Stupid House Rules

[Segev]

Now you're creating a difference based on Capitalization.

What is the difference between a "celestial elf" and a "Celestial Elf"? In reading that sentence, without any outside context, the only difference is the capitalization.

In this sentence: "He is a Celestial Elf and his wife is an Elf so his son is a Half-Celestial Elf."; everything makes perfect, logical sense. When you take that sentence and apply the D&D templates for the terms Celestial & Half-Celestial, it does not make sense.

I deliberately used the capitalization to help differentiate, yes, but to claim that I'm MAKING the distinction based on the capitalization is a reversal of cause and effect.

Put all the "c"s in my post as lower-case (save where sentence beginnings would make them capitalized anyway), and the meaning and truth of my post is unchanged. The distinction is between the noun "celestial" and the adjective "celestial." They are related, but distinct, words. "A grave error" and "a grave in which you are buried" are also examples of the same phoneme and letter-construct being used as different words, one of which is an adjective and the other a noun.

A celestial creature is not a celestial, any more than a grave error is an error in which one inters a corpse.

If you want to say that, genetically, the half-breed offspring would have greater potential, you are correct. However, the base results (applying both templates to a 1 HD being) do not show that.

I don't think anybody is making that claim.

You are all arguing from the stance of "these words are defined in this way in D&D". I am arguing from the point of "without the arbitrary definitions supplied by D&D, the terms should indicate that a Celestial is greater than a Half-Celestial".

Even that doesn't actually hold true, though it is the intent. A celestial is meant to be greater in power than its half-celestial offspring. Again, though, a celestial creature is NOT a celestial. It's a creature to which the adjective "celestial" is applied.

(I say that it still doesn't work out because I think you can find celestials that are weaker than half-celestials; lantern archons, for instance, are arguably weaker than a half-celestial human. Except, perhaps, for the whole greater teleport at will thing.)

If you replace the term Half-Celestial with Half-Angel (Angel being a creature type in D&D), then it makes sense, since Angels are more powerful than "Half-Angels".

That is more or less what's being done, except that not all potential parents for a half-celestial are of the Angel type. Archons are not Angels, but Archons can be the parents of half-celestials.

[Flickerdart]

Rename the Celestial Creature template to Celestialish Creature, problem solved.

[Dagroth]

I deliberately used the capitalization to help differentiate, yes, but to claim that I'm MAKING the distinction based on the capitalization is a reversal of cause and effect.

Put all the "c"s in my post as lower-case (save where sentence beginnings would make them capitalized anyway), and the meaning and truth of my post is unchanged. The distinction is between the noun "celestial" and the adjective "celestial." They are related, but distinct, words. "A grave error" and "a grave in which you are buried" are also examples of the same phoneme and letter-construct being used as different words, one of which is an adjective and the other a noun.

A celestial creature is not a celestial, any more than a grave error is an error in which one inters a corpse.

I don't think anybody is making that claim.

Even that doesn't actually hold true, though it is the intent. A celestial is meant to be greater in power than its half-celestial offspring. Again, though, a celestial creature is NOT a celestial. It's a creature to which the adjective "celestial" is applied.

(I say that it still doesn't work out because I think you can find celestials that are weaker than half-celestials; lantern archons, for instance, are arguably weaker than a half-celestial human. Except, perhaps, for the whole greater teleport at will thing.)

That is more or less what's being done, except that not all potential parents for a half-celestial are of the Angel type. Archons are not Angels, but Archons can be the parents of half-celestials.

Again, you're missing my point, so I'll come at it from another angle.

A Celestial is a being from one of the Outer, Good-Aligned Planes. A Celestial Elf is an Elf from one of the Outer, Good-Aligned Planes. It is Not an Elf who has lived on one of said planes for a long time and developed those traits because Celestial is not an "acquired" template. Therefore, there is no semantic difference from a Celestial who is an Elf and a Celestial Elf. However, there is a game mechanic difference.

I'm not saying there has to be. I'm saying that linguistically there should not be.

The game (and you) says that the offspring of a Celestial who is an Elf and a regular Elf is a Half-Celestial Elf.

So what is the offspring of a Celestial Elf and a regular Elf? If, game-mechanic wise, it's a Half-Celestial Elf... then why is the offspring so much more powerful than the protegenor?

[Flickerdart]

The game (and you) says that the offspring of a Celestial who is an Elf and a regular Elf is a Half-Celestial Elf.

So what is the offspring of a Celestial Elf and a regular Elf? If, game-mechanic wise, it's a Half-Celestial Elf... then why is the offspring so much more powerful than the protegenor?

No, no, no.

The offspring of a Celestial Elf and an elf is probably a Celestial Elf, or maybe a regular elf.

The offspring of a planetar and an elf is a Half-Celestial Elf.

[Celestia]

Rename the Celestial Creature template to Celestialish Creature, problem solved.

That is an abomination of language, and I want to cry.

[Segev]

Again, you're missing my point, so I'll come at it from another angle.

Okay.

A Celestial is a being from one of the Outer, Good-Aligned Planes.

True.

A Celestial Elf is an Elf from one of the Outer, Good-Aligned Planes.

True.

It is Not an Elf who has lived on one of said planes for a long time and developed those traits because Celestial is not an "acquired" template.

True.

Therefore, there is no semantic difference from a Celestial who is an Elf and a Celestial Elf. However, there is a game mechanic difference.

And there's the logical leap that makes your conclusion wrong.

A "celestial elf" is not "a celestial."

Let me reframe what I've quoted you as saying to illustrate the fallacy:

"A crow is a bird with predominantly black feathers, i.e. a blackbird."

"A raven is a bird with predominantly black feathers, i.e. a blackbird."

"Therefore, there is no semantic difference from a crow who is raven and a raven."

The conclusion is obviously flawed when framed like this. To put it as clearly as I can, there is no such thing as "a celestial who is an elf," any more than there is "a crow who is a raven" nor "an orc who is an elf."

"A celestial" is a specific category of creature. Celestial elves are not part of that category. Both celestials and celestial elves are creatures from upper, good-aligned planes, but not all creatures from upper, good-aligned planes are celestials.

(Just as both crows and ravens are blackbirds, but not all blackbirds are crows.)

The game (and you) says that the offspring of a Celestial who is an Elf and a regular Elf is a Half-Celestial Elf.

As I hope is now clear, that is not what I'm saying, nor (I believe) what the game mechanics are saying. The offspring of a celestial elf and a regular elf would probably be either a celestial elf or a regular elf, depending on the DM's whim and sense of how much celestial influence remains.

So what is the offspring of a Celestial Elf and a regular Elf? If, game-mechanic wise, it's a Half-Celestial Elf... then why is the offspring so much more powerful than the protegenor?

Because the offspring of a celestial elf and a regular elf is not a half-celestial, because the kid doesn't have a celestial for a parent.

[Dagroth]

No, no, no.

The offspring of a Celestial Elf and an elf is probably a Celestial Elf, or maybe a regular elf.

The offspring of a planetar and an elf is a Half-Celestial Elf.

What I am saying is that you are correct, according to game rules.

What I am also saying is that, linguistically, using the exact same word for two entirely different things leads to linguistic confusing.

All oranges are not orange and not all orange things are oranges.

By defining the child of a Planetar (a type of Celestial) as being fundamentally different from (and severely more powerful than) the child of a theoretical 30th level Celestial Elf makes the English Language cry.

Replacing the terms "Celestial" and "Fiendish" for the templates with the term "Planar (Good)" or "Planar (Evil)" fits both the terminology and the linguistic usage.

Then you can say a Planetar is a Celestial being as well as a Planar (Good) being, while an Elf from the Seven Heavens is only a Planar (Good) being.

[Flickerdart]

What I am saying is that you are correct, according to game rules.

What I am also saying is that, linguistically, using the exact same word for two entirely different things leads to linguistic confusing.

Yes. We know.

I have already provided the solution - call them Celestialish and it will be clear what you mean. I don't see what further use there is to argue this point.

[Dagroth]

Yes. We know.

I have already provided the solution - call them Celestialish and it will be clear what you mean. I don't see what further use there is to argue this point.

All I'm saying is I made an off-hand comment (that you have agreed is true) and then defended said comment from a barrage of "you're wrong"s.

[Flickerdart]

All I'm saying is I made an off-hand comment (that you have agreed is true) and then defended said comment from a barrage of "you're wrong"s.

Then let's agree to let it go and get this thread back on track.

[Firechanter]

Here's a stupid houserule for you:

"Clerics and Paladins are obliged to use their deity's Favoured Weapon."

-- uttered by the Co-GM of a game I used to play in. I was going to bring in a Paladin of Abadar as a replacement for my Cleric of Erastil, and he actually wanted to shoehorn me into fighting with a crossbow. A crossbow!
I was prepared to duke it out with him if he'd turned out to be serious about enforcing it, but I never found out, because the entire game collapsed due to scheduling issues. Dodged a bolt, you might say.

[Segev]

Here's a stupid houserule for you:

"Clerics and Paladins are obliged to use their deity's Favoured Weapon."

-- uttered by the Co-GM of a game I used to play in. I was going to bring in a Paladin of Abadar as a replacement for my Cleric of Erastil, and he actually wanted to shoehorn me into fighting with a crossbow. A crossbow!
I was prepared to duke it out with him if he'd turned out to be serious about enforcing it, but I never found out, because the entire game collapsed due to scheduling issues. Dodged a bolt, you might say.

Ironically - and not to justify being REQUIRED to do this, mind - I played a paladin who wielded light crossbows. Dual-wielded, even, using TWF and rapid shot together, and having a bunch of loaded crossbows on hand that he drew with quick draw. He just dropped the empty ones; they were all on leather straps hooked to the inside of his heavy cloak. He wasn't stealthy, but he was a fun play on Derringer Meryl's fighting style.

[Bohandas]

Here's a stupid houserule for you:

"Clerics and Paladins are obliged to use their deity's Favoured Weapon."

-- uttered by the Co-GM of a game I used to play in. I was going to bring in a Paladin of Abadar as a replacement for my Cleric of Erastil, and he actually wanted to shoehorn me into fighting with a crossbow. A crossbow!
I was prepared to duke it out with him if he'd turned out to be serious about enforcing it, but I never found out, because the entire game collapsed due to scheduling issues. Dodged a bolt, you might say.

This could work if 1.) they gained free proficiency (or focus if they'd have proficiency anyway due to it being on the class's base proficiency list or them taking the war domain) and 2.) they weren't required to use it exclusively, just to always carry it.

[Calthropstu]

We already have a term for "something touched by thing"... called "planetouched". Asimaar are not "Celestial", they're "Planetouched".

Show us on the doll where the bad plane touched you...

[Bohandas]

Some bad houserules for a 4e game:

1. You must know the alphabet of your fantasy languages. Yes, even the ones without any official alphabet produced. Your expected to be able to recognize characters from your character's languages on sight, without reference, and be able to read them, without reference. And the translated message may not be in English.
2. You must RP activation words for magical items. Most magical items are activated using a language besides Common. Yes, you have to speak in Elvish to activate your Boots of Elvenkind. (this got REALLY fun when we found some Polygot gems, since the activation words were in the languages the Gem's granted )
3. You must RP your powers every time you use them. Every time.

Spoiler

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Works for every power and item. Yes, even that one.

Oh another player tried this. The GM recognized what he was doing instantly, shut it down. He didn't get any loot that session for "not taking the game seriously". Theres a reason why we swapped to a new campaign, with a new GM. And a new system. Which she finds particularly boring. Not like telling your players to stop playing their character's right isn't boring. Nope, not at all.

This reminds me, I actually made up a table of random mystic gibberish from various sources awhile back for randomly generating verbal components

Spoiler

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01.) Ashonai.
02.) Ebiris.
03.) 0Urshoring.
04.) Kvanti.
05.) Pythan.
06.) N'gurad.
07.) Feringomalee

08.) Azerath
09.) Metrion
10.) Zinthos

11.) Tatra
12.) amistrobin
13.) azarta,
14.) tatis
15.) manor
16.) manziz
17.) hounaz,
18.) ansobar
19.) saman
20.) darobza
21.) dahir
22.) saika
23.) danz
24.) deroza,
25.) kandar

26.) Kunda.
27.) Astratta.
28.) Montosse.
29.) Canda

30.) klaatu
31.) barata
32.) nikto

33.) N'gai
34.) n'gha
35.) 'ghaa,
36.) bugg-shoggog,
37.) y'hah

38.) Abra
39.) kadabra
40.) alakazam
41.) Aajaye
42.) Shemhamforash
43.) hocus
44.) pocus

45.) mecca
46.) lecca
47.) hi,
48.) hiney
49.) ho

50.) sim
51.) sala
52.) bim

52.) Bibbidi
53.) Bobbidi
54.) Boo

55.) Shazam

56.) Cei-u

57.) Yu
58.) Mo
59.) Gui
60.) Guay
61.) Fai
62.) Di
63.) Zao

64.) FUs
65.) Ro
66.) Da

67.) Feim
68.) Zii
69.) Gron

70.) Joor
71.) Zah
72.) Frul

73.) Wuld
74.) Nah
75.) Kest

76.) Nahl
77.) Dal
78.) Vus

79.) Slen
80.) Tiid
81.) Vo

82.) Lok
83.) Vah
84.) Koor

85.) Hun
86.) Kaal
87.) Zor

88.) Od
89.) Ah
90.) Viing

91.) Laas
92.) Yah
93.) Nir

94.) Ph
95.) Nglui
96.) Mglwnafh
97.) Wgah
98.) nagl

99.) Ni
100) Peng
101) Nee-wom

(somatic components could in turn be adapted from this)

[Calthropstu]

(somatic components could in turn be adapted from this)

That is awesome, I love it. Combined with the verbal components and add some random material components (use some M&Ms or something they must eat every time they cast a spell) and it could become something fun to try... albeit only for a little while.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Here's a stupid houserule for you:

"Clerics and Paladins are obliged to use their deity's Favoured Weapon."

-- uttered by the Co-GM of a game I used to play in. I was going to bring in a Paladin of Abadar as a replacement for my Cleric of Erastil, and he actually wanted to shoehorn me into fighting with a crossbow. A crossbow!
I was prepared to duke it out with him if he'd turned out to be serious about enforcing it, but I never found out, because the entire game collapsed due to scheduling issues. Dodged a bolt, you might say.

What would happen if you were a cleric of Tiamat? Her favored weapon is a claw.

[The Glyphstone]

What would happen if you were a cleric of Tiamat? Her favored weapon is a claw.

I guess in this context, Tiamat would only accept clerics who were dragons/draconic-descended in some fashion, thus having natural claw attacks?

[Draconium]

What would happen if you were a cleric of Tiamat? Her favored weapon is a claw.

Quick question - which book is this information from? The Draconomicon has her favored weapon listed as Heavy Pick (Bite).

Interestingly, all the draconic deities in that section are listed as having a favored weapon like that - a humanoid weapon, followed by the natural attack it is supposed to represent for them, which actually neatly avoids the problem you're curious about.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Quick question - which book is this information from? The Draconomicon has her favored weapon listed as Heavy Pick (Bite).

I was using Deities and Demigods, but Draconmicon should take precedence due to being 3.5 rather than 3rd.