Chasing the Philosopher's Stone: N. Jolly's guide to the Pathfinder Alchemist

[deuxhero]

While worshipping an evil deity isn’t great for most people, it’s a flavor requirement for an impossibly good feat for you.

Not actually a problem. Feat says worship, not patron (and some things do indeed say patron as a requirement, some in the same book even), and Pathfinder's default setting DOES allow polytheism for non-divine classes. Faiths and Philosophies lays out explicit "pantheons" just to prove it. While none include her the existence of the ascended "pantheon" (which has members that vary by worshiper) says they are just example sets instead of something magically binding.

edit: Weapon Versatility is a neat feat for martial types, but has wording that overlooks splash weapons (which includes bombs) and is to your benefit (thanks for graystone on the paizo boards for pointing this out)

When wielding a weapon with which you have Weapon Focus, you can shift your grip as a swift action so that your weapon deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage instead of the damage type normally dealt by that weapon.

This 1 feat (and weapon focus for the requirement) means any splash weapon can do bludgeoning, piercing or slashing damage, which is... interesting. Feat is probably worth a mention for more martial type alchemists anyways.

[Trenien]

Hi, I have a questions for all alchemist specialists :
in a short while, I'm going to play a series of games for which I intend to make a bomber alchemist. We'll be starting at level 1 and, depending how well we play, we'll end up level 3 to 4. I doubt I'm going to play that character afterwards ; in effect, that means I'll never have access to 2nd level extracts nor will I have more than 1 or 2 infusion (but level 4 appears unlikely anyway).

I've mostly planned the 1st level, with a Tiefling with 20 INT and 5 CHA (compensated throught the Student of Philosophy trait). However, I'm wondering about level 2 or 3, and whether it would be a good idea to take a 1 level dip into arcane bomber, to gain even more flexibility (3 1st level spells, which can be converted to bonus to hit and dammages if necessary). Considering there is no loss as pertain to the bombs, I don't see a negative, but there may be something I've missed.

Any thought ?

[N. Jolly]

Sup all, finally updated the guide with a lot of new stuff, it's looking pretty hype now. Check it out if you're looking to build THE BEST Alchemist, or at least second best, as no one's gonna beat my Alchemist.

[Raven777]

On the subject of piling on Natural Attacks for the Feral build, there are ways beyond Ragebred or an Helm of the Mammoth lord to acquire more. You just have to go Demon hunting. These are all Wondrous Items. The Brazen Hooves will give you a hoof attack and the Crown of Horns will give you a gore attack. You can also pick up some Wicked Wings along the way and some Demon Talons if you want claws when not under a Mutagen, you silly hideous stitched abomination you.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Some stuff from the ACG: holy weapon balm is crazy good, effectively making Ghost Salt weapon blanch obsolete, and the Restful property is a solid alternative to a Ring of Sustenance. Also, something I should bring up is another armor choice, darkleaf cloth quilted armor. It isn't quite as flexible as the others with a max Dex bonus of +10, but has no other penalties (including ASF chance, should that be necessary), gives a +1 armor bonus, and gives nonmagical DR 3/- against ranged piercing weapons.

[felinoel]

Oh hey I've been using your Google doc for a while now, didn't realize that there was a Giantitp thread for it too!
Thanks for it btw!

Also, Alchemists get a lot of fun stuff for potions, alchemical allocation, extend potion, eternal potion, potion tattoo spell, etc, what would be good potions for alchemists to invest in? I built the bomb/spellslinger type so I am more interested in that but the guide could use this info for both types.

[N. Jolly]

On the subject of piling on Natural Attacks for the Feral build, there are ways beyond Ragebred or an Helm of the Mammoth lord to acquire more. You just have to go Demon hunting. These are all Wondrous Items. The Brazen Hooves will give you a hoof attack and the Crown of Horns will give you a gore attack. You can also pick up some Wicked Wings along the way and some Demon Talons if you want claws when not under a Mutagen, you silly hideous stitched abomination you.

God, we can't give the Vivi anything else, or else it'll win the game. Like literally, it will just WIN pathfinder, and I can't have someone do that...not again...

Some stuff from the ACG: holy weapon balm is crazy good, effectively making Ghost Salt weapon blanch obsolete, and the Restful property is a solid alternative to a Ring of Sustenance. Also, something I should bring up is another armor choice, darkleaf cloth quilted armor. It isn't quite as flexible as the others with a max Dex bonus of +10, but has no other penalties (including ASF chance, should that be necessary), gives a +1 armor bonus, and gives nonmagical DR 3/- against ranged piercing weapons.

Thanks for the info, reading up on some of it now. I wouldn't say it invalidates GS weapon blanch, since you can have GS on your weapon for a long time and not need to worry, while Holy Weapon Balm is a 'before we kick in the door' sort of item. It's still good, but GS has its use too. I'll be sure to include both though. I'll be sure to throw in some of the other stuff too. Let me know if there's any more specific stuff done to help the Alch, since looking through feats/traits/magical items is exhausting.

Oh hey I've been using your Google doc for a while now, didn't realize that there was a Giantitp thread for it too!
Thanks for it btw!

Also, Alchemists get a lot of fun stuff for potions, alchemical allocation, extend potion, eternal potion, potion tattoo spell, etc, what would be good potions for alchemists to invest in? I built the bomb/spellslinger type so I am more interested in that but the guide could use this info for both types.

No problem, it's easy to miss that there's links to the thread here and on Paizo too. Also a donation link...*COUGH*

I've still not gotten a reply on if tattoo spells take up magic item slots, although there's already a section in the guide for potions to invest in, especially for Alchemical Allocation specialist (which should be all of them.)

I'm noticing a lot of my pictures are dead, I'm going to have to change that later, but everything else is working well.

All new extracts from new books are up and running on the guide, and I have to say, I'm very pleased at a lot of them.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I'd say ghost salt is overall better for ammunition, but holy weapon balm is very versatile, at the cost of time being effective. Also, cheaper. Another ACG goodie is are the dust knuckles, a way to poison unarmed strikes. Or, if you spring for the 'diamond dust vials', its a DC 20 reflex save to blind for a round.

[felinoel]

God, we can't give the Vivi anything else, or else it'll win the game. Like literally, it will just WIN pathfinder, and I can't have someone do that...not again...



Thanks for the info, reading up on some of it now. I wouldn't say it invalidates GS weapon blanch, since you can have GS on your weapon for a long time and not need to worry, while Holy Weapon Balm is a 'before we kick in the door' sort of item. It's still good, but GS has its use too. I'll be sure to include both though. I'll be sure to throw in some of the other stuff too. Let me know if there's any more specific stuff done to help the Alch, since looking through feats/traits/magical items is exhausting.



No problem, it's easy to miss that there's links to the thread here and on Paizo too. Also a donation link...*COUGH*

I've still not gotten a reply on if tattoo spells take up magic item slots, although there's already a section in the guide for potions to invest in, especially for Alchemical Allocation specialist (which should be all of them.)

I'm noticing a lot of my pictures are dead, I'm going to have to change that later, but everything else is working well.

All new extracts from new books are up and running on the guide, and I have to say, I'm very pleased at a lot of them.

I remember reading that that particular spell occupies the chest tattoo slot?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-sp.../tattoo-potion

[N. Jolly]

I'd say ghost salt is overall better for ammunition, but holy weapon balm is very versatile, at the cost of time being effective. Also, cheaper. Another ACG goodie is are the dust knuckles, a way to poison unarmed strikes. Or, if you spring for the 'diamond dust vials', its a DC 20 reflex save to blind for a round.

I really have to say, diamond dust vials should blind for longer than a round.

Also lowered some ratings including Fast Bombs, really seeing the problem with spamming multiple bombs.

[Woden]

This guide was first posted a few months after I'd rolled my alchemist, and I found it a super useful resource as he leveled. Thanks for all the work you've put into it. : ) And now that I've played a bomber for a couple of years and have reached level 20, I have some feedback on the guide.

Discoveries
* You rated Dispelling Bomb orange, which I can't agree with. It's definitely situational because lots of enemies don't wear spells, but I think you're underestimating the power of stacking Dispelling plus [nearly any other debuffing discovery] to double-debuff with each bomb (or triple-debuff, if you stack Dispelling plus Madness plus some other X). I personally have had great success with Dispelling + Confusion as an alpha strike to neuter three or four of the meanest-looking types on the field. Dispelling + Force is excellent for enemies immune to confusion, because the knockdown effect still fires, so they lose spells and then need to spend their next turn getting up and moving instead of moving and hitting.

* The Cognatogen chain also received an orange rating from you (despite being blue for bombers) thanks to the ability damage it hits you with. But, depending on how your GM reads the interaction between cognatogens and the Vest of Stable Mutation, that might not be an issue. The Cognatogen description explicitly calls out that they are functionally identical to mutagens except for what stats they affect, so the vest applying to cognatogens is entirely reasonable. Whether the vest would also prevent the ability damage, that's more debatable.

* Doppelganger Simulacrum: you note that you'll be at half-strength when using this discovery, which RAW seems to disagree with. The discovery text uses the word simulacrum, but doesn't otherwise have any points of commonality with the spell by that name. As written, the discovery seems to allow you to make exact duplicates of yourself, which means 'full strength.' In addition, you entirely missed the "it's an extra life for only 1K" aspect of it, which is a pretty snazzy aspect. Make a doppelganger, stick your original body in a safe place and transfer your items to the copy, and you're kinda-sorta deathproof. (Your buddies will have to retrieve your items from the dead doppelganger, though.)

Feats
* Your writeup of Hammer the Gap mentions that it provides extra to-hit. It does not. While the feat could still be quite nice for a multiattacking Hyde, 2-5 extra bomb damage in a round is almost certainly not worth a feat to a bomber who could take Extra Discovery instead. That's particularly true for an alchemist who has debuffing and CC bombs (which is to say, every bomber), because they’re not going to be targeting one enemy with their entire full attack unless it’s a BBEG, in which case 2-5 damage is pretty minuscule.

* You typoed "Amateur Investigator" as "amature."

Extracts
* You red-rated both Bomber’s Eye and Longshot, but when they are combined in an admixture vial, that’s a third-level extract that doubles the range of your bombs. Given the 20' range increment of bombs, doubled bomb range is pretty unspectacular by itself. But where these extracts begin to show their worth is if your bomber has taken both the Splash Weapon Mastery and Distance Thrower feats. Combined, they eliminate distance penalties until the fourth range increment, and then the penalty only increases by -1 each increment thereafter. With those two feats, a bomber’s unpenalized range is 60’, and with the combined Bomber’s Eye/Longshot extract, that doubles to 120’, with only a -1 penalty for every 40' further than that. That’s worth keeping a third-level extract slot occupied in case of long-range engagement, in my experience.

* Your writeup on the See Alignment extract has typos.

* For Tattoo Potion, you incorrectly assume that the spell tattoo uses your chest item slot. The Inscribe Magical Tattoo feat says “Magic tattoos must be placed on a part of the body normally able to hold a magic item slot, but they do not count against or interfere with magic items worn on those slots.” With that said, Tattoo Potion is pretty bad, but it's bad because there aren't really any potions good enough to make expensively handy, not because it occupies important slots. (It's worth noting that Alchemical Allocation would arguably allow you to use the Tattoo Potion for multiple people before it evaporates.) (Too bad it's still a pretty weaksauce extract.)

* You only rated Fluid Form green (and orange for bombers!), which seems to be because you didn't take the Infusion discovery into account. Fluid Form is one of the best infusions around. Hand that to your melee buddies along with Greater Invisibility and they'll love you forever.

* Universal Formula is red-rated because you didn't consider its synergy with Delayed Consumption. Having any of your 3rd-or-lower extracts available as an immediate action is fantastic, and using it that way defrays the cost of the material component, because you only need to re-prepare it every couple of weeks or so.

* Monstrous Physique III is green-rated, when I think it deserves higher, especially as an infusion. Turning your fighter into a huge Thriae Queen is a wee bit awesome, not least because they can still use their [now larger] weapons.

* Plague Bearer is red-rated, but I feel it deserves far higher when considered as an infusion. Given to someone who is going to be standing next to living enemies (for instance, your greater-invisible rogue or your fighter (or both!)), it’s 16+ rounds of completely free debuff attempts made at the alchemist’s DC (which can be pretty spectacular for a cognatogen-using bomber).

* You rated Transformation orange, but as an infusion given to, say, the rogue, it has tremendous potential. A greater-invisible rogue making sneak attacks with a full BAB? That’s just mean.

Archetypes
* I disagree with the orange rating given to Mindchemist. For a dedicated bomber and skill-monkey, getting the Cognatogen discovery for free is excellent, and Perfect Recall only enhances the skill-monkey role. Run into a creature? Don't worry, the alchemist knows what it is. Mindchemists have a lot of skill points to go around, so spending one on each of the miscellaneous knowledge skills is plenty cheap enough to afford, and with Perfect Recall, one is all you really need.

Items
* The entry on Poisoner’s Gloves should note that your party members can benefit from wearing them too. Two infusions in one round (or three, with use of an admixture vial) is great for everybody, especially the rogues and fighters, who really want to get to the hitting fast.

Potions
* A CL20 potion of Heroism is well worth considering, because with the Extend Potion discovery (which you’re getting on the way to Eternal Potion anyway), that gives you 400 minutes of Heroism for the cost of an Alchemical Allocation.

[Prince Gimli]

A note on the Ragebred Skinwalker: From what I read on the SRD, the Skinwalker must choose ONE of the bestial features that belong with their respective variant:

The regular skinwalker reads:
"Each time a skinwalker assumes bestial form, she can choose to gain one of the following features:

2 claw attacks that each deal 1d4 points of damage
Darkvision to a range of 60 feet.
+1 racial bonus to natural armor."

The Ragebred's bestial features read:

+10 foot racial bonus to base speed
Gore attack that deals 1d6 points of damage
2 hoof attacks that each deal 1d4 points of damage
Scent to a range of 30 feet

Going by this, it seems you would need to choose either the gore attack, or the 2 hoof attacks. With the 3 attacks of Feral Mutagen, that would bring you up to a total of 5 natural attacks.

Am I missing something, or is this how it works? Still, even 5 instead of 6 natural attacks with sneak attack is still ridiculously good if you can manage to get them all off.'

[grarrrg]

A note on the Ragebred Skinwalker: From what I read on the SRD, the Skinwalker must choose ONE of the bestial features that belong with their respective variant:
...
Am I missing something

Yes.
Extra Feature Feat
"When you change shape to your bestial form, you may choose one additional feature from those listed in your shapechange ability and gain that benefit while in bestial form."

[Hogsy]

I see that there are no ratings regarding the Gun Chemist, since it was probably not released at the time you made the guide. What is your assessment of it? It basically replaces poison stuff and locks your bombs with firearms but with Trench Fighter 3 and the lvl 8 Gun Chemist Discovery you basically add both Int & Dex to damage for tons of damage
(1d8+6 plus 4d6+4 for 30 damage per hit on average with ok stats)

This makes me think it is a good MB nova archetype, and if it works with Grenadier, then you can also add 2 alchemical items with the Funnel for even more damage or debuffs.

Anyway, I was wondering what the general consensus is on this archetype.

[saithor]

I'd like to point out that Potion Glutton apparently got nerfed in a Paizo FAQ, it can no longer apply to Extracts and has been changed to a Move Action instead of a Swift Action.

[Wyntyr7]

Absolutely love this guide, and have used it and the other N. Jolly guides for help with multiple characters. But I have a quick (possibly dumb) question:

In the Google doc, it has the Wizard arcane discovery "Knowledge is Power" listed as a feat in the Other Sources section. Is this an oversight, or is there some way to actually obtain it as a non-Wizard?