The "Tales of" Series

[Gan The Grey]

I'm...not entirely clear on what you're asking for? You want a kiss scene or something? Or some Word of God "this is an official pairing"?

Me, I think they do it on purpose to keep people discussing potential 'ships. :P

I want the line to be crossed. I want them to actually deal with the situations that arise when you cross that line. I want something other than just build-up. I want their characters to eventually stop dancing around the situation and finally own up. It feels like the developers are almost uncomfortable dealing with these situations, so they just keep putting it off. I mean, look at Final Fantasy VIII. As far as I remember, the main theme of the game was a love story. I want to see something like that in a Tales game.

Some examples:

Tales of Graces f

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Asbel and Cheria - Yes, we get to see a child. That was neat, but they still don't really deal with their relationship. They had a chance to really develop this in the extra story included with f (can't remember what it was called), but they didn't.

Hubert and Pascal - We never get anywhere with this. He finally gets up the nerve to say something to her, and she mistakes his message and he just lets it go.

Tales of Symphonia

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Lloyd and ???? - Admittedly, it has been a long time since I've played this, but I remember that you could pretty much choose who you wanted to develop a relationship with as the game went on. This would have been a perfect opportunity for some decently romantic variable endings, but I feel like they deliberately avoided dealing with it once you got there.

[Airk]

I want the line to be crossed. I want them to actually deal with the situations that arise when you cross that line. I want something other than just build-up. I want their characters to eventually stop dancing around the situation and finally own up. It feels like the developers are almost uncomfortable dealing with these situations, so they just keep putting it off.

Nope; I think they're doing it for exactly the reason I stated. Fans like making up their own nonsensical relationships (Lookin' at you, Raven/Rita). Official ones break that down.

I mean, look at Final Fantasy VIII. As far as I remember, the main theme of the game was a love story.

And THAT went over SO WELL with the fans. ;) FF8 is pretty hated on. (I was going to say it was "one of the most hated on FF games," then I realized we had 12 and 13.)

Hubert and Pascal - We never get anywhere with this. He finally gets up the nerve to say something to her, and she mistakes his message and he just lets it go.

This is all this deserves, IMHO.

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Lloyd and ???? - Admittedly, it has been a long time since I've played this, but I remember that you could pretty much choose who you wanted to develop a relationship with as the game went on. This would have been a perfect opportunity for some decently romantic variable endings, but I feel like they deliberately avoided dealing with it once you got there.

I just completely disagree here. This isn't a dating sim, and anytime you make a "system" out of something like this, people end up spending a ton of time with a guide so they can get the person they want. Doing something like this would activity diminish my entertainment.

I don't object to the idea of characters in a game actually committing to a relationship, and it might be a nice change of pace, but it's hard to write well, and probably isn't actually in Namco's best interest in terms of pleasing most of their fans. I DO object to including too many 'dating sim' elements.

[Gan The Grey]

Nope; I think they're doing it for exactly the reason I stated. Fans like making up their own nonsensical relationships (Lookin' at you, Raven/Rita). Official ones break that down.

For the secondary characters, sure. That makes sense. For Asbel and Cheria? We all know where it's going. Just take us there already!

And THAT went over SO WELL with the fans. ;) FF8 is pretty hated on. (I was going to say it was "one of the most hated on FF games," then I realized we had 12 and 13.)

Again, this is just my opinion, but I'm not sure most of the problems people have with FF8 had to do with its story. I hated the way that game played, but liked the story. I hear that a lot from people.

This is all this deserves, IMHO.

Quite a few people in this thread have complained about the lack of character growth, especially with Pascal. The developers had an opportunity with this situation to grow her character in a deeper direction, but opted for more of the same in order to avoid dealing with it.

I just completely disagree here. This isn't a dating sim, and anytime you make a "system" out of something like this, people end up spending a ton of time with a guide so they can get the person they want. Doing something like this would activity diminish my entertainment.

I don't object to the idea of characters in a game actually committing to a relationship, and it might be a nice change of pace, but it's hard to write well, and probably isn't actually in Namco's best interest in terms of pleasing most of their fans. I DO object to including too many 'dating sim' elements.

What's wrong with dating sims? More specifically, what does it matter what other people do when they play the game? So you don't like playing that way. No problem. Don't do it. But the fact is, Tales of Symphonia HAD relationship sim elements built into it. It was a part of the game. The problem was, the player got practically NOTHING from it in the end. That's basically a feature with no benefit. For people like you, it's not a problem. For me, it got a little frustrating. I keep hoping, with every new addition to the series, that Namco takes that leap and addresses those topics. We almost got there with Graces, but with f, I felt like they dropped the ball.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Just a week and a half until Xillia is released stateside! I really need to hurry up and finish Graces F.

All those getting Xillia, are you playing as Jude or Milla first? I'm playing as Jude first because I hear the story works out better if you play as Jude and then Milla, as Milla provides a lot of foreshadowing at the like that you won't really understand on the first playthough but will get on the second (and since most Tales Series games require a flowchart to understand anyway...). Also, as stoked as I am for the first female protagonist, the idea of playing as a med student protagonist tickles me, as I'm prevet.

[Zevox]

Just a week and a half until Xillia is released stateside! I really need to hurry up and finish Graces F.

All those getting Xillia, are you playing as Jude or Milla first? I'm playing as Jude first because I hear the story works out better if you play as Jude and then Milla, as Milla provides a lot of foreshadowing at the like that you won't really understand on the first playthough but will get on the second (and since most Tales Series games require a flowchart to understand anyway...). Also, as stoked as I am for the first female protagonist, the idea of playing as a med student protagonist tickles me, as I'm prevet.

Hm, I was planning on playing as Milla first, because of her being the first female main protagonist for the series, but if it does work better in reverse, I might just have to change that.

[Sylthia]

Just a week and a half until Xillia is released stateside! I really need to hurry up and finish Graces F.

All those getting Xillia, are you playing as Jude or Milla first? I'm playing as Jude first because I hear the story works out better if you play as Jude and then Milla, as Milla provides a lot of foreshadowing at the like that you won't really understand on the first playthough but will get on the second (and since most Tales Series games require a flowchart to understand anyway...). Also, as stoked as I am for the first female protagonist, the idea of playing as a med student protagonist tickles me, as I'm prevet.

I wonder how being a med student protagonist in a Tales game will feel. I just finished with med school and am now a resident. Although I played games to get away from that in the first place, so it's kinda weird. Reminds me of the World of Workcraft video from a few years ago.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Well, he probably won't be an Idiot Hero.

[Sylthia]

Well, he probably won't be an Idiot Hero.

With my experience with med school, you'd be surprised, since Int=\=Wis.

Good luck with prevet, by the way.

[Ishikar]

Call it a hunch.

Also, to newcomers to the Tales series, watch the skits. A lot of the character development and best scenes in the game are in there.

I know it's a callback in the thread but man I just couldn't help but jump to the "Tear's Melons" skit from Abyss. It was just too funny when I saw it and it really helps flesh out Tear's Tsundere traits, and I for one have a HUGE weakness for those types in most media types (Rie Kugimiya has FAR too many roles in anime that I enjoy, even if they are the same character with different back stories.

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Lloyd and ???? - Admittedly, it has been a long time since I've played this, but I remember that you could pretty much choose who you wanted to develop a relationship with as the game went on. This would have been a perfect opportunity for some decently romantic variable endings, but I feel like they deliberately avoided dealing with it once you got there.

Eh the effort involved with the "other" prospects in that game meant that you either spent the whole game badmouthing Collete intentionally or beat the game several times carrying over affection levels to offset the MASSIVE advantage the female "protagonist" had.

[Zevox]

Eh the effort involved with the "other" prospects in that game meant that you either spent the whole game badmouthing Collete intentionally or beat the game several times carrying over affection levels to offset the MASSIVE advantage the female "protagonist" had.

No, not really. I recall doing that with a number of other characters, and the only one that was actually difficult to do was Kratos. (It wasn't actually a romantic pairing thing, by the way, just a strong friendship.)

[Sylthia]

No, not really. I recall doing that with a number of other characters, and the only one that was actually difficult to do was Kratos. (It wasn't actually a romantic pairing thing, by the way, just a strong friendship.)

I don't think they could make that pair romantic and keep the T rating.

[Shekinah]

Zelos is really hard to build affection for as well. So many things tick him off. He's more hypersensitive than I am on my bad days.

Also, Rezzy, y u post in blue text?

[Zevox]

I don't think they could make that pair romantic and keep the T rating.

No, I mean in general. That whole mechanic was a friendship thing, regardless of who you did it with.

[Sylthia]

Zelos is really hard to build affection for as well. So many things tick him off. He's more hypersensitive than I am on my bad days.

Also, Rezzy, y u post in blue text?

Blue text is for sarcasm/joking.

[Wolf_Haley]

Still mad I can never see that Jade/Dist pairing in game, the devs kept teasing the fanbase back in the day that their was stuff in game they could do to push them together in New Game+. Trolled hard.

[Shekinah]

Still mad I can never see that Jade/Dist pairing in game, the devs kept teasing the fanbase back in the day that their was stuff in game they could do to push them together in New Game+. Trolled hard.

Well, we do get that one scene...

[Sylthia]

Still mad I can never see that Jade/Dist pairing in game, the devs kept teasing the fanbase back in the day that their was stuff in game they could do to push them together in New Game+. Trolled hard.

We do get this scene. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dtCoe7sMIQ

[Airk]

For the secondary characters, sure. That makes sense. For Asbel and Cheria? We all know where it's going. Just take us there already!

Eh. I guess. I honestly felt it hard to care about Asbel/Cheria, so I don't really think it would have been interesting for those particular two characters to have a relationship.

Again, this is just my opinion, but I'm not sure most of the problems people have with FF8 had to do with its story. I hated the way that game played, but liked the story. I hear that a lot from people.

I've heard both sides. Some people enjoyed the gameplay and loathed the characters and story, some people enjoyed the story but couldn't wrap their heads around junctioning.

Quite a few people in this thread have complained about the lack of character growth, especially with Pascal. The developers had an opportunity with this situation to grow her character in a deeper direction, but opted for more of the same in order to avoid dealing with it.

I disagree; I don't think Pascal/Hubert is remotely feasible - I don't think they could have handled it any way other than the way they did and had it seem consistent with her character as written.

What's wrong with dating sims? More specifically, what does it matter what other people do when they play the game? So you don't like playing that way. No problem. Don't do it. But the fact is, Tales of Symphonia HAD relationship sim elements built into it. It was a part of the game.

And yet you find yourself wondering why they didn't include this "feature" in other games? Let me help:

#1) It's a lot of effort to build in all those hooks and choices. JRPGs are already an expensive, time consuming genre to produce.
#2) It's even MORE time and effort if they want to make those choices do anything other than select the ending cutscene that they play.
#3) Most of the effort spent in #1 and #2 will only ever be seen by a tiny fraction of players. ESPECIALLY if it is integrated in a non-intrusive fashion, which will probably cause a lot of players to not even know it's there unless you display your "relationship levels" somewhere.
#4) If you DO display "Relationship levels" then that leads to people playing the game differently. This may not be desirable - if the designers want people to play the game "for the story" or something similar, then adding Dating Sim elements to the game alters the players behavior in a way that is contrary to the goal of the game. At the VERY least, it will result in people having another system they feel they need to pay attention to. Double especially if there are actions that LOWER relationship levels. People behave very strangely with regard to things like that. (Of course, if you DON'T display them, people will spend a ridiculous amount of time cataloging what actions do what so that they can get the ending they want (See: Star Ocean 3), but you will probably impact fewer of your players by not displaying the relationship levels.)
#5: As a rule, since game development is finite, the more effort you spend developing "alternate paths" the less attention and time you can give to the main one, so if you go meaningfully down the dating sim route, your main narrative is likely to suffer. Or you get the "Symphonia Effect" where the main narrative gets the focus and the dating sim elements feel tacked on and useless.

So to sum up:
Adding dating sim elements to a game is time consuming (and therefore expensive), only matters to a small number of players, but is capable of disrupting the experience of significantly more if not implemented well.

The problem was, the player got practically NOTHING from it in the end. That's basically a feature with no benefit.

I agree that the feature would have better been omitted, and based on the decisions they made with future entries in the series, the Tales team(s) agree with me.

For people like you, it's not a problem. For me, it got a little frustrating. I keep hoping, with every new addition to the series, that Namco takes that leap and addresses those topics. We almost got there with Graces, but with f, I felt like they dropped the ball.

You know the other weird thing about your request? It's not a request. it's TWO requests, which are not necessarily related and which in fact actually work cross purposes.

If you want a game in which the leads actually cement a romantic relationship DURING the game, then dating sim elements are actually counterproductive, because the more choices there are, the harder it becomes to meaningfully develop any of them.

If you want to play a JRPG with a relationship system, you might enjoy the Atelier series. (I did, but not for the relationship system, particularly.)

[Wolf_Haley]

Dating sim elements do not cater to just a small number of the fanbase. If it did Persona 3 and 4s dating elements wouldn't be so well recieved and constantly requested by large parts of the American and Japanese fanbase.

[Airk]

Dating sim elements do not cater to just a small number of the fanbase. If it did Persona 3 and 4s dating elements wouldn't be so well recieved and constantly requested by large parts of the American and Japanese fanbase.

I'd argue that that is different - people who play the Persona games do so strictly FOR those elements. I don't think many people play Persona for the "traditional RPG" bits. And honestly, you're going to have a hard time convincing me that it's actually the "dating sim" elements and not simply the character development that has people interested in the Persona series.

You'll also notice that if you compare the amount of "main narrative" text in those games to the amount in a Tales game, the Tales game has WAY MORE going on, because in Persona, you need to give the player lots of time with, essentially, nothing happening. The "main plot" in the Persona games is actually pretty barebones if you really think about it, and doesn't have anything approaching the degree of complexity involved in a "traditional JRPG". Compare the Symphonia Narrative to the P3 or P4 narrative and you'll see what I mean. Heck. Just try to summarize the events of one compared to the other. Whether that is a good thing, a bad thing, or neither will depend on the viewer.

If you think this kind of structure would work in a traditional RPG, you are free to think that, but I am free to think you are wrong. They are, fundamentally, very, very different games, and what "works" or even "is important" in one absolutely isn't in the other. You'll also note that there are large "game element" functions to the "dating sim" mechanics, due to the way they are tied to the Persona Arcana. I doubt I'm the only person who said to himself while playing one of these games "I really don't want to go hang out with that guy, because I just don't care about his stupid issues, but I really want to level up my Star Arcana."

But you're right - it's possible to build a game that appeals to a wide number of people (relative term - both Tales and Persona are pretty niche on this side of the big pond) and contains heavy dating sim elements. It's NOT, IMHO, possible to do that and build a "standard JRPG" at the same time. Let's do some lazy research. How many people cared about the dating sim relationships in Star Ocean 3? Symphonia? Atelier games?

Again; There just isn't time and money enough in game development for a game that tries to do a big sprawling Tales style narrative AND Persona style relationship building at the same time. I'm not convinced that it could be done even with infinite money. I think you'd basically fall prey to the Master of Orion 3 effect, where you end up with a game that's completely unplayable because it's so utterly unfocused because it is trying to be all things to all people.

I mean hell, why don't we add branching dialogue trees ala Planescape Torment to these games too, while we're at it?

[Wolf_Haley]

Most of the fanbase for those games you just mentioned really like the dating sim elements present, especially in the Atelier games and SO3.

[Gan The Grey]

I think this discussion has meandered a bit from my original wants. The dating sim thing was just an example supporting my argument that Tales games often won't pull the trigger on relationships. It's not the dating sims I want. Its the character dynamics of the relationships that I'm interested in. There is a whole world of story on the other side of that line that we never get to see in Tales games. We get all the build up, but no pay off. I want some pay off. That's really all.

[Wolf_Haley]

Abyss was pretty bad about that, I ehard Vesperia did alright but I can't judge myself.

Anyone play Naikiri Dungeon X? It's got a fantranslation and I was thinking about playing it.

[Sylthia]

On a completely different note, in Graces, why hasn't Fendel taken over the world yet? They're a steam-punk nation who seem to be the only nation that equips their soldiers with guns. They rarely seem to use them, though. It seems odd that they use their weapons as bayonets more often than as guns.

[CoffeeIncluded]

On a completely different note, in Graces, why hasn't Fendel taken over the world yet? They're a steam-punk nation who seem to be the only nation that equips their soldiers with guns. They rarely seem to use them, though. It seems odd that they use their weapons as bayonets more often than as guns.

Because they're destitute. They probably don't have enough X-rays to support the gun bit of the gun enough. Put another way, they have a low bullet supply. They're a major power, but they simply don't have the resources to take over the world; they barely have enough natural resources to survive.

[Sylthia]

Because they're destitute. They probably don't have enough X-rays to support the gun bit of the gun enough. Put another way, they have a low bullet supply. They're a major power, but they simply don't have the resources to take over the world; they barely have enough natural resources to survive.

They seem to not use their massive technological edge to their advantage. If they actually used their guns, they could take out the entire Lhant army from over a hundred yards away and have that lush resource rich land.

[CoffeeIncluded]

They can't. Remember Fendel Tower? Fendel may look imposing and steampunk and a war machine on the outside, but on the inside, it's a rusted heap, barely limping along, with nearly everyone subsiding on rags and scraps (there are some blatant real-world parallels that I am not going to get into here). They're practically falling apart. Glitzy guns mean nothing when they're neither accurate nor reliable.

[Airk]

Abyss was pretty bad about that, I ehard Vesperia did alright but I can't judge myself.

Vesperia didn't even HAVE any romantic relationships (unless you count Ristelle :P) so no, it didn't. Yuri and Estelle have ZERO romantic chemistry together, which is FINE, but definitely NOT getting Gan any of the 'payoff' he wants. (Aside: That sounds kindof dirty.)

And yeah, I'm with CoffeeIncluded - Fendel just doesn't have the resources. I wager most of those 'guns' can't even fire. Plus I get the feeling things aren't all warm and fuzzy at home, so they can't devote too much of their army to foreign undertakings without risking everything coming down around their ears on the home front.

[Sylthia]

I could see Fendel not being able to hold onto power, but they should be a bigger military threat than they are. Having a poor, barren homeland with a military technological edge would make them akin to Vikings.

[Shekinah]

Three days until Xillia! And Rezzy isn't on call that week. Pretty awesome timing.