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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tactics

    To say nothing of the fact that You'd be amazed the crap you can actually be pulled by using guardsmen in the 3rd and 4th ed codex.
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  2. - Top - End - #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Gunslinger View Post
    You can't shoot in assault, as this would break the game. Rapid fire is 2 shots up to half range if the unit doesn't move. Having fought Tau for a long time, I can say that I think it's just 2 shots, even for pulse rifles. If you have any more questions, let me know. Good luck!
    Erm. What about flamers? Can flamers be used in CC? Cause I thought they could. (Not that that means too much.)
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tactics

    Hum.. how good are sniper rifles against Space Marines, Necrons, and other high-toughness ennemies?

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    Looking at the numbers, you'd expect them to be good at hitting but bad at penetrating armor. They'll hurt the target half the time if they can break the armor, but since high-toughness enemies usually have good armor saves that could be a problem.
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  5. - Top - End - #125
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    I hope not to be accused of being overly picky, so hopefully Gunslinger you won't mind if I contradict you on a couple of things.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Gunslinger View Post
    2, What's with moving range? I.E., Firewarriors w/pulse rifle have the stats, 'rapid fire' and, 'range 30 inches'. If they move, how does this change?

    Rapid fire weapons can fire one shot up to max. range, but if they move, it's one shot up to 12".
    Not quite.
    If you don't move, you can fire one shot up to max range. Alternatively, you can fire 2 shots at 12" range.
    If you do move, your only choice is to fire 2 shots at 12" range.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Gunslinger View Post
    9/ If this occurs, the victors (unless terminators) can pursue 2D6" as infantry, or 3D6" as cavalry/bikes. If they catch the losers, the losers (unless they're space marines) are wiped out.
    The close combat explanation is fine up to here.
    If the loser falls back, both units roll 1d6 and add their Initiative score (the score of the majority if there is more than one).
    • If the fleeing unit rolls higher, they fall back normally.
    • If the unit who won the combat rolls equal to the enemy or higher, the fleeing unit is completely wiped out.

    Regardless of whether the losers of the combat fall back or not, the winners can consolidate 1d6" in any direction (roll for the whole squad), after which they have to end up within 2" of each other. As of 5e, they cannot use this consolidation move to end up in close combat!

    I generally find the 5e rulebook explains all the rules fairly clearly, perhaps more so than the 4e one, so I reccomend taking a look at that if you haven't already.
    [hr]
    Quote Originally Posted by Kane View Post
    Erm. What about flamers? Can flamers be used in CC? Cause I thought they could. (Not that that means too much.)
    Afraid not. No shooting weapons can be used in CC.

    There is an exception to this, but not in the main game. In Imperial Armour Volume IV: The Anphelion Project, there are rules for fighting in complexes. These include rules for a "Stand and Fire" option in close combat. If a unit gets charged, they can go without any combat attacks at all in favour of firing most of their weapons (there are rules on what can and cannot be fired in IA4).
    [hr]
    Does anyone have Imperial Armour 1, and if so, would you be willing to look up the stats of the Salamander to see if it has any transport space? My reason for asking is that I want a Fast Vehicle in which to place my Command Squads. I'm probably going to take a Centaur anyway, but the command-pattern Salamander has a heavy flamer, which would be handy to help burn the Tyranid hordes. Ave Imperator!
    Last edited by Bryn; 2008-08-17 at 03:45 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #126
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    Hmm.. I am planning to do a Gue'Vera Guard unit, so fluff-wise, I wouldn't accept DaemonHunter's "reinforcement", I would have to go with Tau reinforcement. Do the Tau have good HtH units to stand against Space Marines? (I know the Tau are even more fragile than the IG in HtH, but maybe they got auxiliaries?)
    Tau really aren't built for Close Combat - it isn't a rumour or a generalisation, they are quite distinctly biased against it.

    All Tau are WS2, with the exception of some of their "Squad Sergeant" models which are WS3, Stealth Suits (WS3) and anything wearing a VX8 Crisis Suit (WS3). Only 2 Tau models in the entire army have power weapons, and both are special characters.
    If you really, really want to use Tau in CC, Crisis suits are probably your only hope as - although they are Elites and therefore very expensive to take risks with - they do have A2 as standard, and their Strength/Armour Save will serve them better than most things.

    By and large, Kroot are your best bet for close combat. They're not much better fighters than Tau, but they have more attacks and are a lot cheaper, which means they're perfect for tying up an enemy while you surround them with your Tanks and missile launchers rather than sacrifice some of your precious guns to do so.

    Against Marines, I'd recommend that you stay out of Close Combat at all costs.
    Failing that, either take a LOT of Kroot, try to justify the inclusion of Ogryns into your army, or instead invest in Commander Farsight and some of his Bodyguards. The latter is probably the best you can hope for, short of some really, REALLY lucky rolls with your flechette launchers...

    Hum.. how good are sniper rifles against Space Marines, Necrons, and other high-toughness enemies?
    Variable, depending on what kind of Snipers you have. Human and Tau Snipers have slightly different rules to Eldar, and I only play the latter, but here's what I have learned.
    They're just too expensive to use en masse, making them only annoyances against horde armies, and their AP just isn't up to the task of reliably taking out anything in Carapace (4+) Armour or better. Unless you're assured of seeing lots of Independent Characters in your opponents' armies, which are sometimes a viable target depending on who they are and what they're doing, I wouldn't bother.

    Having said that, they're sometimes quite useful for taking out Large, Tough Creatures like Wraithlord and Carnifex. These sorts of things usually require anti-tank weaponry to take down, which can often be put to better use taking out tanks and larger numbers of closely packed infantry.
    Snipers ignore ridiculously high toughness values, and Monstrous Creatures generally lack a brilliant armour save, so a Squad of 5 or 6 Snipers acting without help from other units can usually be trusted to take out something like a Wraithlord in a couple of turns or so.

    So against Marines and Necrons? The answer is usually "Not much, because their armour is more use to them than their Toughness and Sniper Rifles prefer it the other way around".

    Does anyone have Imperial Armour 1, and if so, would you be willing to look up the stats of the Salamander to see if it has any transport space?
    No, they don't. Your original choice in the Centaur is a much better one
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  7. - Top - End - #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    No, they don't. Your original choice in the Centaur is a much better one
    Ah, thanks for the info! I guess I was only really interested in the Salamander due to a certain HERO OF THE IMPERIUM, since the Centaur is a much better model.

  8. - Top - End - #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z-Axis View Post
    Ah, thanks for the info! I guess I was only really interested in the Salamander due to a certain HERO OF THE IMPERIUM, since the Centaur is a much better model.
    Curse you! Now I want to convert a salamander model being ridden by CIAPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM, with Gunner Jurgen as the driver. I could turn it into a little diorama, with civilians running for cover and a trail of destruction in it's wake.

    Gunner Jurgen's driving skills are.. well, let's not go there.
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  9. - Top - End - #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z-Axis View Post
    Not quite.
    If you don't move, you can fire one shot up to max range. Alternatively, you can fire 2 shots at 12" range.
    If you do move, your only choice is to fire 2 shots at 12" range.
    Oh. Awesome! That means there's a lot less of a penalty to moving than I thought there was. Thanks!
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolkaTruesilver View Post
    Hmm.. I am planning to do a Gue'Vera Guard unit, so fluff-wise, I wouldn't accept DaemonHunter's "reinforcement", I would have to go with Tau reinforcement. Do the Tau have good HtH units to stand against Space Marines? (I know the Tau are even more fragile than the IG in HtH, but maybe they got auxiliaries?)
    Against marines... O'Shovah and his followers might work... hmm... Kroot, Vespid... drones...

    ! An Ethereal might work! Aun'shi, from 3rd edition would've been perfect, but he's gone. Any Ethereal with honour blades could tie up a reasonably sized unit for a while.

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    I don't mind being contradicted at all, Z-axis! It's all good. But the questions Kane asked were regarding the 4th ed. rules, so I tried to answer from there. I haven't examined 5th too closely yet, but I'll get on it soon.
    Last edited by The Gunslinger; 2008-08-17 at 02:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Destro_Yersul View Post
    Curse you! Now I want to convert a salamander model being ridden by CIAPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM, with Gunner Jurgen as the driver. I could turn it into a little diorama, with civilians running for cover and a trail of destruction in it's wake.

    Gunner Jurgen's driving skills are.. well, let's not go there.
    Which leads to the important question:
    Is there a Ciaphas Cain unit, and, if not, why not?
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiasaur11 View Post
    Which leads to the important question:
    Is there a Ciaphas Cain unit, and, if not, why not?
    Model-wise... I Googled this earlier, to see if anyone else had made the Salamander diorama. Turned out they hadn't (or my Google-fu is lacking), but it does turn out that the Black Library made a special-edition miniature, details of which can be found on this Warseer thread.

    So far, nobody's written rules for Cain. Maybe he'll turn up in the 5e Guard Codex; after all, Gaunt got a place in the current one. On the other hand, the HERO's personality might be hard to represent in rules. Supposedly there will be a 'Commissar Lord' in the 5e 'dex, which could cover the inspiration he gives to the troops as well as his skills with laspistol and chainsword.
    [hr]
    No worries, Gunslinger! As far as I know, though, the things I mentioned are the same in 4e. The only thing changed for 5e is the inability to Consolidate into close combat in that particular regard.

    And speaking of 5e, I like the new book; doesn't change too much, and the changes it does make are generally pretty good (great to be able to shoot at the Genestealers once they're in my lines!), and the background section is perhaps better than ever (there's a lovely map of an Ork Waaaagh!, notable only because of the fantastic Orky style in which it is drawn).

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    Quote Originally Posted by turkishproverb View Post
    To say nothing of the fact that You'd be amazed the crap you can actually be pulled by using guardsmen in the 3rd and 4th ed codex.
    Do tell... I'm just barely getting my feet wet and would love for some stuff to throw at my friend's heavy infantry focused space marine army. :-P

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    Quote Originally Posted by turkishproverb View Post
    Huh. I used to build my guard armies virtually tankless. And win. Alot.
    Used to. Hmm. "Tanks" for that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by busterswd View Post
    Do tell... I'm just barely getting my feet wet and would love for some stuff to throw at my friend's heavy infantry focused space marine army. :-P
    which artillery is the most cost/efficient? Whirlwinds, or Basilisks?

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    If possible, take the basilisk.

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    Wheee! Played a three-way objective game yesterday. And I think we're getting pretty close to actually playing by the rules!

    Tau vs. Tyranids vs. SMs. We had an objective, and random game length.

    Tyranids had it for the beginning, and due to that, SMs and I teamed up. (unspoken alliance) which I proceeded to break, once the SMs had wrested it from tyranid control.

    Tau accuracy is seriously depressing, but the weapon strength is most satisfying, especially vs. Nids. (S5, T3. Wounds on 2+, I think.) Further, even SMs can't stand up to the withering hails of fire that my 12-unit pulse rifle squad can put down.

    I proceeded to turn on the SMs, gun them down around the objective, and move in to capture it, before rolling 'game end' result on turn six.

    Question: Can I shoot into a melee if none of the units are mine? (nids vs. SMs?)
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    No firing into cc. Period. It would make sense, in this case, but the rules are clear.

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    They'd need a mechanic for resolving who gets shot, and that would be a pain.
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    Question: Can I shoot into a melee if none of the units are mine? (nids vs. SMs?)
    No firing into cc. Period. It would make sense, in this case, but the rules are clear.
    Yes actually, you can - page 273 of the 5th Edition Rulebook describes the "Broken Alliance" scenario, between 3 different players. Player 1, for example, *is* allowed to shoot into close combat so long as the only combatants involved are from the armies of Player 2 and Player 3.

    You simply roll to hit as normal, and then randomise who the target is: 1-3 means you've hit a model belonging to Player 2, 4-6 is Player 3, while template weapons hit as normal.

    Simple and effective
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiasaur11 View Post
    Which leads to the important question:
    Is there a Ciaphas Cain unit, and, if not, why not?
    No, because the current codex is so damn old that he wasn't really around when it was released.

    When we get the new one, I'd be astonished if he wasn't in, because 1) he provides a nice, regiment-specific hero and 2) all Guard series that long are either spawned off of a character or get their own. (See Gaunt, the Last Chancers.)

    @^-However, this is a house rule only; you are still not allowed to shoot into combats with your own men, and even to shoot into enemy combats you would have to establish it as a rule before the game begins.
    Last edited by LordVader; 2008-08-21 at 06:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Yes actually, you can - page 273 of the 5th Edition Rulebook describes the "Broken Alliance" scenario, between 3 different players. Player 1, for example, *is* allowed to shoot into close combat so long as the only combatants involved are from the armies of Player 2 and Player 3.
    Argh, 5th edition! That does make sense, I guess.

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    So I've been putting a watchful eye on the Codex: Chaos Space Marines and have been really wanting to play it out. My issue is that I don't like Daemons, or Possessed or basically anything mutated by Chaos. My solution to this is to use Space Marine models with some very subtle conversions that hint at Chaos taint (From a fluff standpoint, the Company has only recently been turned to Chaos and even they don't know it yet).

    What I'm wondering is how effective would a Chaos Space Marine be using only the few types of units that have a direct Space Marine counterpart? As in Chaos Lord = Space Marine Commander, Chaos Termie = Termie, Raptor = Assault Marine, Havoc = Devastator, etc etc.

    The army that I want to build is assault based (in order to contrast my current army of Eldar).

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    Your plan is perfectly viable Psychotic - All normal Space Marine units have a Chaos equivalent, with the exception of a few types of Tank, Scouts and the Land Speeder, all of which are completely easy to do without

    There is an alternative of course, and that is to simply play a normal Space Marine Army and paint it up as though it was Chaos. If anyone asks, tell them it's a custom Chapter of your own creation that has only recently fallen to Chaos. The rules needn't be any different to normal SM's, but you still get your evil pile of psychopaths without daemons!
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    Wraith - I've considered the alternative, but the (cliffnotes-style) backstory behind my Chaos Space Marine force is that they were a Black Templar crusade who had bitten off more than they could chew and it took a huge toll on their numbers. In the their last stand, the Templar's leader took it upon himself to claim a blade of supreme power in order to defeat the enemy. Little did he know that the weapon he wielded was a Daemon Weapon, which slowly began to whisper to him...

    Basically, I wanted to do a different take on Chaos. Rather then create a generic competitive list and build the background around it, I did the fluff first. I wanted a gray shade of Chaos to contrast the grays of the Imperium, the Eldar and so on. The emphasis is that Chaos is not always in your face with a chainaxe and screaming daemons. Sometimes Chaos is an actual reasonable, righteous cause.

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    There was a thing in White Dwarf a fair while back that you could maybe use... the Relictors, and specifically, using Chaos-tainted weaponry with normal Marines.

    It could help, from what I understand of what you're trying to do, as long as your opponent agrees. It IS a bit outdated, but not that far...

    Try issue 295.

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    This is gonna sound like a bizarre question, but it's almost entirely for Tyranid players, but what's a decent cheap (model wise) army that can be assembled? I'd like to start playing this but my money is...limited at best so I want to make what I get count.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran View Post
    This is gonna sound like a bizarre question, but it's almost entirely for Tyranid players, but what's a decent cheap (model wise) army that can be assembled? I'd like to start playing this but my money is...limited at best so I want to make what I get count.
    Well, vanilla Space Marines have lots of plastic models, which are far cheaper than metal models; on the other hand, there are approximately 7 billion Space Marine players so you might want to avoid them. Space Marines also get tons of battleforce type sets with lots of models discounted.

    Daemonhunters can get away with perhaps the fewest models, but those models will cost you an arm and a leg, since they're all metal.

    Cadian-styled Imperial Guard will give you lots of models relatively cheaply, but you also need lots of models to play. They have a good amount of plastic, and though commanders and the like are metal, you can fairly easily convert plastic models to represent them instead (although I was helped by the Forge World upgrade parts, and converting commanders otherwise would be a pain).

    The Tau Empire and the Tyranids both have a combination of metal and plastic sets, and the Tau would probably be cheaper because you need a lot of Tyranid models. On the other hand, you could save on your HQ choice for the Nids, thanks to the Broodlord.

    Orks also need a lot of models, and they have quite a bit of metal spread about their ranks, but the standard Boyz are plastic. Also note that the new starter box set gives you a bunch of cheap Orks if you can find a Marine player to take the Marine bits.

    Those are the armies that come to mind, but somebody will probably point out some cheap army that I've missed. Don't touch Daemons, Witch Hunters, or Dark Eldar, because they all ask for lots and lots of metal models.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tactics

    This is gonna sound like a bizarre question, but it's almost entirely for Tyranid players, but what's a decent cheap (model wise) army that can be assembled? I'd like to start playing this but my money is...limited at best so I want to make what I get count.
    I'm not sure how you mean this - do you mean you want a cheap Tyranid army, or just any army in particular?

    In the case of the former, looks for second-hand armies.

    I have $300 worth of Wraithguard and Wraithlords in my Eldar Army, for which I paid about $170 and then another $10 for a bottle of paint remover. Even if you want to buy unit-by-unit, it's much cheaper to do, though occasionally you can find a really good "2000 for $50" deal if you know where to look.

    I recommend eBay as a starting point, and what you should look for are eBay Shops that sell plastic kits without boxes. These are usually at around $10 cheaper than buying new, or even from another shop that sells them boxed.

    Not a particularly good way of supporting Games Workshop, but quite frankly I think they can look after themselves while I pass on my own wisdom to new players.

    In the case of the latter, however, an all-plastic Tyranid force is never going to be the cheapest of armies, due to sheer size needed and the monetary expense of the larger, points-eating models.
    Probably the best thing to do is buy a couple of of the Boxed sets, which include several different types of 'Nid both big and small, and are generally a better deal than buying each unit separately. Just be sure to find out what is in each box and then write out an army list with those figures in it to be sure that nothing goes to waste, and it probably won;t be too hard or expensive to hit a decent sized AND effective army.
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