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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: How do Dragons exist? With a lot of Luck!

    Veklim Response - Part 1!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Veklim View Post
    Dragons don't do luck in the 'standard' form, they have learnt to manipulate the very fabric of their own bodies, and even others' bodies given enough time, study and, well....luck.
    Essentially. They basically use life force to manipulate life. This could be by taking the life force from something else - IE: Consuming them, pulling it from them, or using their own. This could be why dragons gain so much health, because they use that health to manipulate other things, or their own. Think of it like the energy systems we have in place for Magic and Fate. With magic, a caster uses their own energy plus the energy from belief to cast. In Fate, a seer uses their own energy, plus energy from the elements around them. Luck is very much the same, but with life force. Which essentially, is what "energy" is. The difference is, Magic pulls from other sentience, Fate from other Elements, and Luck from other lives. All three are able to pull from their own body's energy. However, I'd say Dragons are the most efficent of the three.

    In their own body, a Dragon can drastically change certain features and characteristics, aided largely by each species' unique set of symbiotic colonies (developed by their ancestors), as well as a hyper-developed set of organs and adaptations which vary wildly depending on the specific species in question (note to Wombat, could do with a brief rundown of each species' adaptations/abilities at some point, would help with identifying key themes and correlations ).
    I'm still on the fence about every Dragon having symbiotic colonies, but at least a few of them might. I only know of one in which it fits well at the moment.



    You ask, and you shall receive - (sizes are not D & D friendly, Large is the size of a T-Rex, Small is the size of Utah Raptor, Medium is in between. All sizes and details are subject to change.)

    Wind Dragons (classic dragon-esque) - 6 limbed, Breath fire, fly, tail adapted for flying, double lung with chemical that produces lighter than air gas. Larger in size.

    Shadow Dragons - 6 Limbed, Breathe fire, Nocturnal, highly migratory, fly, eyes and color adapted for night, double lung with chemical that produces lighter than air gas, heating system in skin from same chemical that produces lighter than air gas. Medium in size.

    Sea Dragons (sea serpent-esque)- 3 sets of fins (akin to 6 limbs), Serpent-like, undulates to swim, spines along back - between which are guiding fins, dual blowhole at top of head, water to air adjusting eyes, double lungs, Protocercal tail. Larger in size.

    Water Dragons - 4 Limbed, front hands have fins attached at back of wrist, and feet are webbed, Large dorsal-esque fin attached to back by two bones (acts similar to a sail above surface, as well as to absorb sun for heating purposes), these two bones are able to be dislocated so that the sail can collapse, double lungs, protocercal tail, able to travel on land clumsily. Medium in size.

    River Dragons - 4 Limbed, powerful front arms to assist in swimming, smaller back legs to assist while on land, monocercal tail for swimming, has barbles extending from back of the skull for manuvering tight areas or for sensing prey, double lung, short neck, land and water capable. Small in size.

    Ice Dragons - 4 Limbed, powerful arms and legs, breathe frost (actually breathe fire, but due to cold temperatures comes out as a frost/steam), heating system in skin from same chemical that produces lighter than air gas, icicles grow on it due to warm skin. Medium in size.

    Cliff Dragons (wyvern-esque) - 4 Limbed, front limbs are wings with claw on top for latching, strong rear legs for landing, hooked talon like feet, narrow nose and skull, angled ridges along back, single lung, light body. Small in size.

    Forest Dragons - 4 Limbed, strong arms and legs, gliding flap of skin between sides and inside of arm (similar to flying squirrels), prehensile tail which ends in tuft of hair, omnivore, no horns, single lung, light body. Small in size.

    Land Dragons - 4 Limbed, strong arms and legs, no wings, long bristles that run along back that allow it to blend in with tall grass, can travel at fast speeds for short amounts of time, double lung. Medium in size.

    Earth Dragons - 4 Limbed, strong arms and legs, no wings, symbiotic relationship with a fungus that grows along back (looks mossy, almost like dreadlocks), clubbed tail, single lung. Large in size.

    Sand Dragons - 6 Limbed, three strong sets of arms/legs it uses to dig, serpent-esque form, skin in spiral patterned ridges along body used for spiraling through sand as it burrows, single lung. Large in size.

    Glass Dragons - 4 Limbed, strong arms and legs, skin can changes color for themoregulation/camoflage/attracting a mate, generally lives in warmer climates, breathes fire, double lung. Small in size.

    More later...but this should suffice some things for now!
    Last edited by TheWombatOfDoom; 2013-08-27 at 02:53 PM.
    Scientific Name: Wombous apocolypticus | Diet: Apocolypse Pie | Cuddly: Yes

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  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: How do Dragons exist? With a lot of Luck!

    Veklim Response: Part 2!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Veklim View Post
    But this makes me think the whole counterpart thing to positive and negative fate shouldn't actually be counterparts at all, lemme babble a moment to see if it becomes coherant...
    Babble away!

    Dragons have domain over life and therefore death, since it is only another part of life, as they intimately understand it. There is no such thing as positive or negative life, there is only growth and decay, both of which are complex and vital parts of the force. Therefore we should refer back to your 2 halves of a battery analogy for a moment...imagine you rotate Luck's half by 90 degrees to create a second axis. Luck still has two 'poles' (growth and decay) but now they have no direct comparison to Fate's positive and negative poles. Both powers have 2 poles, and energy flows back and forth between them, but they are fundamentally differing concepts and must therefore be balanced in effect rather than philosophy. Magic has an unusual shape which sits between these 2 axes, and this is why it may mimic and approximate effects from either of the two forces, since it has shape on BOTH axes...
    Blast! I just lost what I was writing for some reason! Curses...let me see if I can get this back. I was almost done! Switching over to word. *grumbles*

    So we’ve established that Life runs on polar opposites – growth and decay. But I think those are both in line with positive and negative, and this is why – positive and negative refer to polar opposites, not specific ideas. Think of Fate – we have hot and cold, moving and still, light and dark, and so on. They aren’t just one of these, but all of them. In this same way we have opposites in Luck – growth and decay, charms and curses (boons?), perhaps even Living and Dead (I’m not sure in the last case however). It is difficult to identify since a living thing is made up of all four elements…

    But hear me out: growth is incurring movement, becoming more complex. Decay is becoming more still, becoming less complex. With growth, I think it would be negative, and decay – positive. I feel that these are the same positive and negative system, because of the amount that Fate and Luck share. Both have the four elements, and both lead into each other. Life was created from the four elements combining, and it recedes back into Fate upon death through its final decay. So literally, growth and decay play into Fate rather heavily, just in a different way than the specific elements do. So I think in my mind the battery idea still applies, without making a cross-battery. I think in essence, while they are both fundamentally different, they are in fact themselves two sides of the same thing – their own polar opposites, containing various other polar opposites. And I think that last part is where you got the idea that they might serve better crossed, but while we have positive and negative as one axis, we already have the other axis – Fate and Luck.

    Perhaps the battery analogy should be changed to a ball or globe, where both sides make a complete circuit, and both share 2 poles, and then each have a unique pole of their own they are centered around.

    Or an even wonkier idea, Fate and Luck share one side of the globe (a hemisphere if you will) and consist of all possible combinations of the elements, while Magic is the mirror of that, in which it consists of both possibilities, as well as its own impossibilities. But that’s just one thing I’m throwing out without further notion or pondering.

    Now to tackle that bigger post, but I think this one is long enough for the moment…
    Last edited by TheWombatOfDoom; 2013-08-27 at 02:53 PM.
    Scientific Name: Wombous apocolypticus | Diet: Apocolypse Pie | Cuddly: Yes

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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: How do Dragons exist? With a lot of Luck!

    Veklim Response - Part 3!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Veklim View Post
    Further to my earlier thoughts on the 'orientation' of Luck and Fate, I've had a tiny brainwave which would serve to explain the fluctuations of both forces...they rotate. Dunno if this is gonna be worth much, but it's certainly worth TRYING to explain, I'll continue with the battery halves image for this:
    It certainly is! You’re explanations always let me know how you think about things, and how you’ve come to an idea. And you fully explore the idea. So while sometimes I may not agree, I often like some of the idea enough to incorporate it. Even if I incorporate none of it, I can explain how I don’t think it will work that way, which conveys better understanding to you, and rationalizing my thoughts allows me to further develop the system in a way I might not have before. In other words, this process is always a valuable one. But enough talking about talking while I put words to your words.

    Fate is in power when the two halves are parallel (symbolising stability, law and convergence), since the directional uniformity of both forces allows for far more accurate predictions of living creatures as well as natural events.

    Luck is in power when the two halves are perpendicular (symbolising erraticism, chaos and divergence), since life at this point is furthest away from the confines of Fate and therefore at it's most mutable.

    There is an interesting effect which occurs here though, whereby the poles of each force will intersect in two phases. You would also gain 2 phases where either growth or decay are moving towards a 'natural' state of ascendency whereby the world itself tends towards one or the other;
    The 1st phase is positive fate/growth - negative fate/decay
    The 2nd phase is growth headed towards negative fate and decay headed towards positive fate
    The 3rd phase is positive fate/decay - negative fate/growth
    The 4th phase is growth headed towards positive fate and decay headed towards negative fate

    You could use this as a basis to add 'force seasons' to the ebb and flow of Fate and Luck, giving different effects to each phase which affect the type of predictions made by Elvori, as well as giving a specific trend to a Dragon's control over growth or decay as it moves in and out of ascendency. We could (just for argument's sake) call these Summer (1st phase), Autumn (2nd phase), Winter (3rd phase) and Spring (4th phase). Whereas this could easily explain seasonal changes in a very real-world way, it could also represent a broader period of time giving way to the idea of more abstract epochs (kinda like warm periods and ice ages). Of course, the rotation need not be at a uniform rate, and a truly monumental change, event or power might speed up, stop or even reverse this motion...
    Hmmm, this is interesting. This is neat to imagine – Two giant pillars moving like turbines adjacent to each other. It almost reminds me of two magnets spinning due to the other. While these two systems as separate entities in this sense are intriguing, and a possible alternative in case my idea doesn’t go over well from last post. What I find interesting the most is that you have Luck as Choatic and Fate as Law. While each is very easily conclude-able (especially since that was their original values back when I introduced the idea of Luck and Fate), I feel that now, these two things are their own values with Luck have tendencies, but also chaotic occurrences, the same with Fate. That’s why Fate can predict a living thing’s actions to a point, and why Luck can adapt to suit the elements.

    As for the seasons – I have scrawled out – Autumn starts the season of decay, and would be under the element of Earth, both of which are in the positive tendency. Then we have Winter under the Element of Water, continuing the season of decay to extremity. Then Spring with Wind, starting the season of Growth. Then Summer with Fire, and Growth in extremity.

    Then you have the Forcipital Seasons, or better - Rotations. This represents the cycle of the 3 forces. While these are in power, I’m not sure we’d see the fluctuations in any worldly way. I think it’s mostly the abilities that are gained via this rotation, and mentality change of those affected. Though, it could stand to reason that it’s just not identifiable as a worldly change, because it’s so vast, such as, Life might have the ability to balance the food chain a bit, Fate might correct the orbit of the planet, and the axis it spins on, Magic…well, I’ve already detail that I guess – belief is constant instead of limited, making magic function as High Magic.

    This also means that Magic becomes the 'heat' generated by the friction of these two moving forces, and could display a fluctuation of it's own on a far more erratic scale (think tectonics with the sudden and rather unpredictable shifts which occur due to otherwise reasonably steady forces). This pressure could be maintained like a safety valve by Ancients, but of course with fewer and fewer Ancients all the time, the pressure might be building badly causing unfortunate consequences...
    This I’d like to explore in more definition once we settle a bit more on the three fates and their interactions. I particularly like the fact that the Ancients have a balance to work on, just like the other 2 systems. It gives a reason why all three forces have a people chosen to assist it. They have a purpose to attain, even if some might have forgotten it was important at some point (similar to how in A Song of Ice and Fire, they forgot the importance of the Wall). This detail is going to be integral to the storyline, so I’d like to be fairly thorough with it.

    Brief musings on constructs and undead...
    It has been well established that neither of these can be achieved by Fate OR Luck, but that magic may in some way be able to create either or both of these things. I like this on two (possibly mutually exclusive) levels...the first is that it gives magic something unique, an effect it can produce which cannot be bound by EITHER of the two primary forces of existence. This is a nice and simple option which leaves scope for storytelling. Secondly it opens up the possibility of constructs/undead (they could essentially be the same thing after all, just one of organic material and elemental exertion and one of inorganic material and lifeforce exertion) being created by a joint venture of Elvori AND Dragons, making them neutral arbiters in the (hopefully) never-ending cycles of Fate and Luck. This could also lead to some great storytelling, but offers up as many questions as it does answers...
    Hrm. So, these would be creatures that have been manipulated into being by Subsumal Magic. Ooooo. I like this. Well, at least with the undead. I have a sixth kind of Elvori known as the Grey Elvori, which were crazed, tainted, distorted Elvori which were twisted by magic into the feral creatures they’ve become. Perhaps they are undead Elvori, transformed by magic into feral beasts that only desire to reunite with fate, or some such. I also had Grey Dwarves, but this template could be Racially diverse, of course.

    As for constructs, I’m leaning toward Luck and Fate working together to create them, rather than being Magically involved, and they have a life span determined by how much Luck is fastened to them. Perhaps it would be similar to Full Metal Alchemist in some fashion, and have to do with the soul in some way. Though, you do make a valid point. In the system, undead are basically something that is somewhere between Luck and Fate.


    I realise now that I've typed all this out, that it doesn't really fit in any of the 3 threads you have going...but it's here now so I'll leave it to you to place!

    More coming on Dragons as my thoughts clarify and my time is more plentiful!
    This all seems to most fit in the overall thread (The World of Aldain thread), which contains the description of the interaction between the three forces within it. But yeah, it works here because its getting a clearer way on how we want luck since its being influenced by what we already have in place.
    Last edited by TheWombatOfDoom; 2013-08-27 at 02:53 PM.
    Scientific Name: Wombous apocolypticus | Diet: Apocolypse Pie | Cuddly: Yes

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    Order of the Stick Projects:
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: How do Dragons exist? With a lot of Luck!

    Quote Originally Posted by TheWombatOfDoom View Post
    As for your project - Its neat that someone else has thought of this too, and it might help you jive with my system. In the future I plan on creating a custom game system for this, and I'm creating all of this mostly for my novel setting. Its a world I've been working on for 13 years, literally half my life. I don't even know if undead would exist. If it does, it's a part of Luck, not Fate. Constructs would likely also be Luck. Fate could make a construct, just not animate them. Either way, I'd love to look at what you have!
    Thanks, if the novel I'm trying to write with the setting gets more fleshed out I'll post something (hopefully I can exchange that if for a when).

    One thing that I want to do is explore the line between science fiction and fantasy, because I had certain epiphany some years ago and I want to see where that leads.

    What I am doing with undead, construct, fate and luck is the following.

    Construct work like Asimov Robots but touched with notes from other sci-fi settings. People distrust constructs. Constructs won't harm them but they live for ever, as tools don't have a fate of their own, and even if they have some restrictions most people don't remember/know those and constructs aren't obliged to tell them. Also humans can no longer create constructs, because the technology is lost, they can create simple tools or... undead. If someone has read Robots and Empire or the Evitable conflict by Asimov it is kind of like that. So in this case, luck animates a construct, or gives it the will to keep going.

    Undead are the human response to constructs. A human mechanic might be able to create a good mechanical body, but it is just a piece of metal. Using a soul or a spirit this mannequin can be improved and animated. Think voodoo mixed with mechanics and programming. This undead are at the fair side of the spectrum from constructs, because they lack the knowledge to change their bodies and they are tied to the fate of the human donor. Basically in this case it is the fate of the creature that was turned into one the one that animates it.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheWombatOfDoom View Post
    So I had a thought. Dragons have the power to alter and adapt. What if we take that one step further, and say Dragons can change themselves to a certain degree tio suit their needs. For instance, a wind dragon has thick skin, six limbs, muscles, a long tail and long neck. It's going to be freaking heavy, even with the counteracting wings, hotter than air gas, and such. So what if they didn't have to exibit all of these characteristics all the time?

    [...]

    As for affecting chance/probability/luck, I really don't know how far I want to delve into that. It seems like something that has the potential to be overpowered, and very unlike most of the systems. Its hard to put any kind of cap on this power, and if I go by superstition, it might be delving too much into Magic's belief system, and if I go by foreseeing outcomes, it's too much like Fate's foresight. If it's a blind sort of trust, it’s hard to quantify. Like, the a dragon being charmed sounds nice and fluffy, but I don't see how we can dampen that. Perhaps it can be something like a dragon can shift itself to accommodate that particular encounter, such as becoming harder to hit, thicker skinned, more flexible, faster, so on, and as they get older, they can create more "charms".
    What if dragons evolve over time? Be it by eating creatures that exhibit the trait that they want, for example if a dragon family eats a lot of birds and its descendants keep doing so the dragon will be able to fly. Or what if they do evolve in a lamarckian way? They might be able to choose some abilities at the beginning of the day (much like meldshapes) and go with it.

    [...]

    I think you might want to give them the ability at low level of influencing their rolls (by a small margin on a set direction), and as they gain power allow them to influence others, or influence themselves by a bigger margin or in both axis. They might also benefit from abilities like: a 1 is not an automatic failure, or rerolls, or an enemy rolling a 20 to hit is not an automatic hit. Somethings like that.
    Thanks a lot Gengy for the awesome... just a sec... avatar. :)

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    Default Re: How do Dragons exist? With a lot of Luck!

    Quote Originally Posted by thethird View Post
    Thanks, if the novel I'm trying to write with the setting gets more fleshed out I'll post something (hopefully I can exchange that if for a when).

    One thing that I want to do is explore the line between science fiction and fantasy, because I had certain epiphany some years ago and I want to see where that leads.
    I've certainly bridged that gap a few times with my worldbuilding, but as time has progressed, it's gotten the appearance of fantasy more and more.

    What I am doing with undead, construct, fate and luck is the following.

    Construct work like Asimov Robots but touched with notes from other sci-fi settings. People distrust constructs. Constructs won't harm them but they live for ever, as tools don't have a fate of their own, and even if they have some restrictions most people don't remember/know those and constructs aren't obliged to tell them. Also humans can no longer create constructs, because the technology is lost, they can create simple tools or... undead. If someone has read Robots and Empire or the Evitable conflict by Asimov it is kind of like that. So in this case, luck animates a construct, or gives it the will to keep going.

    Undead are the human response to constructs. A human mechanic might be able to create a good mechanical body, but it is just a piece of metal. Using a soul or a spirit this mannequin can be improved and animated. Think voodoo mixed with mechanics and programming. This undead are at the fair side of the spectrum from constructs, because they lack the knowledge to change their bodies and they are tied to the fate of the human donor. Basically in this case it is the fate of the creature that was turned into one the one that animates it.
    I like the distinction that constructs created undead in idea. As in, the Humans tried to do the same, and got a borg like thing. I'm flirting with making a similar distinction, but I also like the idea Veklim portrayed that constructs and undead are the same thing, but with different materials. We shall see. Either way, your lore is cool! I like it. Were they really called Fate and Luck before you came to this thread, or are you equating it to similar terms for my understanding? Pretty cool coincidence if the former was true.


    What if dragons evolve over time? Be it by eating creatures that exhibit the trait that they want, for example if a dragon family eats a lot of birds and its descendants keep doing so the dragon will be able to fly. Or what if they do evolve in a lamarckian way? They might be able to choose some abilities at the beginning of the day (much like meldshapes) and go with it.
    Both of these options are very interesting...and I'm not sure if either will work the way I want it to, but the way they evolve could be one of these, and it be really interesting to get to. I'm not sure what you mean by meldshapes? See above for a group of descriptions on my dragons I did for Veklim. I also put it on the second post of the thread.


    I think you might want to give them the ability at low level of influencing their rolls (by a small margin on a set direction), and as they gain power allow them to influence others, or influence themselves by a bigger margin or in both axis. They might also benefit from abilities like: a 1 is not an automatic failure, or rerolls, or an enemy rolling a 20 to hit is not an automatic hit. Somethings like that.
    Perhaps...though strictly speaking - I currently don't have a system to run this on currently. As difficult as this might be for a Luck based power - I'm refraining to discuss dice rolls yet because I don't know what the system will be like in this regard. I went into the charms and curses thread of thought thinking of a similar low influence mentality - Harder skin = upping AC, Strengthening arms = more damage to attack, so on. The difficulty with Luck is that controlling chance no longer makes it chance. Its more of a probability effect I guess. The problem is quanitfying random and coincidence. Maybe I should stop calling this Luck...and change it to Life. :-/ It might serve better. I wonder if superstition can go into this at all...like curses/boons and blessings/charms last on things. Like the whole black cat crossing your path is a conditional thing, where black cats were cursed with some sort of deamplifier to something. Or like, a bird excreating on your shoulder being good luck causes an ampilfier.

    I'm also curious how we can make luck relate to fate in an over arching way. Like, premonitions and how it plays a role on the future, past, so on.
    Scientific Name: Wombous apocolypticus | Diet: Apocolypse Pie | Cuddly: Yes

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    Order of the Stick Projects:
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    Dad-a-chum? Dum-a-chum? Ded-a-chek? Did-a-chick?
    Extended Signature | My DeviantArt | Majora's Mask Point Race
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    Default Re: How do Dragons exist? With a lot of Luck!

    Hrm, Fate is about what has been, what will be and the basic interaction of the elements, i.e. the path of time. Luck is about what IS, right now, this very second. It's the infinitesimal point of now which traverses the path of time. They are totally fundamentally different and yet inextricably linked.

    Superstition and the associated 'lucky' and 'unlucky' moments, as well as probability altering and such are actually better used as part of magic. Ancients already have a kind of taboo system, rituals they go through, etc. More to the point, they make use of belief, which in itself is the core of superstition. They do not control luck at all, but merely mimic some influence to impede or assist it, much the same way as they can impede or assist fate (since Magic can affect either force).

    Life is a result of Luck, not the whole of luck, in much the same way that physical matter and it's interactions is a result of Fate, but not the entirety of it. The word 'Luck' has certain connotations (especially within gaming and specifically but not exclusively fantasy/magic based settings), but so does 'Fate'. Breaking these expected conventions is a good thing, so I reckon the names should stay.
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    Default Re: How do Dragons exist? With a lot of Luck!

    Quote Originally Posted by Veklim View Post
    Hrm, Fate is about what has been, what will be and the basic interaction of the elements, i.e. the path of time. Luck is about what IS, right now, this very second. It's the infinitesimal point of now which traverses the path of time. They are totally fundamentally different and yet inextricably linked.

    Superstition and the associated 'lucky' and 'unlucky' moments, as well as probability altering and such are actually better used as part of magic. Ancients already have a kind of taboo system, rituals they go through, etc. More to the point, they make use of belief, which in itself is the core of superstition. They do not control luck at all, but merely mimic some influence to impede or assist it, much the same way as they can impede or assist fate (since Magic can affect either force).

    Life is a result of Luck, not the whole of luck, in much the same way that physical matter and it's interactions is a result of Fate, but not the entirety of it. The word 'Luck' has certain connotations (especially within gaming and specifically but not exclusively fantasy/magic based settings), but so does 'Fate'. Breaking these expected conventions is a good thing, so I reckon the names should stay.
    I suppose we could really assertain in broad terms that Magic is based on past experiences, and present actions toward belief, Luck is present circumstances, and planning effects of the future, and Fate is dependant on what has happened in the past, and what will happen in the future. Handy table!

    -
    Fate
    Luck
    Magic
    Past
    x
    -
    x
    Present
    -
    x
    x
    Future
    x
    x
    -

    I was thinking that these superstitions could be something that Luck had in place that Magic uses to it's advantage. After all, if people already have superstitions, Magic users could use that to their benifit. But overall, I see your point. The whole charms and curses thing we can perhaps go a different way on, but that's a good reminder, so thank you.

    You're also right about Luck not exactly being life. Thanks for the quick response to circumvent further thoughts in these directions. I prefer to break conventions, if this work hadn't tipped you off, I'd just had two seperate people suggest that I change the name to something more fitting to the force, and so I'd considered it and put it out here.

    --

    So! What do we have so far for Luck? At this point it's gone several directions of thoughts, so it's time to pull it back.
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    Default Re: How do Dragons exist? With a lot of Luck!

    Quote Originally Posted by TheWombatOfDoom View Post
    I've certainly bridged that gap a few times with my worldbuilding, but as time has progressed, it's gotten the appearance of fantasy more and more.
    I'm starting to think that the distinction is that science fiction uses things based in science while fantasy does not. Of course, Clarke's third law applies.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheWombatOfDoom View Post
    I like the distinction that constructs created undead in idea. As in, the Humans tried to do the same, and got a borg like thing. I'm flirting with making a similar distinction, but I also like the idea Veklim portrayed that constructs and undead are the same thing, but with different materials. We shall see. Either way, your lore is cool! I like it. Were they really called Fate and Luck before you came to this thread, or are you equating it to similar terms for my understanding? Pretty cool coincidence if the former was true.
    Undead and construct are almost the same thing, their distinction is academic. Humans can't tell the difference. Undead don't know, because humans do not tell them. And most construct exploit the stupidity of the others.

    They aren't actually called fate or luck, because there are too many interactions between fate and luck that I feel would be too constrained if I name them fate and luck. I just dubbed them fate and luck for the thread

    They don't have working names at the moment though.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheWombatOfDoom View Post
    Both of these options are very interesting...and I'm not sure if either will work the way I want it to, but the way they evolve could be one of these, and it be really interesting to get to. I'm not sure what you mean by meldshapes? See above for a group of descriptions on my dragons I did for Veklim. I also put it on the second post of the thread.
    I saw those

    Meldshapes I was thinking of incarnum, 3.5, every class has a set of abilities meldshapes of which they can cherry pick some each day. During the day they can switch the focus on one ability to an other. This way even a dragon who doesn't have wings might grow some vestigial wings and be able to glide or jump high if he needs to.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheWombatOfDoom View Post
    Perhaps...though strictly speaking - I currently don't have a system to run this on currently. As difficult as this might be for a Luck based power - I'm refraining to discuss dice rolls yet because I don't know what the system will be like in this regard. I went into the charms and curses thread of thought thinking of a similar low influence mentality - Harder skin = upping AC, Strengthening arms = more damage to attack, so on. The difficulty with Luck is that controlling chance no longer makes it chance. Its more of a probability effect I guess. The problem is quanitfying random and coincidence. Maybe I should stop calling this Luck...and change it to Life. :-/ It might serve better. I wonder if superstition can go into this at all...like curses/boons and blessings/charms last on things. Like the whole black cat crossing your path is a conditional thing, where black cats were cursed with some sort of deamplifier to something. Or like, a bird excreating on your shoulder being good luck causes an ampilfier.

    I'm also curious how we can make luck relate to fate in an over arching way. Like, premonitions and how it plays a role on the future, past, so on.
    Yes... that makes it complicated... and why I don't use the name on my setting.

    I think that luck should work as an anti-fate, if people tries to make a reading of a really lucky person it would be really hard to understand what it is going to do. There are more paths available to it.
    Thanks a lot Gengy for the awesome... just a sec... avatar. :)

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    Default Re: How do Dragons exist? With a lot of Luck!

    Meld shapes are an interesting route to go with dragons. Specified ways they can change their bodies seems like a neat idea, and one I'll think upon. In general, I'm breathing life into the thread, as it's been awhile. I've gotta gather my thoughts a bit...it's been a hard month...

    But this thread is not dead, that I can assure you folks!

    So, any more opinions on the first post or the current conversation?
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    Default Re: How do Dragons exist? With a lot of Luck!

    So, next up is working out exactly what's going on with dragons. How do they use luck? What do they lose and gain? How often can they use it? So on. How does each species interact with it, if there is a difference.

    On top of that, I know Veklim had some things to say, so I'm opening the conversation back up so he can!
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    Default Re: How do Dragons exist? With a lot of Luck!

    Huzzah!

    Right, just a quick post to spark debate first (and I have a busy day!) but I wanted to address one particular thought I had in a little more detail.

    We've struggled to figure out exactly how a Dragon interacts with other life, we already established they're basically genetic engineers, playing with the building blocks of life and reconfiguring it to suit their purposes, whims and needs. We have also discussed their ability to adapt their own form, discussed the ideas of 'morphic' organs, symbiotic relationships and hyper-specialised biological systems....I'm thinking these could actually be achieved by a single process.

    Dragons vary wildly in appearance, size, mental capacity and basic biological structure, numbers of limbs and organs have little common ground, sentience is not guaranteed, they range from the size of a bull to the size of a blue whale (if not larger) and exist across multiple environments, but they all have one thing in common...much like the Elvori's 'elemental gland', all Dragons hold within them a common piece of biology which is unseen anywhere else in existence, but unlike the Elvori gland, this is both far smaller and yet far more incredible. Multitudinous and microscopic in nature, and prolific throughout the body, in the bloodstream, bone marrow and brain of every dragon is a colony of what can only be described as a virus. This is in fact the true nature of all dragon-kind, the creature seen is merely the 'shell', the body which this virus has built with which to interact with a macroscopic world. When a Dragon wishes to change itself physically, all that is required is the will to do so and the time and energy involved to make it happen, the shell can be shaped beyond the stretch of normal biology. When a Dragon wishes to change life around it, it must essentially infect that organism to do so, putting a part of itself inside this life and shaping it from within. By this process the infection eventually disappears, since only the body a Dragon makes of itself can sustain it's particular strain of virus indefinitely, but the creature or plant left behind will have been altered in some fundamental if small way.

    Some Dragons believe their species represents the ultimate conclusion of evolution from the very first life, the source of all things living on their world. Indeed they believe it was early mutations and experiments which created both the Elvori and the Ancients, influenced by the primal energies which still raged when the world was young (since both Elvori and Ancients seem immune to a Dragon's altering capabilities, logic would dictate they have been infected before, and developed an immunity). Others hold that they were once normal creatures much like any other, and a disease made them what they are now, being down to nothing but pure chance. Others still will just foam at the mouth and eat you, but they are less engaging in conversation to be fair... Regardless of the stories (or lack thereof) any individual Dragon may have regarding their nature and inception, ALL Dragons have some control over this power, albeit some more consciously than others.
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    Default Re: How do Dragons exist? With a lot of Luck!

    So dragons wouldn't really be the Luck users, but the virus is? It seems a little strange compared to the other two users...hrmmmm.
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    Default Re: How do Dragons exist? With a lot of Luck!

    All multi-cellular life is essentially a huge symibiotic mass of specialised cells, it's just that Dragons are more immediately so, it's not so much of a stretch really. Without the virus, a Dragon wouldn't exist in the first place, and a Dragon which somehow loses the virus won't last the day, since it's an otherwise biologically impossible design, so really there's no difference in the grand scheme of things other than a simple explaination and a unique mechanic.

    If it helps, just look at the virus as a de-centralised organ (since an organ is merely a collection of similar role-specific cells anyhow), thing is this gives you a chance to run in a 100 different directions with them, makes the reproductive process incredibly adaptable (change a creature enough to be able to host the virus permanently and it essentially becomes a new dragon after all) and offers up some tasty possibilities regarding infected humans and animals which could perhaps act as temporary 'spies' or 'agents'...

    Either way, it's only a thought, just wanted to air it since the idea has bounced around my head for ages!
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    Default Re: How do Dragons exist? With a lot of Luck!

    Quote Originally Posted by Veklim View Post
    All multi-cellular life is essentially a huge symibiotic mass of specialised cells, it's just that Dragons are more immediately so, it's not so much of a stretch really. Without the virus, a Dragon wouldn't exist in the first place, and a Dragon which somehow loses the virus won't last the day, since it's an otherwise biologically impossible design, so really there's no difference in the grand scheme of things other than a simple explaination and a unique mechanic.

    If it helps, just look at the virus as a de-centralised organ (since an organ is merely a collection of similar role-specific cells anyhow), thing is this gives you a chance to run in a 100 different directions with them, makes the reproductive process incredibly adaptable (change a creature enough to be able to host the virus permanently and it essentially becomes a new dragon after all) and offers up some tasty possibilities regarding infected humans and animals which could perhaps act as temporary 'spies' or 'agents'...

    Either way, it's only a thought, just wanted to air it since the idea has bounced around my head for ages!
    Interesting....so in theory, the Dragons could have branched off from the Ancient/Elvori strand by mutating from a virus early on?

    Your description is one that I like, but some of the conotations first made me wary. Describing a dragon as a shell for me seemed a bit...harsh for lack of better term. But the more I've considered it, the more I enjoy entertaining the idea.

    First, if this IS a virus, then whatever way the dragons use to alter something give that thing the virus, because that's how viruses work. Perhaps then it goes dormant, since it is not being manipulated by the source, or dragon, once contact is broken. However, once the dragon resumes contact at a later time, it might be easier to manipulate the infected creature. This virus can't be spread to other living things by the creature infected, only a dragon.

    I want there to be drawbacks for this virus, that is instilled in Dragon culture. "Madness" is certainly a sideeffect, which is really just a wild dragon. I feel that the wild ones are more dangerous because they use life in survival methods only, while sentient dragons use it for a variety of reasons. Wild ones will also not be using it intentionally.

    So, Dragons are symboitic hosts for a virus that both helps them and hurts them. This means that of the three forces, Dragons are the most attuned to their own. The virus is life in it's most primal and basic form. I think I'd like a new name for it rather than Virus, but we shall see what happens. Hmmm...how about just calling it Life?

    This also means if a Dragon looses it's connection to Life, it dies fairly quickly, which makes sense. Perhaps mutations could be a real problem, such as cancers and other things, especially if they change too often.

    Elvori might be immune to the effects of Dragons power directly, but Ancients are not. Dragons gave the Ancients the connection to their Creatures of the Bond long ago.

    Well folks...it appears I'm back! After a long break of hiatus, and such, I'm back in the creative mood. Contributions welcome!
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    Default Re: How do Dragons exist? With a lot of Luck!

    Quote Originally Posted by TheWombatOfDoom View Post
    Interesting....so in theory, the Dragons could have branched off from the Ancient/Elvori strand by mutating from a virus early on? *snip!* Elvori might be immune to the effects of Dragons power directly, but Ancients are not. Dragons gave the Ancients the connection to their Creatures of the Bond long ago.
    Or Dragons and Elvori mutated from the SAME virus...hear me out. Dragons have become one with the virus, using it's power to direct their own evolution and that of other life. Over the millenia the boundary between Dragon and virus has dwindled to the point that they are indistinguishable. Elvori developed an immunity to the virus instead of symbiosing(?!), using their elemental bond to tether the vulnerable sections of their genetics from change and therefore developing an immunity to the virus (explaining why Luck and Fate users can't affect each other directly, since they both attach to the same genetic markers).

    Also, if Elvori fate was used in the creation of Creatures of The Bond, would this imply that those creatures are immune to luck...?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheWombatOfDoom View Post
    This also means if a Dragon looses it's connection to Life, it dies fairly quickly, which makes sense. Perhaps mutations could be a real problem, such as cancers and other things, especially if they change too often.
    This could actually explain a lot about 'banished' dragons, they have lost their minds to excessive self-change and are no longer able to moderate the extent and type of changes they impose with their Luck use, both on themselves and on others. As such, those Dragons who are still doing their job of moderating and tending life will remove them from the ecosystem to avoid the erratic and pointless destabilisation a 'mad' dragon will always eventually cause.

    I like the idea (dunno if it fits or not) of a mad Dragon losing their grip very slowly, becoming more and more reflexive with their Luck use, and less and less considerate of the damage their 'creations' and themselves cause. Eventually the link they have with life around them degrades completely and they become a liability to all life. Perhaps (and this is a bigger jump in my mind) this is an inevitable part of being a sentient Dragon in the first place, using Luck presents a strain on a developed mind, due to the erratic and instinctual nature of Luck use itself. This would mean mad dragons are always mature and often alarmingly old and powerful. Luckily most Dragons die before they lose it completely (possibly even voluntarily ending their lives to avoid the madness), but longer-lived and more intelligent Dragons are more likely to go mad eventually, turning into clever but brutally instinctual creatures with horrifying power and little-to-no compassion or remorse. This also happens to solve your indecision over Dragon ages to a certain extent, they have VERY long lives, but after a couple of centuries the madness starts to set in, so most 'civilised' Dragons will only live so long.

    This brings me to the Dragon's reason for retreating to their own continent, as far as most everyone else is concerned, I'm sure you have much fluff concerned, but perhaps the Dragons themselves chose to move so they could develop an ecology to produce the things they need to keep life evolving in relative balance, free from the interference (intentional or otherwise) of the Elvori, mad dragons, and every other bugger out there. As long as they can maintain their own continent precisely as they need it, there will always be enough diversity to repopulate should something truly drastic occur...?

    ----------------------------

    Well, I've ranted a bit, not much, but a bit. I'll wait until you can give me some discussion criteria before I delve anywhere else
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    Default Re: How do Dragons exist? With a lot of Luck!

    Regarding a name for the 'virus' how about Anima? Fits the concept and sounds good!
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    Default Re: How do Dragons exist? With a lot of Luck!

    So what you're saying is that all supernatural powers are founded by this virus?

    I'm not sure...I mean, a lot of this is thematically consistant with Luck, since it's life and such...but if it's a virus, and the Elvori also have it in some fashion, I'm not sure how to explain that when Anchients and Elvori mate, they get a child devoid of the virus.

    Evolutionarily, the Elvori are like the Neanderthals were to homosapians - very closely related, split off from the Anchients much sooner than say, Dragons, which split off very early on in evolution, hense the 3 set of limbs, instead of 2.

    How would the Anchients fit into this? Would you surmise them to be un-virus'd humanoids, and Elvori are? Immune?

    Its certainly an interesting scientific explaination as to how Luck and Fate interact, but I think it might need some refining, and integration of the third force - Magic, before continuing.

    As for Mad Dragons, I'm not so sure if the non mad ones would think it a good idea to send them anywhere, and instead kill them. If they're that unstable and troublesome, just think of the havok the might cause to the rest of the world. I think they wouldn't abide something that could constantly effect things, unpredictably. Banishing seems more like a solution if the opposite were to occur - they no longer could effect Luck directly/they lost their connection.

    However, you did give me some thoughts in regards to why the Dragons pulled back. I have currently that the reason they pulled back to their homelands is that due to them being weaker when Luck was not in force, and due to their influences on the disasters that occured that nearly killed off the Anchients and destroyed the world, they've returned to their own lands to remove themselves from the equation.

    What if instead, there is a breach... a leak... a problem with the world, caused at some point, that they are trying to heal. Or perhaps they're trying to preserve animals that otherwise would have gone extinct. Or perhaps they aren't really pulled back at all, and the sane Dragons are the ones wandering the world, while thier homeland is taken over by the wild ones.

    Many ideas...

    This brings me to the Dragon's reason for retreating to their own continent, as far as most everyone else is concerned, I'm sure you have much fluff concerned, but perhaps the Dragons themselves chose to move so they could develop an ecology to produce the things they need to keep life evolving in relative balance, free from the interference (intentional or otherwise) of the Elvori, mad dragons, and every other bugger out there. As long as they can maintain their own continent precisely as they need it, there will always be enough diversity to repopulate should something truly drastic occur...?
    I do like yours too...a bit too much... You might have something there too.
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    Default Re: How do Dragons exist? With a lot of Luck!

    After reading this thread I cannot help but see a Tolkien-esk link (I'm sorry). Using "the song" as reference your fate seems to be like the elves, their path decided from beginning to end. No matter what choices they made it would always be as it was put out in "the song". Your dragons seem much like the humans, their path was undecided and no power could tell them exactly what implications any action they took may be. They both interacted in the same world, at the same time. Another analogy although less theatric is dragons by nature represent chaos even though they may not actively perform chaotic actions. They are a variable in the equation of the universe that fate is trying to balance ala the matrix.

    I know this doesn't really assist much just merely observations. I do apologise for using lotr as reference as well.

    Finally I'm on my smart phone so sorry for wall of text.

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    Default Re: How do Dragons exist? With a lot of Luck!

    Quote Originally Posted by Xet View Post
    After reading this thread I cannot help but see a Tolkien-esk link (I'm sorry). Using "the song" as reference your fate seems to be like the elves, their path decided from beginning to end. No matter what choices they made it would always be as it was put out in "the song". Your dragons seem much like the humans, their path was undecided and no power could tell them exactly what implications any action they took may be. They both interacted in the same world, at the same time. Another analogy although less theatric is dragons by nature represent chaos even though they may not actively perform chaotic actions. They are a variable in the equation of the universe that fate is trying to balance ala the matrix.

    I know this doesn't really assist much just merely observations. I do apologise for using lotr as reference as well.

    Finally I'm on my smart phone so sorry for wall of text.
    You should check out my Fate system, it's linked in my signature, and then tell me if it still reminds you of such.

    No worries, I'm sure anything fantasy will remind someone of Tolkien somewhere.
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    Default Re: How do Dragons exist? With a lot of Luck!

    I'm not suggesting the Elvori came from the virus, I'm saying they developed their bond to the elements which granted them immunity to the virus. As a result, the remaining Ancients have only half the immunity of Elvori, meaning they could be resistant to both the virus AND fate weaving, but still at least partially susceptible to either. This Elvori immunity could be as a result of fate and luck doing some sort of auto-correction to rebalance the world after Dragons achieved their symbiosis. It also gives a good reason for Ancients' magic use, since they have influences from both fate and luck during the race's inception in this case, and we've established magic is basically a bi-product of fate and luck interacting ( I still like the 'heat' analogy from the friction of those two primal forces).
    Last edited by Veklim; 2014-05-18 at 08:53 AM. Reason: not-so-smartphone
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    Default Re: How do Dragons exist? With a lot of Luck!

    Quote Originally Posted by Veklim View Post
    I'm not suggesting the Elvori came from the virus, I'm saying they developed their bond to the elements which granted them immunity to the virus. As a result, the remaining Ancients have only half the immunity of Elvori, meaning they could be resistant to both the virus AND fate weaving, but still at least partially susceptible to either. This Elvori immunity could be as a result of fate and luck doing some sort of auto-correction to rebalance the world after Dragons achieved their symbiosis. It also gives a good reason for Ancients' magic use, since they have influences from both fate and luck during the race's inception in this case, and we've established magic is basically a bi-product of fate and luck interacting ( I still like the 'heat' analogy from the friction of those two primal forces).
    Hmmm. Instead of viruses, what if we went with cells? After all, with the Fate we've broken things down into the laws of physics...we could break luck down similarly, perhaps. What about different kinds of living organisms. Mammals, Insects, Birds...

    Not that I don't mind the virus tangent, its just a little hard to follow for me, and hard to wrap my head around in a creative way, which is important to the development process. I wonder if there's any examples in fiction already of the kind of process you're describing...
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  22. - Top - End - #52
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: How do Dragons exist? With a lot of Luck!

    The only reference which springs instantly to mind is a fantastic book called 'Heart of the Comet', but there are many out there, I'll list more if they come to mind.

    To wrap the idea in a nutshell, this virus/bacteria/fungus/infection-of-some-type occurred at the point when Dragons and Elvori split genetically. Some of the population developed an immunity to the infection via a glandular adaption (see development of the human lymphatic system), and these became the Elvori. Others developed a symbiosis with the infection instead , amalgamating it into their own biology (see how most cellular organelles have come into being) becoming Dragons. The third group were affected by the infection but developed neither an immunity nor a symbiosis, and we're thusly changed in a third way (eventually becoming the original Ancients).

    Hope that simplifies the idea a little for better understanding of my broken ranting!
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  23. - Top - End - #53
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: How do Dragons exist? With a lot of Luck!

    Quote Originally Posted by Veklim View Post
    The only reference which springs instantly to mind is a fantastic book called 'Heart of the Comet', but there are many out there, I'll list more if they come to mind.

    To wrap the idea in a nutshell, this virus/bacteria/fungus/infection-of-some-type occurred at the point when Dragons and Elvori split genetically. Some of the population developed an immunity to the infection via a glandular adaption (see development of the human lymphatic system), and these became the Elvori. Others developed a symbiosis with the infection instead , amalgamating it into their own biology (see how most cellular organelles have come into being) becoming Dragons. The third group were affected by the infection but developed neither an immunity nor a symbiosis, and we're thusly changed in a third way (eventually becoming the original Ancients).

    Hope that simplifies the idea a little for better understanding of my broken ranting!
    So the question with this is, how "mechanically" can we explain the process like we have with Fate and Magic....
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  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Default Re: How do Dragons exist? With a lot of Luck!

    Alright, so we are back after a long hiatus. My excuse? I got married and promoted. It's been a busy time in my life.

    So I've been thinking about luck in general, and I had a thought...what if creatures in the dragon lands begin picking up traits and characteristics of the specific dragon in the area that they dwell? So we could have the potential of several variations of creatures depending on location...
    Scientific Name: Wombous apocolypticus | Diet: Apocolypse Pie | Cuddly: Yes

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  25. - Top - End - #55
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    Default Re: How do Dragons exist? With a lot of Luck!

    Alright, I had a thought that might just help bring this project around.

    So, dragons draw on the power of life. I'm thinking maybe they can use living things as a source for their power. So for example, how witches in some stories use "eye of newt, toe of frog" etc. What do you guys think?
    Scientific Name: Wombous apocolypticus | Diet: Apocolypse Pie | Cuddly: Yes

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    Order of the Stick Projects:
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