seen of OoTS, it's rather obvious. Even when told "This strip is nothing like OoTS. There is no reason to compare them, and if you do I will personally come to your house and beat you senseless with a brick stick." you still don't listen. The almighty himself could come down, smack you upside the head, and say "DO NOT COMPARE THIS COMIC TO OOTS." and you still wouldn't listen. So no, I have no hopes of changing the community's view at large with what I'm saying. I just hope to convince however many of you who are doing this to step back and say "Hey, y'know, maybe I should be looking at this from a different perspective." It seems like you're ready to hang the captain two days after setting out to sea because a wave happened to drench you. Oh, and one last thing. I assume those of you who read PvP are familiar with his link to the "Death of Politeness" article he posted, so you would be able to recognize that those of you who post against this follow the same methods of negative feedback that the author of that article was talking about. Congratulations, you're contributing!

[ChimericPhase]

I find it interesting so many readers complain about the various reasons they dislike this comic, yet they always return for the abuse. Masochistic readers? Didn't think it was possible.

Erfworld is a strange comic. It's stranger than any other webcomic I have ever read (and I read alot of them).

And I love every pixel of it.

It's so surreal, and it forces me to stop and think about things differently, which is great. A webcomic that challenges me to think about it in ways no other webcomic ever has before!

Erfworld doesn't hold my hand, doesn't baby me through the explainations, doesn't cater to the lowest common denominator in the attempt to reach as many as possible. In other words, it doesn't treat me stupid. I like that.

It does read alot like a graphic novel, instead of a mere comic. I don't mind waiting for each page, its worth the wait. I have plenty of things to do to fill my time while I wait.

But here's what I have to say:

If you like the plot, love it for the plot. It's not really that hard to glaze over the jokes if you don't get them. You don't have to 'get' the joke to understand the story. Its not hard to tell Orlies are the avian looking creatures attacking the lizardy looking creatures. It's basic reading comprehension. Don't believe me? Pick up any Dr. Seuss book and read it and tell me you can't at least basically understand the premise of the book's story.

If you like the jokes, like the jokes. Simple as that. This comic seems to have enough that even if you're not following the plot, something funny will crop up every other comic or so.

If you like the plot, and the jokes are funny. Then you belong here.

If you can't or won't like the plot and/or the jokes, then Erfworld probably isn't for you. Be nice, be mature about it, and move on to something that is fulfilling and entertaining for you, instead of holding yourself back on something you obviously don't enjoy.

[Maurog]

Stranger than any other webcomic? Not even close.
Flatwood is surreal, Erfworld is just a bit on the wacky side...

[ChimericPhase]

Stranger than any other webcomic? Not even close.
Flatwood is surreal, Erfworld is just a bit on the wacky side...

The qualifier is in my statement.

It's stranger than any other webcomic I have ever read (and I read alot of them).

I am allowed to make opinions based on my experiences, which are not necissarily the same as anyone else's. Obviously my list of webcomics, comics, and graphic novels does not include the same ones as yours.

However, my advice is still fairly sound. Whether Erfworld is strange, wacky, mildly amusing, or as boring as grits n' butter... Unless you are obligated by some reckoning unknown to me, no one is forcing people to read this webcomic. If someone is not entertained, interested, or amused by the reading of Erfworld, then reading something else might be more fulfilling.

[foil_fedora]

Whether Erfworld is strange, wacky, mildly amusing, or as boring as grits n' butter...

How *dare* you malign grits n' butter!!!

(Just trying to start a more pointless debate... Please, oh please, someone give me a detailed explanation about why I shoud not enjoy grits n' butter, and what a fool I am to enjoy the flavor!! Be sure to include lots of comparisons to bacon, as an obviously superior morning cholesterol delivery vehicle. Surely I can be saved from my grits-lovin' ways by a detailed description of their obvious shorcomings, and the natural superiority of bacon.)

Thog like bacon n' butter!!!

[Hilary Moon Murphy]

I'm rather fond of grits myself, and I'm a California girl that got transplanted to the upper midwest... I believe in trying out all sorts of experiences, and like having my horizons expanded. That's one of the reasons why I am enjoying Erfworld so much.

Do I get all the jokes? Heck no. I don't play online roleplaying games at all and have only rarely wandered into chatrooms. That said... The plot is cool, and it is interesting figuring out the pieces of the puzzle.

Now... Let's go back to that interesting issue of accessibility. Erfworld was weird, original and funny before Parson Gotti's arrival with a giant "PLOT!" eruption but it was not that accessible. All of a sudden, I've started seeing far more posts from people who are saying, "Oh! I get it now! I'm hooked!"

One could argue that Parson's arrival is the least original thing that has happened so far in the strip. It is a very old plot device to have someone from the real world enter a fictional one. So why are we so excited that this has happened?

One word: accessibility.

Parson provides a point of view that exists nowhere else in the strip. Through him, we can start to understand some of Erfworld's weirdness. It is also comforting to have a familiar plot trope within this very strange setting. Parson anchors us, and gives us a place to start exploring this very weird world.

(I also like that Parson is bright. I'm a sucker for men who are quick on the uptake.)

I think that the other reason that Parson's arrival excites us so much is that it brings in an element to the plotline of redemption and second chances. Up to this point, Parson has been an outcast, unable to connect to the world in which he lived. Outside of his gaming hobby, most people would consider him a loser. But he's been given a fresh start in a world that can use his talents, and that is a very attractive possibility. It's something we all want, which helps with our ability to connect to the strip.

In other words, I'm digging it.

Long live Erfworld!

Hmm

[PolkaBear]

Not a rant: just personal reflection.

*snip*
One could argue that Parson's arrival is the least original thing that has happened so far in the strip. It is a very old plot device to have someone from the real world enter a fictional one. So why are we so excited that this has happened?

One word: accessibility.

Parson provides a point of view that exists nowhere else in the strip.
*snip*

Excellent point. I hadn't thought of that before, but it rings true.

Personally, it was the lack of explanation that hooked me. Here I found a visually beautiful comic with a character that seemed just out of reach of my comprehension. Enter curiousity. I thought, "A puzzle! Now I need to read further just to understand what's going on."

There's enough in the first dozen pages--with its odd combination of familiarity-turned-on-its-head and an actual story--to give me hope of finally understanding it. It's neither opaque nor boilerplate, so neither despair nor boredom set in. All the rest adds to the sense of the wonder and discovery.

So leave the "walkthroughs and cheat codes" for somebody else: I'm enjoying the route of gradual enlightenment.

EDIT: And the latest page (20) is laugh-out-loud hilarious!

[Delfia]

I don't know if anyone has noticed, but the character of Parson (so far) brings to my mind a fellow named Cheraderine Zakalwe in a book called "The use of weapons" written by Iain M. Banks. Parson, like Zakalwe, appears to be a master tactician (a perfect soldier if you will), who only fluorishes in the environment of warfare. When trapped in an existence of peace, such a person dies a slow death.

So this should be very interesting. I loved that book, so far I have loved this comic.

[Heliomance]

To all those people nattering and theorising about target audience, can I just say this:
I am English, have never heard of Peeps, have never played DnD, have never heard of Warlords, have never played any of these turn based games. And yet, I love both OoTS and Erfworld. And I get the majority of the jokes. (Admittedly, I haven't got a clue why the guy could taste key lime pie, but hey. I don't even know what key lime pie is.) You don't have to be a member of a demographic minority to get the comics.

[Uzraid]

Key lime pie contains a custard made with key lime (Citrus aurantiifolia) juice and usually topped with meringue or other sweetened whipped cream.

[Erk]

As far as I know the key lime pie was not a deep reference. Brain injury or manipulation can cause weird effects. One possible effect is the impression of smelling or tasting something that is not there. For example, when the brain sense centers were first mapped out it was by studying the damage to a woman's brain. This woman had had a stroke, and while having the stroke said she could smell burning toast.

[Raveler1]

One could argue that Parson's arrival is the least original thing that has happened so far in the strip. It is a very old plot device to have someone from the real world enter a fictional one. So why are we so excited that this has happened?

One word: accessibility.

Parson provides a point of view that exists nowhere else in the strip. Through him, we can start to understand some of Erfworld's weirdness. It is also comforting to have a familiar plot trope within this very strange setting. Parson anchors us, and gives us a place to start exploring this very weird world.

I've heard this refered to as the "Han Solo" effect - that Han provides the nice accessable character that voices our problems with the world of Star Wars ("Hokey Religions", etc.). I see Parson in much the same way - he's the voice of the reader, in many ways - even if we aren't exactly like him, we can identify him with something we ARE familiar with.