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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: A Whole New Era (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic View Post
    Few major concerns strike me right off the bat with your specific ideas. There are more points than this in the document, but I figured it best to start with the conceptual issues rather than the smaller mechanical ones.
    Well, right off the bat, I have to give you a minor correction first and part of that is miscommunication and part of that is because I haven't been good at keeping my thread here fully up-to-date on my notes as I work through this game.

    Warrior hit dice does not grant a +2 bonus to all skills and skill points and skilled hit dice does not grant a -2 to all skills and skill points on the +0/0/0/4+int average.
    What happens is that average HD characters can start with that as the average and choose to gain a -2 to one thing to get a +2 to another, so a character with average hit dice can choose to design a character with a -2 to fort saves to get a +2 to reflex saves or a -2 to reflex saves for a +2 to skill points. You can do this as often as you want as long as you don't go higher than +2 or lower than -2 on any one thing.
    Warrior-types gain a +2 that they can add to any one thing even before choosing to add a -2 somewhere for a +2 somewhere else, so you could pick that +2 to go into for saves and then choose to reduce skills to 2+int (-2 to skills) for another +2 to reflex saves to keep will saves average.
    Skilled HD types get a -2 to one.

    One of the other things I've changed that I have in my notes now in regards to HD is something that may, at least in some small way, address a pertinent concern.
    In addition to what you already know, I've decided to include another difference between the HD types in order to help accentuate more of a ... non-numbers difference.
    Characters with average hit dice gain feats like all characters did in 3.5 edition (at first level and every three levels) and they gain +1 to two different ability scores of their option at 4th level and every four levels thereafter.
    Characters with warrior hit dice gain feats at odd levels like pathfinder and they gain a +1 bonus to three different ability scores of their option at every 4th level.
    Characters with skilled hit dice gain a feat at 1st and every four levels thereafter and +1 to one ability score every 4th.

    So I think this means a lot in regard to really making the warrior chassis a strong one but also the increased access to feats, of which combat feats are much more powerful for warrior-types than average or skilled types due to having more attacks and a higher base combat bonus, as many such feats will be designed to scale with BCB and some will get bonuses for simply having warrior HD. I've littered some of my previous posts with examples but more on all this later.

    Right now, I'm working through the race section, which also includes rules for advanced and young age, alignment, and randomized height and weight. After which, I'll begin working on the section that covers combat hit dice (what I called warrior hit dice), average hit dice, and skilled hit dice. I've decided to stop calling them archetypes in order to avoid confusion with pathfinder's class archetypes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic View Post
    The way these are constructed just screams out a desire to make more powerful abilities for the Skilled type, and letting the Warrior type survive on it's incredibly better chassis. That's sort of one of the main reasons 3.5 balance issues are where they are: it's extremely hard to balance when you're balancing abstract and multi-purpose abilities against flat system numbers.
    Well, here's the rub - during class design, separating HD as a separate mechanic means you're no longer comparing the fighter to the wizard.
    Now you're comparing the fighter's bonus feats to the wizard's spells, bonus feats, and familiar (in 3.5).
    11 feats versus several dozen spells, including about a half dozen or so 9th level spells, some of which can kill a crowd of people as a standard action if they fail a fortitude saving throw.

    The contrast suddenly becomes much more stark when you level the playing field in that manner and not only that, but it gives you a sense of scale. You're not designing the first 10 primary abiltiies to be as powerful as a 20th level skilled wizard, you're designing the first ten primary abilites to be as powerful as a 10th level wizard's primary abilities.

    Designing skilled fighters that can also be warrior fighters and warrior wizards that can also be skilled wizards is just what you might call an engineering problem and something I'll elaborate on in a moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic View Post
    What will you give the Skilled, for example, that makes up for about 50 bonus hit points, an extra +10 to attack, AC, and initiative, 3 extra attacks, +2 to all saves, +40 skill points? How will you make sure that advantage is actually balanced?

    Designers of all calibers have tried and failed over the years to balance this numerical, system-level power gap through abilities. It's given us some horribly weak classes, and some horribly powerful classes. As such, I'd strongly advise against it, especially because with three archetypes with such strict innate power differences, your system is already beginning to feel constrictive rather than expansive.

    Also note that Skilled actually gets the least skill points, which seems...wrong. Maybe a different name?
    To be frank, I figure as long as I don't do worse, I'll come out ahead, but I'm still aiming to improve.
    One thing I should mention is that some of those numbers actually mean more considering some of my other changes than they did in PF and 3.5. Hitting touch AC isn't a cakewalk anymore (even hitting regular AC is now difficult, even for warriors), all creatures are limited by HD-based attacks so shape-changers can't get more attacks by choosing a form that has more natural attacks than you do. These are minor points, but important ones because the fallback argument in every fighter v wizard debate is how easily magic can replicate these benefits - something I intent to change when I get around to designing spells and monsters.

    What I hope and what will actually happen are two different things, but I never expected it to be easy. Plus, even if I finish my work on this draft of this project, it's not even a pre-rough draft and my work through it will be made public.

    Also, "skilled" as in "more skilled in your chosen profession" so only skilled wizards can get 9th level spells by default - or at least that's the reasoning. I'm not partial to any of these names.

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic View Post
    "All classes will have 20 primary, 10 secondary, and 10 tertiary abilities, or rather abilities that can take advantage of all 20 primary, 10 secondary, and 10 tertiary and will have a mix of such abilities that allows them to fulfill multiple roles or the same role in more than one way."
    Well, if I said that it was my intention that every class gets 20 - 40 unique abilities, then, well, I was wrong. Primary/secondary/tertiary abilities are basically just a way of saying that you get X ability if you have Y many primary abilities or secondary yadda yadda yadda.

    This means that the 3.5e fighter would be written as something like:
    Bonus Feat: You gain one bonus combat feat when you gain your first primary ability and you gain an additional bonus combat feat each time you gain two primary abilities.
    Sadly, that would be it.

    ... or something to that effect. What it means though is that abilities will be grouped by relative power and importance to the core class concept.
    The real benefit here though is multiclassing.
    I'm both excited and dreading (especially dreading) getting to the point to figuring out how multiclassing works in this game. For obvious reasons, it may end up getting seriously convulted, but if I can somehow avoid that, then the result will be awesome.
    Imagine being able to take a feat to replace your secondary and/or tertiary abilities with the primary abilities of another class. You get a default theurge class. That's a whole class of classes, prestige classes, and so on that now no longer need to exist... or may simply be reduced to a couple of thematic feats.
    That's the hope, anyway, but it's going to be difficult to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic View Post
    This is...alarming. I have yet to meet a player who can reliably remember 30-40 abilities during the average play-session unless those abilities are nicely constrained by a sub-system (Wizard's Spells, 4e's At-Will / Per-Encounter / Per-Day system, etc.) that can help them immediately identify a smaller sub-set of their abilities that may have immediate use. This goes doubly for the Skilled classes since, by merit of their incredibly weak chassis, their abilities will have to all be stronger and thus more useful in more situations. We're looking at character sheet glut, likely player confusion, and a lot of abilities forgotten until after they would have been useful and/or necessary. 30-40 abilities is a lot to remember at a given time, and some amount of simplicity is required even in the most complicated of class-based systems. Then we add 6 starting feats, and feat every other level.
    This is absolutely my biggest concern in that I don't want to design something more convulted than what's already there. This may be unavoidable in some ways but I'll work like hell to be sure to avoid this problem. I'll have plenty of time to work out the kinks once I have at least most of the ink on the paper, so to speak.

    Also, just to note, those six starting feats are not in addition to things like proficiency, those ARE your proficiency feats.
    The fighter's six starting feats would be the three armor proficiency feats, simple and martial weapon proficiency, and shield proficiency. Classes can have fewer than six but not more and this limit is important for a number of things, such as creatures, templates, and multiclassing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic View Post
    The whole point of Archetypes seemed to be to allow greater flexibility...but I can't imagine ever making a Skilled Fighter, Barbarian, or Paladin, for example. Nor a Warrior Psion or Wizard, unless the ability selection still allowed me to get all the strongest aspects of those classes, in which case I'd probably never not pick Warrior.
    The fact that choices exist means there'll always be better ones. I know it's difficult to imagine warrior wizards or skilled fighters, but that, as you might say, is an 'engineering problem' that will have to be resolved by making feats and class features in roughly equal measure favor base combat bonus of the warrior-type or more primary abilities granted by the skilled type.

    Some of that work was already done for me through folding the grapple bonus/combat maneuver defense/bonus into saving throws (specifically reflex saving throws) so a lot of 'combat maneuvers' are now designed in the core rules to force a saving throw against a primary effect on a failed save or a secondary effect on a successful save in addition to the more attack/defense that can be done through melee and ranged attack.
    You can see a lot of this in my last few posts since I posted a bunch of feats I made, though the whole thing was scrapped to be redone after other areas of the rules were more complete.
    A feat like cleave, for example, or grapple, force a reflex save for some lesser effect (for cleave - the damage is based on your normal weapon damage multiplied by the number of attacks you can make on a full round attack action, which is halved on a successful save) works better for warriors (due to a higher save DC) but almost as well as skilled fighters, who would get more of those abilities, allowing for a more versatile fighter.

    But none of this is 'on paper' as I'm just sort of spit-balling my current thoughts on how this'll work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic View Post
    Basically, unless you're incredibly good at creating abilities and unless you limit the stronger "making up for a bad chassis" abilities to Skilled, the idea of Archetypes will, effectively, become a false choice. A Fighter with 10 less AC and a -10 to hit compared to the Fighter next to him isn't really a good Fighter, especially if anything he can take as an ability to make up the difference can be taken by the guy next to him as well.
    Which means that our skilled fighter will have to be able to do things that don't involve hitting and being hit. It won't be easy, but even if my thoughts are largely incomplete in this respect, I'm a little excited at the prospect of being successful in making a skilled fighter that's worth playing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic View Post
    These features are the core of your system, and they have me really worried. I don't think you'll find balance as easy to come by as you think, and the Archetype system really does seem like a false choice for 90% of the things these classes will want to accomplish during gameplay.

    Personally, I think you're off to a rocky start based on these ideas alone. I am, however, very interested in seeing your reaction to this, as well as to seeing how you plan to circumvent these issues.
    I'm not under any illusion that this will be easy. As I said, I'm dreading the point to which I'll have to address multiclassing and the thing is that since I'm making the rules, I *could* just say that you can only multiclass through hybridizing (replacing the secondary abilities of one class with the primary abilities of the other), but frankly, I don't want to be limited in that way if I were to be a player in this game.
    It's things like that why I never took to 4th edition.

    Circumventing these issues isn't going to be solved even when I have the classes and archetypes done. Not even when those and the feats and magic are all done. These changes are so comprehensive, I have only done a copy-paste of maybe one or two short paragraphs and very little of the original material is in the new rules, at least verbatim (though much of the movement and environmental rules have changed very little.)
    I think the only way I'll at least have an idea if it'll all be balanced together with any certainty is when I'm almost done with this "idea draft" but I'd be lying if I said I didn't share your concerns.

    If this helps, in a broad sense, all of the classes are, at least nominally, going to be rejiggered to have a mix of abilities that either favor more primary abilities, more character levels, more base combat bonus, or some combination of these that make the class work either as a combat-class or as a skilled-class as much as they work as average HD. All I can do is put things together one thing at a time.

    However if you want a clearer idea of how class abilities might look like, check out some of my more recent posts where I posted the feats I made.
    Last edited by Neoxenok; 2015-03-23 at 06:08 PM.
    Currently working on Finding the Path in the Forgotten Realms as a massive conversion of the forgotten realms campaign setting (circa 3.5 edition and prior) into pathfinder 1st edition (as I've no interest in 2nd edition).

    Please, if you have an opinion, feel free to meander over to my thread in the link above and post a comment. Thank you.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: A Whole New Era (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Neoxenok View Post
    Warrior hit dice does not grant a +2 bonus to all skills and skill points and skilled hit dice does not grant a -2 to all skills and skill points on the +0/0/0/4+int average.
    What happens is that average HD characters can start with that as the average and choose to gain a -2 to one thing to get a +2 to another, so a character with average hit dice can choose to design a character with a -2 to fort saves to get a +2 to reflex saves or a -2 to reflex saves for a +2 to skill points. You can do this as often as you want as long as you don't go higher than +2 or lower than -2 on any one thing.
    Warrior-types gain a +2 that they can add to any one thing even before choosing to add a -2 somewhere for a +2 somewhere else, so you could pick that +2 to go into for saves and then choose to reduce skills to 2+int (-2 to skills) for another +2 to reflex saves to keep will saves average.
    Skilled HD types get a -2 to one.
    Yeah...that was super unclear. I'd recommend a sentence saying something like "A Warrior may upgrade his Skill Points per Level or a single Save to it's highest value before selecting his Adjustments" and "A Specialist (I like the term better than "Skilled" since it avoids skill point issues) must downgrade his Skill Points per Level or a single Save to it's lowest value before selecting his Adjustments." Then give a section called Adjustments talking about how you may upgrade/downgrade from the average. This way also gets you more flexibility: instead of two above-average and one below average for every Warrior, he can now boost something for free, then downgrade it and boost something else, ending up with all average saves/skill points save for one above-average.

    In addition to what you already know, I've decided to include another difference between the HD types in order to help accentuate more of a ... non-numbers difference.
    Characters with average hit dice gain feats like all characters did in 3.5 edition (at first level and every three levels) and they gain +1 to two different ability scores of their option at 4th level and every four levels thereafter.
    Characters with warrior hit dice gain feats at odd levels like pathfinder and they gain a +1 bonus to three different ability scores of their option at every 4th level.
    Characters with skilled hit dice gain a feat at 1st and every four levels thereafter and +1 to one ability score every 4th.
    Honestly? Needlessly complex, another complication for balance, really feels bad for skilled characters, and just makes me feel even worse about the Archetypes in general. I can't give you exact specifics until I can really see a sample class nailed down (preferably one that's supposed to be balanced across all Archetypes), but this goes against every design sense I have.

    Well, here's the rub - during class design, separating HD as a separate mechanic means you're no longer comparing the fighter to the wizard.
    Now you're comparing the fighter's bonus feats to the wizard's spells, bonus feats, and familiar (in 3.5).
    11 feats versus several dozen spells, including about a half dozen or so 9th level spells, some of which can kill a crowd of people as a standard action if they fail a fortitude saving throw.
    I don't think any really good designers weighed the value of Hit Dice that heavily when determining balance, honestly. The Fighter's HD is, at best, a minor point in his favor against the towering magnitude of the Wizard's options. So…agreed, but I wasn’t ever considering HD as anything but the most minor of balance adjustments.

    The contrast suddenly becomes much more stark when you level the playing field in that manner and not only that, but it gives you a sense of scale. You're not designing the first 10 primary abilities to be as powerful as a 20th level skilled wizard, you're designing the first ten primary abilities to be as powerful as a 10th level wizard's primary abilities.
    I would consider this obvious, yes. But you also have to make sure playing a 20th level Warrior Wizard and a 20th level Skilled Wizard and a 20th level Average Wizard are roughly equal in terms of power: if they're not, then the whole Archetype system is basically just a series of false options, and thus is system bloat.

    To be frank, I figure as long as I don't do worse, I'll come out ahead
    Maybe this is just me, but my philosophy is if I’m setting out to do something, I’m going to put down the best framework to make sure I do it better. Good enough is good enough when creating something entirely new, but when you’re trying to solve the problems of an existing system good enough isn’t good enough, because otherwise people will just default to the familiar old system. So find the potential problem spots in your system now, so you can address them before they cause problems later on.

    One thing I should mention is that some of those numbers actually mean more considering some of my other changes than they did in PF and 3.5.
    I was actually concerned with how strong that numerical difference is, not how weak it is. It means that the abilities your Skilled archetype has to access to make up the difference have to be quite strong in either power, versatility, or both…and that’s the sort of balance nightmare that made 3.5 what it was. Exactly how powerful is turning into a Dragon once a day compared to +10 damage, +10 AC, and +10 to hit 24-hours a day? 50% as strong? 100% as strong? 200% as strong? You can see the issue: non-numerical abilities compared to static bonuses are, effectively, comparing bulldozers to oranges.

    Also, "skilled" as in "more skilled in your chosen profession" so only skilled wizards can get 9th level spells by default - or at least that's the reasoning. I'm not partial to any of these names.
    Perhaps consider “Specialist” or “Expert” as names instead. I’d also recommend renaming “Average” to something like “Adventurer” or “Generalist,” so it sounds more exciting. Being an “Average” character just doesn’t feel fun.

    Well, if I said that it was my intention that every class gets 20 - 40 unique abilities, then, well, I was wrong. Primary/secondary/tertiary abilities are basically just a way of saying that you get X ability if you have Y many primary abilities or secondary yadda yadda yadda.
    Got it.

    This is absolutely my biggest concern in that I don't want to design something more convoluted than what's already there.
    Unfortunately, this system already is much more convoluted. My feat and ability progressions are dependent on my Archetype, as are my class features and when I get those features. Instead of just choosing a class I like I have to choose a class and then figure out which Archetype fits my idea best, which means going through and figuring out when I’d get which abilities that I might have been attracted to. Then I have to figure out whether or not the associated ability score + feat progression allows me to achieve my desired build.

    The fact that choices exist means there'll always be better ones. I know it's difficult to imagine warrior wizards or skilled fighters, but that, as you might say, is an 'engineering problem' that will have to be resolved by making feats and class features in roughly equal measure favor base combat bonus of the warrior-type or more primary abilities granted by the skilled type.
    There will always be more optimal choices, certainly. But you shouldn’t be prepared to ship a system that makes characters of drastically differing power levels just on a single sub-optimal choice that seems like one designed to be viable by the system. D&D 3.5 suffered from that because no one anticipated how people would play casters: we have the benefit of hindsight here. If I can select a Specialist Fighter or a Warrior Fighter in the core system, they should end up approximately equal at as many levels as possible. The entire point of the Archetype system is to ALLOW this sort of flexibility: if it doesn’t create GOOD options then it’s basically unnecessary at best, and a punishment that weeds out inattentive players (or those without the appropriate level of system mastery) at worst.

    But none of this is 'on paper' as I'm just sort of spit-balling my current thoughts on how this'll work.
    Fair enough. I think it’s going to be hard to judge anything in this system without seeing at least one completed class though. There are a bunch of ideas, but not enough mechanics to sink our teeth into.

    --------------


    Some Closing Thoughts...for now
    You definitely have a lot of ideas. The problem is that they're all piecemeal, many of them are intensely interconnected, and there's not enough written down to really see how that inter-connectivity will work. Currently a "selling" point of the system seems to be a lot of available options, but there's a TON of, in my opinion, needless complexity...and all complexity serves both to make the system harder to learn and turn away newer players.

    From what I've seen, I would never want to introduce a player to a system where even envisioning a basic character build is so complicated. And that is, to me, an enormous problem.
    Last edited by Djinn_in_Tonic; 2015-03-24 at 12:29 PM.

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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: A Whole New Era (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic View Post
    Yeah...that was super unclear.
    I definitely like generalist and specialist better than average and skilled so I'll definitely make that alteration.
    I'll add your recommendation to my notes for when I get to that point in the design process, which will likely be within the next week or two depending on how some of my other non-gaming related projects go and how quickly I finish the races that are available in this game but I'll make the relevant posts as I get through those areas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic View Post
    I don't think any really good designers weighed the value of Hit Dice that heavily when determining balance, honestly. The Fighter's HD is, at best, a minor point in his favor against the towering magnitude of the Wizard's options. So…agreed, but I wasn’t ever considering HD as anything but the most minor of balance adjustments.
    I definitely agree here, which is why I wanted to go so far in both powering up hit dice in general and then making the stronger HD set even more starkly powerful than the weaker hit dice. I'm not saying that I've succeeded in making the class features less relevant but part of the problem with 3.5e (and PF to a lesser extent) is how the game designers would promote HD features as being important and powerful on their own and then make them irrelevant through how they designed spells, feats, and monsters to interact in the greater context of the game.

    This is why I felt that if I were going to redesign the game while keeping the spirit of it intact, that it would need to be a nearly completely comprehensive change in design philosophy in order to at least try to reverse this issue. One of my biggest gripes both as DM and player in both 3.5e and pathfinder is monster HD bloat, particularly for undead and fey in 3.5e but this is generally true for both that you'll frequently find creatures with their racial hit dice being as much as 150% to more than twice what the CR is and that makes you either always fail 95% of the time on any contest between the numbers and the only way to defend against those is to cheat - use magic that doesn't use saves, freedom of movement to make yourself immune to grapple, and so on that just contributes to these problems. I'm even one of those individuals that generally thinks that how people here consider the "tier 1" character classes to be the win buttons of D&D to be grossly overexaggerated, but even if it is overexaggerated, that doesn't mean it's not still a problem that increases with severity at higher and higher levels, even without epic levels.

    It's also not just a matter of comparing classes with different HD in terms of power, it's also a major important point for me to consider in the design process that a warrior barbarian isn't going to fufill the same role in the party as the skilled barbarian or if they do, the skilled barbarian will have to have a markedly different method of carrying that function out that makes up for the difference in hit die types.

    The fact of the matter is that I can say whatever here about what the end result of all my ideas will be, but I'd be lying if I thought that I had any certainty of knowing the end result. Even when I'm finished with my current draft, I still essentially plan to go through several (very public) revision drafts that may help to iron out some of the problems you and I see right now because even I'm not 100% sure how I'll resolve some of it. Even when I'm finished, they may even still be problems, but I'm also certain that once I have at least a working 1st version of a rough draft, that it'll be much easier to start revisiting, revising, rewriting, and playtesting something that's written down instead of just stuck in my head.

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic View Post
    I would consider this obvious, yes. But you also have to make sure playing a 20th level Warrior Wizard and a 20th level Skilled Wizard and a 20th level Average Wizard are roughly equal in terms of power: if they're not, then the whole Archetype system is basically just a series of false options, and thus is system bloat.
    You're absolutely right and that won't be a trivial design challenge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic View Post
    Maybe this is just me, but my philosophy is if I’m setting out to do something, I’m going to put down the best framework to make sure I do it better. Good enough is good enough when creating something entirely new, but when you’re trying to solve the problems of an existing system good enough isn’t good enough, because otherwise people will just default to the familiar old system. So find the potential problem spots in your system now, so you can address them before they cause problems later on.
    True, but even if I finish putting my thoughts to paper and having a complete gaming system on my laptop, it still won't be finished. I do plan on going through additional (very public) design phases because given the nature and comprehensiveness of what I'm doing, there'll be a lot that I won't see until I have at least a finished draft. So I consider "good enough" right now to be, well, good enough because I might be able to even turn "that's awful" into a better result once I start the revising process because I might be able to say "well, these class features work as a warrior type, but the specialist type doesn't get enough feats to bring the class out of melee and the class gets weaker supporting feats than this other class does, which can do specialist and warrior better." ... or somesuch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic View Post
    Unfortunately, this system already is much more convoluted. My feat and ability progressions are dependent on my Archetype, as are my class features and when I get those features. Instead of just choosing a class I like I have to choose a class and then figure out which Archetype fits my idea best, which means going through and figuring out when I’d get which abilities that I might have been attracted to. Then I have to figure out whether or not the associated ability score + feat progression allows me to achieve my desired build.
    For DMs, NPC and creature design will just use the generalist HD base for most creatures with warrior and specialist HD creatures being unique cases, like NPC supervillians or other unique creatures to eliminate issues there.

    For players, it will be a bit more complicated and I'll have to present the information in a manner that will hopefully minimize this effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic View Post
    There will always be more optimal choices, certainly. But you shouldn’t be prepared to ship a system that makes characters of drastically differing power levels just on a single sub-optimal choice that seems like one designed to be viable by the system. D&D 3.5 suffered from that because no one anticipated how people would play casters: we have the benefit of hindsight here. If I can select a Specialist Fighter or a Warrior Fighter in the core system, they should end up approximately equal at as many levels as possible. The entire point of the Archetype system is to ALLOW this sort of flexibility: if it doesn’t create GOOD options then it’s basically unnecessary at best, and a punishment that weeds out inattentive players (or those without the appropriate level of system mastery) at worst.
    In terms of power compared to one another, I honestly think that decoupling hit dice has actually freed me to make better design choices in terms of class v class power. Designing them around one type of hit dice or another is important, but secondary and frankly easier than making 11 or even 21 feats be as useful to a party as a tier 1 caster's class features.

    Right now, I think that as long as I do what I can to make sure that classes are roughly equal in terms of power compared to one another on a primary ability to primary ability basis, then all I'll have to do at that point is make sure that the warrior can have half that many primary abilities and still be worth taking. If I can achieve that, then the generalist will be fine as a midway point between the two.

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic View Post
    Fair enough. I think it’s going to be hard to judge anything in this system without seeing at least one completed class though. There are a bunch of ideas, but not enough mechanics to sink our teeth into.
    It might be a week or two, but I'll keep everyone here posted as to my progress. I'm currently going through races and the other early parts of the rules and it won't be long before I get to hit dice and my first class - the barbarian. I believe that this'll be an excellent test of the design process considering that I would actually consider it the most difficult of probably all the classes to fit within this new system. (Warrior-wizards/sorcerers/psions as a concept have been done to death in some form or another.)
    Last edited by Neoxenok; 2015-03-24 at 03:29 PM.
    Currently working on Finding the Path in the Forgotten Realms as a massive conversion of the forgotten realms campaign setting (circa 3.5 edition and prior) into pathfinder 1st edition (as I've no interest in 2nd edition).

    Please, if you have an opinion, feel free to meander over to my thread in the link above and post a comment. Thank you.

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    Default Re: A Whole New Era (PEACH)

    I've completed the seven races available in this game and I'm currently finishing up the smaller details of that chapter (age, height, weight, language, alignment, and so forth) and by the time I'm finished, I'll have officially made up for all the material I lost when my flash drive formatted some time ago and then some, since I worked on other chapters before returning to the ones I lost this time around - nearly 140 pages now, which is more than three times that of what I had before the data was lost.

    After that, I'll begin formatting chapter 4 and once I've finished the section on hit dice (I'm no longer calling them archetypes because I want archetypes to mean the same thing in this game as they do in pathfinder), I'll begin my work on classes, though I may also stop to work on the magic section once I determine how important it is to have that completed before I begin work on classes. At the very least, I'll need to determine how summoning and shapechanging magic works to some extent since that is where a lot of the changes will be compared to 3.5e, which will be important for class features, like wild shape and various companions, mounts, and so forth.

    In the meantime, I've been thinking a lot about the roles of each character class in a party, their roles in the game, and generally what it even means to be a character in that character class. My "hit dice are now their own mechanic" change is a huge one that severely affects this dynamic so I've been thinking a lot about the sorts of roles the classes fill in a broad way and how a combat-oriented version of that class should work vs a non-combat oriented version of that class.

    I may write an essay-length post at some point before I even begin work on classes to collect my thoughts on all this because this will reflect my thoughts on the design process for the new versions of these classes and I'll likely reference it as I work up a first-first draft of the barbarian. What I feel will be important isn't just "how will the specialist barbarian work" so much as that during the design process, I'll need to look at the roles of the classes both as part of a team of players and in a broader sense in contrast to the other available classes.

    In this game that I'm making, hit dice represent a rather fundamental aspect of how a character uses the knowledge and abilities they've gained from their selected character class and this basic thing will need to be reflected in character class design. With this in mind, it's somewhat startling to me just how well some classes can fufill a more combat-oriented role or a less combat-oriented role than others in concept even if not in mechanics. Combat wizards or magical fighters are a dime a dozen in both pathfinder and 3.5e or archetype or prestige class options that can alter this function exist for all the middling-HD classes like the bard, rogue, monk, cleric, and druid and even the paladin can have prestige classes that give them access to more and better magic by sacrificing some of their combat ability or otherwise allow them to fufill other roles different than the simple hitting/get hit grind that fighters and barbarians typically suffer.

    So what I'm getting at is that is that I have to put a lot of thought into what it actually means to be a fighter or a barbarian or a bard or a cleric so the class concept can remain the same between hit dice types and their role in combat and in a party of adventurers and in contrast to the other character class options that will be available before even starting that area.

    Anyway, enough rambling. For the time being, here are the game's races as they are now.
    NOTE: I did not include the benefits/drawbacks of being small or large - they're largely the same as they were in 3.5e and pathfinder and the benefits and drawbacks are mentioned in the book, but it now includes standard size bonuses and penalties to strength and dexterity.
    All small characters receive a +2 size bonus to dexterity and a -2 size penalty to strength. All large characters receive a +2 size bonus to strength and a -2 size penalty to dexterity.

    I decided to mention these adjustments separately in the rules because it's important in consideration to size-altering magic, templates, class features, and that sort of thing.

    Spoiler: Character Races (New)
    Show
    Dwarf
    • Ability Adjustment: +2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity; Dwarves are slow to react but as tough as they are stubburn.
    • Size: Medium.
    • Base Speed: 25 feet.
    • Armor Familiarity: Dwarves wear armor like a second skin. They treat the armor as though it's maximum dexterity bonus is 1 point higher, it's armor check penalty is 1 point less, and armor never reduces a dwarf's combat speed or run speed. Dwarves that do not possess armor proficiency instead gain a +1 dodge bonus to defense until armor proficiency is gained.
    • Darkvision: Dwarves can see in complete darkness though this vision is black and white only. This otherwise functions like normal sight.
    • Dwarven Resiliance: Dwarves gain a +1 species bonus to all reflex saving throws against combat maneuvers and a +1 bonus to all saving throws against all forms of magic.
    • Poison Resistance +2: Dwarves gain a +2 species bonus to all saving throws against poison. In addition, any time a dwarf saves against poison, they suffer no effect on a successful saving throw instead of the secondary effect.
    • Racial Skill Bonuses: Dwarves recieve a +2 species bonus to all appraise, craft, knowledge (history), and knowledge (nobility). Dwarves are talented craftsmen with a strong sense of loyalty to their family, social circles, and elders. Dwarves always treat knowledge (history) and knowledge (nobility) as class skills.
    • Warrior's Skill: Dwarves gain a +1 species bonus to all attack rolls and the saving throw DCs of all combat maneuvers. In addition, they never suffer attack penalties nor do they become flat-footed due to a terrain's physical features, such as a narrow corridor or differences in elevation.
    • Weapon Familiarity: Treat heavy picks, light picks, and warhammers as simple weapons and any exotic weapon with “dwarven” in the name as a martial weapon.



    Elf
    • Ability Adjustment: +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution; Elves are tall and graceful but frail compared to others.
    • Size: Medium.
    • Base Speed: 35 feet.
    • Disease Resistance +2: Elves gain a +2 species bonus to all saving throws against disease. In addition, any time an elf makes a successful a saving throw against disease, they suffer no effect instead of the secondary effect. An elf still suffers the primary effect of the disease on a failed saving throw.
    • Elven Finesse: Elves gain weapon finesse as a bonus feat. In addition to the benefits of that feat, they can treat any two weapons of their choice that they are proficient with as finesse weapons, even if they aren't finesse weapons ordinariliy.
    • Elven Magic: Elves are innately attuned to arcane magic and gain two additinoal spell points if they possess a spell point pool. Elves that cast arcane spells gain a +1 bonus to the saving throw DCs of all arcane spells that they can cast. Elves that can not cast arcane spells can instead gain a +1 bonus to all of their saving throws against spells and spell-like abilities until they gain the ability to cast spells.
    • Elven Reverie: Elves do not sleep and are immune to any effect that forces them to sleep. They do not gain fatigue or exhaustion due to a lack of sleep but a lack of reverie follows the same rules as a lack of sleep (see page XXX) but instead of fortitude saves, you must make will saves and gain enervation instead of fatigue and energy drain instead of exhaustion. Unlike normal enervation and energy drain, enervation and energy drain gained in this manner can only be removed through reverie. Elves can be rendered unconcious normally.
    • Graceful Stride: Elves never leave footprints or physical trails to follow, though they can be tracked through scent or other senses. Elves treat difficult terrain as normal terrain.
    • Low-Light Vision: An elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. They retain the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
    • Racial Skill Bonuses: Elves recieve a +2 species bonus to all knowledge (geography), knowledge (medicine), knowledge (nature), perception, spellcraft, and survival skill checks. Elves are in tune with nature and magic.
    • Weapon Familiarity: Elves treat short swords, long swords, rapiers, longbows, composite longbows, shortbows, and composite shortbows as simple weapons. Elves also treat all exotic weapons with the word “elven” in the name as martial weapons.



    Giant
    • Ability Adjustment: +2 Strength, -2 Charisma; Giants are very physically powerful but rarely assert themselves due to their ponderous and contemplative nature.
    • Size: Large.
    • Base Speed: 35 feet.
    • Environmental Acclimation: Giants can adapt to virtually any environment in 24 hours. After spending 24 or more hours in a natural environment, giants no longer need to make saving throws against ongoing environmental effects and treat the average temperature of that environment as though it were 70 degrees.
    • Emotion Resistance +2: Giants gain a +2 species bonus to all saving throws against spells and spell-like effects of the emotion subschool or subdiscipline. In addition, any time they successfully save against an emotion effect, they take no effect instead of the secondary effect. Giants that fail their saving throws against an emotion effect still suffer the primary effect.
    • Mind and Body: Giants that possess a ki pool gain one bonus ki point. In addition, they treat their wisdom score as being two points higher for the purpose of determining benefits from any class features from the class that grants a ki point pool. Giants that do not possess a ki pool instead gain a +1 bonus to all reflex saving throws until they gain a ki point pool.
    • Powerful Build: Giants possess massive and powerful bodies. All giants possess a +1 natural armor bonus to their defense and gain +1 hit points for every two character levels they possess (minimum +3).
    • Powerful Mind: Giants possess naturally gifted minds and naturally take to the discipline of psionics, gaining two additional psionic power points if they possess a psionic power point pool. Giants that have psionic powers gain a +1 bonus to the saving throw DCs of their psionic powers. Giants that do not possess psionic powers or a psionic power point pool instead gain a +1 bonus to their will saving throws until they gain a psionic power point pool or psionic powers.
    • Racial Skill Bonuses: Giants gain a +2 species bonus to all autohypnosis, endurance, and knowledge checks. Giants are in tune with their bodies and minds and greatly value knowledge. Giants treat all knowledge skills as class skills.
    • Weapon Familiarity: Giants treat all exotic weapons with the word “Giant” in the name as martial weapons.



    Gnome
    • Ability Adjustment: +2 Intelligence, -2 Wisdom; Gnomes are fiercely intelligent but tend to be emotional and quick to judge.
    • Size: Small.
    • Base Speed: 20 feet.
    • Animalspeak (Su): Gnomes are able to naturally speak with burrowing animals. When they speak in this manner, they speak similarly to the burrowing animal they are communicating with.
    • Creative Spirit: Gnomes that have a creativity pool gain two additional creativity points. Any expendature of creativity points on spells of the illusion school is reduced by one point to a minimum of one ponit. Gnomes without a creativity pool or illusion spells instead gain a first level illusion spell usable as a spell-like ability in addition to the others gained through gnomish magic (see below) until they gain access to a creativity pool.
    • Gnomish Magic: Gnomes are inherantly magical and gain the use of two zero level illusion spells and one first level illusion spell as spell-like abilities, selectable from any spell list. The zero level spell-like abilities are usable at will and the gnome invariably gains a magic point pool with a number magic points equal to half the gnome's hit dice plus their charisma modifier. The saving throw DCs of these spell-like abilities are charisma-based.
    • Illusion Resistance +2: Gnomes gain a +2 species bonus to will saving throws against illusion magic. Any time a gnome successfully saves against an illusion, the gnome suffers no effect. Gnomes that fail a will save against an illusion still suffer the primary effect.
    • Magical Sight (Su): Gnomes can see the faint glow of magic, producing a faint glow. Magic without an otherwise visible effect has a perception DC of 15 -1 per spell level of the spell +5 per hour after the effect was terminated if the magic is no longer active to a maximum of 24 hours per spell level of the spell, after which any lingering aura disappears.
    • Racial Skill Bonuses: Gnomes gain a +2 species bonus to all disable device, knowledge (engineering), knowledge (humanities), linguistics, perform, and use magic device skill checks. Gnomes are creative and adept with complex ideas, magic, and machinery.
    • Weapon Familiarity: Gnomes treat all exotic weapons with the word “gnomish” in the name as a martial weapon.



    Halfling
    • Ability Adjustment: +2 Wisdom, -2 Intelligence; Halflings are highly inclined to a very down-to-earth temperment with a strong will and an awareness of the world around them that is possessed by few others.
    • Size: Small.
    • Base Speed: 25 feet.
    • Crack Shot: Halflings gain a +1 species bonus to attack rolls and deal an additional 2 points of precision damage with any sling or thrown weapon. This precision damage increases by 1 point when the halfling has a base combat bonus of +9 and again every four points the halfling gains beyond that to a maximum of +5 when the halfling has a base combat bonus of +17.
    • Fearless: Halflings are undaunted by any attempt by others to intimidate them. Foes never gain a bonus to their intimidate skill checks against a halfling due to their size and the intimidate DC of any halfling is improved by 5.
    • Halfling's Miraculous Luck: Halflings that possess a mana point pool gain an additional 2 mana points. In addition, any time a halfling is forced to make a saving throw, they can expend a mana point to gain a +1d6 luck bonus to that saving throw. This saving throw does not fail on a natural one. Halflings that do not possess a mana point pool instead gain a +1 luck bonus to all saving throws until the halfling gains a mana pool.
    • Helpful: Halflings can apply the benefit of aid another to one adjacent ally (see page XXX and XXX) without expending an action to do so. Halflings that do expend the effort (a whole-turn action that provokes an attack of opportunity), then the benefit is doubled.
    • Mind-Affecting Magic Resistance +2: Halflings gain a +2 species bonus to will saving throws against any form of mind-affecting magic. If the halfling successfully saves against mind-affecting magic, the halfling suffers no effect instead of the secondary effect. Halflings that fail their save against a mind-affecting magical effect still suffer the primary effect of the magic.
    • Racial Skill Bonuses: Halflings gain a +2 species bonus to all acrobatics, climb, investigate, heal, knowledge (local), knowledge (religion), linguistics, sleight of hand, stealth, and swim skill checks. Halflings are social creatures and athletically inclined. Halflings always treat investigate and knowledge (local) as class skills.
    • Weapon Familiarity: Halflings treat slings as general weapons instead of simple weapons and any exotic weapon with the word “halfling” in the name as martial weapons.



    Human
    • Ability Adjustment: None.
    • Size: Medium.
    • Base Speed: 30 feet.
    • Bonus Feat: Humans recieve an additional feat at 1st level and again at 11th level. They can select any feat to which they meet the prerequisites.
    • Skilled: Humans recieve one additional skill point for every hit dice they possess.
    • Versatile: Humans can select any two skills they don't already have as class skills and gain them as class skills. Once this choice is made at character creation, it can not be changed.
    • Weapon Familiarity: Humans can treat any two simple weapons as basic weapons or any two martial weapons as simple weapons or any two exotic weapons as martial weapons or any combination of those, selected at character creation or the purpose of determining proficiency.




    Orc
    • Ability Adjustment: +2 Charisma, -2 Wisdom. Orcs have a powerful and often intimidating presence and have a great deal of passion amplified through their highly emotional temperment.
    • Size: Large.
    • Base Speed: 40 feet.
    • Death Resistance +2: Orcs gain a +2 species bonus to all saving throws against spells and spell-like effects with the death subschool or subdiscipline. Orcs that successfully save against a death spell save for no effect instead of the secondary effect. Orcs that fail their save still suffer the primary effect of the death spell.
    • Orc Ferocity: Orcs gain a +2 bonus to all saving throws instigated by the death, dying, stable, and unconciousness conditions. An orc's constitution is considered 2 points higher for the purpose of determining how much non-lethal damage an orc needs to take before being forced to make a saving throw against unconciousness.
    • Quick Recovery: Orcs recover from damage and injury fairly swiftly compared to others. Through natural recovery, orcs recover twice as many hit points and points of ability damage. When orcs complete a day of complete bedrest, they can recover one point of ability drain per each ability score. Any time an orc is affected by magic that heals hit points, orcs recover a number of bonus hit points equal to their charisma modifier.
    • Passionate Devotion: When an orc believes something, they believe it fully, completely, and with absolute fervor. Orcs with a mana point pool gain two additional mana points. Any divine spell they cast gains a +1 bonus to its saving throw DC. Orcs that do not possess a mana point pool gain a +2 bonus to damage with all melee attacks until they gain a mana point pool.
    • Racial Skill Bonuses: Orcs gain a +2 species bonus to all handle animal, intimidate, ride, and sense motive skill checks. Orcs are naturals with raising and handling animals and they are naturally able to discover and invoke fear in others.
    • Scent: Orcs have a powerful sense of smell and treat their sense of smell as a secondary sense (see page XXX).
    • Weapon Familiarity: Orcs treat shortspears and longspears as basic weapons, handaxes, battleaxes, and greataxes as simple weapons, and all exotic weapons with the word “orc” in its name as martial weapons.

    Currently working on Finding the Path in the Forgotten Realms as a massive conversion of the forgotten realms campaign setting (circa 3.5 edition and prior) into pathfinder 1st edition (as I've no interest in 2nd edition).

    Please, if you have an opinion, feel free to meander over to my thread in the link above and post a comment. Thank you.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: A Whole New Era (PEACH)

    there is a ton of stuff in here and lots of the writter's abittions of how the game should/would work in the end of the brainstorming intertwined with game mechanics and answers on answers, it really makes it difficult for someone new to the topic like me to begin with it, especially since there have been some extensive updates to the original post. Could you possibly add a word/pdf link where one could find what is very roughly a good concrete draft of your ideas till now?
    if there isnt any its ok i will eventually get around them all and give a more meaningful comment later on cause i really like some ideas from the 1st post!
    Last edited by Pakis54; 2015-03-26 at 07:35 PM.

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    Default Re: A Whole New Era (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pakis54 View Post
    there is a ton of stuff in here and lots of the writter's abittions of how the game should/would work in the end of the brainstorming intertwined with game mechanics and answers on answers, it really makes it difficult for someone new to the topic like me to begin with it, especially since there have been some extensive updates to the original post. Could you possibly add a word/pdf link where one could find what is very roughly a good concrete draft of your ideas till now?
    if there isnt any its ok i will eventually get around them all and give a more meaningful comment later on cause i really like some ideas from the 1st post!
    I'm still working on that pdf/word document as we speak so I don't have any complete anythings to put out right now.
    This thread largely exists for me to vent, post information about what I'm doing with this project, what I want to do with it, and basically use it as a sounding board for my ideas to vet my design decisions while I work through this draft of the project. Since I'm finishing up the races section and heading on toward classes and hit dice, this will become especially important.
    I estimate that I'm about 1/4th to 1/3rd done or so, perhaps less considering the volume of feats, spells, equipment, and magic items I'll have to eventually go through so what is concrete are the core rules on environment, conditions, combat, a few other basic aspects of the game.

    One thing, for example, that I've changed without really talking about right now is what I've done with how the senses work in that I've rolled all "senses" mechanics into perception, so "darkvision 60ft" is no longer a thing. You either have darkvision or you don't and what determines if you see something with is determined by your wisdom check or perception check result. That means that if you put skill ranks in perception, your scent, echolocation, darkvision, or whatever else you have is similarly improved and all of these things follow the same rules.

    I look forward to seeing your thoughts.
    Currently working on Finding the Path in the Forgotten Realms as a massive conversion of the forgotten realms campaign setting (circa 3.5 edition and prior) into pathfinder 1st edition (as I've no interest in 2nd edition).

    Please, if you have an opinion, feel free to meander over to my thread in the link above and post a comment. Thank you.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: A Whole New Era (PEACH)

    so my thoughts...i have read till a certain point...i would like to point out that i am also (trying to) doing a system of my own and i find we have some similar ideas on some topics so i will write down on what i (dis)-agree and how i have done it!

    i totally agree that you shouldnt remove versatility from mages and that the power of some spells is the main problem and what should be addressed!
    and i agree again about AC and how it should progress somehow depending on your class and your level and maybe from your race for monsters but not pcs!

    "Epic Levels and Deities and Demigods" do you really have to do that? epic levels are like broken beyond broken in the original state of the game! shouldnt you focus on whats more realistically playable right now and once you have finished like 90% of the game you can do that?! same goes for psionics for me but thats personal taste!

    magic items, personally i am of the opinion that items that grant you bonuses to your main ability scores shouldnt even exist!
    In my setting i justify this by saying "the gods wish to show mortals that life is a hardship and you should strive on your own about improving it blaaa blaaa" in game mechanics,2 reasons:
    a) an item that gives bonus to an ability score is a bit like metagming imo
    b) the effect those bonuses have look at it this way,the effect on the char sheet is immense! a +2 to str goes to attacks,damage,so many skills and carrying capacity! its effect is huge! you can have so many different items to boost specific aspects but your mains shouldnt be able to change with magic items! (but i have no problem doing that with lvling)

    spells: all and each one of them needs to be studied once again and changed and placed in the right spell level.

    races: in my campaign, like in normal dnd, dwarves and elves once ruled the world. humans are the newcomers!but orcs are the rulers of the world! (Midnight campaign setting pretty much-what if sauron had won)
    so since this was the idea...i was like "what made elves and dwarves the rulers of the world some hundread of years back and now what has changed?" so i decided that older races should get some really good bonuses and abilites according to their theme.
    Like a dwarf would no matter what class be good at a stone-themed ability and weaponsmithing
    while elves were always better with magic than all other races!
    humans should be the most adaptable of all races while orcs the brutes!

    classes: the biggest overhaul should go into classes...pretty much no class should stay as it is now and especially the fighter who pretty much doesnt exist anymore but he has become like you have suggested here an archetype! in dnd 2.0 there was the fighing-man, thats the name of my archetype for all sub-fighter classes later on which like you have done they all share some very common traits like HD and BAB! (dont know if we both saw this from somewhere or it just so happened we both had the same idea)
    the bard is a prestige and the monk doesnt exist in my campaign!the only monk i know is this guy
    chinesse,japanesse and other cr..p dont belong in my campaign! thats personal taste again!

    multiclassing should come later on after having made some good drafts of at least a few classes. and its tough!

    feats: i dont know how you have made feats since you have not made classes yet! cause the numbers behind feats should come in some agreement with the numbers you are gonna put from the classes and depending on how powerful all classes in the end are going to be there is going to be some connection with your feats i believe!

    skills: classes like the ranger and rogue who are preety much skillmonkeys should be made 1st again i believe then after you have found a basic theme for them, you should make skills, which should all be of some importantce in the game...not like now!
    also DCs need overhaul cause after 8th level there is no need to put ranks almost anywhere!
    about a skill specifically Diplomacy have you read this?

    magic items: i like the idea of minor,Moderate,Major etc...i think i will surely steal that from you!

    spellcasting: its one of the most major overhauls in the game and personally i really love this idea, even though i have not playtested it yet and i dont know if it needs any tweaking for my taste, the idea behind it,is exactly what i wanted from spellcasting! but even if it needs some tweaking the guy has done an amazing job!

    i am not sure i contributed a lot but its still better than "hey do you have a pdf for that?"

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    Default Re: A Whole New Era (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pakis54 View Post
    so my thoughts...i have read till a certain point...i would like to point out that i am also (trying to) doing a system of my own and i find we have some similar ideas on some topics so i will write down on what i (dis)-agree and how i have done it!
    No worries. Most of the more important information is right up there in the first posts. I've been very mindful of the more public 3.5e fixes on these boards, as well as a few that came before it, notably this, this, this, this (for obvious reasons), this, this (which will be a primary influence an important side project to this one), this, and several more that I saved offline for reference purposes that I can't currently find the links to and several threads that address specific d20/pathfinder/3.5e problems without necessarily addressing the whole system - especially classes, feats, and spells.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pakis54 View Post
    "Epic Levels and Deities and Demigods" do you really have to do that? epic levels are like broken beyond broken in the original state of the game! shouldnt you focus on whats more realistically playable right now and once you have finished like 90% of the game you can do that?! same goes for psionics for me but thats personal taste!
    I have a lot of personal experience with epic levels from both the DM's and player's perspective and it's ... well, it's not as bad as you'd think. It definitely is broken in many ways but a lot of it is just the same problems as pre-epic levels but compounded due to being higher level and I think I might have some solutions for it that, even if it doesn't fix the problem 100% I'm hoping will at least make it much more workable.

    It doesn't matter either way given that my current workup won't include epic levels, but a lot of what was in the epic level handbook's SRD stuff WILL be in this project - particularly virtually a converted variation of most epic feats and a lot of the rules and gameplay options in pre-epic will be designed around the fact that epic level play will be "in mind" so that if and when I do get around to doing my own version of the epic level handbook, the progression from 20 to 21+ will be much more natural than it was for 3.5 edition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pakis54 View Post
    magic items, personally i am of the opinion that items that grant you bonuses to your main ability scores shouldnt even exist!
    For a long time I had been trying to decide whether or not I should include such items in the game or not as well, but I ultimately did decide to include them given that many actual fantasy, science fiction, and superhero stories are rife with such items. Plus, it just honestly doesn't bother me that much.
    To me, more people here seem to worry about the "christmas tree' effect of players decking out their characters with as many magic items as they can carry. So my contribution to this problem will be to reduce the number of magic item slots and make the costs of more powerful magic items much more ... inflationary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pakis54 View Post
    feats: i dont know how you have made feats since you have not made classes yet!
    I already attempted a pass at feats, but it's difficult to design feats when you don't have classes or magic worked out yet, so even though I had worked through 3/4s of all the feats in the SRD, I had to scrap that so I could come back and deal with it later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pakis54 View Post
    about a skill specifically Diplomacy have you read this?
    My version of diplomacy was based more off of Justin Alexander's, which itself was based off of Rich's fix.

    This is my version of diplomacy: (be warned: The tables did NOT copy/paste well at all)

    Spoiler: Diplomacy Skill
    Show
    Diplomacy (Cha)
    You know how to talk to people and negociate with them to agree with you or another. This involves mastery of the art of persuasion and the ability to master communication and understanding with others. This not only involves understanding of others but understanding in communication and etiquette. You can use it to convince the local militia to treat the orc nusence as a greater threat, an enemy spy to turn on his employer, or you can convince a captured enemy that you and he can become allies.
    Check: The diplomacy skill has several functions that involve convincing, persuading, and influencing attitudes. Convincing someone involves making someone of the truth of something that they believe in (convincing someone of a lie requires use of the bluff skill, page XXX). For example, you might convince the local barony to pay special attention to a local thieves' guild or an indignant guard that you are in fact the new Lord as appointed by the royal family. The base DC of any convince check is based on the target's current disposition toward you and the relationship modifier and any other pertinent modifiers to this base DC. The base DC to convince is listed on table 6-24, the long term relationship modifiers is listed on table 6-25, and other pertinent modifiers are listed on table 6-26. Apply all applicable modifiers. A successful convince check allows the target to accept a fact as true. A failed convince check leaves the target doubting your words and affecting the level of trust the target has with you. A convince check that fails by 5 or more results in the target becoming intransigent and will refuse any attempts at diplomacy until time, circumstances, or something else dicatate otherwise.) A convince check that fails by 10 or more results in complete diplomatic failure and no additional checks will be possible until time, circumstances, or something else dictates otherwise in addition to possibly affecting the NPC's attitude toward you.

    Table 6-24: Base Convince DC
    Attitude
    Means
    Possible Actions
    Base Convince DC
    Hostile
    Will take risks to hurt you
    Attack, interfere, berate, flee
    25
    Unfriendly
    Wishes you ill
    Mislead, gossip, avoid, insult
    20
    Indifferent
    No stake in your well-being
    Socially expected interaction
    15
    Friendly
    Wishes you well
    Chat, advise, offer help, advocate
    10
    Helpful
    Will take risks to help you
    Protect, back up, aid, heal
    5
    Fantatic
    Will give life to serve you
    Will give anything to help you
    0

    Table 6-25: Diplomacy Relationship Modifier
    Relationship
    Example
    DC Modifier
    Nemesis
    Someone that has a lifelong grudge against you
    +15
    Personal Foe
    Someone with whom is regularly antagonistic toward you
    +10
    Enemy
    Someone on an opposed team with no personal feelings
    +5
    Acquaintance (Negative)
    Someone you've seen regularly with no positive experience
    +2
    Just met
    Someone with whom you have no relationship whatsoever
    +0
    Acquaintance (Positive)
    Someone you've seen regularly with no negative experience
    -2
    Ally
    Someone on the same team with no personal feelings
    -5
    Friend
    Someone with whom is regularly positive toward you
    -10
    Intimate
    Someone with whom has implicit trust with you
    -15

    Table 6-26: Diplomacy Modifiers
    Difficulty
    Definition
    Example
    DC Modifier
    Target is argumentative
    Target wittingly or unwittingly is argumentative with you
    Ol' Pete will argue and argue just to prove a point.
    + Target's charisma modifier
    Target is intransigent
    Target has no desire to discuss matters with you
    The bandit leader killed the last negotiator and is ready to attack.
    + half target's hit dice + target's wisdom modifier
    Target is amongst peers
    Target is amongst like-minded peers that naturally reinforce one another's position
    Biff and his cronies regularly antagonize the townsfolk.
    +1 per peer (maximum +10) + target's charisma modifier
    You are amongst peers
    You are among like-minded peers that reinforce your desires
    You and your pals “negociated” with a local boy to never come to your favorite drinking establishment.
    -1 per ally (maximum -10)
    Allies must have at least one rank in diplomacy to grant this benefit.
    Culture difference
    You and target do not share cultures
    Jermoden has very different customs and he accidently offends people without realizing.
    +2
    No shared language
    You and target do not share a language
    You are left in a foreign land and must communicate without talking.
    +5
    Environmental Dissonance
    You and target are from wildly different natural environments
    William and Aliaa the mermaid find out that a relationship is impossible.
    +7
    Different modes of communication
    You and target do not communicate in the same manner
    Lithlic the sentient plant finds difficulty communicating with humans by pheramones.
    +10
    Target from another reality
    You and target are not from the same reality
    Yaamin the djinn doesn't understand mortality or time.
    +15
    Different understanding of reality
    Even if you and target are from the same reality, your understanding of it is different
    The unnamed horror finds human senses severely limiting, like being blind and deaf.
    +20
    Quick diplomacy
    You must cut a deal in very few words
    Umari stops the generations of fighting with just four words.
    +10

    Using diplomacy to persuade allows for an open dialog between yourself and at least one other party to agree to a deal, a compromise, a trade, physical goods, acceptance of a new religion, a promise, or a virtually unlimited variety of things. The base DC and modifiers is the same as an attempt to convince, but a new set of modifiers apply in regard to the risk versus reward judgement toward what the target is being persuaded to accept, examplified by tables 6-28 and 6-29 in addition to the modifiers of table 6-25 and 6-26. The base DCs to persuade a target are listed on table 6-27 and are based on the target's current attitude toward you. A successful diplomacy check to persuade results in a bargain that requires no adjustements or changes. A failed diplomacy check to persuade means that the target does not accept the deal but may be open to renegociation or a counteroffer with a deal that is more to their favor on the risk vs reward judgement or another as the circumstances dictate. A failed diplomacy check to persuade by 5 or more results in a shut down of negociations and the deal is not accepted and the target will not entertain any further deals (the target becomes intransigent). A failure by 10 or more is similar to a result of 5 or more except that the deal ended so badly that the target's attitude shifts to become more hostile (as the circumstance dictates) and even the relationship modifier may alter as per the GM's discretion. Do not apply the “target is argumentative” modifier to the base persuasion DCs, as the back-and-forth nature of negociation and persuasion is intrinsically argumentative.

    Table 6-27: Base Persuasion DCs
    Attitude
    Means
    Possible Actions
    Base Persuasion DC
    Hostile
    Will take risks to hurt you
    Attack, interfere, berate, flee
    30 + Target's Charisma Modifier
    Unfriendly
    Wishes you ill
    Mislead, gossip, avoid, insult
    20 + Target's Charisma Modifier
    Indifferent
    No stake in your well-being
    Socially expected interaction
    15 + Target's Charisma Modifier
    Friendly
    Wishes you well
    Chat, advise, offer help, advocate
    10 + Target's Charisma Modifier
    Helpful
    Will take risks to help you
    Protect, back up, aid, heal
    0 + Target's Charisma Modifier
    Fantatic
    Will give life to serve you
    Will give anything to help you
    -15 + Target's Charisma Modifier

    Table 6-28: Risk versus Reward Judgement
    Judgement
    Example
    DC Modifier
    Horrible
    There is no possible positive outcome for the target.
    +15
    Bad
    The reward is poor and the risk is very high.
    +10
    Unfavorable
    The risk outweighs the reward but it's still a gamble.
    +5
    Even
    The cost/benefit ratio is a roughly even gamble.
    +0
    Favorable
    The reward is appealing despite the risk.
    -5
    Good
    The reward is exceptional and the risk is acceptable.
    -10
    Fantastic
    There is no possible negative outcome for the target
    -15

    The last major function of diplomacy is to affect the attitudes of others around you. A successful diplomacy check to affect the attitude of another allows them to become as much as one step friendlier with you. A failed diplomacy check just means that the target does not change his disposition toward you. A failure of 5 or more is a more disasterous result and the target becomes offended and becomes one step away from friendly, possibly becoming unfriendly or even hostile. A failure of 15 or more results in the target becoming immediately hostile and possibly affecting the overall relationship modifier between your character and the target (per GM discretion.) The base DC of any diplomacy check to influence a target's attitude is based upon the target's perception of you and your ability to affect that perception. You must make a diplomacy check against the target's modified sense motive check. The target's sense motive check is modified by the relationship modifiers on table 6-25, the risk versus reward judgement on table 6-28, and all applicable modifiers on table 6-26 except the “target is intransigent” and “target is argumentative” modifiers. The target also recieves modifiers based on their current attitude toward you on table 6-29.

    Table 6-29: Current Attitude Modifiers
    Attitude
    Means
    Possible Actions
    Sense Motive Modifier
    Hostile
    Will take risks to hurt you
    Attack, interfere, berate, flee
    +20
    Unfriendly
    Wishes you ill
    Mislead, gossip, avoid, insult
    +15
    Indifferent
    No stake in your well-being
    Socially expected interaction
    +15
    Friendly
    Wishes you well
    Chat, advise, offer help, advocate
    +20
    Helpful
    Will take risks to help you
    Protect, back up, aid, heal
    +50

    A character's general attitude (unlike the relationship modifier) is transitive and can vary with any particular situation. A character's attitude will be reflective of their relationship modifier, but situations can call for the two to be different. A character made helpful or fanatical won't always stay with that attitude and the length of time to climb from hostile to unfriendly to higher levels of friendliness has no set timeframe and has too many variables for any rules to account for. Unless an NPC has an ongoing relationship with a PC, an NPC's general attitude will generally be based upon their current mood and the NPC's most recent interactions with your character according to the situation. Most of these variables are under the GM's perview.
    Action: A diplomacy check represents a reparte that can last a few tense seconds or continued talks over months and years. At minimum, a diplomacy check requires 1d4 minutes. A quick diplomacy check (see table 6-26) requires a standard action.
    Try Again: Trying again depends entirely on the circumstances, though a failure by a large enough margin often shuts down any further attempts at diplomacy. NPCs open to speak again may gain a +2 circumstance modifier to any repeated attempts at diplomacy assuming there are no other modifiers that have shifted due to the failed diplomacy. attempt.
    Synergy: If you possess the skill focus (diplomacy) feat, you can sell items that you normally sell at half price or less at an increased percentage valuation based on your ranks in diplomacy. For every rank you have in diplomacy, you can sell an item at an additional 1% value so a character with 5 ranks can sell an item that would normally sell for 50% value or less at 55% or other value +5%. You do not gain this benefit for items that sell above 50% of the market value.
    Characters can negate one point of a communication diplomacy modifier of any kind by one point per rank in knowledge (medicine), linguistics, and sense motive and point of the bonus granted by skill focus (knowledge (medicine)), skill focus (linguistics), and skill focus (sense motive), except quick diplomacy, the like-minded peer modifiers, or the modifiers for being argumentative or intransigent per table 6-26 to a minimum total modifier of +0.
    Restriction: This skill is ineffective against creatures with an intelligence score of 2 or 1. All indicated skill DCs increase by 10 against creatures of intelligence 3 and 5 against creatures of intelligence 4 and 5.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pakis54 View Post
    spellcasting: its one of the most major overhauls in the game and personally i really love this idea, even though i have not playtested it yet and i dont know if it needs any tweaking for my taste, the idea behind it,is exactly what i wanted from spellcasting! but even if it needs some tweaking the guy has done an amazing job!

    i am not sure i contributed a lot but its still better than "hey do you have a pdf for that?"
    There's a lot of good ideas in the 3.5e overhaul thread (and I have it linked for the occasional reference for that reason) but just like with the spell reformation, I don't agree with many of their ideas and I generally want to go in a different direction, but for what they did, it's definitely worth a read and there a lot of excellent ideas with both threads.
    Last edited by Neoxenok; 2015-03-28 at 03:06 AM.
    Currently working on Finding the Path in the Forgotten Realms as a massive conversion of the forgotten realms campaign setting (circa 3.5 edition and prior) into pathfinder 1st edition (as I've no interest in 2nd edition).

    Please, if you have an opinion, feel free to meander over to my thread in the link above and post a comment. Thank you.

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Pixie in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: A Whole New Era (PEACH)

    damn i didnt know Legend was "popular"! i liked their intro and like you they are doing the primary,secondary,tertiary abilities
    but eveything else didnt seem such big of an overhaul to me except for the spell casting levels which instead of 9 lvls they are 7 now which is something i was thinking of changing too!
    thx for some links hadnt seen them!

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: A Whole New Era (PEACH)

    Okay, so I've completed chapter 3, which include the seven races, starting ages/heights/weights and the random charts for those, alignment, and all the language information.
    Aside from the examples I've already posted (which I've since modified slightly), I've tweaked the ages/heights/weights of most of the races. Alignments are significantly less defined and specific in order to accommodate a much wider range of what characters of those alignments can and can't be without necessarily straightjacketing them.

    Spoiler: Alignments
    Show
    Alignment
    A character's alignment represents a very broad generalization of a character's moral and ethical mentality. Moral characters can be good, neutral, or evil and ethical characters can be lawful, chaotic, or neutral in these two areas, leading to having nine separate alignments, including chaotic evil, chaotic good, chaotic neutral, lawful evil, lawful good, lawful neutral, neutral evil, neutral good, and true neutral. A character's moral stance largely reflects their view of the well-being of others and their inherent altruism. A character's ethical stance reflects a character's selfishness and respect for authority.

    Chaotic Evil
    Characters of this alignment are driven to do what they want and how they want to do it with little to no regard to how the consequences of their actions affect others. Some chaotic evil characters may even be outwardly malicious and seek to purposefully do harm to others but most are selfish and lack respect for the well being of others. The result is a character that does what they want despite the consequences to others.

    Chaotic Good
    Characters of this alignment are driven to be self-motivated and benefit themselves in a way that helps themselves and can help others in the process. Chaotic good characters can be motivated by the wants and needs of others, but generally see self-improvement as a way to set an example and benefit those close to them in the process. They are generally free spirited individualists that want to be a positive influence on others.

    Chaotic Neutral
    Characters of this alignment are deterministic individualists first and last. Chaotic neutral characters generally respect the boundaries of others but tend to act with neither altruism nor malevolence unless it is in their more selfish interests. They generally just care to look out for themselves.

    Lawful Evil
    Characters of this alignment are selfless and group-oriented but lack respect for any individual. Lawful evil characters tend toward authoritarianism in how they address others and expect to be addressed and that group is often pushed toward malevolent actions toward others. They generally prefer to have the order and protection of a group larger than themselves regardless of who they or their group steps on.

    Lawful Neutral
    Characters of this alignment value order and tend to think in group-oriented terms. Lawful neutral characters respect the roles that others play but not necessarily to their benefit. They generally prefer to have and give the benefit of order and harmony.

    Lawful Good
    Characters of this alignment value others more than they value themselves. Lawful good characters tend toward selflessness and a healthy respect for how others are treated. They generally want what's best for everyone without necessarily trouncing the freedom and respect of others.

    Neutral Evil
    Characters of this alignment value the power they have over others, whether that power comes from themselves or from a part of the group they belong to. Neutral evil characters tend toward malicious actions toward those around them in whatever they do. They generally either want power at all costs or just work to exert power on others in a negative and harmful way.

    Neutral Good
    Characters of this alignment value the power of others, whether it comes from their individual accomplishments or the group in which they are involved. Neutral good characters tend simply to seek to make the world a better place for themselves as much as others. They generally want to empower themselves and those around them to be a positive influence in the world.

    True Neutral/Unaligned
    Characters of this alignment tend to value the power of objective or logical reason and generally won't hold any one or group of individuals above the other in regard to meeting their goals. They generally just do whatever seems like a good idea for themselves, others, or both in general but do so in a goal-oriented manner instead of a manner that necessarily benefits or harms others, though most will prefer to meet their goals in a way that is helpful one way or another but that isn't always the case. They generally just want to do accomplish a goal that is important to them or others or just live out their lives without making waves. Most non-player characters will fall under this alignment.


    Characater ages have also been tweaked and there is a whole section on the effects of starting as a non-standard age, including starting as a child, young adult, middle age, old, or venerable character. The effects of old age is no longer a simple penalty to the physical stats and, perplexingly, a bonus to a character's mental stats. Instead, you gain a bonus feat for each age category above adulthood you are and you roll on a d20 chart to gain one or more penalties brought about by a character's advanced age.

    This section now includes the language information that would normally be squirrelled away under the speak language or linguistics skill is now in the same section you use to select your starting languages (though now that I think about it, I should at least include a list of those languages under the linguistics skill, even if it doesn't have the same level of detail.)

    I'm now completely free to work on the classes section later this week and, when I have the time, I'm going to spitball my ideas in regard to how the classes are balanced, should be balanced, and their roles in 3.5e versus what'll have to change in this version of the game both in general with all of the available classes and specifically in regard with the barbarian since that'll be my first target right after I finish entering the information about a character's hit dice.

    Completing chapter three is an important milestone because I've now essentially recovered and remade all the information I had lost when my flash drive formatted last year in addition to actually being more progressed due to starting at a different point and then going back to rewrite what I had lost. Everything I do from this point is moving forward with this project instead of rebuilding what I had lost. The file I'm writing all this on is now 140 pages long with over 108 thousand characters long and I still have classes, feats, spells, equipment, and magic items to work on. I'm anticipating the final result to be about as long as the pathfinder core rulebook, all things considered.
    Last edited by Neoxenok; 2015-03-31 at 01:57 PM.
    Currently working on Finding the Path in the Forgotten Realms as a massive conversion of the forgotten realms campaign setting (circa 3.5 edition and prior) into pathfinder 1st edition (as I've no interest in 2nd edition).

    Please, if you have an opinion, feel free to meander over to my thread in the link above and post a comment. Thank you.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: A Whole New Era (PEACH)

    Perhaps this is already covered, but why round down? Giving players the benefit of the 'doubt' or roll or ability doesn't vastly overpower them, yet still ever so slightly tilts the odds in favor of the heros.


    NB: gratz on the rewrite progress.
    Last edited by aspekt; 2015-03-31 at 03:06 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Forth Attempt at a Bloody Post!

    I know I said I'd be ready by a week, but other issues and a computer crash in the middle of writing a post all conspired to delay my progress.

    Right now, I'm fully ready to begin work on the barbarian, having completed everything else I was working on up to that point but right now, I want to pontificate on a few points regarding the classes in general and then the barbarian in particular.

    The Character Classes of 3.5 Edition D&D and How They'll Need to Change

    The classes in 3.5 edition are problematic, everyone knows, but when I decided to start looking at them from the perspective of the changes I want to implement, another noticeable problem arose. You see, everyone (on these boards at least) is at least passingly aware of the "tier" system based on a combination of several different criteria but I've come across another curiosity.

    I've been thinking a lot about how each class is actually defined in the sense of what makes a barbarian a barbarian or a sorcerer a sorcerer or a monk a monk and so forth. The core themes of all of the classes is something I'll have to know in fairly intimate detail if I intend to understand how to recreate them in my game to adapt to the new system.

    For example, if the barbarian is essentially defined as a rage-a-holic warrior, then how does a barbarian with wizard hit dice work? If the barbarian can't be a front-line warrior, then what is the barbarian going to do that's going to be useful in the party. I've been primarily looking at the barbarian since it's the first of the 11 classes to be remade, but this holds true for a few of the other classes as well.

    In short, I basically realize that the only way I'll be able to bring the classes into the new game is to broaden each class' definition to include a variety of barbarian-esque archetypes that may include entirely new ... concepts of what a barbarian actually is.

    Then there's the "tier problem."

    The issues with class balance become stark when you look at each of the classes on an ability-ability basis. Given that 'combatant' hit die type classes, such as the fighter, only have half the abilities as 'specialist' classes, like the wizard, simply doubling or extending the class features to their natural conclusion to fill the gaps isn't enough.

    The 'specialist' fighter would likely have one combat feat granted at every character level, but that doesn't even cut it even if you keep the combatant hit dice and balance the problematic spells and magic items that make the tier 1 and 2s as problematic as people perceive them to be.

    The issue is deeper than that and the classes will have to be balanced against one another as though they all shared the same hit die type (particularly the specialist hit die type) and the overall power of each class needs to scale in a roughly similar manner. The change in the way hit dice works also essentially forces the need to make each class more versatile in terms of combat vs non-combat abilities and especially with the manner in which each class participates in combat.

    So now let's talk about the barbarian, in particular.

    The Barbarian

    The barbarian is one of the... special cases in that defining the barbarian essentially boils down to "rage-fueled warrior" so much that even when you factor in prestige classes, archetypes, alternate class features, and so on, you can't really escape the full BAB hit die chassis and rage class feature.

    The funny thing about that is that nearly NO other class is so defined by their mechanics. You can make a cleric or druid that doesn't even use spells or magic or a "sorcerer" that uses magic like a warlock or edit their class features to be almost completely different but you can't escape the barbarian's HD chassis and rage.

    Unlike the fighter, though, they at least get some out-of-combat versatility, but thanks to the changes I'm making to the classes, this is simply too underwhelming, particularly since skill points/level is now set by the player rather than a defining benefit of choosing one class over another.

    So in order to progress with the barbarian, I need to define the barbarian in a manner befitting a much, much larger spectrum of character archetypes and mechanics that reflect this change. The barbarian will have to do more things out of combat and have things to do in combat that can depend exclusively on the better HD chassis of the combatant hit die type and others that can work independently of hit die type.

    The plethora of feats I've previously posted already exemplify how a lot of that can work (a lot of combat options now involve a "force opponent to suffer effect or save for a lesser effect" sort of design whereas others are more of the traditional sort that enhances attacks. Most feats and abilities will be made to scale with hit dice or abilities, as appropriate. I think my version of the barbarian will always have a role in combat but how that'll work is another matter.

    Right now, I plan on replacing barbarian rage with barbarian passion. Passion, in terms of flavor, is the barbarian's ability to channel their innermost passions into the battlefield, whether this is channeling an innermost serenity, a frothing and uncontrollable rage, unflappable focus, and others as appropriate to the rage variants that'll be selectable. This will also probably determine other appropriately themed barbarian abilities and rage powers akin to pathfinder's barbarian.

    The barbarian should have other abilities that allow the barbarian to adapt and survive in a variety of environments and eventually virtually any environment and likely others related to totems and the particular lifestyle.

    This is all I can think to add for now. Next up will be the first version of the rough draft of the barbarian entry, which I will get to when I have the available time, which has been fluctuating as of late. Thanks for your patience.
    Currently working on Finding the Path in the Forgotten Realms as a massive conversion of the forgotten realms campaign setting (circa 3.5 edition and prior) into pathfinder 1st edition (as I've no interest in 2nd edition).

    Please, if you have an opinion, feel free to meander over to my thread in the link above and post a comment. Thank you.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: A Whole New Era (PEACH)

    Whew! It took FAR longer than I anticipated and there are still a lot of issues to work out, but the first rough draft version of the barbarian is complete and is posted in this post below, so this will be a glimpse as to what the classes will look like in general and afterword I'll include my thoughts on how this draft barbarian is designed in terms of fulfilling the roles I want it to fill.

    As it is written below, the dwarven/starwalt defender and legendary dreadnaught prestige classes are effectively redundant with the current iteration of the barbarian. It has way more abilities, significant pathfinder influence, and has abilities which I hope makes it a powerful choice with specialist hit dice by being able to share its powers with friends or an animal companion, which are balanced differently in this variation of the game.

    It is also important to keep in mind the rates in which abilities are gained by your selected hit dice:

    Spoiler: Abilities and Hit Dice
    Show

    Combatants use d10 HD, gain +1 to 3 ability scores at 4th and every four levels and +5 hit points at 1st level (hit points are no longer maximized at 1st level.)
    Everyone can always make one attack as normal but combatants gain a 2nd attack at 6th level and an additional attack every five levels thereafter to a maximum of 4 attacks at 16th level. (There are no irative attacks at -5, -10, and -15 anymore nor does natural attacks ignore the number of attacks you can make according to your BAB - at 1st level, you get one attack regardless of how many natural weapons you have or manufactured weapons you can wield.)
    Combatants gain +2 to one of their saves or their skill points/level in addition to being able to take a -2 penalty to add +2 to another save or their skill points/level.
    All saves gain +1 every two levels and "average" skill points constitutes 4 + the character's intelligence modifier skill points every level. Characters can not have more than a -2 penalty or more than a +2 bonus to a save or their skill points.
    Combatants gain a feat at all odd levels (1st, 3rd, 5th, and so forth.)

    Hit Dice Primary Ability Secondary Ability Tertiary Ability
    1 1st - -
    2 - 1st -
    3 2nd - -
    4 - - 1st
    5 3rd - -
    6 - 2nd -
    7 4th - -
    8 - - 2nd
    9 5th - -
    10 - 3rd -
    11 6th - -
    12 - - 3rd
    13 7th - -
    14 - 4th -
    15 8th - -
    16 - - 4th
    17 9th - -
    18 - 5th -
    19 10th - -
    20 - - 5th

    Generalists use d8 HD, gain +1 to 2 ability scores at 4th and every four levels and +4 hit points at 1st level.
    Everyone can always make one attack as normal but generalists gain a 2nd attack at 11th level.
    Generalists have all average saves and skill points but can adjust by taking a "bad" save or skill points for a +2 elsewhere up to two times.
    Generalists gain a feat every three levels, starting at 1st level (at 1st, 4th, 7th, and so forth...)

    Hit Dice Primary Ability Secondary Ability Tertiary Ability
    1 1st - -
    2 - 1st -
    3 2nd - 1st
    4 3rd 2nd -
    5 4th - -
    6 - - 2nd
    7 5th 3rd -
    8 6th - 3rd
    9 7th - -
    10 - 4th -
    11 8th - 4th
    12 9th 5th -
    13 10th - -
    14 - - 5th
    15 11th 6th -
    16 12th - 6th
    17 13th - -
    18 - 7th -
    19 14th - 7th
    20 15th 8th -

    Specialists use d6 HD, gain +1 to 1 ability score at 4th and every four levels and +3 hit points at 1st level.
    Everyone can always make one attack as normal but specialists never gain additional attacks except through class features or magic.
    Specialists gain -2 to one of their saves or their skill points/level in addition to being able to take a -2 penalty to add +2 to another save or their skill points/level.
    Specialists gain a feat at 1st level and every four levels thereafter (1st, 5th, 9th, and so forth...)

    Hit Dice Primary Ability Secondary Ability Tertiary Ability
    1 1st 1st -
    2 2nd - 1st
    3 3rd 2nd -
    4 4th - 2nd
    5 5th 3rd -
    6 6th - 3rd
    7 7th 4th -
    8 8th - 4th
    9 9th 5th -
    10 10th - 5th
    11 11th 6th -
    12 12th - 6th
    13 13th 7th -
    14 14th - 7th
    15 15th 8th -
    16 16th - 8th
    17 17th 9th -
    18 18th - 9th
    19 19th 10th -
    20 20th - 10th


    Now, here is the barbarian and please keep in mind that this is a very rough draft version of it and it will be a long time and with a lot of work before any class design I post becomes final, so everything I've posted here is still very much a work in progress and will remain so for a long time to come as I work through the phases of the design process of everything else.

    Since my initial post was more than 50k characters, please see the next post for the barbarian.
    Last edited by Neoxenok; 2015-06-09 at 03:35 AM.
    Currently working on Finding the Path in the Forgotten Realms as a massive conversion of the forgotten realms campaign setting (circa 3.5 edition and prior) into pathfinder 1st edition (as I've no interest in 2nd edition).

    Please, if you have an opinion, feel free to meander over to my thread in the link above and post a comment. Thank you.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default The Barbarian

    Spoiler: Barbarian
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    Class Skills: Acrobatics (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Geography) (Int), Knowledge (Local) (Int), Knowledge (Nature) (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Ritual) (Cha), Perform (Percussion) (Cha), Perform (Sing) (Cha), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
    Unique Ability: Barbarian's Toughness (Ex): Barbarians of all types are tougher than standard characters. They gain one additional hit point at first level and the hit die that determines their randomized hit points at each character level is increased by one type. So a barbarian that determines their hit points with a d6 instead uses a d8 or a d10 if the barbarian normally uses a d8 or a d12 if the barbarian normally uses a d10.
    Starting Feats: Armor Proficiency (Light), Armor Proficiency (Medium), Martial Weapon Proficiency, Shield Proficiency, and Simple Weapon Proficiency.
    Primary Abilities: Favored Terrain (Ex): A barbarian with one barbarian primary ability may select a type of terrain from the list below. The barbarian gains a +1 bonus on initiative checks and Knoweldge (Nature), Knowledge (geography), Perception, Stealth, and Survival skill checks when he is in this terrain. This benefit increases by +1 for every five barbarian primary abilities the barbarian gains. A barbarian traveling through his favored terrain normally leaves no trail and cannot be tracked (though he may leave a trail if he so chooses) and a barbarian always treats travel through their favored terrain as though through road or trail (see page XXX, table 13-4). A barbarian can select one of the following terrains:
    • Cold (ice, glaciers, snow, and tundra)
    • Desert (sand and wastelands)
    • Forest (coniferous and deciduous)
    • Jungle
    • Mountain (including hills)
    • Plains
    • Planes (pick one, other than Material Plane)
    • Swamp
    • Underground (caves and dungeons)
    • Urban (buildings, streets, and sewers)
    • Water (above and below the surface)


    Passion (Ex): During the barbarian's turn, he can focus his mind to unleash an untamed and unbridled inner passion with a trancelike focus, granting a number of benefits for a limited time. Upon character creation, you can select the type of passion a barbarian can channel listed below and once chosen, this can not be changed. This ability is usable at will and is activated as a swift action on the barbarian's own turn. Every five rounds that the barbarian keeps the passion ability active or when the barbarian voluntarily ends the ability, the barbarian must make a fortitude saving throw DC 10 + the number of rounds the ability has been consecutively active or gain the fatigued condition and the passion ability ends. A successful fortitude saving throw allows the ability to remain active if the barbarian chooses but becomes fatigued for one minute for each round the ability has been active (instead of the rules for the normal condition, in which the barbarian requires 8 hours to recover.) When the passion ability is active, the barbarian has considerable difficulty concentrating and must make a concentration check (see page XXX) DC 10 + the number of rounds the ability has been active in order to use any charisma, dexterity, or intelligence-based skills, except acrobatics, escape artist, intimidate, or ride checks as well as any actions that require patience or concentration except actions that involve attacking an opponent with a weapon (including ranged and thrown weapons), unarmed strike, or natural attack unless that action requires a longer action than a whole turn action. The barbarian can use any combat feat without provoking a concentration check but other feats that require an action to perform requires a concentration check. A failed concentration check results in a wasted action.
    • Defensive Stance: The barbarian gains a +2 morale bonus to all reflex saving throws, a +2 dodge bonus to defense, and you are always considered to be performing a counterattack action when determining events on any given round regardless of any other actions you take. During a defensive stance, the barbarian can not run or perform a charge action.
    • Frenzy: The barbarian gains one additional attack when performing a full round attack action, a 10 foot increase to the barbarian's base speed, and the ability to perform a full-round attack action at the conclusion of a charge action instead of a single attack. During a frenzy, the barbarian gains a -2 penalty to all attacks.
    • Invulnerable Rampage: The barbarian gains a +4 morale bonus to constitution, a +2 morale bonus to all will saving throws, and a 4 point increase to any of the barbarian's existing damage reduction or the barbarian gains damage reduction 4/-. (Once this choice is made, this choice is permanent for any use of this ability). During an invulnerable rampage, the barbarian's base speed decreases by 10 feet.
    • Rage: The barbarian gains a +4 morale bonus to strength, a +2 morale bonus to all will saving throws, and 2 temporary hit points per hit die the barbarian possesses. During a rage, the barbarian gains a -2 penalty to defense.
    • Whirlwind: The barbarian gains a +4 morale bonus to dexterity, a 10 foot increase to the barbarian's base speed, and the ability to move and attack simultaneously as a full round action. This allows the barbarian to take a double movement action and make a single attack after moving at least ten feet and again, at minimum, every additional five feet to a maximum of the barbarian's normal maximum number of attacks during a full round attack action. Running out of available attacks does not force the barbarian to stop moving but the barbarian must stop making attacks if the barbarian's movement ends. During a whirlwind, the barbarian must always take a movement action and move at least 10 feet otherwise the barbarian's passion voluntarily ends and suffers the normal consequences of that action.


    Improved Passion (Ex): A barbarian with 5 primary abilities gains the improved passion ability. The barbarian's passion abilities improve but the saving throw DC to resist fatigue and the concentration DC to perform an action that requires focus each increase to DC 10 + twice the number of rounds the ability has been active. All of the passion abilities improve as follows:
    • Defensive Stance: The barbarian's defense and reflex save bonuses improve to +3.
    • Frenzy: The barbarian's base speed increase improves to 15 feet. The barbarian also gains the ability to deal an additional 1d6 points of damage on a successful melee or thrown weapon attack.
    • Invulnerable Rampage: The barbarian's bonus to constitution increases to +6, the bonus to will saves increases to +3, and the barbarian's existing damage reduction increases by 6 or the barbarian gains damage reduction 6/-.
    • Rage: The barbarian's strength bonus increases to +6, will save bonus increases to +3, and the barbarian gains temporary hit points equal to three per hit die the barbarian possesses.
    • Whirlwind: The barbarian's dexterity bonus increases to +6 and base speed increase improves to 15 feet.


    Greater Passion (Ex): A barbarian with 9 primary abilities gains the greater passion ability. The barbarian's passion abilities improve but the saving throw DC to resist fatigue and the concentration DC to perform an action that requires focus each increase to DC 10 + thrice the number of rounds the ability has been active. All of the passion abilities improve as follows:
    • Defensive Stance: Your defense and reflex save bonuses improve to +4.
    • Frenzy: The barbarian's base speed increase improves to 20 feet. The barbarian's extra damage improves to 3d6 and the number of additional attacks performed in a full round action at the conclusion of a charge improves to two.
    • Invulnerable Rampage: The barbarian's bonus to constitution increases to +8, the bonus to will saves increases to +4, and the barbarian's existing damage reduction increases by 8 or the barbarian gains damage reduction 8/-.
    • Rage: The barbarian's strength bonus increases to +8, will save bonus increases to +4, and the barbarian gains temporary hit points equal to four per hit die the barbarian possesses.
    • Whirlwind: The barbarian's dexterity bonus increases to +8 and base speed increase improves to 20 feet.


    Epic Passion (Ex): A barbarian with 13 primary abilities gains the epic passion ability. The barbarian's passion abilities improve but the saving throw DC to resist fatigue and the concentration DC to perform an action that requires focus each increase to DC 10 + quadruple the number of rounds the ability has been active. All of the passion abilities improve as follows:
    • Defensive Stance: Your defense and reflex save bonuses improve to +5.
    • Frenzy: The barbarian's base speed increase improves to 25 feet. The barbarian's extra damage improves to 5d6.
    • Invulnerable Rampage: The barbarian's bonus to constitution increases to +10, the bonus to will saves increases to +5, and the barbarian's existing damage reduction increases by 10 or the barbarian gains damage reduction 10/-.
    • Rage: The barbarian's strength bonus increases to +10, will save bonus increases to +5, and the barbarian gains temporary hit points equal to five per hit die the barbarian possesses.
    • Whirlwind: The barbarian's dexterity bonus increases to +10 and base speed increase improves to 25 feet.


    Godly Passion (Ex): A barbarian with 17 primary abilities gains the godly passion ability. The barbarian's passion abilities improve a 5th time when the barbarian gains his 17th primary ability. The saving throw DC to resist fatigue and the concentration DC to perform an action that requires focus each increase to DC 10 + quintuple the number of rounds the ability has been active. All of the passion abilities improve as follows:
    • Defensive Stance: Your defense and reflex save bonuses improve to +6.
    • Frenzy: The barbarian's base speed increase improves to 30 feet. The barbarian's number of additional attacks performed in a full round action at the conclusion of a charge improves to three.
    • Invulnerable Rampage: The barbarian's bonus to constitution increases to +12, the bonus to will saves increases to +6, and the barbarian's existing damage reduction increases by 12 or the barbarian gains damage reduction 12/-.
    • Rage: The barbarian's strength bonus increases to +12, will save bonus increases to +6, and the barbarian gains temporary hit points equal to six per hit die the barbarian possesses.
    • Whirlwind: The barbarian's dexterity bonus increases to +12 and base speed increase improves to 30 feet.


    Savage Power: As the barbarian gains experience, they learn to channel their inner passion in new and interesting ways. When a barbarian gains their second primary ability, they gain a savage power and an additional savage power every two primary abilities they gain. Unless noted otherwise in the description, barbarians can only select a single savage power once. Savage powers are only active when a barbarian's passion ability is active.
    • Animal Fury (Ex): You are more wild and furious, gaining three natural attacks: a bite attack and two slam attacks that you can use to attack or include as a part of a full attack action. You deal 1d4 points of damage with each of these attacks and you add half your strength modifier as these attacks are secondary attacks. Using these attacks can not exceed your normal number of attacks you can use while your passion ability is active but you can use your slam attacks with any available part of your body, so you can include them with attacks with manufactured weapons. Characters that select this with the frenzy passion ability must use these attacks as their additional attacks, but gain an additional +1d6 points of damage with these attacks per three primary abilities the barbarian possesses (to a maximum of +5d6).
    • Athletic Prowress (Ex): You gain a +1 bonus per two barbarian primary abilities you possess to all dexterity and strength-based skills you possess and your movements ignore the penalties associated with difficult terrain. You can perform any dexterity-based skill in which you have ranks without provoking the need to make a concentration check to succeed.
    • Battle Roar (Ex): You gain the ability to make a trumpeting bellow that can shatter the resolve and bolster the morale of your allies as a standard action. All opponents within a 10 foot radius per point of your constitution modifier (minimum 10 feet) must make a will saving throw DC 10 + half the barbarian primary abilities you possess + your constitution modifier or gain the shaken and sickened conditions for 1d4 rounds + 1 per point of your constitution modifier (minimum +0). Opponents are only shaken until the beginning of your next turn if they succeed their saving throws. Your allies gain a +1 morale bonus to attack rolls, saving throws, and initiative per five points of your base combat bonus (minimum +1). Each time you use this ability, the saving throw DC to resist fatigue from your passion ability increases by 2. Barbarians with ranks in the intimidate skill add their ranks and any bonus from skill focus (intimidate) to the duration of the shaken and sickened conditions on a failed save.
    • Battle Roar, Greater (Ex): As battle roar, except that opponents that fail their saving throw also take 1d6 points of sonic damage per point of the barbarian's constitution modifier +1d6 points of sonic damage per two barbarian primary abilities the barbarian possesses and gain the deafened condition for the duration in addition to the other conditions. A successful save halves this damage in addition to the normal effects. The area of effect is also doubled to 20ft per point of the barbarian's constitution modifier (minimum 30ft.) Allies within the radius of the effect gain the listed morale bonus to all damage rolls and gain 5 temporary hit points per point of morale bonus granted to allies. You must have already taken the battle roar savage power to take this ability.
    • Fearless Warrior (Ex): You gain immunity to all fear effects, nausia, and the sickened conditions.
    • Guarded Stance (Ex): Any time you do not take a movement action, you gain a +1 dodge bonus to your defense per four barbarian primary abilities you possess (minimum +1). Barbarians that selected the defensive stance ability can confer this bonus to their allies if they are within the barbarian's reach.
    • Increased Resiliance (Ex): Your existing damage reduction increases by 1 per two primary abilities you possess (minimum 1). Barbarians that don't already possess damage reduction instead gain damage reduction 1/- and this damage reduction increases by 1 per two additional primary abilities beyond the second. Barbarians that have selected the invulnerable rampage ability also gain or increase their existing fire and cold reduction by a like amount.
    • Intercept (Ex): As an immediate action, you can block a successful melee or ranged attack on an adjacent ally and suffer the attack as though you were the intended target.
    • Intercept, Greater (Ex): Any time and any number of times an adjacent ally is the target of any sort of attack you can choose to suffer the attack as though you were the intended target. If both you and your adjacent ally are struck by the same attack, you can absorb half of the damage intended for your ally or allies.
    • Interminable Senses (Ex): You can sense opponents through sheer willpower, gaining a bonus to your perception checks equal to half your barbarian primary abilities you possess (minimum +2) plus your constitution modifier. This is not a specific sense but rather an uncanny ability to sense enemies and thus can be done regardless of the character's current condition of their senses or their enemies ability to fool the barbarian's senses, so abilities like invisibility offer no protection, as that ability specifically fools the visual sense, though all other modifiers apply. Opponents the barbarian can't otherwise pinpoint through their senses still have total concealment though the barbarian is not flat-footed against any opponent that can be sensed through this feature. Barbarians with the defensive stance or frenzy passion abilities gain an additional +2 bonus to perception for the use of this ability, which improves to +3 if the barbarian possesses improved passion, +4 if the barbarian possess greater passion, +5 if the barbarian possesses epic passion, and +6 if the barbarian possesses godly passion.
    • Intimidating Presence (Ex): All foes within 10 feet of a barbarian with this ability per point of the barbarian's wisdom modifier (minimum 10 feet) must make a will saving throw DC 10 + half your barbarian primary abilities you possess + your wisdom modifier or gain the shaken condition for as long as your passion ability currently remains active + 1d4 rounds + your wisdom modifier and suffer no effect on a successful save. Barbarians with 5 or more ranks in the intimidate skill or barbarians that have selected the rage ability instead have foes gain the frightened condition upon a failed save for the listed length of time and the shaken condition on a successful saving throw for 1d4 rounds + half the ranks you have in the intimidate skill. Opponents that save against this ability can only be affected once in any given twenty-four hour period.
    • Intimidating Presence, Greater (Ex): As intimidating presence, except opponents that fail their saving throw become frightened and shaken on a successful saving throw for 1d4 rounds plus a number of rounds equal to your wisdom modifier. Barbarians that have ranks in intimidate instead cause their opponents to become panicked on a failed saving throw, though the secondary effect remains the same. Opponents can only be affected by this ability once during any given twenty-four hour period. You must have already taken the intimidating presence savage power to take this ability.
    • Invulnerable (Ex): You gain immunity to critical hits, nonlethal damage, and all forms of precision damage. Any time you are subject to a successful critical hit, the saving throw DC of your current active passion ability is increased by 2.
    • Mighty Swing (Ex): You can make a single unavoidable attack with your weapon (which can be any weapon you can wield despite the name). Your opponent must make a saving throw DC 10 + half your barbarian primary abilities + your constitution modifeir or take damage equal to your normal damage as though you successfully hit an opponent with a melee attack with your chosen weapon plus any bonus damage from offensive fighting or the power attack feat +1d6 points of damage per two barbarian primary abilities you possess. This damage is halved upon a successful saving throw. Using this ability increases the saving throw DC to resist the fatigue caused by your passion ability by 2 each time it is used during any given use of your passion ability. Barbarians with the frenzy ability do not add the bonus damage but instead deal damage equal to all of the combined attacks from a successful full round attack action.
    • Mighty Swing, Greater (Ex): As the mighty swing ability, except that it affects all creatures in a cone out to 10 feet per point of your constitution modifier (minimum 10 feet) if you use a melee weapon or an area centered on a target within range of your ranged weapon equal to 10 feet per point of your constitution modifier (minimum 10 feet.)
    • No Escape (Ex): As an immediate action, you can follow the movements of an opponent or move parallel to that opponent up to a distance equal to twice your speed. You can only use this ability if you did not take a move action during your previous turn. You must be able to pinpoint the opponent you wish to follow.
    • Moment of Clarity (Ex): By expending a swift action, you can momentarily suspend the benefits and penalties of your barbarian passion ability in order to perform actions that would normally require a concentration check as though your passion ability wasn't active, although your passion ability still otherwise counts as being active for all other purposes.
    • Passion Feat (Ex): You can select a passion feat. You can only use the selected feat while your passion ability is active. You can select this savage power multiple times. Each time you select this ability, you can select a different feat, unless it is a feat that you can select multiple times. (See page XXX).
    • Rejuvinating Passion (Ex): You gain fast healing 1/round. This benefit increases by 1 per two barbarian primary abilities you possess beyond the second. Barbarians that already possess fast healing or regeneration can instead increase their existing fast healing or regeneration by the amount this savage power grants.
    • Shrug off Punishment (Ex): You gain 2 temporary hit points per barbarian primary ability you possess. Barbarians with the rage passion ability instead double the temporary hit points they recieve from their passion ability.
    • Stomp (Ex): You shake the ground so much as to make others tremble beneath your feat. All creatures within 10 feet per point of your constitution modifier (minimum 10 feet) must make a reflex saving throw DC 10 + half your barbarian primary abilities + your constitution modifier or take 1d6 points of bludgeoning damage per two barbarian primary abilities you possess +1d6 points of damage per point of your constitution modifier and fall prone. Opponents that successfully save against this ability take half damage and do not fall prone. This ability increases the DC of your saving throw against fatigue of your current active passion ability by 2 each time this ability is used. You must have selected the strength surge savage power prior to taking this ability.
    • Strength Surge (Ex): You can gain a +1 bonus to any strength check per two barbarian primary abilities you possess (minimum +2) for one check. Each use of this ability increases the saving throw DC to resist the fatigue caused by your passion ability by 2.
    • Superstitious (Ex): You gain a +1 morale bonus to all saving throws against spells and spell-like effects per five barbarian primary abilities you possess (minimum +2). Barbarians that have selected the invulnerable rampage ability also gain spell resistance (see page XXX).
    • Superstitious, Greater (Ex): You gain spell resistance. Barbarians that have selected the invulnerable rampage ability instead gain greater spell resistance. You must have selected the superstitious savage power before selecting this ability.
    • Unmovable (Ex): You gain a +1 bonus to your reflex saving throw to resist any attempt to bull rush, grapple, trip, or other attempt to move you magically per five barbarian primary abilities you possess (minimum +2). Barbarians with the defensive stance ability gain an additional +2 bonus to their saving throws.
    • Unstoppable (Ex): You gain a +1 bonus to the saving throw DC of any attempt you make to bull rush or overrun an opponent per five barbarian primary abilities you possess (minimum +2) and a +1 bonus to any strength check when attempting to defeat the break DC of objects large enough to block your movements per two barbarian primary abilities you possess. Barbarians with the invulnerable rampage ability gain an additional +2 bonus to both saves and strength checks to break large objects.
    • Vigorous Health (Ex): You do not suffer the penalties associated with ability damage, ability drain, ability burn, energy drain, enervation, exhaustion, fatigue, or stable. This ability does not remove any of those conditions and this ability does not stop those conditions from worstening but while your passion ability is active, you suffer from none of the penalties associated with these conditions.


    Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A barbarian with two or more primary abilities retains his dexterity bonus to defense (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his dexterity bonus to defense if immobilized.

    Bond of Brothers (Ex): A barbarian with at least 3 primary abilities can either achieve a close bond with his or her team mates or gain a loyal animal companion. A barbarian that selects a bond with his team mates allows the barbarian to select a number of teammates equal to his wisdom modifier (minimum one) after a bonding ceremony lasting 8 hours to gain the benefit of this ability. The barbarian or any of the bonded brothers can dismiss the bond at any time on their turn. The barbarian and his animal companion or bonded brothers all gain the bonus granted by danger sense to their initiative and perception checks as long as they remain within 10ft of the barbarian per point of the barbarian's wisdom modifier (minimum 30ft), though the bonded brothers gain no additional benefits from the barbarian's danger sense ability. If the barbarian does not have the danger sense ability, then this ability only grants a +1 bonus to perception checks. The barbarian and his animal companion or bonded brothers all share the benefit of the barbarian's passion ability and the improved variations of that ability as well as the listed drawbacks, but the barbarian's mount and bonded brothers gain none of the benefits of the savage power abilities. The barbarian's bonded brothers or animal companion can choose not to share the benefit of the passion ability and can also voluntarily end it of their own volition, suffering the drawbacks as normal.
    A barbarian that selects an animal companion from the list below. The barbarian gains a permanent +2 bonus to handle animal and ride checks with this animal companion and the animal companion's base speed with any one movement type increases by 10 feet and all other movement types increase by 5 feet. The barbarian exerts no special control over the animal companion than it would over other animals and mistreatment can cause the creature to leave or even attack the barbarian. The barbarian's grants his animal companion all of the benefits of the barbarian's favored terrain.
    The barbarian can select any of the animals listed below:

    Badger; Size: Small; Speed: 20ft, Burrow 10ft, Climb 10ft; Defense: - ; Attack: Bite (1d4) 2 Claws (1d3)
    Abilities: Str: 9 Dex: 12 Con: 13 Int: 2 Wis: 10 Cha: 9; Special: Low-light Vision, Scent
    Unique: Berserk (Gain a +1 to attack & +1d6 to damage for 1 round per hit dice)

    Camel; Size: Large; Speed: 40ft; Defense: - ; Attack: Bite (1d4)
    Abilities: Str: 15 Dex: 8 Con: 12 Int: 2 Wis: 11 Cha: 6; Special: Low-light Vision, Scent
    Unique: Perseverance (Camels are resistant to starvation and thirst (see page XXX) and can go twice as long without food or water as other creatures. Camels do not treat deserts and hot climates any differently than other climates in regards to their food and water consumption and how long they can persevere without food.)

    Cat, Domestic; Size: Tiny; Speed: 20ft, Climb 10ft; Defense: - ; Attack: Bite (1d3) 2 Claws (1d2)
    Abilities: Str: 3 Dex: 17 Con: 11 Int: 2 Wis: 10 Cha: 12; Special: Low-light vision, scent, slow fall (10ft.)
    Unique: Leap (Cats can jump without a running start and high jump a number of feat equal to 1/2 an acrobatics check total.)

    Cat, Large; Size: Medium; Speed: 40ft, Climb 20ft; Defense: +1 Natural Armor; Attack: Bite (1d6), 2 Claws (1d4)
    Abilities: Str: 7 Dex: 13 Con: 11 Int: 2 Wis: 12 Cha: 10; Special: Low-light vision, scent, slow fall (20ft)
    Unique: Takedown (At the conclusion of a charge, force opponent to make reflex save DC 10 + half cat's HD + cat's dexterity modifier or take damage as though cat hit successfully with bite and both claw attacks +1d6 damage per two hit dice and cat successfully grapples target. A successful save negates the grapple and halves the damage.)

    Cat, Small; Size: Small; Speed: 30ft, Climb 15ft; Defense: +1 Natural Armor; Attack: Bite (1d4), 2 Claws (1d3)
    Abilities: Str: 5 Dex: 15 Con: 11 Int: 2 Wis: 10 Cha: 12; Special: Low-light vision, scent, slow fall (15ft.)
    Unique: Sprint (Run action movement at 10x base speed or charge action at 4x base speed, but cat must make a fort save DC 10 +2x number of rounds sprinting or gain fatigued condition each consecutive round.)

    Dire Rat; Size: Small; Speed: 30ft, Climb 20ft, Swim 20ft; Defense: +1 Natural Armor; Attack: Bite (1d4)
    Abilities: Str: 8 Dex: 15 Con: 9 Int: 2 Wis: 13 Cha: 8; Special: Low-light vision, scent
    Unique: Chew (Rats can deal 1 point of damage each round to an object regardless of its hardness and 1 point of a rat's bite damage always ignores hardness or damage reduction, except hardness from adamantine objects and creatures with damage reduction without a listed bypass, such as DR 1/-)

    Dog, Domestic; Size: Small; Speed: 30ft; Defense: - ; Attack: Bite (1d4)
    Abilities: Str: 11 Dex: 13 Con: 8 Int: 2 Wis: 10 Cha: 10; Special: Low-light vision, scent
    Unique: Man's Best Friend (The handle animal DC to handle a dog is always 5 less than otherwise indicated and handle animal is always treated as trained when handling a dog. Dogs can learn 1 trick more than its intelligence score would allow it +1 per 5 hit dice the dog possesses.)

    Dog, Riding; Size: Medium; Speed: 40ft; Defense: +1 Natural Armor ; Attack: Bite (1d6)
    Abilities: Str: 13 Dex: 11 Con: 8 Int: 2 Wis: 10 Cha: 10; Special: Low-light vision, scent
    Unique: Growl (Dogs can demoralize an opponent as a standard action as the intimidate skill function, treating half the dog's hit dice as ranks in the intimidate skill (minimum 1) for the purpose of this ability. This benefit stacks with the dog's ranks in intimidate, if any.)

    Eagle; Size: Small; Speed: 10ft, Fly 40ft (Average); Defense: - ; Attack: Bite (1d4), 2 Talons (1d4)
    Abilities: Str: 8 Dex: 12 Con: 10 Int: 2 Wis: 10 Cha: 10; Special: Swallow Whole, Telescopic Vision
    Unique: Eagles gain snatch and flyby attack as bonus feats. Eagles have a +2 species bonus to vision-based -perception checks.

    Hawk; Size: Tiny; Speed: 10ft, Fly 30ft (Average); Defense: - ; Attack: Bite (1d3), Talons (1d4)
    Abilities: Str: 6 Dex: 14 Con: 10 Int: 2 Wis: 10 Cha: 10; Special: Swallow Whole, Telescopic Vision
    Unique: Hawks gain snatch and flyby attack as bonus feats. Hawks have a +2 species bonus to vision-based perception checks.

    Horse, light; Size: Large; Speed: 60ft; Defense: - ; Attack: Bite (1d3), 2 Hooves (1d4)
    Abilities: Str: 13 Dex: 8 Con: 11 Int: 2 Wis: 11 Cha: 10; Special: Scent
    Unique: Horse's strength score is considered 4 points higher for determining carrying capacity.

    Horse, heavy; Size: Large; Speed: 50ft; Defense: +1 Natural Armor ; Attack: Bite (1d3), 2 Hooves (1d4)
    Abilities: Str: 14 Dex: 7 Con: 13 Int: 2 Wis: 11 Cha: 8; Special: Scent
    Unique: Horse's strength score is considered 4 points higher for determining carrying capacity.

    Owl; Size: Tiny; Speed: 10ft, Fly 40ft (Average); Defense: - ; Attack: Talons (1d4)
    Abilities: Str: 3 Dex: 15 Con: 10 Int: 2 Wis: 12 Cha: 10; Special: Low-light vision, telescopic vision
    Unique: Owls recieve a +2 (+4 in temperate forest terrain) species bonus to all perception and stealth checks.

    Pony; Size: Medium; Speed: 50ft; Defense: - ; Attack: Bite (1d2), 2 Hooves (1d3)
    Abilities: Str: 11 Dex: 10 Con: 11 Int: 2 Wis: 11 Cha: 10; Special: Scent
    Unique: Pony's strength score is considered 4 points higher for determining carrying capacity.

    Snake, tiny viper; Size: Tiny; Speed: 15ft, Climb 15ft, Swim 15ft; Defense: - ; Attack: Bite (1d2+Poison)
    Abilities: Str: 3 Dex: 17 Con: 13 Int: 1 Wis: 12 Cha: 8; Special: Infravision
    Unique: Venomous (Bite attack also poisons subject, forcing target to succeed at a fortitude save every hour at DC 10 + half snake's hit dice + snake's constitution modifier or become poisoned. Poison- (Primary) Target gains severe pain condition. (Secondary) Target gains minor pain condition. Target must succeed one save to end the poisoned condition.)

    Snake, medium viper; Size: Medium; Speed: 20ft, Climb 20ft, Swim 20ft; Defense: +1 Natural; Attack: Bite (1d4)
    Abilities: Str: 7 Dex: 13 Con: 13 Int: 1 Wis: 12 Cha: 8; Special: Infravision
    Unique: Venomous (Bite attack also poisons subject, forcing target to succeed at a fortitude save every hour at DC 10 + half snake's hit dice + snake's constitution modifier or become poisoned. Poison- (Primary) Target gains severe pain condition and 1 point of dexterity damage. (Secondary) Target gains minor pain condition. Target must succeed one save to end the poisoned condition.)

    Wolf; Size: Medium; Speed: 40ft; Defense: +1 Natural Armor; Attack: Bite (1d6)
    Abilities: Str: 11 Dex: 11 Con: 11 Int: 2 Wis: 10 Cha: 10; Special: Low-light vision, scent
    Unique: Bite-and-Trip (Wolves gain a free trip attempt with any successful bite attack that does not provoke an attack of opportunity.)

    Bond of Brothers, Improved (Ex): Barbarians that have chosen to bond with his team mates can innately sense one another's health and position in relation to one another when the barbarian gains 7 primary abilities. They can work and communicate with one another regardless of whether they can see or interact with one another as long as they remain within 10ft of one another per point of the barbarian's constitution modifier (minimum 30ft). Barbarians that have selected an animal companion gain the same benefit though the animal companion also gains either an increase in the animal's size catagory (animals one size catagory larger than the barbarian can not gain this benefit) or a single +2 increase to the animal's strength, dexterity, constitution, or wisdom score as well as a bonus feat of the barbarian's choice.

    Uncanny Dodge, Improved (Ex): A barbarian with three or more primary abilities can no longer be flanked. This defense denies opponents the ability to sneak attack the barbarian by flanking unless the attacker also possesses the improved uncanny dodge ability and a base combat bonus that is equal or higher than that of the barbarian's.

    Indomitable Will (Ex): When the barbarians gains 7 barbarian primary abilities and when the barbarian's passion ability is active, the barbarian gains a +4 bonus to all will saving throws against enchantment and telepathic effects. In addition, any time a barbarian makes a successful saving throw against any such effect, the secondary effect is negated. Barbarians that also possess the iron will feat do not suffer the primary effect of an enchantment or telepathy effect on a failed saving throw but instead suffer the secondary effect. A barbarian with the epic will feat are immune to enchantment and telepathic effects.

    Bond of Brothers, Greater (Ex): The barbarian's bonded team mates or animal companion gain the benefit of a single savage power ability while the passion ability is active when the barbarian gains 11 primary abilities. The barbarian's animal companion also gains a single +2 increase to the animal's strength, dexterity, constitution, or wisdom score as well as a bonus feat of the barbarian's choice.Tireless Passion (Ex): The barbarian can keep his passion ability active for a number of rounds equal to 5 + his constitution modifier (minimum 5) before needing to make a saving throw and the barbarian gains a +2 bonus to this saving throw any time the ability is ended voluntarily. This abillity benefits the barbarian's bonded brothers or animal companion as well, using the barbarian's bonded brothers' respective constitution modifiers to determine the duration of their passion abilities before needing to make a fortitude saving throw.

    Unstoppable Passion (Ex): The barbarian can maintain the passion ability indefinately and can voluntarily end the ability without penalty or any need to make a saving throw. This ability benefits the barbarian's bonded brothers or animal companion as well.

    Secondary Abilities: Bonus Feat: When barbrarians gain their first secondary ability and again every three secondary abilities beyond the first, the barbarian can select a bonus combat feat or passion feat as well as one of the following feats: XXX. The barbarian must meet all of the prerequisites for the selected feat.

    Adaptable Survivalist (Ex): Barbarians are naturally flexable to any environment and resistant to its dangers. The barbarian can always take ten on survival checks, even when under duress and can take 20 to find food without requiring additional time. The barbarian gains a +2 bonus on any saving throw against disease, poison, weather effects, wind effects, and any environmental hazards. Barbarians always negate any secondary effect on a successful saving throw against weather, wind, and natural dangers though they still suffer any primary effects on a failed saving throw. In their favored terrain, a failed saving throw results in the secondary effect instead of the primary effect though a successful save negates any secondary effect still.

    Danger Sense (Ex): A barbarian with two secondary abilities gains a +1 insight bonus to defense and reflex saving throws during any situation in which the barbarian is flat-footed due to being unaware of the attacking opponent as well as against attacks made by traps or other devices. Whenever the barbarian makes a reflex saving throw against a trap or other device, the barbarian suffers no effect on a successful saving throw instead of the secondary effect but still suffers the primary effect on a failed reflex saving throw. This benefit improves by 1 for every two additional secondary abilities the barbarian gains.

    Athletic Survivalist (Ex): Barbarians gain poison, disease, acid, fire, and cold resistance as well as a climb and swim speed equal to half their base movement. Barbarians can hold their breath for one minute per point of their constitution score instead of one or two rounds per point of their constitution score (see page XXX). Barbarians subject to slow suffocation multiply their available time by 5 to determine how long they have before they begin to suffocate or their intervals between each saving throw.

    Eternal Warrior (Ex): Barbarians that have died, particularly in battle, have a chance of surviving an otherwise fatal situation. 1d4 rounds after a barbarian has been slain, the barbarian can choose to return to life with 1d4 hit points, the exhausted condition, and 1d6 points of constitution burn. Barbarians that have been slain by constitution damage, drain, or burn can not use this ability. Barbarians retain any physical or magical condition, such as any poison, disease, or curse, that the barbarian had prior to death. Any such condition that caused the death of the barbarian can thus prevent the barbarian from returning to life. Mental conditions, such as charm, domination, fear, or otherwise are removed. Barbarians can not use this ability if the barbarian died of old age. Once dead, a barbarian must succeed a will save DC 20 + 5 per time this ability has ever been used. Once this saving throw has been failed, the barbarian can never use this ability to return to life, though a barbarian that has been returned to life by some other means can reset the DC and use the ability again.

    Master Survivalist (Ex): Barbarians gain improved acid, fire, and cold resistance as well as immunity to disease, and poison. You no longer need to eat, drink, or breathe. Their swim and climb speed improve to equal their base speed. A barbarian's vision is no longer impeded by environmental effects, such as smoke, smog, or similar environmental or weather effects.

    Tertiary Abilities: Barbarian's Resiliance (Ex): When the barbarian gains a tertiary ability, the barbarian gains damage reduction 1/-, fire reduction 1/-, and cold reduction 1/- and these abilities each increase by 1 for each additional tertiary ability the barbarian gains.


    Spoiler: Barbarian Table
    Show
    Number of Abilities Primary Abilities Secondary Abilities Tertiary Abilities
    1 Favored Terrain +1, Passion Adaptable Survivalist, Bonus Feat Barbarian Resilience 1/-
    2 Savage Power, Uncanny Dodge Danger Sense +1 Barbarian Resilience 2/-
    3 Bond of Brothers, Improved Uncanny Dodge Athletic Survivalist Barbarian Resilience 3/-
    4 Savage Power Bonus Feat, Danger Sense +2 Barbarian Resilience 4/-
    5 Favored Terrain +2, Improved Passion Eternal Warrior, Master Survivalist Barbarian Resilience 5/-
    6 Savage Power Danger Sense +3 Barbarian Resilience 6/-
    7 Indomitable Will, Improved Bond of Brothers Bonus Feat Barbarian Resilience 7/-
    8 Savage Power Danger Sense +4 Barbarian Resilience 8/-
    9 Greater Passion - Barbarian Resilience 9/-
    10 Favored Terrain +3, Savage Power, Tireless Passion Bonus Feat, Danger Sense +5 Barbarian Resilience 10/-
    11 Greater Bond of Brothers X X
    12 Savage Power X X
    13 Epic Passion X X
    14 Savage Power X X
    15 Favored Terrain +4 X X
    16 Savage Power X X
    17 Godly Passion X X
    18 Savage Power X X
    19 Unstoppable Passion X X
    20 Favored Terrain +5, Savage Power X X


    WHEW! That was a lot more work than I thought it would be. On second thought, I'll post my thoughts on this iteration of the barbarian on a later post and field any questions when I have time.
    Currently working on Finding the Path in the Forgotten Realms as a massive conversion of the forgotten realms campaign setting (circa 3.5 edition and prior) into pathfinder 1st edition (as I've no interest in 2nd edition).

    Please, if you have an opinion, feel free to meander over to my thread in the link above and post a comment. Thank you.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: A Whole New Era (PEACH)

    I've been tweaking the barbarian a bit here and there and will alter my previous post as time allows.
    Currently, I'm working on the bard, which is getting a far more significant overhaul than I previously anticipated. I never really thought the bard needed to be overhauled, but I'm putting a lot of new ideas into it and seeing how everything fits together.

    My main problem with working on the classes is that moving forward, the classes and likely the feats and spells I'll work on following this section will be quite a mess. I have to remind myself that all this is merely a 1st draft in what will precede a long and lengthy bout of modifications and new drafts to clean this up.

    As of now, I've got the skeleton of the bard in place and I'm working on the performances. Although I didn't realize it until now, I've been working out per day and limited use abilities out of the game. As you can see with the barbarian, the passion ability is at-will but causes the full fatigued condition once you turn the ability off unless you make a save that starts out manageable but can become quite high if the ability is active for too long. I changed this ability in my notes to cause exhaustion instead and I fiddled around with the tireless and such abilities but it's otherwise the same. Bardic performance is no different and causes fatigue if active for too long, though this won't be the case as performance lasts minutes rather than rounds but costs one creativity point to activate (of which the bard gets 1/2 HD + CHA mod) or more depending on the performance.

    The bard starts with 3 performances, of which you select from a list, and gain a bonus performance every three levels after (4th, 7th, and so on). Performances improve as your "performance level" improves, which occurs with roughly the same frequency as the sorcerer's spell levels compared to HD/primary abilities.

    Anyway, it's still a work in progress. After the bard, I'll be working on the cleric, which will be comparatively easy if more time consuming but it'll much more closely resemble it's pathfinder counterpart except with sorcerer-style casting.
    Currently working on Finding the Path in the Forgotten Realms as a massive conversion of the forgotten realms campaign setting (circa 3.5 edition and prior) into pathfinder 1st edition (as I've no interest in 2nd edition).

    Please, if you have an opinion, feel free to meander over to my thread in the link above and post a comment. Thank you.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: A Whole New Era (PEACH)

    I'll try to craft a 20th level Raging Combatant Barbarian and compare it with a 20th level Raging Specialist Barbarian just to compare them.

    Comparing them Side by side

    Stats

    Base stats are all 13. By 20th lvl, the Combatant got STR 18, CON 18, DEX 18, INT 13, WIS 13, CAR 13. The Specialist got STR 18, CON 13, DEX 13, INT 13, WIS 13, CAR 13.

    When raging, the Combatant (can rage for 14 rds before needing to make a DC 52 or greater Fort check (+ 17 bonus) ups his STR to 26 (+8 bonus).

    When raging, the Specialist (can rage forever) ups his STR to 30 (+10 bonus).

    HP

    Combatant - 20d12 + 106 (mean 236 HP)
    Specialist - 20d8 + 24 (mean 114 HP).

    When Raging, the combatant gains 160 temp HP (going to 396 effective HP), and the Specialist gains 240 temp HP (going to 354 effective HP)

    Feats

    Combatant: 12 Feats
    Specialist: 9 Feats

    Saves and Skill points
    Combatant: Fort +15, Ref +15 (+17 vs traps), Will +13. 100 skill points
    Specialist: Fort +11 (+15 vs magic), Ref +11 (+15 vs magic) (+16 vs traps), Will+11 (+15 vs magic), 60 skill points

    Attacks, Initiative and Defense
    I dont get if there is BAB anywhere. So let's do it with and without BAB

    1) With BAB

    Combatant: Initiative 24 (27 on plains), Base Defense 34, 32 when raging, 36 vs traps. Attacks +24/+24/+24/+24, damage 2d6+6 each (assuming two handed weapon). When raging, attacks +28/+28/+28/+28, damage 2d6+12 each.

    Specialist: Initiative 11 (16 on plains), Base Defense 21, 19 when raging, 26 vs traps. Attacks +14, damage 2d6+6 (assuming two handed weapon). When raging, attacks +20, damage 2d6+15

    2) Without BAB

    Combatant: Initiative 4 (7 on plains), Base Defense 14, 12 when raging, 16 vs traps. Attacks +4/+4/+4/+4, damage 2d6+6 each (assuming two handed weapon). When raging, attacks +8/+8/+8/+8, damage 2d6+12 each

    Specialist: Initiative 1 (6 on plains), Base Defense 11, 9 when raging, 16 vs traps. Attacks +4, damage 2d6+6 (assuming two handed weapon). When raging, attacks +10, damage 2d6+15

    Special Abilities

    Both Barbarians have Invulnerable (Ex); Vigorous Health (Ex); Shrug off Punishment (Ex); Indomitable Will (Ex); Uncanny Dodge, Improved (Ex);Adaptable Survivalist (Ex); Athletic Survivalist (Ex);
    Eternal Warrior (Ex); and Master Survivalist (Ex).

    Also, Combatant's Mighty Swing does +5d6 damage (DC 20 to resist), while Specialist's Mighty Swing does +10d6 damage (DC 21 ro resist) in a 10ft cone.

    Combatant got DR 5/- and Fast Healing 5 while Specialist got DR 10/- and Fast Healing 10. Also, Combatant has a Bonded Brother (improved), while Specialist got a Bonded Brother (greater).

    Lastly, the Specialist got Spell Resistance (Greater Supersticious), can use a swift action to ignore restrictions on rage and act like normal (Moment of Clarity), and is immune to fear (Fearless)
    Last edited by Bruno Carvalho; 2015-06-17 at 03:36 PM. Reason: Edited to include the barbarians.

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    Default Re: A Whole New Era (PEACH)

    Lets analyze this guys.

    First, RAW, the Specialist is immune to damage. Not only because he got DR 10/- and Fast Healing 10, but because he can, at will and with no penalties, leave rage then reenter rage, gaining 240 temp HP. So, unless you can do 354 damage in one round (take in consideration his varied immunities, Spell Resistance AND DR 10/-), he can simply deactivate and reactivate rage to regain those 240 temp HP. AT WILL.
    Alas, the Combatant also can do it, just raging for a round our two (and doing a DC 13 or 16 Fortitude +2 check) then deactivating/reactivating it to gain 160 temp HP.

    That point aside, the Combatant got better HP, more skills, better Init, better saves overall(even with specialist's anti-magical bonuses AND Danger Sense), but got fewer imunities and lower DR.

    Also, the Combatant does MUCH more damage, even with rage AND mighty Swing factored. If both Barbarians hit all their moves, the combatant does 8d6+48 (mean 76 damage) with his 4 attacks, while the specialist does 12d6+15 (mean 57 damage) with a mighty swing.

    So, (barring RAW almost IMMORTALITY described in first paragraph), I don't see why anyone would take Specialist over Combatant.
    Last edited by Bruno Carvalho; 2015-06-17 at 03:41 PM. Reason: Typo

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: A Whole New Era (PEACH)

    I really want to contribute to this somehow...but all I'm coming up with are things that aren't constructive, so good luck with this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by digiman619 View Post
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  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: A Whole New Era (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruno Carvalho View Post
    Lets analyze this guys.
    Oooh. That's a problem. I don't have much time to do a more thorough workup but switching rage on/off like a light switch to benefit from a constantly replenishing supply of temp HP seems against the spirit of the idea of the barbarian.

    For now, I've redefined the two offending abilities thusly:

    Tireless Passion (Ex): The barbarian can keep his passion ability active for a number of rounds equal to 5 + his constitution modifier (minimum 5) before needing to make a saving throw. Failure of this saving throw results in gaining the fatigued condition instead of the exhausted condition. A successful fortitude saving throw after ending the ability voluntarily results in gaining the fatigued condition for 2 rounds per round in which this ability has been active instead of one minute per round in which the ability has been active. This abillity benefits the barbarian's bonded brothers or animal companion as well, using the barbarian's bonded brothers' respective constitution modifiers to determine the duration of their passion abilities before needing to make a fortitude saving throw.

    Unstoppable Passion (Ex): The barbarian can maintain the passion ability indefinately but voluntarily ending the ability still forces a fortitude saving throw as normal. This ability benefits the barbarian's bonded brothers or animal companion as well.

    I've also changed the passion ability as such that it is activated as a whole-turn action (subsumes your standard, swift, and move actions in a round and you're performing this action from the beginning of your turn and completes at the beginning of your following turn).

    I don't like the idea that the barbarian is essentially going to be always using their first turn doing this since the barb will just be sitting back while everyone else has already started fighting, but it seems to fit the idea that the barbarian is working themselves into their passion-state (their frothy-mouthed fury of a 1000 angry gods) and voluntarily ending the passion still results in fatigue regardless of success or failure, though the DC is still only 15 if you do it the first round for specialists or 13 for combatants.

    My other idea is simply to alter the passion ability to simply have a refractory period in which it can't be activated again under any circumstance until X time has passed (either a flat number, one based on the barb's con modifier, or one based on the duration of the passion ability). I'm fine with this idea too but I don't like having this *and* and save-for-fatigue/exhaustion model which is the current method I'm using to discourage repeated use so I'd have to rewrite that in order to remove that little bit of extra complication. (Under my fatigue rules, an exhausted character that becomes fatigued or exhausted again takes constitution burn.)

    Still, I hope this discourages what I'll call the 'light switch' barbarian.

    Looking back at the rules for HD - I just realized that my most recent post neglected to mention the base combat bonus - which replaces BAB. Each HD type grants a base combat bonus. This advances for the combatant at a +1/HD (like the fighter's BAB), for the generalist at +3/4 per HD (like the cleric or rogue), for the specialist at +1/2 per HD (like the sorcerer or wizard).
    This bonus adds to a character's attack bonus, defense, and initiative. I also neglected to mention that initiative is the sum of a character's base combat bonus (or BCB for short), dexterity, and wisdom modifiers.

    In regards to the combat power of the specialist, I'm not surprised that the barbarian specialist isn't as good in a straight fight (though it was my intention to make them serviceable - moreso than the non-combat-oriented classes like the bard) but I wanted them to make up for it through being able to buff their friends or their animal companion with bonded brothers, who'll be able to take advantage of the more powerful version of passion with more benefits than a combatant could give since the combatant HD and early level abilities favor the barbarian more than the barbarian's friends in addition to the specialist being more favorable to the force-my-enemies-to-make-a-save vs PAIN savage powers than the combatant barbarian, like the battle roar and mighty swing abilities.

    Still, I'm not entirely happy with some of the savage power abilities and bonded brothers abilities (particularly the animal companion) and those abilities can be reworked to attempt to achieve the intended result of the specialists' parity with the combatant, all things considered.
    Currently working on Finding the Path in the Forgotten Realms as a massive conversion of the forgotten realms campaign setting (circa 3.5 edition and prior) into pathfinder 1st edition (as I've no interest in 2nd edition).

    Please, if you have an opinion, feel free to meander over to my thread in the link above and post a comment. Thank you.

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Default Re: A Whole New Era (PEACH)

    Well, with the base combat bonus rule... the Specialist is even WORSE! It'll have 21 base Defense against attackers with over +20 to hit, and +14 to attack against enemies with more than 30 defense. And there is more... RAW, a lvl 20 specialist with invunerable rampage and increased Resilience will have DR 32/- . And going with that line, it is not hard to imagine him having the most CON as possible (lets say CON 20), plus permanent passion (with clarity of mind) bringing it to CON 28 (incresed resilience) doing Battle Roar, Greater round after round, dealing 19d6 sonic damage +shaken or sickened + deafened to oponents (DC 29 to half damage) while also giving you and your allies +4 bonus to attacks, damage, saving throws and 20 temp HP.

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: A Whole New Era (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruno Carvalho View Post
    Well, with the base combat bonus rule... the Specialist is even WORSE! It'll have 21 base Defense against attackers with over +20 to hit, and +14 to attack against enemies with more than 30 defense.
    Well, yeah, but that's kinda the point. The combatant is better at combat but they have fewer and less powerful abilities. Where the 3.5e game broke is when you could use a wizard's magic to out fight a barbarian even with basic stuff like that and that's precisely what I intend to change.

    The specialist barbarian really shouldn't be in the thick of combat except in a sort of leadership role, which is why their ally-boosting abilities (bond of brothers and some of their savage abilities) plays a greater importance with them than the self-boosting abilities that would generally be more valuable to a combatant barbarian.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruno Carvalho View Post
    And there is more... RAW, a lvl 20 specialist with invunerable rampage and increased Resilience will have DR 32/- . And going with that line, it is not hard to imagine him having the most CON as possible (lets say CON 20), plus permanent passion (with clarity of mind) bringing it to CON 28 (incresed resilience) doing Battle Roar, Greater round after round, dealing 19d6 sonic damage +shaken or sickened + deafened to oponents (DC 29 to half damage) while also giving you and your allies +4 bonus to attacks, damage, saving throws and 20 temp HP.
    Are you saying this is too powerful for a high level specialist barbarian? If anything, I may need to give the barbarian more given the way the specialist bard's performances are turning out.

    Hell, compare to the pathfinder bard's deadly performance:

    Deadly Performance (Su): A bard of 20th level or higher can use his performance to cause one enemy to die from joy or sorrow. To be affected, the target must be able to see and hear the bard perform for 1 full round and be within 30 feet. The target receives a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the bard’s level + the bard’s Cha modifier) to negate the effect. If a creature’s saving throw succeeds, the target is staggered for 1d4 rounds, and the bard cannot use deadly performance on that creature again for 24 hours. If a creature's saving throw fails, it dies. Deadly performance is a mind-effecting death effect that relies on audible and visual components.

    So each round the performance is active, the bard can just straight up murder an opponent. I won't even get into what high level caster than do - even given all the ways I intend to power down the T1 and T2 classes. Hell, I'm powering up the bard from the pathfinder's version to have more performances and more powerful performances as well as making their casting more versatile.

    The point is that I *want* the combat oriented classes to be the best at combat - regardless of their choice of HD at least compared to similarly HD'd comrades. The barbarian, fighter, paladin, and to a lesser extent the ranger and monk *should* be the most difficult to injure and kill in the 'traditional' way (hitting their defense with a melee or ranged attack and dealing hit point damage) even above and beyond other combatant classes.

    So I mean is what the specialist can do with his 19d6 + status effect every round really that much worse than what a similarly high HD combatant barbarian can do - or better yet - a high level fighter, wizard, or other choice class? The average damage (on a failed save) is only 66.5 points of sonic damage and the status effects are only moderately debilitating at worst and an inconvenience at best.
    Currently working on Finding the Path in the Forgotten Realms as a massive conversion of the forgotten realms campaign setting (circa 3.5 edition and prior) into pathfinder 1st edition (as I've no interest in 2nd edition).

    Please, if you have an opinion, feel free to meander over to my thread in the link above and post a comment. Thank you.

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: A Whole New Era (PEACH)

    And, yet, I fail to see where this "levels the competition" between casters and non-casters. First, as you just stated, this don't makes him good as your T1 and T2 classes EVEN with the planned nerfs to them. Second, it creates several boobytraps: The aforementioned Raging Specialist Barbarian is inferior in every way to the Raging Combatant Barbarian, and the Raging Combatant is inferior in defense to the Invulnerable Rampaging Specialist Barbarian (the rampaging barbarian got better defense with the DR 32/- AND gains fast healing 10 and 20 temp HP per round vs DR 5/-) AND inferior in damage (as the combatant does 8d6+48 (mean 76 damage) in one target with a full attack and the specialist does 19d6 -mean 66,5 damage- in the first round, then 19d6+4 - mean 70,5 damage - in the following rounds while also dishing debuffs AND buffs simultaneously to a 180ft range). Sure, the enemies may save and take half damage, but so the attacks of the combatant may miss...

    Again, as another point, I fail to see why take Mighty Swing and Mighty Swing, Greater. If you're a Combatant, the increased damage will be lower than your standard full-attack damage (it gets worse with the rage and the frenzy, even with the frenzied rider on Mighty Swing since the enemy can save for half damage or even 0 damage with the right skills), and if you're a Specialist, it is inferior in every way to Battle Roar (less area of effect, damages companions, no buffs, no debuffs).

    In my humble opinion, every decision should carry pros and cons or it is not a decision. There are very good points in the class design: the decision between frenzy or rage is a good example (as rage got good offense and defense while frenzy got superb offense and little defense), but if an option is clearly superior to another in every (or almost every) aspect, there is no decision to make, as it becomes a test of "system mastery" separating the "n3wbs" from the "pr0s". And I'm surely only scratching the surface here: I'm by no means close to a pun-pun level optimizer.

    Please take this words not as a personal attack or a deterrent to your planned actions, but be prepared for the need of lots and lots of playtest, as the sheer number of moving pieces required to craft the charaters makes the possibility of creating exploitable system holes and vastly underpowered characters will be huge.

    PS: I'll know I'll generate a lot of hate with this confession, but I did like D&D 4th edition. It had it's flaws, of course, but one of the points that were great in it was: It was freaking HARD to create a weak character. I mean, there were stronger and weaker character options, but even if you chose the weaker options you could still be doing the character's intended role (striker, defender, controler or leader) well.

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    Default Re: A Whole New Era (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruno Carvalho View Post
    And, yet, I fail to see where this "levels the competition" between casters and non-casters. First, as you just stated, this don't makes him good as your T1 and T2 classes EVEN with the planned nerfs to them.
    Given how powerful most people seem to consider the T1 and T2s to be, I doubt anything short of giving them the "you win the game" special ability anywhere from level 5 to 16 or whenever would ever close that gap. My opinions differ in that regard, however, but that's a design goal that requires completion of this draft (or at least to be through spells and feats in addition to classes) as well as likely several rounds of playtesting and rejiggering the RAW accordingly before I can claim success in at least doing a better job than 3.5e and PF did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruno Carvalho View Post
    Second, it creates several boobytraps: The aforementioned Raging Specialist Barbarian is inferior in every way to the Raging Combatant Barbarian, and the Raging Combatant is inferior in defense to the Invulnerable Rampaging Specialist Barbarian (the rampaging barbarian got better defense with the DR 32/- AND gains fast healing 10 and 20 temp HP per round vs DR 5/-) AND inferior in damage (as the combatant does 8d6+48 (mean 76 damage) in one target with a full attack and the specialist does 19d6 -mean 66,5 damage- in the first round, then 19d6+4 - mean 70,5 damage - in the following rounds while also dishing debuffs AND buffs simultaneously to a 180ft range). Sure, the enemies may save and take half damage, but so the attacks of the combatant may miss...
    I understand that one version of the barbarian is better than the other, but I never intended to design a perfect level of parity into all of the choices available to designing a barbarian. The specialist is worse at combat and better at buffing his friends and the combatant is better at personally hitting and tanking hits.

    That's about exactly what I expected to happen.

    The specialist and combatant barbarians are not designed to fill precisely the same role in the party as one another. I mean, the specialist doesn't suck at it (compared to other specialists), but the specialist is designed to fill more of a support role and a lot of the class options are there to fill that role.

    That 32/- DR barbarian specialist or one that took the defensive stance passion ability, for example, with intercept, greater and guarded stance can confer enormously useful defensive benefits to an adjacent ally and not only tank hits intended for that ally but can also use skills or whatever to distract enemies to allow secondary fighters (like the rogue, monk, or ranger) that are also enhanced through bond of brothers and any number of savage powers to provide the party with any number of tactical advantages. Even with the -10 to defense due to their lower BCB, that can be easily made up for and still be made difficult to hit (except by dedicated combatants, which makes sense, honestly) and even more difficult to deal serious damage to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruno Carvalho View Post
    Again, as another point, I fail to see why take Mighty Swing and Mighty Swing, Greater. If you're a Combatant, the increased damage will be lower than your standard full-attack damage (it gets worse with the rage and the frenzy, even with the frenzied rider on Mighty Swing since the enemy can save for half damage or even 0 damage with the right skills), and if you're a Specialist, it is inferior in every way to Battle Roar (less area of effect, damages companions, no buffs, no debuffs).
    It's still useful for combatants, but mainly as a way to damage other combatants that you can't otherwise hit with a full round attack, such as defense-oriented classes with a gi-normous defense bonus or high-DR opponents that can tank four attacks that do smaller damage better than a single attack that does lots of damage. Mighty swing also allows melee characters to perform ranged (albeit short-ranged) attacks - enormously useful to fight those annoying wizards that think the fly spell is the bee's knees against armored melee opponents.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruno Carvalho View Post
    In my humble opinion, every decision shold carry pros and cons or it is not a decision. There are very good points in the class design: the decision between frenzy or rage is a good example (as rage got good offense and defense while frenzy got superb offense and little defense), but if an option is clearly superior to another in every (or almost every) aspect, there is no decision to make, as it becomes a test of "system mastery" separating the "n3wbs" from the "pr0s". And I'm surely only scratching the surface here: I'm by no means close to a pun-pun level optimizer.
    Well, yes, but not every option available is supposed to allow the barbarian to fill the role of the unbridled murder-tank. In fact, I wanted to avoid having the barbarian be expressly designed to fill one and only one role, so a lot of its abilities give it the role of party support akin to that of the marshal class or bard (only less so in terms of versatility but moreso in terms of raw power output or defensive benefits.) The defensive stance and invulnerable rampager are both designed to tank hits at the expense of mobility and intercept attacks intended for their friends or interrupt their enemy's attacks.
    The whirlwind passion ability is clearly influenced by the dervish dance of the prestige class of the same name and it's also a winning choice for dex-based characters for ranged or finesse combat as well as highly mobile combat.

    Looking through the savage abilities, I can clearly see that I need to show more defensive abilities that would be favorable to the defensive stance character and I may add them soon because I remember wanting to give the defensive stance barbarian the ability to essentially lock their opponent within their threatened area but I think that got lost in one of my many initial revisions to the passion ability.

    So it looks like the defensive stance is underwhelming due to a lack of support and the attack-roll based counterattack that the specialist can't take advantage of but I'll do what I can to reverse that. However, I honestly don't believe the same in regards to the invulnerable rager or the whirlwind barbarian.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruno Carvalho View Post
    Please take this words not as a personal attack or a deterrent to your planned actions, but be prepared for the need of lots and lots of playtest, as the sheer number of moving pieces required to craft the charaters makes the possibility of creating exploitable system holes and vastly underpowered characters will be huge.
    It's okay - I value the input you've given me so far and I'm very much expecting extensive playtesting and revisions in the future. Individual characters have far more options with what I'm building with this than they did in any pathfinder or D&D game and this will only be more true with the more material I complete as I work through this project. Although I'd like to avoid it as much as possible, but it seems inevitable that some options will be superior to others for characters as it's the nature of having options. I share the design goal of giving as much parity to the usefulness of every option as much as possible but I have no expectation that every option is going to be useful. Even in 4e, there are subpar options and given the massive quantity of options in a 3.5e game, there will always be options to avoid.

    For example, power attack is useless for a wizard but a godsend to a fighter, even if the wizard qualifies for the feat. You could even consider it a trap option compared to something like the collegiate wizard feat or even the spell focus feat or any number of metamagic feats when it comes to feat choices for wizards. What I particularly wish to avoid are feats that are just traps light toughness or feats that just exist as a feat tax, like dodge.

    When it comes to feats, I also want to eliminate a number of feat chains that shouldn't be feat chains - like the fighter's weapon specialization -based chain of feats that require a lot of feats for relatively little benefit given the invested resources.

    Ultimately, I don't care if weapon focus is useless to fighters, but every option should be useful to *somebody*.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruno Carvalho View Post
    PS: I'll know I'll generate a lot of hate with this confession, but I did like D&D 4th edition. It had it's flaws, of course, but one of the points that were great in it was: It was freaking HARD to create a weak character. I mean, there were stronger and weaker character options, but even if you chose the weaker options you could still be doing the character's intended role (striker, defender, controler or leader) well.
    I agree with you about 4th (I didn't hate it but I didn't like it either) but you were stuck with one of the few predesigned archetypes and stuck fulfilling an exacting role unless you expended a huge amount of resources in character generation to be sub-par at filling what even a weak character could do in another role.

    I know that supplements have allowed for more wiggle room in this regard, but the equivalent from 3.5e and pathfinder (even individually) simply blows 4e out of the water in terms of the different character concepts that can be covered. This means more trap options and a higher requirement for system mastery, but I never considered system mastery to be a cardinal sin.

    Trap options from 3.5e exists due to clashing design philosophies, power creep (an inevitable consequence of simply releasing more materials because the ratio of high peaks to low ones increases, particularly within an area of a given specialty) but mostly due to the sheer quantity of variables and different ways you can make a character. No one wants to make a trap character but I'd honestly risk it every time just to see what new and interesting combinations of abilities are effective you can come up with even a small degree of system mastery.

    My primary concern is to just avoid dead or non-options wherever I can, like designing a fighter that takes all toughness feats or somesuch.
    Currently working on Finding the Path in the Forgotten Realms as a massive conversion of the forgotten realms campaign setting (circa 3.5 edition and prior) into pathfinder 1st edition (as I've no interest in 2nd edition).

    Please, if you have an opinion, feel free to meander over to my thread in the link above and post a comment. Thank you.

  24. - Top - End - #54
    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Jul 2011
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    Default The Bard, Part 1

    Sorry for the long delay, but the Bard was DIFFICULT and I've had RL difficulties to deal with these past few months.
    Either way, the bard is finally ready with its first draft iteration below:

    Spoiler: The Bard, Part 1
    Show

    Description:
    Class Skills: Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Int), Autohypnosis (Int), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Investigate (Wis), Knowledge (Any) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Stealth (Dex), Swim (Str), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
    Unique Ability: Bardic Knowledge (Ex): Bards are well travelled and gain a wide selection of esoteric knowledge regarding a wide variety of subjects. The bard treats all skills as trained skills, allowing the bard to make skill checks with a result greater than 10 even in trained skills that normally restrict a character to DC 10 checks or lower. In addition, the bard gains a +1 bonus to all appraise, knowledge, linguistics, and use magic device checks per two bard primary abilities (minimum +2).
    Starting Feats: Armor Proficiency (Light), Armor Proficiency (Medium), Weapon Proficiency (Simple), Shield Proficiency
    Abilities:
    Bardic Magic: Bards gain the ability to cast arcane spells when they gain their 2nd primary ability and they gain an additional bardic magic level every three primary abiltiies they gain thereafter. Bards gain additional bardic magic levels for each secondary and tertiary ability they gain except their 3rd, 6th, and 9th secondary abilities and their 1st, 4th, 7th, and 10th tertiary abilities. Their spells are drawn from the bard spell list (see pages XXX and XXX). To learn or cast a spell, the bard must have a charisma score of 10 + the spell level of the bard spell the bard wishes to learn. The difficulty class of the bard's spells is equal to 10 + half the bard's total hit dice + the bard's charisma modifier.
    Like other spellcasters, the bard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level each day. This base daily allotment is given on Table 4-3: Bardic Magic Spells Known and Spells per Day. The bard additionally recieves bonus spells per day with a high charisma score (see page XXX). When the table indicates that a bard gains 0 spells per day at a given bardic magic level, then the bard can not cast their spells known of that spell level unless the bard's charisma score is high enough to grant bonus spells per day of that given spell level.
    The bard's selection of known spells is extremely limited. The bard's first bardic magic level allows for 3 0-level spells known and 1 1st level spell known of the bard's choice. Each time the bard gains a new bardic magic levell, the bard gains new spells known according to Table 4-3: Bardic Magic Spells Known and Spells per Day. Unlike spells per day, the bard's spells known is not affected by the bard's charisma score (see page XXX).
    Each time the bard gains a new bardic magic level, the bard can learn a new spell in place of one the bard already knows. In effect, the bard “loses” the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least one level lower than the highest-level bard spell the bard can cast.
    A bard may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.
    A bard need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spell’s level.

    Bardic Performance (Su): A bard can create a performance to aid their allies, harm their enemies, or both when they gain their first primary ability. The type of performance varies, based on a selected key performance skill, which determines their bardic style (see below) and how they perform their bardic performances. The bard begins play with three performances, selected from the list below, plus one additional performance for every three bard primary abilities the bard possesses. Each performance requires a minimum number of skill ranks in their key performance skill, listed in parenthesis next to the name of each performance and a number of bard primary abilities equal to half (rounded down, minimum 1) of the listed minimum ranks. There are three types of bardic performances, including performances, inspirations, and riffs which are listed below. All three types of performances affect allies or enemies out to 5 feet per rank in the bard's key performance skill (minimum 30 feet) and affect one enemy or ally per point of the bard's charisma modifier +1 per two ranks in the bard's key performance skill (minimum 4). The bard can always benefit from a bardic performance without counting against this limit. The saving throw DC of any bardic performance is 10 + half the bard's total hit dice + the bard's charisma modifier. A performance must be percieved in a manner befitting of the type of performance for it to be effective. For example, a bard whose key perform skill is singing must be heard whereas a physical comedy routine must be seen.
    All bardic performances suffer from a sort of spell failure similarly to other arcane spells. Similarly to bardic magic spells, the bard can perform in certain armors and sometimes use shields without a chance of failure depending upon the perform skill selected for bardic style (see below, page XXX). Bards that select oratory and singing never suffer spell failure for performing. Bards that select dancing or percussion can only perform in light armor without the chance of spell failure. All other performance styles can be performed without the chance of failure in light and medium armor, though only acting and comedy can be performed without the chance of failure with shields as well.
    Performances: Bardic performances are activated as a whole-turn action that costs 1 creativity point and the bard must maintain concentration each round thereafter with effects that vary with each performance to benefit the bard's allies or enemies. Concentrating to maintain a performance is a standard action each round that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Anything that can break your concentration when casting a spell (see page XXX) can break your concentration while maintaining a bardic performance except the DC to maintain a performance is 10 + the minimum required skill ranks to select that performance. Unlike concentrating on a spell, you can cast bardic magic spells or create riffs while maintaining a performance, though the bard cannot cast other spells or use magic items that would divert the bard's concentration. Bardic performances have a duration equal to one round per point of the bard's charisma modifier +3. The duration of a performance can be seamlessly extended if the bard expends an additional creativity point as an immediate action when the duration of the performance ends. Enemies or allies that leave the area of a performance's effect are still affected by a performance until the normal duration ends, though being out of a performance's area may prevent the bard from affecting that enemy or ally from extending the performance.
    • Deadly Performance (18 Ranks): Enemies must make a fortitude saving throw or suffer 1d6 points of constitution damage. A successful saving throw causes 1d6 +1 per rank in the key perform skill in points of damage instead. Three consecutive successful saving throws renders the target immune to the effects of this performance for the remainder of the duration and a +2 bonus to saves against this performance against future attempts for 24 hours. This is a body-affecting effect.
    • Dierge of Doom (9 Ranks): Enemies must make a will saving throw or gain the shaken condition for the duration of this performance. A successful saving throw causes all enemies to gain a -2 penalty to will saves against fear effects for the duration of the performance. Creatures already shaken can not gain a more severe fear condition due to this performance. This is a mind-affecting emotion effect.
    • Frightening Tune (15 Ranks): Enemies must make a will saving throw or gain the frightened condition. A successful saving throw reduces the effect to the shaken condition for the duration of this performance. Creatures already shaken can not gain a more severe fear condition due to this performance. This is a mind-affecting emotion effect.
    • Fascinate (1 Rank): Enemies must make a will saving throw or become fascinated with the bard, giving the bard all of their attention as long as they are not distracted with danger or combat. Enemies recieve a -1 penalty to their perception and initiative checks per two ranks in the bard's key perform skill (minimum -4) to notice anything else that would distract them from any source other than the bard. If the bard moves during the performance, the enemies that failed their saving throws will follow at a slow pace (up to half their base speed.) A successful saving throw grants each opponent a -2 penalty to perception checks for 1d4 rounds against all but the bard that created the performance and they otherwise act normally. This is a mind-affecting compulsion effect.
    • Song of Freedom (12 Ranks): The bard's allies gain a +3 bonus to all saving throws against all mind-affecting effects and body-affecting effects. Characters affected by this performance for more than 5 rounds gain a new saving throw against any ongoing enchantment, psychometabolism, telepathy, and transmutation effects, even if the effects were instantaneous in duration as long as the spell level of the effect is equal to half the number of ranks in the bard's key perform skill, rounded down. The bonus to saving throws improves to +4 when the bard gains 17 ranks in the key perform skill.
    • Soothing Performance (12 Ranks): The bard's allies gain fast healing 6/round. This benefit improves by 1 for every two additional skill ranks the bard gains in the key perform skill to a maximum of 10/round. For every 5 rounds in which the bard performs, the bard's allies' fatigued, minor pain, sickened, and shaken conditions are eliminated. If the bard's allies had the exhausted, frightened, nausiated conditions, and severe pain they are merely reduced to the fatigued, shaken, sickened, and minor pain conditions respectively and not reduced further by this or any further attempt to use soothing performance.


    Inspirations: Bardic inspirations are magical effects that represent the inherant inspiring nature of the bard. Inspirations are selected similarly to other performances and are activated as a standard action that doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. Once active, an inspiration does not require concentration and does not have a limited duration. Only one inspiration can be active at any given time and if a new inspiration becomes active later, the effects of an old inspiration are immediately replaced with the effects of a new inspiration.
    • Inspire Alertness (1 Rank): The bard's allies gain a +1 morale bonus to all initiative checks and perception rolls. This benefit improves by 1 per each additional 4 ranks the bard possesses in the key perform skill.
    • Inspire Competence (3 Ranks): The bard's allies gain a competence bonus to a single skill selected when the inspiration is activated equal to half the ranks the bard possesses in the key perform skill (minimum +2). The bard does not benefit from this inspiration.
    • Inspire Courage (1 Rank): The bard's allies gain a +1 morale bonus to all attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, and will saving throws against fear. This benefit improves by 1 per each additional 6 ranks the bard gains in the key perform skill.
    • Inspire Greatness (9 Ranks): The bard's allies gain a +2 morale bonus to all attack rolls and fortitude saving throws. The bard's allies don't automatically fail any attack roll or saving throw on a natural 1.
    • Inspire Recovery (12 Ranks): The bard's allies gain a +4 morale bonus to fortitude saving throws against magical death effects as well as any fortitude saving throws against the death, dying, and stable conditions. Any time the bard's allies succeed a fortitude saving throw against any of these conditions, they are cured 1 hit point per five ranks the bard possesses in they key perform skill.
    • Inspire Heroics (15 Ranks): The bard's allies gain a +3 morale bonus to defense and all saving throws. This benefit improves to +4 when the bard gains 18 ranks in the key perform skill.


    Riffs: Riffs are a magial effect that is created swiftly and with instantaneous effects. Riffs are activated as a swift action that costs 1 creativity point with a duration of instantaneous. Riffs can be performed anytime and can even be activated during a bardic performance without disrupting the bard's concentration.
    • Blast (1 Rank): The bard can select this riff only if the bard's key performance skill is keyboard, percussion, sing, string, or wind. The bard selects a single opponent within range that must succeed a reflex saving throw. A failed save results in gaining 1d6 + 1 per rank the bard possesses in the key perform skill + the bard's charisma modifier sonic damage. A successful saving throw halves the damage. This is a sonic effect.
    • Blast, Great (9 Ranks): The bard can select this riff only if the bard's key performance skill is keyboard, percussion, sing, string, or wind. As blast, except it affects the normal number of opponents within range or a number equal to the bard's charisma modifier +1 (minimum 4), except that a failed saving throw also results in gaining the deaf condition for a number of minutes equal to the bard's ranks in the key perform skill. A successful save negates this condition. This is a sonic effect.
    • Cheer Ally (3 Ranks): The bard grants a single ally +1d6 points of bonus damage to any successful attack from a charge, sneak attack, or attack of opportunity as an immediate action. This bonus damage is of the same type of damage as the successful attack. This benefit improves to +2d6 when the bard gains 9 ranks in the key perform skill and to +3d6 when the bard gains 15 ranks in the key perform skill.
    • Countersong (1 Rank): The bard can select this riff only if the bard's key performance skill is keyboard, percussion, sing, string, or wind. An enemy within range of the bard that activates an effect with the sonic or language-dependant descriptor must succeed a concentration check against 10 + the bard's key perform skill modifier or the effect fails to activate. Unlike other riffs, this ability is activated as an immediate action.
    • Distraction (1 Rank): The bard can select this riff only if the bard's key performance skill is act, comedy, dance, oratory, or ritual. An enemy within range of the bard that activates an effect with the pattern or figment descriptors must succeed a concentration check against 10 + the bard's key perform skill modifier or the effect fails to activate. Unlike other riffs, this ability is activated as an immediate action.
    • Glare (3 Ranks): The bard can select this riff only if the bard's key performance skill is act, comedy, dance, oratory, or ritual. The bard's enemies must succeed a fortitude saving throw or become blinded for 1d4 rounds. A successful saving throw results in the enemy merely gaining the dazzled condition. When the bard gains 13 ranks in the key perform skill, the blindness' duration improves to 1d4 hours +1 hour per rank in the key perform skill.
    • Motivate Urgency (6 Ranks): The Bard grants a single ally within range an additional move action that that ally must immediately use.
    • Motivate Urgency, Mass (12 Ranks): As Motivate Urgency, except that it affects the normal number of allies within the bard's range or a number equal to the bard's charisma modifier +1 (minimum 4).
    • Suggestion (6 Ranks): The bard commands a single enemy within range to perform a task that requires about only a single sentence or two worded in a manner that makes the activity sound reasonable. The suggested course of activity can continue for as much as 1 hour per rank the bard possesses in the key perform skill or until the activity has been completed. The bard can also describe conditions to set off a described activity as long as the activity can be performed within 1 hour per rank in the key perform skill since the suggestion was made. If the activity cannot be started or completed before the duration expires, then the activity is not performed. This is a mind-influencing and language dependant compulsion effect.
    • Suggestion, Mass (18 Ranks): As suggestion, except that it affects the normal number of enemies within the bard's range or a number of enemies equal to the bard's charisma modifier +1 (minimum 4).


    Bardic Style (Ex): Bards that gain their first bard primary ability must select a single perform skill that becomes the bard's key performance skill. The bard is so talented at this style of performance that it is the core of the tapestry of many of the bard's powers. The bard recieves the skill focus feat for free for the selected perform skill, which becomes the key perform skill, as well as one free skill rank for every primary ability the bard gains for that skill in addition to the normal skill ranks a bard gains for their given hit dice. The selected perform skill determines the core component of the bard's performances and bardic magic and can grant the bard a number of additional benefits that only that type of performance can bring, listed in each perform skill below.
    The listed spell component (verbal, somatic, material, or focus) is possessed by all of the bard's performances and bardic magical spells and thus can not be eliminated, such as through metamagic feats or other similar effects. A bard's focus component is always the musical instrument needed to perform the perform skill.
    The selected perform skill also grants a number of style abilities, listed with the selected perform skill. The first style ability is gained immediately with the first bard primary ability. The second, third, and forth style abilities are gained when the bard gains their 4th primary ability, 10th primary ability, and 16th primary ability, respectively.
    Spoiler: Perform (Act)
    Show
    Spell Component: -
    Style Ability (1st): Method Acting (Su): During an active performance, opponents all but ignore your presence. Any time you are targetted by an attack, including a spell that includes you as a target, that opponent must succeed a will saving throw DC 10 + half your hit dice + your charisma modifier. If the opponent fails the will save, then that opponent fails to follow through with the attack and instead performs as though you weren't the target. A successful saving throw negates the effect for the duration of the current performance but gains a +2 morale bonus to all will saves against this ability for 24 hours. Opponents are not ignorant of your presence and do not allow any special benefits should you choose to take hostile action. Affecting an opponent or opponent's allies with a harmful or otherwise detrimental effect or performance negates the benefit of this ability. This is a mind-influencing compulsion effect.
    Style Ability (2nd): Inspire Attention (4 Ranks): The bard gains inspire attention as a bonus bardic inspiration. All opponents within the bard's performance range can't help but pay attention to what the bard is doing. All hostile enemies take a -2 penalty to all attack rolls, damage rolls, concentration checks, intelligence and wisdom-based skill checks, and reflex saving throws against any opponent except the bard. This penalty increases to -3 when the bard has 9 ranks and to -4 when the bard has gained 15 ranks in the key performance skill. The bard's fascinate performance and suggestion riffs both gain a +2 bonus to their saving throw DC when this inspiration is active. This is a mind-influencing compulsion effect. The bard's enemies must be able to see or hear the bard in order to be affected.
    Style Ability (3rd): Pantomime Spell (Su): As an immediate action, the bard can expend creativity points to cast a spell exactly as another individual. The bard must be using a counterattack action and must have accurately identified the spell or spell-like ability to be pantomimed that is being cast within range of the bard's bardic performance range. When an enemy casts a spell or spell-like ability and that ability is correctly identified, the bard can expend a number of creativity points equal to the level of the spell being cast +1 in order to cast that spell and use it normally, including any metamagic effect that has been added though the bard must supply additional creativity points to equal the cost of the metamagic effect.
    Style Ability (4th): Act in Plain Sight (16 Ranks): The bard gains Act in Plain Sight as a bonus bardic performance. The bard's opponents must make a will save each round the bard maintains the performance. Opponents that fail this saving throw completely ignore the bard as though the bard were invisible to all of the opponent's senses. Opponents that succeed this saving throw three times consecutively become immune to its effects for the remainder of the duration but gain a +2 morale bonus to their will save against this ability for 24 hours. This performance negates the benefits of the bard's inspire attention inspiration. Hostile actions toward those affected immediately allow a new saving throw with a +2 bonus to their will save. This is a mind-influencing effect.

    Spoiler: Perform (Comedy)
    Show
    Spell Component: -
    Style Ability (1st): Zinger (1 Rank): The bard gains Zinger as a bonus riff. A single target within range of the bard's bardic performance must make a will saving throw. If that saving throw fails, that opponent gains the shaken condition for 1d4 rounds +1 per five ranks in the bard's key performance skill. The opponent suffers no effect on a successful saving throw. This is a mind-influencing emotion effect.
    Style Ability (2nd): Inspire Attention (4 Ranks): The bard gains inspire attention as a bonus bardic inspiration. All opponents within the bard's performance range can't help but pay attention to what the bard is doing. All hostile enemies take a -2 penalty to all attack rolls, damage rolls, concentration checks, intelligence and wisdom-based skill checks, and reflex saving throws against any opponent except the bard. This penalty increases to -3 when the bard has 12 ranks and to -4 when the bard has gained 17 ranks in the key performance skill. The bard's fascinate performance and suggestion riffs both gain a +2 bonus to their saving throw DC when this inspiration is active. This is a mind-influencing enchantment or telepathy effect. The bard's enemies must be able to see or hear the bard in order to be affected.
    Style Ability (3rd): Stand Up Routine (10 Ranks): The bard gains Stand Up Routine as a bonus bardic performance. Unlike a normal performance, the bard affects all enemies and allies within range of the bardic performance. The bard's allies gain a +2 morale bonus to all attack rolls and will saving throws. The bard's enemies must make a will saving throw initially and every 5 rounds after the performance begins. Enemies that fail this saving throw gain the shaken condition and enemies that fail their will saving throw two consecutive times also gain the confused condition for the duration of the performance or until they succeed a saving throw. Enemies that succeed any saving throw negate the confusion and shaken condition and can not again become affected by this performance for the remainder of the duration and gain a +2 morale bonus to will saves against this performance for 24 hours. This is a mind-influencing compulsion effect.
    Style Ability (4th): Stand Up Routine, Advanced (16 Ranks): The bard gains Stand Up Routine, Advanced as a bonus bardic performance. This performance provides all of the benefits of the Stand Up Routine performance except that opponents that fail the initial saving throw gain the confused condition on a failed saving throw and two consecutive failed saving throws forces each opponent to gains the dazed condition and falls prone, laughing maniacally. A successful saving throw merely renders opponents shaken, but they are still otherwise immune to the effects of this performance until it ends and they gain a +2 morale bonus to will saving throws for 24 hours against further attempts with this performance. This is a mind-influencing compulsion effect.

    Spoiler: Perform (Dance)
    Show
    Spell Component: Somatic
    Style Ability (1st): Dancing Performer: The bard's performances require a full-round action to maintain instead of the normal standard action and the bard must always move at least 10 feet and up to twice the bard's base movement each round during a performance as a part of maintaining a performance.
    Style Ability (2nd): Dervish Dance (4 Ranks): The bard gains Dervish Dance as a bonus bardic performance. The bard (and only the bard) gains a +1 morale bonus to all attack and damage rolls with a light or one-handed melee weapon that deals slashing damage and a +1 dodge bonus to defense and reflex saving throws as well as a +5 foot bonus to the bard's base speed. During this performance, the bard can make a single attack for every 10 feet the bard moves up to the normal maximum number of attacks the bard can make during a full round attack action. When the bard gains 13 ranks in the key perform skill, the morale and dodge bonuses improve to +2 and the bonus to the bard's base speed improves to +10 feet. When the bard gains 19 ranks, the bard gains an additional attack that the bard can make during this performance.
    Style Ability (3rd): Mobile Dancer: During any performance, the bard's base speed improves by 10 feet and ignores difficult terrain. In addition, any time the bard makes a reflex saving throw, the secondary effect or other lesser effect gained on a successful saving throw is negated. During a dervish dance or dance of the angels performance, a failed saving throw results in gaining the secondary effect normally gained on a successful save instead of the primary effect.
    Style Ability (4th): Dance of the Angels: During any performance, the bard can stand on any surface, including surfaces that woundn't normally bear the bard's weight as though the bard weighed nothing. In addition, the bard can dance even on uneven and vertical surfaces for as long as the bard continues to perform. If the bard isn't on a surface that can support the bard's weight by the end of the performance, the bard can spend a move action or double move action on the bard's next turn to do so, however if the bard isn't on a stable surface by then, the bard falls or trips normally given the surface the bard currently stands on.

    Spoiler: Perform (Keyboard)
    Show
    Spell Component: Focus
    Style Ability (1st): Calming Song (1 Rank): The bard gains Calming Song as a bonus performance. The bard must select a single opponent within range and that opponent must succeed a will save or all morale effects are suppressed for the duration of this performance. A successful saving throw allows the target to continue to gain their morale effects until the beginning of their next turn. The target recieves a will save each round and three consecutive saving throws negates the need for further saving throws for a single given performance. Three consecutive failed saves dispels all morale effects and three consecutive successful saves renders the target immune to this performance until the bard begins another performance but gains a +2 bonus to future attempts for 24 hours.
    Style Ability (2nd): Magical Performance: The bard can cast any spell the bard knows that has a casting time of one standard action or less while maintaining concentration on a performance, subsumed as a part of that performance. The bard otherwise expends all of the usual costs of casting that spell, such as any spell slots, creativity points, material components, and so on plus one creativity point.
    Style Ability (3rd): Jarring Riff (10 Ranks): The bard gains Jarring Riff as a bonus riff. The bard's opponents must make a fortitude saving throw. A failed save results in taking 1d10 points of sonic damage and gaining the dazed condition until after the beginning of the bard's next turn. For 1d10 + 1 per point of the bard's charisma modifier rounds afterward, the target gains a -2 penalty to all concentration checks and to initiative. A successful saving throw negates the dazed condition but the opponent still takes the sonic damage and receives the penalty to concentration and initiative, but only until the beginning of the bard's next turn.
    Style Ability (4th): Song of the Heart (16 Ranks): The bard gains Song of the Heart as a bonus performance. The bard's allies gain Improved Emotion Resistance +2, allowing the bard's allies to negate the secondary effect of any emotion effect on a successful saving throw and only gain the secondary effect on a failed saving throw against an emotion effect. The bard's allies also gain a +2 bonus to their saving throw against any emotion effect for the duration of the performance.

    Spoiler: Perform (Oratory)
    Show
    Spell Component: Verbal
    Style Ability (1st): Expert Wordsmith (Ex): You are an expert in making others understand your meaning. All language-dependant effects you create gain a +1 bonus to their saving throw DC. This bonus increases to +2 when you gain 10 ranks in your key perform skill. Furthermore, you no longer increase the DC of a charisma or charisma-based skill based check due to culture or langauge barriers.
    Style Ability (2nd): Motivational Speech (4 Ranks): The bard gains Motivational Speech as a bonus performance. During this performance, the bard's allies gain a 10 foot enhancement bonus to their base speed and a +2 morale bonus to initiative, which may change the initiative order. As a swift action, the bard can expend one creativity point to grant a single ally a bonus move action, which can be used immediately and does not count against that ally's normal actions during that particualr round. The bard can do this only once per ally but can expend multiple creativity points to benefit one ally per creativity point spent in this manner. The bard that creates this performance can not benefit from this performance. Motivational speech is an enchantment or telepahy, mind affecting language-dependant compulsion effect.
    Style Ability (3rd): Inflaming Speech (10 Ranks): The bard gains Inflaming Speech as a bonus performance. During this performance, your allies all gain a +2 morale bonus against a single opponent within range and all attacks add 2d6 points of damage against that opponent. Further, that opponent gains a -2 penalty to all attack rolls, damage rolls, and saving throws. The bonuses and penalties increase by 1 when the bard gains 14 ranks in the key perform skill and by another 1 when the bard gains 18 ranks in the key perform skill. The targetted opponent can negate the penalty upon a successful will save. Inflaming Speech is a mind affecting language-dependant emotion effect.
    Style Ability (4th): The Power of Words (Ex): You cast all magic as though you possessed the automatic still magic feat and this ability counts as that feat for all purposes. In addition, this ability allows you to affect opponents with language-dependant effects even if the target opponent or ally doesn't speak or understand your langauge though the target creature must be able to understand a language.

    Spoiler: Perform (Percussion)
    Show
    Spell Component: Somatic
    Style Ability (1st): Drummer: You can make an attack with a bludgeoning weapon, a natural attack that deals bludgeoning damage, or an unarmed strike while simultaneously maintaining concentration on a performance. However, you suffer a -2 penalty to any concentration check during any round in which you do. You can also perform a full round attack action while simultaneously maintaining concentration on a performance as long as you are attacking with a bludgeoning weapon, a natural attack that deals bludgeoning damage, or an unarmed strike. Doing this, however, causes you to suffer a -5 penalty to your concentration check during that round.
    Style Ability (2nd): Drum Beat (4 Ranks): The bard gains Drum Beat as a bonus performance. During this performance, the bard adds 1d6 points of sonic damage to all attacks with any bludgeoning weapons, natural attacks that cause bludgeoning damage, and unarmed strikes the bard uses. When the bard gains 9 ranks in the key perform skill, the bard adds 3d6 sonic damage to any successful critical hits with bludgeoning weapons. When the bard gains 14 ranks in the key perform skill, the bard can make an additional attack when making a full round action during this performance. When the bard gains 19 ranks, the bard adds 1d4 points of constitution damage with any successful critical hit.
    Style Ability (3rd): Thunderous Blow (10 Ranks): The bard gains Thunderous Blow as a bonus riff performance. Once activated, the bard charges the next attack the bard makes with intense energy until the beginning of the bard's next turn or until the bard makes a single melee attack with a bludgeoning weapon and successfully strikes an opponent. If the attack hits, that opponent and all opponents within range of the bard's performance must make a reflex saving throw against a massive blast of sound. A failed reflex saving throw results in 1d6 points of sonic damage per rank the bard possesses in the key perform skill and those opponents are knocked prone and permanently deafened. A successful reflex saving throw halves the sonic damage, the deafened condition lasts instead for a number of days equal to the bard's charisma modifier + half the number of ranks the bard possesses in the key perform skill (minimum 1), and are not knocked prone.
    Style Ability (4th): Call to Arms (16 Ranks) The bard gains Call to Arms as a bonus performance. Each round during the performance, an ally appears as though the bard had cast the Summon Planar Ally VI spell. Each creature summoned by this ability remains only until the end of the performance. When the bard has 18 ranks in the key perform skill, the bard can summon an ally as though the bard had cast Summon Planar Ally VII. When the bard has 20 ranks in the key perform skill, the bard can summon an ally as though the bard had cast Summon Planar Ally VIII.

    Spoiler: Perform (Ritual)
    Show
    Spell Component: Material
    Style Ability (1st): Ritual Caster: The bard gains the ability to use a playbook similarly to how a wizard uses a spellbook (see page XXX). The bard begins play with a playbook but it contains no spells until the bard scribes some into it. Unlike a wizard, the bard does not automatically add spells into the playbook as the bard gains abilities. The bard can add any bard spell into the playbook as per the normal rules for adding spells into a spellbook. Spells the bard acquires as spells known through the playbook can be prepared using a spell slot of equal or higher value as the spell and later cast (see page XXX). A spell prepared in this manner can not be used to spontaneously cast a bardic spell known but any open spell slots can be used normally. This ability does not allow the bard to gain spells known from outside the bard's spell list.
    Style Ability (2nd): Magical Performance (Su): The bard can cast any spell the bard knows that has a casting time of one standard action or less while maintaining concentration on a performance, subsumed as a part of that performance. The bard otherwise expends all of the usual costs of casting that spell, such as any spell slots, creativity points, material components, and so on plus one creativity point.
    Style Ability (3rd): Intense Meditation (Ex): The bard learns to perform using a much deeper and more intense meditation that requires all of the bard's attention but intensifies the power of any bardic performance. When the bard chooses to use this ability with a performance, the bard becomes flat-footed and prone and the bard can take no move actions but can still take 5 foot steps. During this time, the bard takes a -5 penalty to all concentration checks. However, the bard's performance affects double area (10 feet per point of the bard's charisma modifier, minimum 60ft) and the bard's performances affect all allies, all enemies, or both depending upon the nature of the performance. In addition, the saving throw DC of any performance during an intense meditation is increased by 1. When the bard gains 15 ranks in the key perform skill, the save DC increases by a further 1 for a total of +2. This ability does not benefit the bard's inspirations but it does benefit the bard's performances and riffs.
    Style Ability (4th): Summoning Chant (16 Ranks): The bard gains Summoning Chant as a bonus performance. Unlike most performances, the bard must enter an intense meditation in order to perform Summoning Chant. The round following the start of the performance, the bard summons an ally as though the bard had cast Summon Planar Ally VIII except that the ally persists until the end of the performance and the bard can only have one ally present through the use of this ability at any given time. When the bard gains 17 ranks in the key perform skill, the ally summoned is as though the bard had cast Summon Planar Ally IX instead of Summon Planar Ally VIII. When the bard gains 19 ranks in the key perform skill, the bard benefits as though Gate were used.

    Spoiler: Perform (Sing)
    Show
    Spell Component: Verbal
    Style Ability (1st): Voice of an Angel (Su): The bard's voice is so entrancing, that it's difficult not to be swayed by a singing bard. The saving throw DC of all emotion effects of spells and bardic performances increase by 1. When the bard's ranks in the key perform skill reach 10 ranks, then the saving throw DC bonus increases by an additional 1.
    Style Ability (2nd): Inspirational Performance (Su): The bard gains the ability to combine the benefits of a performance with a single inspiration the bard knows and benefit from both simultaneously by expending two creativity points when activating the performance. The bard can still benefit from an inspiration normally but using the same inspiration twice provides no additional benefit.
    Style Ability (3rd): Funeral Ballad (10 Ranks): The bard gains Funeral Ballad as a bonus performance. After performing continuously for one minute plus one round per hit dice of the target creature, the target creature returns to life as though raised by the raise dead spell (see page XXX). When the bard gains 14 ranks in the key perform skill, the target creature returns to life as though raised by the resurrection spell (see page XXX). When the bard gains 18 ranks in the key perform skill, the target creature returns to life as though raised by the true resurrection spell (see page XXX).
    Style Ability (4th): Grand Dramatic Performance (Su): During a performance with the expendature of two additional creativity points when activating a performance, the bard rises from the ground and projects to a grander audience. The bard gains the ability to fly at half the bard's base movement with average maneuverability. Further, the bard's performance's area of effect is doubled and all benefits to allies or enemies extends to all allies or enemies within range of the bard's performance. In addition, the bard glows, projecting bright light out to 10 feet, normal light out to 40 feet, and shadowy illumination out to 160 feet. All creatures that look directly at the bard must succeed a fortitude saving throw or become blinded and deafened for the duration of the performance plus 1d4 minutes. A successful save results in gaining the dazzled condition for the same duration. Creatures deafened by this ability are still affected by the bard's performances and magic, though creatures deafened by some other means are inured to the benefits or detrimental effects of a bard's performance.

    Spoiler: Perform (String)
    Show
    Spell Component: Focus
    Style Ability (1st): Fast Step (1 Rank): The bard gains Fast Step as a bonus performance. The bard's allies, with the tune of the fast step performance to aid their efforts, synchronize their efforts to more effectively attack foes in unison. Allies that benefit from this performance are considered to flank and gain the benefits of flanking an opponent as long as at least two allies are attacking the same foe, regardless of their position in relation to one another. In addition, the bonus to attack roles when flanking increases by +1 and all allies gain a +1 morale bonus to initiative. These benefits improve by 1 for every six ranks the bard gains in the key perform skill thereafter (so +2 with 7 ranks, +3 with 13 ranks, and +4 with 19 ranks). This is a mind-affecting effect.
    Style Ability (2nd): Inspire Teamwork (4 Ranks): The bard gains Inspire Teamwork as a bonus inspiration. The bard's allies gain a +2 morale bonus to damage rolls when flanking or attacking flat-footed opponents and any benefits from the the aid other action and with all concentration checks. This benefit improves by 1 every additional 4 ranks the bard possesses in the key perform skill to a maximum of +6 with 20 ranks. When this inspiration is active, the bard and the bard's allies can communicate through whisper or sign langauge as long as everyone is within the bard's performance area of effect as though each member could see/hear one another perfectly as though distance wasn't a factor. This benefit only applies to the conveyance of langauge.
    Style Ability (3rd): Merry Jig (10 Ranks): The bard gains Merry Jig as a bonus bardic performance. The bard's opponents must make a will saving throw. A failed will save causes all enemies to become happier, negating any previous morale or emotion effects of a level equal or lower than half the bard's ranks in the key perform skill, rounded down, and improving their attitude toward the bard and the bard's allies by one step for the duration of the performance +1 minute per rank in the bard's key perform skill + the bard's charisma modifier. A failed saving throw still causes the DC of any charisma check or charisma-based skill check to take a -2 penalty for the same duration. This is a mind-influencing emotion effect.
    Style Ability (4th): Golden Fiddle (Su): You gain a +2 bonus to your saving throws against all soul-affecting effects and any successful saving throw against a soul-affecting effect negates the secondary effect though you still suffer the primary effect on a failed saving throw. During a performance, the bonus to saving throws improves to +4 and even a failed saving throw results in the secondary effect instead of the primary effect.

    Spoiler: Perform (Wind)
    Show
    Spell Component: Focus
    Style Ability (1st): Sleepy Performance (1 Rank): The bard gains Sleepy Performance as a bonus bardic performance. Enemies within range must succeed a will save initially when the performance is first activated and every five rounds thereafter. Each time a saving throw is failed, the target gains the fatigued condition. If the saving throw is failed twice consecutively, the targets gains the exhausted condition. If the saving throw is failed three consecutive times, the targets fall asleep and gain the sleep condition. These conditions persist for the duration of the performance and for 1d4 rounds thereafter except the sleep condition, which persists normally per the rules of that condition (see page XXX). Creatures that are fatigued or exhausted do not become more severely fatigued or exhausted due to the effects of this performance even if it is caused by sleep deprivation (see page XXX). Characters with sleep deprivation gain a -2 penalty to their will saves against this performance if they are already fatigued due to lack of sleep and a -6 penalty to their will saves against this performance if exhausted. Enemies that succeed their will saving throw negate the effects of this performance for its remaining duration and gain a +2 bonus to their saving throw against this performance and all future attempts to use this performance for 24 hours. This is a mind-affecting emotion effect.
    Style Ability (2nd): Lash (4 Ranks): The bard gains Lash as a bonus bardic performance riff. A single enemy within range of the bard must succeed a fortitude saving throw or take 1d6 +1 per two ranks in the key perform skill points of slashing damage and gain the minor pain condition. A successful saving throw negates the condition and halves the damage. When the bard gains 12 ranks in the key perform skill, the damage improves to 1d6 + 1 per rank in the key perform skill and the condition improves to the severe pain condition.
    Style Ability (3rd): Merry Jig (10 Ranks): The bard gains Merry Jig as a bonus bardic performance. The bard's opponents must make a will saving throw. A failed will save causes all enemies to become happier, negating any previous morale or emotion effects of a level equal or lower than half the bard's ranks in the key perform skill, rounded down, and improving their attitude toward the bard and the bard's allies by one step (see page XXX) for the duration of the performance +1 minute per rank in the bard's key perform skill + the bard's charisma modifier. A failed saving throw still causes the DC of any charisma check or charisma-based skill check to take a -2 penalty for the same duration. This will not improve a target's attitude to better than “friendly” and once the effect of this performance wears off, the target may realize that they were magically coerced. This is a mind-influencing emotion effect.
    Style Ability (4th): Mind Worm (16 Ranks): The bard gains Mind Worm as a bonus bardic performance. The bard's opponents must make a will save or become dominated (see page XXX) for the duration of the performance as the spell dominate person (see page XXX) except the bard can affect any mortal creature (see page XXX). A successful saving throw still causes the opponent to become staggered for 1d4 rounds but with a +2 bonus to all will saving throws against this performance any any similar to it for 24 hours. A target can only be affected once during any given performance. This is a mind-affecting compulsion effect.
    Last edited by Neoxenok; 2015-10-27 at 02:09 AM.
    Currently working on Finding the Path in the Forgotten Realms as a massive conversion of the forgotten realms campaign setting (circa 3.5 edition and prior) into pathfinder 1st edition (as I've no interest in 2nd edition).

    Please, if you have an opinion, feel free to meander over to my thread in the link above and post a comment. Thank you.

  25. - Top - End - #55
    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default The Bard, Part 2: Revenge of Tables

    Spoiler: The Bard, Part 2
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    Bardic Weapons Training: Bards that gain their first primary ability treat longswords, rapiers, saps, shortswords, shortbows, and whips as simple weapons. Since bards possess proficiency in simple weapons, bards are therefore proficient in their use as though they were simple weapons.

    Creativity Pool (Su): Bards gain a magic point pool with their first primary ability that can be used with abilities that require creativity or magic points. The bard gains a number of creativity points equal to half the bard's total hit dice + the bard's charisma modifier (minimum 0).

    Jack-of-all-Traits (Su): The bard can use a combination of magic and their vast esoteric knowledge to perform a task they aren't otherwise knowledgeable with when they gain their 3rd secondary ability. By expending a creativity point as a free action, the bard can gain a 1d6 bonus to any one skill check performed within the next round. This bonus does not stack with any skill ranks the bard possesses nor does it stack with any competence bonuses the bard possesses to the selected skill. When the bard gains their 6th secondary ability, this benefit improves to 2d6 and can now be added to the bard's next attack roll, reflex saving throw, skill check, or initiative check as an immediate action. When the bard gains their 9th secondary ability, this benefit improves to 3d6.

    Lore Mastery (Ex): When the bard gains their 7th primary ability, they can select one skill among their bardic lore skills (appraise, any one knowledge skill, linguistics, and use magic device) and the bard can always take 10 on that skill, even when under duress. Every six primary abilities thereafter (13th and 19th), the bard can select another skill among the bardic knowledge skills and gain the same benefit with that skill.

    Versatile Performance: A bard that gains their 1st secondary ability becomes so capable at their key performance, that it begins to take on true-to-life applications. Bards can use their key perform skill in place of the skills noted below, so, for example, a bard can use their perform (act) skill in place of any bluff or disguise check.
    The perform skills and their associated skills are as follows:
    • Perform (Act): Bluff, Disguise
    • Perform (Comedy): Diplomacy, Intimidate
    • Perform (Dance): Acrobatics, Fly
    • Perform (Keyboard): Diplomacy, Sense Motive
    • Perform (Oratory): Diplomacy, Intimidate
    • Perform (Percussion): Acrobatics, Intimidate
    • Perform (Ritual): Endurance, Use Magic Device
    • Perform (Sing): Autohypnosis, Diplomacy
    • Perform (String): Diplomacy, Handle Animal
    • Perform (Wind): Autohypnosis, Handle Animal


    Well-Versed (Ex): A bard that gains their first tertiary ability becomes resistant to the influence of other bardic performances and to sonic and language-dependent effects in general. The bard gains a +2 bonus to all saving throws against the bardic performances of others as well as all sonic and language-dependent effects. A bard with 4 tertiary abilities that successfully saves against any of those effects negates the secondary effect upon a successful saving throw. A bard with 7 tertiary abilities suffers the secondary effect on a failed saving throw and no effect upon a successful saving throw. A bard with 10 tertiary abilities becomes fully immune to these effects.


    Spoiler: The Bard (Ability Table)
    Show

    Abilities Primary Abilities Secondary Abilities Tertiary Abilities
    1 Bardic Performance (3), Bardic Style, Bardic Weapons Training, Creativity Pool Bardic Magic (+1 Level), Versatile Performance Well-Versed (+2 Saves)
    2 Bardic Magic (+1 Level) Bardic Magic (+1 Level) Bardic Magic (+1 Level)
    3 Bardic Performance (4) Jack-of-all-Traits (1d6) Bardic Magic (+1 Level)
    4 Style Ability (2nd) Bardic Magic (+1 Level) Well-Versed (Resistance)
    5 Bardic Magic (+1 Level) Bardic Magic (+1 Level) Bardic Magic (+1 Level)
    6 Bardic Performance (5) Jack-of-all-Traits (2d6) Bardic Magic (+1 Level)
    7 Lore Mastery (1) Bardic Magic (+1 Level) Well-Versed (Improved)
    8 Bardic Magic (+1 Level) Bardic Magic (+1 Level) Bardic Magic (+1 Level)
    9 Bardic Performance (6) Jack-of-all-Traits (3d6) Bardic Magic (+1 Level)
    10 Style Ability (3rd) Bardic Magic (+1 Level) Well-Versed (Immunity)
    11 Bardic Magic (+1 Level) X X
    12 Bardic Performance (7) X X
    13 Lore Mastery (2) X X
    14 Bardic Magic (+1 Level) X X
    15 Bardic Performance (8) X X
    16 Style Ability (4th) X X
    17 Bardic Magic (+1 Level) X X
    18 Bardic Performance (9) X X
    19 Lore Mastery (3) X X
    20 Bardic Magic (+1 Level) X X



    When I have time, I'll add another table for spells/day and spells known, but progression is as a sorcerer with -1 spell known per spell level (minimum 1) and -3 spells/day per spell level, basically and cantrips only go up to 6 known instead of 8.
    When I can, I'll begin work on the cleric, which will be a charisma-based spontaneous caster likely similar to dragonlance's mystic.
    Last edited by Neoxenok; 2015-10-27 at 02:31 AM.
    Currently working on Finding the Path in the Forgotten Realms as a massive conversion of the forgotten realms campaign setting (circa 3.5 edition and prior) into pathfinder 1st edition (as I've no interest in 2nd edition).

    Please, if you have an opinion, feel free to meander over to my thread in the link above and post a comment. Thank you.

  26. - Top - End - #56
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    Default Re: A Whole New Era (PEACH)

    Update:

    Been busy with life problems but most of the way done with the cleric.
    I'm having a difficult time coming up with an appropriate unique ability and I'm still trudging my way through making domain powers as well as how I'll be handling the relationship between worshipers and the worshipped.

    Right now, I just have "Druidism" and "the Paladin's Oath" as selectable things in which to get cleric powers from and I want to come up with a number of generic philosophies a cleric could follow, which in a campaign setting can be substituted for gods (for those clerics that choose to follow their own philosophy instead of one of the gods) or gods can be substituted by a philosophy, such is the case in forgotten realms where clerics must worship a god.

    I have to say I'm liking the idea of a charisma-based cleric more and more and the introduction of the mystic with the cleric covering the evangelizing and spreading the faith part of a church whereas mystics are the more occidental monk types that are experts with religious knowledge and lore.

    Once the cleric is complete, I'll be able to begin work on the fighter, the most revised and fiddled-with class in D&D.
    Currently working on Finding the Path in the Forgotten Realms as a massive conversion of the forgotten realms campaign setting (circa 3.5 edition and prior) into pathfinder 1st edition (as I've no interest in 2nd edition).

    Please, if you have an opinion, feel free to meander over to my thread in the link above and post a comment. Thank you.

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