Worldbuilding Talk Thread

[ShadowFireLance]

Assuming your setting has immortal, or just far longer lived mortals, like Elves or Dwarves, why don't they rule the world/have absurdly good technology?
To make this question slightly harder, you can't use the 'because they're lazy' argument.

[IZ42]

Assuming your setting has immortal, or just far longer lived mortals, like Elves or Dwarves, why don't they rule the world/have absurdly good technology?
To make this question slightly harder, you can't use the 'because they're lazy' argument.

In most D&D worlds, Elves and Dwarves don't rule the world because they don't er... mate as often, meaning there are far less of them than there are members of shorter lived and more promiscuous species (cough cough humans cough). You could also use the argument that their politics get in the way, as a council of people who live for hundreds of years could essentially take fifty years, or even longer in some cases to decide and agree on things. You could also have the nasty little bugger called tradition getting in the way.

[BladeofObliviom]

Assuming your setting has immortal, or just far longer lived mortals, like Elves or Dwarves, why don't they rule the world/have absurdly good technology?
To make this question slightly harder, you can't use the 'because they're lazy' argument.

This kind of thing is more or less why, when I write settings, I cut down on those ridiculous ages for Elves and Dwarves in particular. They're still long-lived, but it's more to the tune of Dwarves living for 130-150 years rather than DnD's 400-ish.

Additionally, the Dwarves (in the one setting I have that isn't human-only) were badly set back by an issue of their own biology: Through some unknown mechanism, Dwarven Sorcerers tend to degenerate horribly, going utterly mad and becoming emaciated, pale shadows of their former selves, consumed by magic. A magical event that resulted in thousands of sorcerers being born worldwide brought the Dwarven civilization to its knees with a tide of powerful, insane magicians destroying/overrunning almost all of their major cities.

The remaining Dwarves tend to be paranoid about magic for this reason, and while Wizards are not directly vulnerable in the same way that Dwarves with inborn talent are, they're still looked upon with suspicion and usually become social outcasts. (Also because, since this is meant for PF rules, the offspring of Wizards are more likely to be Sorcerers, hence the Arcane Bloodline.)

That said, in spite of the cultural stigma against magic and the reduced lifespans, the Dwarves in my setting actually have had a significant effect on technology. Most notably, the Citadel Zel, the place where the largest number of surviving sane dwarves were concentrated after the awakening, forged an alliance with the (Human) Free City of Avan, forming a commonwealth called Avanzel. Dwarven Industry and Innovation combined with the trade wealth of Avan has made Avanzel significantly more technologically advanced than its neighbors. (Avan and Zel are technologically advanced enough that they use the Commonplace Guns rule instead of the Emerging Guns rule, and Avanzel's armies usually use the Trench Fighter archetype.)




As for Elves, I take a somewhat different approach: They mature more slowly than humans, but while they will eventually take on an elderly appearance, their bodies don't degrade in the same way that human bodies do. They can be slain, but they don't die of organ failure and such unless there's some outside factor involved. That said, they're just as vulnerable to mental senescence as humans are and most suffer from serious dementia before they hit 200. Sadly, unless someone is taking care of them, they usually are unable to care for themselves after this point and their bodies soon waste away to starvation. So while Elves do have the potential to do more in their lives than humans do if they don't mentally succumb to age, it's uncommon.

Also, as usual, Elven Fertility is terrible and they tend to produce fewer offspring than humans even over the course of a long life. (And even if they tried to take over the world, they'd probably lose so many people doing so that they'd die out even if they won.)

[Jendekit]

I one of my settings, they did. The early empires were all ruled by elves, but the politicking and long lasting grudges led to them collapsing due to infighting. Once they fell, human nations were up and established far faster than the elves could collectively react.

[VoxRationis]

Assuming your setting has immortal, or just far longer lived mortals, like Elves or Dwarves, why don't they rule the world/have absurdly good technology?
To make this question slightly harder, you can't use the 'because they're lazy' argument.

Well, in my current setting, this question can be answered regarding the elves with several reasons:
Firstly, they've been isolationist for a very long time (although I suppose that could be called "lazy");

Secondly, the elves, though immortal, have no afterlife, and so are individually disinclined to risk their lives—thus, though they are individually better warriors than most human fighters, they are far worse soldiers, incapable of pressing on in spite of casualties or holding a line against a charge;

Thirdly, the elves have had very old grudges against one another over numerous affairs, a matter not helped by the fact that a conflict 400 years prior might well be remembered personally by the leaders of each elven realm, and only recent existential threats to their culture and way of life have led them to put aside these differences.

The dwarves have their own set of reasons: a low birth rate; a civilization built of city-states built around highly limited productive environments, which enact harsh limits on expansion and growth; and superb natural and artificial defenses, limiting the incentive for conquest or military invention (though their technology is still somewhat beyond that of the setting at large).

In both cases, however, recent events have changed the practicality of this approach, and both races are looking outwards, sure that only through domination of the world at large will their futures be secure.

[Stellar_Magic]

My view with that is that many of the static long lived species have extremely low birth-rates compared to the shorter lived races. Say elves barely maintain their population with a fertility rate of 2-3 births per woman (there could be a plethora of causes for low fertility outside of biological ones) and it takes 115 years for them to reach sexual maturity... while humans have at least a fertility rate of 4-5 births per woman and reach sexual maturity in 16 years. Humans would so outnumber their elvish neighbors after a few years that sheer weight of numbers would overwhelm the elves in any conflict.

[Tzi]

Assuming your setting has immortal, or just far longer lived mortals, like Elves or Dwarves, why don't they rule the world/have absurdly good technology?
To make this question slightly harder, you can't use the 'because they're lazy' argument.

In my setting, Elves maintained their longer lives via Technology and Alchemy. Think of it like this, we humans extend our lives by a lot, they elves are just better at it, or were. The age of Elven super lives is over for most. Even with the technology they cannot necessarily prolong fertility. Elves realized that even with prolonged fertility there were some degenerative effects to children conceived on borrowed time. Mutated and broken creatures they often became.

Elves did conquer the world(s) during their age of technical supremacy but the long term effects of it were not ideal. Degenerate mutations, the cost of extended lives, and the fact that an older elf is a much weaker elf became problems. The other issue was their extended lives, while never hurting their minds did take a toll on the bodies. The Drow of Tynerak even resorted often to harvesting blood from others. Particularly native Orcs whose blood was hearty and strong in their eyes.

After the decline and isolation much of the technology was either lost or abandoned. Living to be 1000 seemed far to expensive and negative. A common religious belief developed that to grow so old that one needs alchemy and regular blood transfusions was probably bad. Thus Elves prefer natural deaths. Still they can make it to 300 with good health and a proper diet.

[BootStrapTommy]

In my campaign humans are longer lived (~120 years), but High Elves are actually immortal. And they developed Nazi-like racial theories and are just generally complete bastards. But they just don't possess the numbers to match up the other races.

I've got writers block on names so hard right now it is frustrating...

[IZ42]

I generally find stealingacquiring inspiration from other cultures is a good place to start with names. Decide which culture in the world best fits your current concept, and go and use a famous name or just translate what the thing is into that language and bastardize it to get your needed name. You can even just make up a word that sounds similar to something that would be in that language. For instance, the elves in my world are vaguely Central American themed, so maybe one of their cities would be something based on Tenochtitlan, or the name of one of the Aztec gods.

[VoxRationis]

I've got writers block on names so hard right now it is frustrating...

I'm a fan of developing a consistent phonology for your fictional cultures. What vowels do they commonly use? What consonants? How do they fit the two together (i.e., do they have a lot of consonant clusters, or do they use CV syllables exclusively, or are they somewhere in between)? Do they have any sounds not native to English (like "ch" in "loch")? Once you do this, making names is mostly a matter of putting pieces together.

[redwizard007]

I'm a fan of developing a consistent phonology for your fictional cultures. What vowels do they commonly use? What consonants? How do they fit the two together (i.e., do they have a lot of consonant clusters, or do they use CV syllables exclusively, or are they somewhere in between)? Do they have any sounds not native to English (like "ch" in "loch")? Once you do this, making names is mostly a matter of putting pieces together.

I saw a link to a "how to build a language" article or thread somewhere in the playground that fit almost exactly with this tactic. Can't find it at the moment though. Anyone remember seeing that?

[VoxRationis]

I vaguely remember seeing that title. I wasn't advocating creating a whole language for each culture—that's a bit much, even for a linguistics nerd like me. But a phonology helps considerably.

[BootStrapTommy]

I vaguely remember seeing that title. I wasn't advocating creating a whole language for each culture—that's a bit much, even for a linguistics nerd like me. But a phonology helps considerably.

Building a language has been something of a goal of mine for a long time. I'm a student of Tolkien in that regard.

[Milo v3]

I suck when it comes to language so I just use what the words would mean rather than get what the words would mean and translate it.

[Yora]

I've got writers block on names so hard right now it is frustrating...

I had to come up with about 100 names at once (or rather had to replace all the placeholder names that have accumulated over the years), and the discovery I made is that you'll never come up with a great name for anything. What is much more easier is to come up with somewhat acceptible, though not very good sounding and interesting names. Take those. After using them for a week or two they start to look pretty good.

[BootStrapTommy]

I had to come up with about 100 names at once (or rather had to replace all the placeholder names that have accumulated over the years), and the discovery I made is that you'll never come up with a great name for anything. What is much more easier is to come up with somewhat acceptible, though not very good sounding and interesting names. Take those. After using them for a week or two they start to look pretty good.

Kinda just bit the bullet and did that. Sure the place now seems oddly Aztec flavored for no reason, but the names roll off the tongue and that is all I ask for.

[IZ42]

Kinda just bit the bullet and did that. Sure the place now seems oddly Aztec flavored for no reason, but the names roll off the tongue and that is all I ask for.

My bad, I guess?

[BootStrapTommy]

My bad, I guess?

I uses the "translate words to the foreign equivalent" method. Despite using Romance languages, everything turned out inexplicably Aztec sounding!

[IZ42]

I uses the "translate words to the foreign equivalent" method. Despite using Romance languages, everything turned out inexplicably Aztec sounding!

Hehehe. Which romance language did you use primarily?

[BootStrapTommy]

Hehehe. Which romance language did you use primarily?

Mostly Catalan and Galician. One was Maltese, which I suppose is more of a Semitic language.

[Tzi]

So my campaign world kicked off with a bang.

I am wondering though, do other DM's/worldbuilders farm out some work to players/friends? What I mean is I let my would be players do a lot of lore writing including inventing cities they came from in one case.

Though the one player was somewhat disappointed. The players were not told that the campaign was a post-apocolyptic type world(s) and they characters were simply frozen in time, drifting in orbit until their craft turned on as they re-entered the atmosphere of one of the moons. When they made their characters they assumed their were 5 moons, their elaborate families and backstories, cities and countries all smiling. Then accident on an experimental craft and they go into stasis, emerging 160 years later to find only 4 moons and ruins remain.

On the one hand I think it works well since it makes the characters part of the world all the more. One character was a human Sorceress, from a originally very enlightened and forward thinking city. A kinda "City of Tomorrow," place of new inventions, ideas ect. Only to return to find it a smoldering lifeless ruin, devastated by warfare and massive earthquakes.

[Milo v3]

So my campaign world kicked off with a bang.

I am wondering though, do other DM's/worldbuilders farm out some work to players/friends? What I mean is I let my would be players do a lot of lore writing including inventing cities they came from in one case.

Though the one player was somewhat disappointed. The players were not told that the campaign was a post-apocolyptic type world(s) and they characters were simply frozen in time, drifting in orbit until their craft turned on as they re-entered the atmosphere of one of the moons. When they made their characters they assumed their were 5 moons, their elaborate families and backstories, cities and countries all smiling. Then accident on an experimental craft and they go into stasis, emerging 160 years later to find only 4 moons and ruins remain.

On the one hand I think it works well since it makes the characters part of the world all the more. One character was a human Sorceress, from a originally very enlightened and forward thinking city. A kinda "City of Tomorrow," place of new inventions, ideas ect. Only to return to find it a smoldering lifeless ruin, devastated by warfare and massive earthquakes.

I've have been annoyed with that, may as well have not done the work for the cities and backstories, etc.

[BootStrapTommy]

So my campaign world kicked off with a bang.

I am wondering though, do other DM's/worldbuilders farm out some work to players/friends? What I mean is I let my would be players do a lot of lore writing including inventing cities they came from in one case.

An entire historical nation in my campaign setting (Smyrna) is based on an aggregation of former campaigns and character contributions.

Furthermore, one of my players actually frequently contributes to my campaign setting on this very forum. So yeah.

[BladeofObliviom]

I am wondering though, do other DM's/worldbuilders farm out some work to players/friends? What I mean is I let my would be players do a lot of lore writing including inventing cities they came from in one case.

Interestingly, one of my players ran a game in one of my campaign settings at his girlfriend's request. (She requested the game, not the setting. She wanted to try and he didn't feel like using an official setting or making one from scratch). It was somewhat interesting to see some of the subtle changes he made to various bits of lore. I liked a lot of them and some made it into the setting proper.

[Tzi]

I've have been annoyed with that, may as well have not done the work for the cities and backstories, etc.

It is true, they were not aware of the time skip or the actual full nature of the campaign world. I allowed them and their characters to discover it as they play.

One player hailed from a near utopian city in some respects. She discovered that her family is likely dead, and her home city-state destroyed. A hulking ruin with a smoldering underbelly of Alchemical fires that leave the city in a toxic fog.

However it did have some benefits. The players have discovered that largely the cities people survived and fled the city. In fighting eroded it after the cataclysm and people fled as warfare between the mostly human inhabitants of it and nearby Elven peoples intensified.

Now she hunts for the plausible descendants of her sisters and brothers and what became of them, she has reason to believe some survived and fled.

[Yora]

I am wondering though, do other DM's/worldbuilders farm out some work to players/friends? What I mean is I let my would be players do a lot of lore writing including inventing cities they came from in one case.

Nooooo!!! Never! They don't know what I want. They would get it wrong!

Though the one player was somewhat disappointed.

For good reason. You told them you are going to play A, they made characters for A, and then you told them "surprise, we're not playing A at all. We play B instead". You made a promise about what they would get and you broke it. That often breaks a lot of fiction and games.

[Tzi]

Nooooo!!! Never! They don't know what I want. They would get it wrong!


For good reason. You told them you are going to play A, they made characters for A, and then you told them "surprise, we're not playing A at all. We play B instead". You made a promise about what they would get and you broke it. That often breaks a lot of fiction and games.

I wouldn't say it was entirely like that....

The players in are circle, as does the DM's all have sort of a understood agreement that your backstory can and will be used against you. Any parents, children, siblings, all can be kidnapped, played against you.

Then again I can see the point, she wasn't aware of the extent to which things would go bad.

[Yora]

It's not that people don't like surprises. It's more that people don't like surprises that fall outside the established parameters. The idea for the campaign is a completely valid one. But making a character for a futuristic utopia campaign is a very different thing from making a character for a campaign where people from a futuristic utopia find themselves wakes up in a post-apocalyptic wasteland.
Surprises and twists in entertainment are great. But generally people only want surprises inside the story. Surprises outside the story rarely go well. For example, people go seeing a slasher movie with the knowledge that it will be a slasher movie, not because they wanted to see a movie about teens on a road trip. (Which is why "It was all a dream" is universally hated.)
What might perhaps have worked better is to let the players start their characters as almost blank slates with the knowledge that things will get much more complex after the first session. And then, after they have found out that they are in a devestated future, let them write backstories about what their characters have lost.

[Mechalich]

I am wondering though, do other DM's/worldbuilders farm out some work to players/friends? What I mean is I let my would be players do a lot of lore writing including inventing cities they came from in one case.

It depends. If a player wants to name the village they were born in and even develop its backstory (famous for its cheeses, etc.) and maybe describe some low-level NPCs they used to know who have some connection to what is going on in the setting (and Lieutenant X taught me swordsmanship, he used to be in the army during War Y) that's great, it makes a character more complete and it adds some minute amount of lore to the world.

However, players rarely want to do something so innocuous and useful when you hand them the keys to the lore car. Instead they throw in something that is both completely inappropriate to the setting, utterly destabilizing to the geopolitics, and fits their own idea of cool and not what the world is designed to support.

Group world-building even by dedicated, seasoned professionals is incredibly hard. Bored players engineering a setting (and inevitably trying to skew the background in a way that advantages their character personally) they probably haven't even read are almost guaranteed to screw things up.

[BootStrapTommy]

Just tallied my campaign setting and I have over 40 pages. No wonder I can't really seem to get much help. They basically have to read a small book to digest my campaign setting in its entirety...