[Spell] OW!

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Flay
Conjuration
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Area: One living creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial; see text
Spell Resistance: No

With a touch you cause a being's outter epidermis to rip itself from its body and fall limply to the ground. They must succeed on a fortitude save or die instantly. If they succeed on the save they still sustain 10d6 points of damage. They also take 1 point of constitution damage from blood-loss per round as long as they retain the damage mentioned above. A secondary fortitude save must be made every round while flayed or be stunned from the shock and pain.

The victim loses any natural armor bonus to AC. All subdual damage while the victim is flayed is considered to be lethal. Its movement rates are halved and the victim may not run without taking an additional 1d6 points of damage per round.

The victim must be healed of the original damage sustained to regain their skin

Elementals, oozes and incorporeal creatures are unaffected by this spell.

Arcane Focus: A razor blade.

[Amotis]

Um, same question. What about insects? Things with exoskeletons?

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Um, same question. What about insects? Things with exoskeletons?

Why wouldn't it work on them? Said no to oozes and elementals only because they don't really have 'skin'.

And though most vermin have only exoskeletons, there are some I believe that have an exoskeleton and a bit of an inner one. And the strange vermin in D&D... who knows.

Though I guess I could say it reduces a vermin's strength to 0... but that'd be too strong. Anyone could take on even epic vermin then as the save only keeps you from dying, not losing your skin.

[Karsh]

I would suggest that the skin damage cannot be repaired without a Heal spell or something similarly high level, given the horrendously powerful source of this attack.

Also... 1d10 CON damage on a passed save per round? How many rounds does that last for? The duration of the spell is instantaneous right now. Also, 1d10 seems like a hell of a lot for a failed save, even if it is a 9th level spell. I'd suggest lowering the CON damage die by at least two steps. More, depending on how long that effect lasts.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

I would suggest that the skin damage cannot be repaired without a Heal spell or something similarly high level, given the horrendously powerful source of this attack.

Well, I mean, if you heal all the damage of losing your skin then logically your skin must be back. Sure, while partially healed you'll be a monsterous walking scab, but...

Also... 1d10 CON damage on a passed save per round? How many rounds does that last for? The duration of the spell is instantaneous right now.

The duration is instantaneous because the affect is. The aftermath however continues on. If you have no skin you should be bleeding to death easily.

Also, 1d10 seems like a hell of a lot for a failed save, even if it is a 9th level spell. I'd suggest lowering the CON damage die by at least two steps. More, depending on how long that effect lasts.

I dunno, its only an average of 35 points you sustain if you make the save. Any party with a healer should be able to manage that in a single casting easier than breathing.

[Karsh]

I have no problem with the damage dice, I'm talking about the CON damage. If it's 1d10 points of CON damage, and then nothing more the next round, then yeah, I could allow that. But multiple rounds of CON damage with the potential to do that much damage might as well make a new classification of spell:

Die-or-Die-Anyways

[Peregrine]

OW.

...

I mean, seriously, OW.

Anyway. Again on the Con thing... in 3.5, a single instance of Con loss is supposed to represent a bleeding wound. I don't know why this is supposed to be better mechanically than ongoing HP loss (3e), but WotC must think it is.

Your spell gives the worst of both worlds: Con loss rather than HP, but ongoing rather than once-off. Which makes me think it's probably a trifle too much.

Also, I was under the impression that the Restoration line of spells were supposed to be able to restore lost body parts... but the SRD text doesn't support this. It does however say that they can restore one or all ability scores' damage or drain, depending on the Restoration spell. So this could heal the Con damage, but not the HP loss. Now, if you keep the Con loss as an ongoing thing, that's okay -- Restoration will stave off death by restoring Con, but it'll just start bleeding out again on the next round -- but if you make it just once-off Con loss, then healing the Con damage should have some visible effect. Perhaps it restores the skin, perhaps not -- it might make you the 'monstrous walking scab' you mentioned. So that way, healing the HP gives you back your skin, but not necessarily the blood lost; healing the Con damage reverses (and stops, if it's a one-off) the blood loss, but you still don't have skin (and the other penalties should apply).

[Callos_DeTerran]

This....ow.....Just ow.....



My two coppers? Make this an [Evil] spell. I can see no self aware good spellcaster casting this unless their making a short trip to evil. I mean...this is like Corrupt spells evil. Rip a creatures skin off and on a successful save leave them alive with no skin on?

[Demented]

It's very possible that removing all skin wouldn't hurt too much, since it's the skin that's meant to external pains. So just remove the surface layer of skin so the flesh is raw.

The material component, nay, arcane focus, should be a razorblade, or better, a cheese grater. Just to get the point across.

[Gerrtt]

I have to say, I'm thouroughly amused and grinning with approval. Good one VT.

[Mike_Lemmer]

Well, you could compare it to Flensing (lvl 8, CArc), which does the same thing but slower.

Still, comparing this spell (Lvl 9) with it (Lvl 8), I'd say this spell is at least twice as good as it, so there's an imbalance somewhere.

Oh, and it is [Evil].

[erewhon]

How does this compare to Flensing?

I suspect the ongoing Con drain might be a bit much. It is Touch only, meaning you have to hit touch AC (not trivial against many folks at this level) and then they save versus insta-death and take a good shot in the chops anyway.

Seems built off a ninth level Disintegrate chassis to me.... Which is perfectly fine, except for the Con drain.

Make the Con drain a 1-time thing, and this is more reasonable, with total damage on a failed save then being 35 points + 60 points lost due to losing +3 con bonus times 20-odd levels, all reparable with a Mass Heal or Heal.

Looks pretty balanced at that point. Interesting design. :)

[Rumda]

and with the natural armour removed then most non-humanoids at that level will fall very easily, since you just have to roll against the touch ac basicly

[Maryring]

1d10 con damage each round IS too much, considering that if the Cleric or Druid, if the party even HAVE one of those, has about 6 seconds to run to said ally in order to save his life and then cast a spell that in and itself is more powerful than the damage done. (Heal would heal 150 damage, assuming single class level 15+, and with an average damage of 35 points according to your calculation.)

It IS evil, it is also slightly overpowered as it is now. Because, as said earlier, this is a die-or-die-anyway spell. Other than that... *shudder*, still a good job.

[Yuki Akuma]

Perhaps making it one of those spells that drains your own ability scores (probably Constitution in this case) would make it more balanced.

And, yes, it should be [Evil]!

[Simius]

Nice spell, Tribble

But how about undead? Trying to rip the skin of a skeleton would be rather pointless, I'd imagine, and a zombie's skin is allready half-decayed.

I'd also think that 'pain and shock' wouldn't be much of a factor on undead.

edit: Nevermind me. I should read stuff better before posting.

[NullAshton]

I would suggest that there would be a second fortitude save or suffer the loss of the skin. Because otherwise, a greater rod of maximize and this? 60 instant damage and loss of 10 constitution, which means 200 some HP for 40 hitdie creatures... with no save...

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Alright, alright, how does just one measely be of Con damage per round sound?

My two coppers? Make this an [Evil] spell. I can see no self aware good spellcaster casting this unless their making a short trip to evil. I mean...this is like Corrupt spells evil. Rip a creatures skin off and on a successful save leave them alive with no skin on?

I don't really think there should be an evil descriptor because the act of pulling off skin is really horrible, but their is nothing inherently evil about actually pulling off skin.

Thing is, I can imagine good-aligned uses for this believe it or not. There are some parasitic creatures and spells that directly affect the skin. Remove it, and instantly reheal and everything is gone. I'm even thinking you could use this to remove a Mark of Justice.

The material component, nay, arcane focus, should be a razorblade, or better, a cheese grater.

That'd work.

Perhaps making it one of those spells that drains your own ability scores (probably Constitution in this case) would make it more balanced.

I thought about about drain... but drain means there is something in addition keeping your body from ever recovering. If you are healed and the skin regrown you should be able to heal back the damage from bloodloss.

But how about undead? Trying to rip the skin of a skeleton would be rather pointless, I'd imagine, and a zombie's skin is allready half-decayed.

I'd also think that 'pain and shock' wouldn't be much of a factor on undead.

"Area: One living creature touched"

[Yuki Akuma]

I thought about about drain... but drain means there is something in addition keeping your body from ever recovering. If you are healed and the skin regrown you should be able to heal back the damage from bloodloss.

What?

No.

Read your copy of the Book of Vile Darkness, or its good-aligned counterpart.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

*blinks in confusion*

[Karsh]

This is another nit-picky thing, but I really like this spell.

You need to specify when the duration of the CON loss would end. I would assume that it is when the creature's skin is restored (I.E. the damage from Flay is healed), but ambiguity in a spell description is a bad thing.

[Maryring]

Basically, when you cast a Corrupt spell, you suffer drain. For example, "Apocalypse from the sky" has a Corruption cost of 1d4 points of wisdom drain for having prepared, and a Corruption cost of 2d4 points of wisdom wisdom drain when casted. This means that when you prepare the spell, you take 1d4 points of wisdom drain, and when you cast it you suffer 2d4 points of wisdom drain.

Going to your spell, I would suggest giving it a corruption cost of about 1d4 points of constitution drain.

And your reasons for using it aren't good. Simply because they could be cured more benevolently and without any pain and damage involved at all by a Heal or Break Enchantment (it removes Mark of Justice, does it not) spell. And why on EARTH would you cast a spell that is designed to kill someone in a very painful way on an ally to cure him or her?

[Peregrine]

Thing is, I can imagine good-aligned uses for this believe it or not. There are some parasitic creatures and spells that directly affect the skin. Remove it, and instantly reheal and everything is gone. I'm even thinking you could use this to remove a Mark of Justice.

*blink*

*blinkblink*

Remind me never to seek dermatological treatment from Dr V. Tribble.

Seriously, this spell reads like it's designed to rip the skin from a living body. (You can't even use it to skin a slain creature -- 'living' only.) That sounds pretty evil. There are always good ends that can be achieved by evil means (and [evil] spells), but if I needed my Magical Dermatitis of Doom cured, I wouldn't go to the creepy wizard with the humanskin-bound spellbook, I'd go to the cleric who can cast skinpurge (hypothetical spell I just made up, dissolves the skin and instantly replaces it with a fresh new layer; no agonising pain, just some minor discomfort and a lasting tingling sensation).

[Pronounceable]

Ow. Ow. Ow. Ow. Ow. Ow. Ow. Ow... You get the point.

You know, I really think that FAILING the save should leave the victim alive. Someone whose skin has been ripped off would PREFER to be dead, I'd imagine.

Yes, it is evil.

[Grey Knight]

It's very possible that removing all skin wouldn't hurt too much, since it's the skin that's meant to external pains. So just remove the surface layer of skin so the flesh is raw.

Unless it's finessed enough to leave the nerves present and exposed. In which case... ouch.

You can't even use it to skin a slain creature -- 'living' only.

That's a nice point; there should be a Druid/Ranger spell for skinning dead animals; it could probably be lower-level, considering.

[XtheYeti]

...lich...with skin...from some one ealse...for my horrors campain...BWAHAHAHA!!!!

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Going to your spell, I would suggest giving it a corruption cost of about 1d4 points of constitution drain.

Ooh, gotcha. Err, no. It may be an evil act to rip forth skin, but there is no reason it should be evil to that degree.

And why on EARTH would you cast a spell that is designed to kill someone in a very painful way on an ally to cure him or her?

Because it was early in the morning and in the haze of a brain fart I had forgotten this kills on a failed save...

That's a nice point; there should be a Druid/Ranger spell for skinning dead animals; it could probably be lower-level, considering.

Already working on one ;)

This flaying idea was actually spawned when I was working on my entry for the Gift contest to which it relates.

[Mauril Everleaf]

this is probably the sickest thing i have ever read. good job VT. agreed with the [evil] tag, this is way too creepy to not be evil. and what happens to the skin? is it torn off in pieces? as a whole suit? is it disolved or disentintegrated? just wondering how it would work in regards to resurrection (which still requires some piece of the person). i wouldnt want to have to carry back the bloodied, skinless corpse of the guy, if i can just take a swath of skin. still <jibblies>

[Rapida]

very cool spell. I can imagine a blood magus using this.

[Maryring]

Well, the constitution drain/damage was just a suggestion. There are some less evil spells with the Corruption descriptor, and there are some more evil spells without it. There's no pattern. It was just a balancing suggestion, because if it damaged the caster, as well as the target, the caster would be a bit more careful with when and how to cast the spell. Still, this is a spell I would place in BoVD, for nastiness effect. Good job.