Pathfinder Grab Bag Competition Chat Thread II: New Thread smell included!

[Tanuki Tales]

I actually misremembered the days. The voting is open for another day or two.

Edit:

{table=head]Proposed Name|Theme|Votes
Mad Man in a Magic Box|Whoverse|0
The Mythic Journey|Mythic characters and High Fantasy|0
We Built This City (On Rock and Roll)|Rock songs|0
Fire and Brimstone|The Lower Planes|0
If it has a Name it's Important!|Build-a-NPC|0
Rhythm Revolution|Combos and Rhythms|0
That's All Folks!|Cartoon Physics|0
Plato's Pride|Platonic Solids |0
Monster Master|Monster collection games|0
Now You See Me...|Performance Magic/Prestidigitation|0
Those That Came Before|Based on previous entries|0
Third Law|Magitech and technology in general|0
Mix and Match|Fusing of old concepts into something new|0
Root of all evil|Money, greed and gambling|0
The road less traveled|Drugs, alcohol and addiction|0
MacGuffin|Creation of Plot-centric item and plot that revolves around it|0


[/table]


You all know the drill; 8 votes for each of you and I close it out at 11:59 pm EST on the 18th.

[malonkey1]

"I'm So Meta, Even This Acronym": - Thinking outside the box, divine intervention, messing with game rules.

Fix'd that for ya.

EDIT: My votes are as follows

• Mad Man in a Magic Box Replaced with The Mythic Journey due to thread agreement.
• We Built This City (On Rock and Roll)
• If it has a name it's important
• Plato's Pride
• Now You See Me
• Those That Came Before
• Mix and Match
• MacGuffin

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Mad Man (though I think it would be fitting if it were the same month as the 50th anniversary)
We Built This City
If it has a name it's important!
Monster Master
Now You See ME
Mix and Match
The Road Less Travelled
MacGuffin

[SamBurke]

The Mythic Journey
McGuffin (Because yes, this must be a thing, oh please let this be a thing)
If it Has a Name, it's Important
I'm So Meta Even This Answer
Third Law
Those that Came Before
Mix and Match
Now You See Me

[Razanir]

The Mythic Journey
Rhythm Revolution
That's All Folks
Plato's Pride
Monster Master
Now You See Me...
Third Law
MacGuffin

Also, I propose a special vote: Who else would agree to declaring that the November theme will be Madman in a Magic Box in honor of the Doctor Who 50th Anniversary Special?

[SamBurke]

The Mythic Journey
Rhythm Revolution
That's All Folks
Plato's Pride
Monster Master
Now You See Me...
Third Law
MacGuffin

Also, I propose a special vote: Who else would agree to declaring that the November theme will be Madman in a Magic Box in honor of the Doctor Who 50th Anniversary Special?

I fully agree.

[Tanuki Tales]

Give me 5 people agreeing and I'm all for it.

But then I'll need to strip that one from the voting and re-do the voting once we get a replacement theme.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

I'll vote for the 50th anniversary. I first mentioned it after all.

Edit: and so, if it does come to that, I'll change my original 8 votes to the same, but switch Mad man to Mythic Journey

[malonkey1]

I agree too. I'm looking forward to the 50th.

[Ilorin Lorati]

I agree, that should be it for November.


As for my real votes:

1. Mythic Journey
2. We Built This City
3. Rhythm Revolution
4. Monster Master
5. Those That Came Before
6. Third Law
7. Mix and Match
8. The Road Less Traveled

[gr8artist]

The Mythic Journey
McGuffin (Because yes, this must be a thing, oh please let this be a thing)
If it Has a Name, it's Important
I'm So Meta Even This Answer - Not actually an entry
Third Law
Those that Came Before
Mix and Match
Now You See Me

Another vote for Mad Man in the November contest, which I believe makes 6.
I don't think you really need to redo the whole vote for this batch though.
For this batch, my votes are as follows:

• We Built This City
• Fire and Brimstone
• Rhythm Revolution
• Monster Master
• Now You See Me...
• Those That Came Before
• Root of All Evil
• The Road Less Traveled

[zhdarkstar]

That's All Folks
Mythic Journey
Monster Master
Third Law
Those That Came Before
Root of All Evil
The Road Less Traveled
Rhythm Revolution

[Razanir]

Just so everyone knows:

I already have an awesome idea for the Madman in a Magic Box theme. A time- and space-manipulating, outsider- and aberration-fighting prestige class. The Companion!

[Tanuki Tales]

That's more than enough and let it be so.

[gr8artist]

Current month entry reviews...
I. The Liberal Arts Major

Spoiler

Show

First off, I love it. It's humorous, interesting, and I like to wrap my mind around it. It's really unique, and quite a massive undertaking. Some points...
1. What impact does GEP have at each increase? What's the point of saying the character is a "sophomore" or "junior"?
2. The bonus feats. Is there a list, or is it just "any feat"?
3. Scholarships are good, right? They reduce the cost of tuition and audits, and you don't have to pay them back?
4. No literature love? What about studio art, or sculpture, or interpretive dance?You've got a lot of course trees, but I would love to see more variety. (Don't get me wrong, you did a superb job. I'm just a little butt-hurt that my major isn't available, or my girlfriend's for that matter.)
5. Suppose someone got rage from the Frat Life and Sports Scholarship trees (I think a minor would give you rage as a barb = 1/2, 5/8 level). What happens? Same with other course trees that let you get class features that you could also get with minors.
6. We need more ways to increase effective student level. So much is dependent on it. Maybe correspondence classes or something, allowing you to multiclass away for a while without a loss in SL's.
Lastly, the nitpicking/troubleshooting...
A. Game Theory seems intrinsically bad, unless you have the math minor that lets you sub 5d4 for a d20. Intended?
B. Music Theory should say "any Perform" instead of "Perform (any)".
C. Music Theory and Music Theater give extracts. A copy/paste error, I believe.
D. Physiology is vague with the number of times its usable. Is the number listed total per day, total per target, or number of targets per day?
E. I think, though I'm not sure, that the Sports Scholarship tree allows for zig-zagging or skipping. I don't think that, as it's worded right now, a scholar is forced to choose the same sport he chose previously. I think it's possible to choose Football at first, then Soccer second, then Baseball third, without needing to take the 1st or 2nd level courses again.
F. Theurge, Gish, and the other multi-class emulating booster minors are kinda weak. It's a major class feature, and gives maybe +1 or +2 to your effective level in each class. If I were you, instead of the 1/2 > 5/8 > 7/10 progression, I'd go with 1/3 > 1/2 > 2/3 or something. Start weaker, and give a reason for choosing the boosters.
All in all: I love it. I'll admit it's the most complicated class I've ever seen. But it looks like it'd be loads of fun and the kind of thing you can really get into. I love the humor and style; you've set the bar really high on this one.

II. The Boomzerker

Spoiler

Show

First off, bravo. I love what you've done here, and I love the idea of playing Brick from Borderlands, punching things into oblivion while blinded by the smoke and ashes that erupt from your iron-clad knuckles. You sir, get a cookie. (we don't have a smiley that looks like a cookie)
1. I like a rage that doesn't kill you when it ends, but instead kills you while you're in it. With no temp HP, there's no penalty to exiting rage, and no sudden death if you get calmed down.
2. Wouldn't fire damage bypass his DR? And the explosion bypasses his own DR because that's how it's least beneficial for him.
3. Is he hurt by Blast?
4. How would attacking a square work with Charging Blast, and why would you want to? I assume the increased radius on charging blast is only the first attack after a charge; don't forget that barbs can get pounce (or a similar ability).
6. Can we get firebomb early if we get a fractional version? 1d6/5 levels or somesuch? Pleeeaasseee?
7. Shell-Shocked applies to damage dealt to you, right?
8. Rocket jump should be available only while raging, right?
9. You should add in some cross-bred powers. Something for barbs with a level of alchemist, for example, or who take rage powers that give them elemental damage. We could use more variety than standard explosions with every attack. Perhaps some extra damage if I smash your face in while I'm holding a flask of something?
10. If I attack an opponent and miss, is he subject to the splash? If I hit an opponent, is he subject to the splash AND the explosion on contact?
All in all, one of the most fun things I've ever seen in homebrew. I would love to run one in a non-serious campaign. One of my favorites ever, just add in a little more and make it on par with the other entries in this competition.

III. The Bad Dude

Spoiler

Show

First off, I like the humor and tone. You went with the obvious choice of an action star accomplishing the impossible, and you did it well. I doubt that many could have pulled it off with the same flavor and character you did.
1. Will save progression?
2. I feel saddened that the monk gets deprived of his main feature. Maybe the damage of a 15th level monk? Or just a bunch of extra damage.
3. When using the Ki reroll, do you get to know the result of your roll before deciding to reroll or not? If I roll a 12, do I have to guess if that's good enough or do I know?
4. 10 ki points is a lot for a class that you can't get into with a ki-using base class. Consider swapping rage rounds out for ki points and vice-versa.The conversion is probably 1:1, since the rage is more useful but the ki is harder to come by.
5. Secret of Radness seems really really good. Consider using it as a 5th or 10th level character of that class, instead of maximum level? Just think about how sad the 20 rog/2 fighter will feel when you suddenly gain 10d6 sneak attack. (alternatively, you pick only from prestige classes, and get max as that prestige class would)
6. Art of the Bran-Do is really good, but I'm sensing that that's just a quality of the contest and an epic level class. It's solid, I think.
7. Guile's Theme mentions the target of your skill check? That's a typo, I assume.
8. What if the DM or someone else is rolling for you? Does Awesome Incarnate still keep you safe? I would change it to "as a result of your own actions" instead of "your own roll".
All in all, it's fun, but it's really hard to judge since it's meant for epic play. I know we're bending the rules for power balance, but it seems you bent them a lot further than expected. Or maybe that's just me. Either way, you've got a fun, flavorful, humorous, and well-rounded entry. I like it.

IV. The Talisman of Terror

Spoiler

Show

Umm... It's my entry, so I can't say anything. Any critique would be appreciated.
I have the sample creature/item up: the Phylactery of Atrocitus. It was weird, trying to figure out the rules for an intelligent item, and then applying a creature template to them. I like it, but I don't want to vote for myself... We need more entries.

It's a tough one this month.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Since we need another them to replace the Mad Man -

Formless - centered around insubstantial creatures or copy cats, shape shifters and illusions.

[zhdarkstar]

Current month entry reviews...
I. The Liberal Arts Major
First off, I love it. It's humorous, interesting, and I like to wrap my mind around it. It's really unique, and quite a massive undertaking. Some points...
1. What impact does GEP have at each increase? What's the point of saying the character is a "sophomore" or "junior"?

Originally, all courses were going to be categorized by GEP status. As I started making the 101-level courses, it became apparent to me that it was going to be hard to come up with exclusive courses. As it stands, the only courses linked to your GEP status are the Sports Scholarship tree. It actually is more reflective of the college experience as you sometimes have freshmen and seniors taking the same class because of their differing academic priorities.

2. The bonus feats. Is there a list, or is it just "any feat"?

Any feat. It's supposed to be reflective of the indecisive nature of the class.

3. Scholarships are good, right? They reduce the cost of tuition and audits, and you don't have to pay them back?

Correct. Again something that is reflective of real life as Sports-based scholarships trump Merit-based scholarships.

4. No literature love? What about studio art, or sculpture, or interpretive dance?You've got a lot of course trees, but I would love to see more variety. (Don't get me wrong, you did a superb job. I'm just a little butt-hurt that my major isn't available, or my girlfriend's for that matter.)

I still have the rest of the month to add those in. Although sometimes I run into redundancy issues, hence why basketball and hockey were dropped because they was already covered in part by the other sports. I do have a minor planned for the Frat Life tree, and a possible bonus for going Lambda Lambda Lambda. The main thing I wanted to get done was the core mechanic of the class: being a mini multiclass/gestalt subsystem.

5. Suppose someone got rage from the Frat Life and Sports Scholarship trees (I think a minor would give you rage as a barb = 1/2, 5/8 level). What happens? Same with other course trees that let you get class features that you could also get with minors.

The way that minors work is that every class feature granted by the qualifying classes is replaced by the real class features as per the emulated level. As for the stacking you mentioned, the stacking rules of Change Major would also apply so you would actually end up with a nice rage feature. However, the ultimate trick to optimization will be revealed below, which is the raw unleaded awesome that fuels the class.

6. We need more ways to increase effective student level. So much is dependent on it. Maybe correspondence classes or something, allowing you to multiclass away for a while without a loss in SL's.

If "Those That Came Before" gets picked for next month, I shall be deploying a PrC known as the Teaching Assistant that will continue to boost StL. Other than that, I can't think of any effective way outside of Change Major. I might include a caveat on Change Major that allows you to gain the benefits of Graduation once you hit character level 20, even if your StL won't be at 20.

Lastly, the nitpicking/troubleshooting...
A. Game Theory seems intrinsically bad, unless you have the math minor that lets you sub 5d4 for a d20. Intended?

Game Theory is about changing the probability of the d% and the Math minor is supposed to take that to another level.

B. Music Theory should say "any Perform" instead of "Perform (any)".
C. Music Theory and Music Theater give extracts. A copy/paste error, I believe.
D. Physiology is vague with the number of times its usable. Is the number listed total per day, total per target, or number of targets per day?

Fixed and clarified.

E. I think, though I'm not sure, that the Sports Scholarship tree allows for zig-zagging or skipping. I don't think that, as it's worded right now, a scholar is forced to choose the same sport he chose previously. I think it's possible to choose Football at first, then Soccer second, then Baseball third, without needing to take the 1st or 2nd level courses again.

It's not possible, but I did add in a bit on SS(F) to define the chosen sport as "your sport played" though for the rest of the tree.

F. Theurge, Gish, and the other multi-class emulating booster minors are kinda weak. It's a major class feature, and gives maybe +1 or +2 to your effective level in each class. If I were you, instead of the 1/2 > 5/8 > 7/10 progression, I'd go with 1/3 > 1/2 > 2/3 or something. Start weaker, and give a reason for choosing the boosters.

The multiclass minors were tricky to come up with in terms of balance for emulated class level. The thing to remember is that the only class features not granted are those that are explicitly listed in the opening paragraph. That's means that you gain bonus feats according to emulated class level and is the reason why Fighter is always an option for Going Pro. The way the minors stack and build off each other is why Ranger and Paladin are treated more as caster classes rather than martial classes. You can get the most bang for your buck there.

So here's the optimization trick I talked about earlier: The Jock Recruit archetype can take enough courses via maxing out Extra Audit to end up with 7 minors and the following emulated class levels at Graduation: 12 Marital A/14 Martial B/14 Caster A/12 Caster B. 52 emulated class levels for 20 character levels.

All in all: I love it. I'll admit it's the most complicated class I've ever seen. But it looks like it'd be loads of fun and the kind of thing you can really get into. I love the humor and style; you've set the bar really high on this one.

Thank you so much for the kind words. This is a class that has been tossed around my mind ever since Liberal Arts was a suggested theme many many moons ago. When I saw Rule #1 this time around, I knew this was a good opportunity to give this class life. This was written mostly as an exercise in class-building for a possible full role-playing system based on my friend's book series.

So the LAM was built as a "skeleton" class by deconstructing the OGL classes by their some of their main class features and translating them into the thematically appropriate courses. I did have trouble coming up with something for the martial classes outside of sports. Sneak attack is the only thing I could find an appropriate course for, and it was mostly to give the alchemist minors different options for qualifying by taking archetypes into consideration during course design.

This is definitely a class that is meant more to be played with other LAM as there is potential for balance issues otherwise. Welcome to Badass Academy of Badass Studies!

[malonkey1]

Current month entry reviews...
III. The Bad Dude
First off, I like the humor and tone. You went with the obvious choice of an action star accomplishing the impossible, and you did it well. I doubt that many could have pulled it off with the same flavor and character you did.

1. Will save progression?

Uh... Oops. Fixing.

2. I feel saddened that the monk gets deprived of his main feature. Maybe the damage of a 15th level monk? Or just a bunch of extra damage.

You make a good point. I would go so far as to cut it down to 10th-level unarmed strike, but stacking with Monk levels for it.

3. When using the Ki reroll, do you get to know the result of your roll before deciding to reroll or not? If I roll a 12, do I have to guess if that's good enough or do I know?

It should be after rolling, before revealing success/failure. I will clarify that.

4. 10 ki points is a lot for a class that you can't get into with a ki-using base class. Consider swapping rage rounds out for ki points and vice-versa. The conversion is probably 1:1, since the rage is more useful but the ki is harder to come by.

That's a good idea. I think I'll use that.

5. Secret of Radness seems really really good. Consider using it as a 5th or 10th level character of that class, instead of maximum level? Just think about how sad the 20 rog/2 fighter will feel when you suddenly gain 10d6 sneak attack. (alternatively, you pick only from prestige classes, and get max as that prestige class would)

Yeah, you have a point. I'll make the cap 10th-level.

6. Art of the Bran-Do is really good, but I'm sensing that that's just a quality of the contest and an epic level class. It's solid, I think.

Good to hear

7. Guile's Theme mentions the target of your skill check? That's a typo, I assume.

Yup. Yup yup yup.

8. What if the DM or someone else is rolling for you? Does Awesome Incarnate still keep you safe? I would change it to "as a result of your own actions" instead of "your own roll".

Well, I suppose that could be done...It might be abusable, but I think we're past the Rubicon on that.

All in all, it's fun, but it's really hard to judge since it's meant for epic play. I know we're bending the rules for power balance, but it seems you bent them a lot further than expected. Or maybe that's just me. Either way, you've got a fun, flavorful, humorous, and well-rounded entry. I like it.

It's a tough one this month.

Thanks for the critique, and I'm glad you liked it. I guess I really got some inspiration this time round!

[zhdarkstar]

I added a new course (School Mascot as scholarship/bonus to wild shape/eidolon/mount/animal companion), expanded an existing course (Genetics for druids), and added two more minors (Party Liaison and Gentleman & Scholar) for the frat life tree.

This additional emulated class level booster now puts the current max emu level at 16 in a triple class build of 12 A/14 B/16 C.

EDIT: Scratch that, I just realized that a Cha-caster build can go 12/16/16/12. All things considered, I'm okay with that. Lord Van Wilder was one of the most powerful Liberal Arts Majors of all time...

[Tanuki Tales]

Sorry, had to deal with a Macroeconomics session from Hell this evening and I've left my professor quite the disgruntled email in his mail box.

Let me go take a look at the votes...

Edit:

{table=head]Proposed Name|Theme|Votes
The Mythic Journey|Mythic characters and High Fantasy|6
We Built This City (On Rock and Roll)|Rock songs|4
Fire and Brimstone|The Lower Planes|1
If it has a Name it's Important!|Build-a-NPC|3
Rhythm Revolution|Combos and Rhythms|4
That's All Folks!|Cartoon Physics|2
Plato's Pride|Platonic Solids |2
Monster Master|Monster collection games|5
Now You See Me...|Performance Magic/Prestidigitation|5
Those That Came Before|Based on previous entries|5
Third Law|Magitech and technology in general|4
Mix and Match|Fusing of old concepts into something new|4
Root of all evil|Money, greed and gambling|2
The road less traveled|Drugs, alcohol and addiction|4
MacGuffin|Creation of Plot-centric item and plot that revolves around it|4


[/table]



{table=head]Proposed Name|Theme|Votes
The Mythic Journey|Mythic characters and High Fantasy|0
We Built This City (On Rock and Roll)|Rock songs|0
Monster Master|Monster collection games|0
Now You See Me...|Performance Magic/Prestidigitation|0
Those That Came Before|Based on previous entries|0
Third Law|Magitech and technology in general|0
The road less traveled|Drugs, alcohol and addiction|0
MacGuffin|Creation of Plot-centric item and plot that revolves around it|0


[/table]



Pity to see the NPC one go, but we still have the MacGuffin and there's always December. Since we had a six way tie for the last four slots, I had to roll a d6 to determine who got dropped and Mix and Match and Rhythm Revolution were our unfortunate causalities.

You get 4 votes for this next round and it closes at 11:59 pm EST on the 21st!

[malonkey1]

• Mythic Journey
• We Built This City
• Those That Came Before
• MacGuffin

[zhdarkstar]

The Mythic Journey
Those That Came Before
Third Law
The Road Less Traveled

[SamBurke]

-MacGuffin
-Third Law
-Now You See Me
-Mythic Journey

[TheWombatOfDoom]

We Built this City
Monster Master
Now You See Me
MacGuffin

[gr8artist]

We Built this City
Monster Master
Road Less Traveled
Those that Came Before

Edit: Regarding the LAM and Game Theory ~
1d5 x 1d20 averages out to 3 x 10.5 or about 32. With the other ability to change d20 to 2d10 or 5d4, you get 3 x 11 or 3 x 12.5 which isn't much better. So, nothing really improves the math roll tree. It centralizes the d20 checks, but then the odds of getting anything good drastically drop when using the d20 (centralized or not) and multiplying it by 1d5 in place of a normal d100. For example, consider this; there are multiple ways to get low results (as you can roll low numbers on both dice), but few ways to get high results (which require decent numbers on the 20, and high numbers on the 5).
Also, College Algebra might as well say it gives a bonus equal to your Int - 10, without all the rolling. 1d100 x 1 will only fail like 10% of the time. And that's a level 2. As your level increases, it becomes almost impossible to not get max bonus. And Statistics blows everything away, multiplying the CA bonus by an average of 50.
I'm beginning to assume you meant 1-100% instead of 1-100 when you write d%. I was under the impression that d% was just shorthand for (1d10x10)+1d10, or the 1-100 dice. To indicate that you want a percentage, it should be 1d%/100, I think.
(Edit edit: checked wikipedia; d% is commonly used to indicate integers from 1 to 100, not percentages)

[Ilorin Lorati]

1. The Mythic Journey
2. Now You See Me...
3. Those That Came Before
4. Third Law

[zhdarkstar]

Edit: Regarding the LAM and Game Theory ~
1d5 x 1d20 averages out to 3 x 10.5 or about 32. With the other ability to change d20 to 2d10 or 5d4, you get 3 x 11 or 3 x 12.5 which isn't much better. So, nothing really improves the math roll tree. It centralizes the d20 checks, but then the odds of getting anything good drastically drop when using the d20 (centralized or not) and multiplying it by 1d5 in place of a normal d100. For example, consider this; there are multiple ways to get low results (as you can roll low numbers on both dice), but few ways to get high results (which require decent numbers on the 20, and high numbers on the 5).
Also, College Algebra might as well say it gives a bonus equal to your Int - 10, without all the rolling. 1d100 x 1 will only fail like 10% of the time. And that's a level 2. As your level increases, it becomes almost impossible to not get max bonus. And Statistics blows everything away, multiplying the CA bonus by an average of 50.
I'm beginning to assume you meant 1-100% instead of 1-100 when you write d%. I was under the impression that d% was just shorthand for (1d10x10)+1d10, or the 1-100 dice. To indicate that you want a percentage, it should be 1d%/100, I think.
(Edit edit: checked wikipedia; d% is commonly used to indicate integers from 1 to 100, not percentages)

Fixed the notation errors to the correct format and added an extra bonus to the Math minor to take advantage of the centralized rolls.

EDIT: As for why it isn't just a simple X - Y bonus is that this ability is as much of a thematically appropriate joke as it is a bonus. I also added a far simpler to calculate but far less potent version for those who dumped Int.

[DawnbringerSO]

Third Law
We built this city
MacGuffin
The road less travelled

[Tanuki Tales]

{table=head]Proposed Name|Theme|Votes
The Mythic Journey|Mythic characters and High Fantasy|4
We Built This City (On Rock and Roll)|Rock songs|4
Monster Master|Monster collection games|2
Now You See Me...|Performance Magic/Prestidigitation|3
Those That Came Before|Based on previous entries|4
Third Law|Magitech and technology in general|3
The road less traveled|Drugs, alcohol and addiction|4
MacGuffin|Creation of Plot-centric item and plot that revolves around it|4


[/table]

Votes tallied to here.

[Tanuki Tales]

{table=head]Proposed Name|Theme|Votes
We Built This City (On Rock and Roll)|Rock songs|0
Those That Came Before|Based on previous entries|0
The road less traveled|Drugs, alcohol and addiction|0
MacGuffin|Creation of Plot-centric item and plot that revolves around it|0


[/table]

And we're on the next round! Two votes this time and voting remains open till 11:59 pm EST on the 24th.