Pathfinder Grab Bag Competition Chat Thread II: New Thread smell included!

[gr8artist]

Congrats, you did really well. I hope to see more material from you as the contest continues.
Regarding my own entry, I have replaced the Shalites (who were deemed too elemental, and not really constructs) with the necromite golem. Still finishing up details, but its a golem that uses weaponized, necromantic axiomite dust to alter itself and defeat its foes.

[caledscratcher]

Oh, hey, I'm back. I've actually sorta been back for quite some time, just lurking. Sorry 'bout that. But on the bright side, I'll have a new race up for you guys soon! It'll be a treat, that's for sure. Hehehe... :D

[gr8artist]

caled, you wouldn't happen to want back into the campaign, would you? We're reaching a point where there's an opportunity to add new characters to the dungeon, and we're looking for some more people to fill the ranks, because three is a little low. You already have a character rolled up and everything.

Also, does the necromite golem seem too undead for the contest? I have been debating taking another stab at the same concept, but using not-undead axiomite dust or something similar to accomplish the mechanics.

Lastly, I vaguely remember mentioning doing some artwork for the contest winner. Let me see....

So, I drew a picture for my Nightmare Priest entry. It's been heavily edited in the GNU image editing software (free, knock-off photoshop), but I really like how it turned out.
Moosebite tells me I should draw more, and I could use the extra practice. So, I'm going to offer to draw a picture of the winning entry in all current and future competitions. Entries I like may also get a picture, if I have time. Pictures can be pencil (black and white, I can do this in a few hours), inked (using a pen to trace the pencil sketch for better detail and crispness), colored (an inked image with color added via colored pencils, markers, or crayons [because freakin' crayons are awesome, ok]), or edited (scanned and given special effects via photo-editing software).

I can't do OotS style avatars yet, but I can do simple, cartoony pictures as well, if desired.

So, the winner was dragonjek's Biblios race. How would you like your artwork, sir?
As an update, I have the softward to make avatars, but I'm still clumsy with it and learning slow. My first avvy was... unspeakable.

Also, Tanta's been swamped with classes, so I've taken up the trophy making.
I think we need trophies for 24: Taste My Steel, 25: Tactical Genius, and 26: Pick a God and Pray... am I missing anything?

[caledscratcher]

Oof, sorry gr8, I'm moving into my new apartment tomorrow and then I'm gonna have a bunch of school stuff going on, in addition to the two games I'm already in and the Iron Gods game I'm gm'ing. Add in my freelancing and homebrewing and I've basically got no time. :(

[gr8artist]

No problem.

My buddy said the Necromite Golem is too complicated. He does have several less-crucial abilities tacked on. All-around Vision, Compression, Fortification, and Necromite Blast aren't 100% necessary for the creature to function as intended. Do you think I should get rid of a couple of these abilities? I'm thinking AaV and NB can be dropped and the golem's self-modifying nature would still be preserved through Compression and Fortification.

Also, who would be interested in doing the team-up round next? Should we make a separate thread to try and gather new homebrewers?

[Milo v3]

Also, who would be interested in doing the team-up round next? Should we make a separate thread to try and gather new homebrewers?

Although I wasn't gonna do it initially, I'll probably need to learn how to deal with humans some day, I'll put my hand in to do some team-up stuff next round. Should be rather possible with my exams finally over.

[dragonjek]

Although I wasn't gonna do it initially, I'll probably need to learn how to deal with humans some day, I'll put my hand in to do some team-up stuff next round. Should be rather possible with my exams finally over.

There are an awful lot of humans on this planet. You'll probably want to figure out how to handle them if you want to blend in.

I'm in for a team-up, although I'm not certain if making another thread is necessary. I suppose we could try it out as a test, but I don't see why it couldn't just be blended into the normal grab bag competition.

[Milo v3]

I'm in for a team-up, although I'm not certain if making another thread is necessary. I suppose we could try it out as a test, but I don't see why it couldn't just be blended into the normal grab bag competition.

I believe the new thread would just be for recruiting more homebrewers, not a separate competition.

There are an awful lot of humans on this planet. You'll probably want to figure out how to handle them if you want to blend in.

Blending in is boring

[dragonjek]

Blending in is boring

True, but it is an effective way to avoid being vivisected. Which is, generally speaking, an unpleasant experience.

[gr8artist]

Roster of Players Interested in a Teamwork/Double-Up Round.

1. gr8artist
2. dragonjek
3. Milo V3

Let me know if you're interested. If we can get about 8 players or so, then we'll actually have enough for a contest.
The next phase would be to pick teams, and we'd need to know how to do that. Some proposed methods...

Option A – Rolling. Would-be contestants take turns using the {roll} function to see who their team-mate would be (from the numbered list). If we're concerned about team balance (not letting the regular winners be on a team together) then we can start with the players with the fewest wins first.
Option B – Negotiation. We just talk and see who'd be interested in teaming up with someone else. While this might make for the most synergistic teams, it has a (small) chance of offending some contestants, much like being the last kid picked for a sports team.
Option C – Draft. We pick a turn order, and the players take turns in that order picking their team-mate from the available list. For example, we roll for pick order and whoever gets the highest result picks his team-mate first. Then whoever had the 2nd highest result picks his team-mate (unless he was already picked by the first contestant). This has the same possible problem as Option B.
Option D – Voting. Each player rates the other players in the order that he'd most like to team with them. Players that want to be with each-other are then teamed up, starting with the most synergistic (rating each other highest) and working our way down. Still a chance of the geeky-kid problem, but this way it's a little more fair and less problematic. The votes would be secret, and teams would be revealed simultaneously.
Option E – Balance. Players with the most wins/points are paired with the players with the least wins/points. Mechanically fair, compared to the other options.

Any methods not covered by some variant of the above?

[malonkey1]

I'm game for a teamup round. I think rolling or negotiation would be best as far as determining teams.

[dragonjek]

I think Option A is the best choice.

The others have their temptations, but I think that Options B, C, and D are likely to result in a division between the regular participants (who at the least all know one another and are somewhat familiar with one another's work) and the newcomers who won't be as familiar. Option E is also nice, but the issue there is that contest points alone aren't enough to determine skill--someone with a huge portfolio of homebrew but who hasn't participated in contests could wind up paired with one of the regular victors to merge into some sort of titanic homebrewing god.

Option A, although uncontrolled, has the fairness of randomness.

[caledscratcher]

A team-up round sounds great! I'm all for rolling, as well.

[gr8artist]

Team-up roster

• gr8artist
• malonkey1
• dragonjek
• Milo V3
• caledscratcher

So, I know I've had more draft and scrapped entry concepts for this month's contest than I think anyone has had in any month to date, but I've come up with a new one that I really like. It's a refinement of something I'd mentioned earlier, force golems/constructs that are semi-tangible, like the objects Green Lantern can make with his power ring. I'm still working out the details, but here are the highlights.
It would likely be an ethereal construct, able to become solid by forming a shell or armor out of force (like little wall of forces molded into armor plates). The ability to switch forms would give it a lot of mobility and situational defensive perks.
No strength, but a variable strength bonus. As an ethereal creature, it would have no strength score. But it will have a pool of kinetic energy that it can spend for force-related spells and abilities (magic missile, etc.). It gets a bonus to strength equal to the number of points in its pool. So, effectively, it loses strength to fuel its powers and abilities.
Kinetic absorption. The construct will have a good deflection bonus to AC and Spell Resistance. If it blocks an attack with this deflection bonus, then it regains some points to its kinetic energy pool. If it ignores a spell with its SR, then it regains points equal to the spell's level.

So yeah, a giant construct with variable strength and defenses that absorbs the energy from your attacks to empower itself.

[Almarck]

Alright, so I've been paying attention to the contest for a while and this time I wanted to join in, even signing up to the forums as a result. I would hope to do well in this competition and would wish you all the best of luck.

I would appreciate comments, concerns, and the like.

P.S. Milo v3, did Asura's Wrath have anything to do with the Mandjet? It just strikes me as something as an influence every time I read it.

[gr8artist]

Starting at the bottom and working up.

Spoiler: The Risen Men

Show

Upgraded Body is not good enough to necessitate character level 3rd. I imagine a character could upgrade himself in this way during his training or while taking his first class level. If you don't want it to be available at first level, might I suggest a GP expenditure? For example, you must invest 1000 GP in the modification of your body, over the course of 1 month. At the end of this time, you are considered medium size.
Is there an ability score adjustment from small to medium? I'm assuming not, since the small version has no Dex bonus or Str penalty.

I like that you put Living Essence in there. Good call.
Hungering Essence: Whenever a living creature with hit dice no less than half of yours dies, you gain temporary hit points equal to the amount of hit dice it possessed. These hitpoints fade in 1 hour.

Part of me wants Efficient Repairs and Living Essence to oppose each other. Not for balance, but because I like the idea of having to choose whether to be more machine or more living. It's a personal impression, having nothing to do with mechanics, likability, or balance.

Durability Enhancement probably doesn't need the level restriction, and certainly doesn't need it that steep. 3/7/11 would probably work better (you don't get feats at 10th level). I'm also not really sure what a rogue would be aiming at, given that your race are hollow.

I personally do not think every race should have a favored class option for every class, and think it was bad form on Paizo's part to do so with its core races. You'll notice, however, that the uncommon and featured races do not have an option for every class, and I think that's more fitting with the theme of favored classes, which is a 3.5 notion carried over, to represent that certain races tend to gravitate toward certain roles (halfling rogues and dwarven clerics, for example). I would also advise trying to come up with some more memorable FCBs. The ones you have are obviously balanced (though I'm not sure how the monk one would work with multiple ranks or multiple hits) but the race is quite interesting and deserves more flavorful bonuses. Consider raising armor (Ftr), damage reduction (Bbn), or unarmed damage (Bwl). The gunslinger, skald, rogue, and monk FCBs are cool, give us more like them.

Double check your weight modifiers. I think the intention is that whatever you roll for extra height is multiplied by a certain value (8 as you have listed). A simple "x8" would work in those boxes. And shouldn't the race weigh roughly as much as a small suit of armor? Maybe two or three times as much, sure, since they're thicker and hardier.

The artificer trait should grant a bonus to all craft checks relating to armor or Risen, or else it's not really worth taking. Perhaps grant it a different type of bonus, like 1d8 extra health on a successful repair check. I'd also consider a mending SLA, though it might be too good of a boon.

I feel like there are inherent qualities that are missing here, like hardness and resistance to fatigue. And why are they not immune to bleed damage? It's like the most minor status effect.

Can they drink a potion to gain its benefits?

I would take out caster selection, and have them default to constructs if a spell would have differing effects based on type.

I would give them some skill bonuses, like Knowledge (History or Engineering) or Craft. Disable Device seems appropriate, as does Use Magic Device, perhaps as an alternate racial trait. They should also get a bonus to identify the properties of artifacts or ancient magical items.

Lastly, I don't think you need to capitalize Ritual, Summer, and Winter in your opening descriptions.

All in all it's a fun race that I thoroughly enjoy, but it feels a little dull in the mechanics department. You have amazing backstory and fluff, well-thought relations and society, but when a player sits down to roll one up it feels a little like a living metal man, not metal enough to warrant a new playstyle, nor human enough to fit into traditional roles. I know the race builder puts "Constructs" as something of a 20-point race type, which makes it really hard to fit one in with the common 8-10 point races, and your hybridization (treated as an undead sometimes, or a human sometimes) really helps there.
Something you may want to consider, is playing up the effects of time and the wear and tear they've gone through. By making them rusted, you can get away with making them metal without having hardness. Then give them feats to show material improvements, like replacing their metal parts with newly crafted steel, mythral, or adamantine for an expense of coin. If I'm playing Alphonse Elric, I want to be a towering behemoth of invulnerable metal, shrugging off the attacks of mortal foes as I hammer their faces apart with blows from my gauntlet. If I have to spend 8 or 10 feats to do so, I will, because it's cool. I can't help but struggle with the impression that this awesome race gets halfway to awesome mechanics and then kinda... flames out. Don't get me wrong, flavor beats crunch when it really comes down to it, but the idea of being a metal man carries certain connotations and not living up to them seems like a disservice.

Regardless of the direction you go after reading all that, I think you made an impressive first showing and think you'll do quite well.
Want me to add you to the team-up roster?

I'll try and do reviews this week. I could have sworn I'd already done them, but apparently not.
I'm so far behind on everything.

[Prehysterical]

With a little less than a week before the contest is over, does anyone have any thoughts or criticisms of my Clockwork Guardian entry?

[Milo v3]

P.S. Milo v3, did Asura's Wrath have anything to do with the Mandjet? It just strikes me as something as an influence every time I read it.

Nope, transformers and cyborgs.

[Almarck]

Nope, transformers and cyborgs.

Coulda fooled me. Thinking on it, that game has basically got Transformers and cyborgs with a very divine theme. Mandjet really reminds me of that.

Prehysterical: You currently are suffering from perhaps the same problem as me. There simply needs to be... more so to speak to make your construct stand out. Perhaps consider... more exotic weaponry and armoroptions or having them under the assumption they are deployed as squads.


Read the post, but too long to copy or "rtp;tlc"
As for you, gr8artist, your post was very insightful and helpful to my purposes, thank you.

I suppose my biggest worry was... overdoing the construct advantages and wanting to compensate for them too highly without putting as much time to create more backstory related advantages.

To that extent, I'm probably going to ramp up their inhuman aspects when I have the spare time to do so, and apply certain corrections that you suggested.

Also... the main reason I never included an entry about potions is because, I am unsure how pathfinder handles it as well. It's the main reason I specifically added they take full damage from negative energy, I am simply unsure. I suppose, the answer is "yes" since they have a soul for the magic to apply to.

As for your question about sneak attack, this didn't get posted up because I didn't know where to fit it, the reason why they take SA damage is for the same reason Risen also take bleed damage. Think of th their suits are basically giant diving suits that house the entirity of their being while underwater. A critical hit, sneak attack, or bleed damage is basically a very serious oxygen leak in their gear. Also, constructs are apparently not immune to SA or Crit damage, so there's that.

Some interesting notes.
The Risen Men were originally Medium sized and in the original planning stages, they were going to be digital machines, basically AI like beings created via brain uploading. That changed when I was influenced by previews of the game Endless Legend. I also toyed with the idea of letting them take damage from BOTH negative and positive energy, and were only healed by Clerics or those with effects linking them to the artifical.

I also literally copy pasted Favored class bonuses from the core races, thinking that that would be a smart idea, but yeah, you are right, I will need to change some of those. Namely any thing to do with extra spells or doesn't help with the theme of being a survivalist.

I'll take you up on your offer, Gr8, provided I have the time for it. It's likely I would, but it's also likely in any collab we do, I'll likely end up thinking up crazy lore justifications.

[gr8artist]

In the "Creating New Races" section of the pfsrd you can find this nugget under the "Construct" type traits.

Constructs do not breathe, eat, or sleep, unless they want to gain some beneficial effect from one of these activities. This means that a construct can drink potions to benefit from their effects and can sleep in order to regain spells, but neither of these activities is required to survive or stay in good health.

Your exclusion of this clarification is what prompted me to ask. I think your decision to have negative energy affect them is appropriate, as they are living, but curious since they detect as undead. Necromancers will be SO confused.
...
I want to roll a Risen Necromancer now. He'll be mentally unstable, and constantly making 4th wall references, like the cast of OotS.

It's true that PF removed the constructs' immunity to SA and crits, but I seem to remember that a large portion of constructs were given that immunity when appropriate for their design. A robot with mechanical parts, for example, could be disrupted with a giant monkey wrench, while an animated chair just... won't. So it's no longer an immunity trait of the creature type, but rather of the specific creature's build. Given that you're little more than hollow armor, I think that SA immunity (or at least resistance) makes sense. If you don't want to include the immunity, for obvious balance reasons, I'd recommend a short description of what parts of the body might make suitable targets to sneak attack. For example, a line like "The risen's interior is filled with pulleys, levers, and pistons that cause serious mechanical harm when damaged."
My fiance' asked, what happens when you're the target of an object-targeting spell that affects the objects wearer, like heat metal or burning disarm?

And, to be clear, I think we are planning to roll randomly to determine teams. Although I certainly wouldn't mind being on a team with you, I didn't mean to imply that I was asking you to be on a team with me. I'm not sure that you're misunderstanding me, as I have a hard time translating inflection in text.

"rtp;tlc" ... what?

Mandjet, Candy Witch, Clockwork Guardian, Anbroid, and Crucible reviews coming soon. I swear I though I already did half of those.

[dragonjek]

I'll take you up on your offer, Gr8, provided I have the time for it. It's likely I would, but it's also likely in any collab we do, I'll likely end up thinking up crazy lore justifications.

Judging from what's been said so far, I think we're going to be rolling to decide partners on the collaboration contest.

[Almarck]

Yeah, just realized it. Oh well, how are we going to select in what order people roll in? Alphabet?
Everyone rolls a number and those that are nearest go together?

"rtp;tlc" by the way is a joke on the "tl;dr" accroynm. Basically it means "Read The Post, but it was Too Long to Copy"

Anyways. I've added 5 new feats that are possibly major game changers for how the race plays. (for some reason I wrote class earlier weird.)

Also, did some clarification on how SA works by attaching that to the physical description. It'll remind you a little of how Al was bound to his armor I think.
I also added a note detailing how... being made of odd substances can be.

[dragonjek]

Perhaps we could roll %, and group people together in descending order? That way there's no need for any specific roll order.

[gr8artist]

Best method to me seems like putting us in order based on how many rounds we've been in, with the most at the top and fewest on the bottom. Then we start at the bottom and roll to pick a teammate. So if the list looks like this...

1. adam
2. barry
3. clyde
4. danny
5. eric
6. francis
7. greg
8. henry

then henry starts by rolling a d7. Let's say he gets a three. Greg rolls a d5 to pick from the remaining players, who would be

1. adam
2. barry
3. danny
4. eric
5. francis
6. greg

. Let's say he gets a 5. Since he and Francis become the second team, we move on to Eric rolling a d3. Etc...

The option for everybody to roll a d100, and put the highest pair together, then the next highest pair, over and over, would also work. My caveat would be that in the unlikely chance that two people somehow got the same result, they'd be on a team together, rather than rerolling to see who gets placed with the next lowest or highest roller.

[Almarck]

I find the d100 plan most fair, provided there's someone who's administrating the roll off and keeping things secret.

Also, I suggest if we do any roll offs of any sort, we begin recruiting contestants and rolling during the voting peroid for the current contest, to save time. Announce the results on the day the contest starts and anyone who hasn't signed up prior gets to pick their partners since obviously they can't really roll.

[Milo v3]

I find the d100 plan most fair, provided there's someone who's administrating the roll off and keeping things secret.

Why have it secret, just use the forum dieroller.

[Almarck]

There's a forum diceroller? Well, I'm new and didn't know that.

Is it off topic to ask about that here? Since it's relevant and all to people participating in the contest?

[gr8artist]

No problem at all. The command will be [roll]1d100[/roll] or [roll]1dX[/roll] (if we opt for the rolling a number equal to the number of remaining players). The result will come out something like this: (1d100)[63]
We'll actually have to do the dice-rolls elsewhere, as they don't (apparently) work in the homebrew subforum.

I'm thinking there's no real reason to wait until we're voting on this month's winners to start recruiting for the next round. People will likely have questions and whatnot. As soon as we know what we want to do, like how to pick team-mates or what the theme (if anything other than just doubling up) will be, then I can make a new thread to catch attention and try to attract more contestants.

Roster

1. gr8artist
2. malonkey1
3. dragonjek
4. Milo V3
5. caledscratcher
6. Almarck

[dragonjek]

Before I try to suggest a theme, I have to ask--are we working together to each create something related to the other, or are we working together to create a single homebrew?

I seem to remember this being discussed, but if it was resolved I can't find it.



As for themes (should we decide to do themes)--if we're working together on a single creation, then I suggest something along the lines of--
Lego: Now With 90% Less Caltrop!: A homebrew based around being made of many things or of many things coming/working together (a swarm monster or a race that in order to reproduce goes on a sort of treasure hunt until they find enough random crap to make a new one).
or, if we are each homebrewing our own creation--
Opposites Attract: Homebrews based upon opposing one another in some fashion (like a pair of artifacts with power over acids and bases or a magic-hunting class and a magical race).


And since we can't roll dice here, it seems that the Playground has an entire forum devoted to rolling dice

[Milo v3]

Huh, I thought you could roll here, wonder why they removed it from only some parts of the site....