Results 1 to 30 of 71
-
2013-08-29, 05:04 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2010
- Location
- Turkey
- Gender
Questions about Gourntonk and Ian Starshine
1. Are they in cahoots? Is Ian a spy of Reptilia? Or, is he the source of the leak into reptilia?
2. Did Tarquin scapegoat Ian for Gourntonk's assassination? If so, why? Reptilia is going to be their next enemy.Last edited by martianmister; 2013-08-29 at 05:15 AM.
Spoiler
-
2013-08-29, 05:12 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2008
- Location
- Tokyo
- Gender
Re: Questions about Gourntonk and Ian Starshine
2. Seems clearly to be yes based on what we see in the comic. The reason is probably simply that he needed both a scapegoat and something to hold over Haley's head and this takes care of both.
1. I don't think this is likely. As in 2, I think Ian is merely a scapegoat that provides both cover for the crime and material for manipulating the OOTS.
-
2013-08-29, 05:28 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2003
- Location
- Philadelphia, PA
- Gender
Re: Questions about Gourntonk and Ian Starshine
Ian has absolutely nothing to do with Reptilia whatsoever. The "leak" in question is the ambassador himself, who was attempting to leak their plan to Empress (not knowing that she was not going to do anything about it). Knowing what he knew, he could easily have spread that information to other people once he realized the Empress was a patsy.
Yes.
Reptilia is going to be someone's next enemy. But not necessarily that of the Empire of Blood. Why connect the dots between the ambassador's death and the upcoming invasion if you don't have to? If Tarquin takes credit for the kill and then invades, it confirms the Reptilian government's theory that he has something to hide. If some random extremist killed the ambassador and then some other country invades the next week, that could be related or not. It's tougher to tell.Rich Burlew
Now Available: 2023 OOTS Holiday Ornament plus a big pile of new t-shirt designs (that you can also get on mugs and stuff)!
~~You can also support The Order of the Stick and the GITP forum at Patreon.~~
-
2013-08-29, 05:31 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2012
- Location
- Czech Republic
- Gender
Re: Questions about Gourntonk and Ian Starshine
1. Probably not, but it's certainly not impossible. Reptilia is, after the fall of The Free City of Doom, the sole independent country in the vicinity of Tarquin's empires, so it makes sense Ian would inform them.
2. For above reason, Reptilia would have been attacked anyway. Gourntonk just gave EoT a good excuse.
Edit: Swordsaged by the GiantLast edited by Mike Havran; 2013-08-29 at 05:32 AM.
There must be some sense of order - personal, political or dramatic - and if no one else is going to bring it to this world, I will.
Silent member of Zz'dtri's #698 Scrying Sensor Explanation Club.
-
2013-08-29, 06:36 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2009
Re: Questions about Gourntonk and Ian Starshine
Reptilia is going to be someone's next enemy. But not necessarily that of the Empire of Blood. Why connect the dots between the ambassador's death and the upcoming invasion if you don't have to? If Tarquin takes credit for the kill and then invades, it confirms the Reptilian government's theory that he has something to hide. If some random extremist killed the ambassador and then some other country invades the next week, that could be related or not. It's tougher to tell.
That said, one might have to wonder how three empires with the same name scheme came to slow prominence, dominating country after country over time.
Sure, it would take longer to detect, but one would really see it if they looked at a map 10-15 years ago versus one from today. That's not proof they're in cahoots, but it would eventually arouse suspicion from anyone familiar with and/or vaguely interested in that area of the continent of that period of time, if what existed before was a series of 20-30 nations vying for dominance which would get set up and then crumble within 1-2 years or less.
EDIT: I recall that the names of the nations keep changing. That provides extra cover. Still, the existence of 3 nations where there was previously so many is something that would be noticed, I would think.Last edited by Nilan8888; 2013-08-29 at 06:39 AM.
What shall we do to fill the empty spaces
Where waves of hunger gnaw?
-
2013-08-29, 06:45 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2005
- Location
- Sydney, Australia
- Gender
Re: Questions about Gourntonk and Ian Starshine
Links: As per comic 758, the empires change names every few years, which would make it harder to detect. Which is part of why people always need new maps (and this particular cartographer happens not to keep old ones).
I'm pretty much the opposite of concise. If I fail to get to the point, please ask me and I'm happy to (attempt to) clarify.
-
2013-08-29, 06:52 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2005
- Location
Re: Questions about Gourntonk and Ian Starshine
I don't think so, such a thing is par for the course on the Western Continent. Sure, you can see it if you're looking for it, but a casual observer doesn't see three steadily growing empires, they see a region that still changes hands every few years just like it always has done. If they look a bit closer they might notice that there are fewer countries in the region than there previously were, but for all we know the number of countries on the west coast (for example) has doubled over the same period. Bear in mind also that it's not simply a matter of changing the name, Tarquin goes through the whole process of "overthrowing" the previous ruler and "conquering" their land. The borders of the Empire of Blood are almost certainly different to those of Tyrinaria, what matters to Tarquin is how much land his team controls in total, not where the lines between them are drawn for the marks.
-
2013-08-29, 06:54 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2009
Re: Questions about Gourntonk and Ian Starshine
Links: As per comic 758, the empires change names every few years, which would make it harder to detect. Which is part of why people always need new maps (and this particular cartographer happens not to keep old ones).
1. Three Empires exist where there was 20-30 nations before
2. When a nation is overthrown, presumably, the borders stay relatively consistent. The major cities remain within the borders of where they were. Or do these nations "trade" cities? If so that might have to be a recent addition to the plan: at one time when first starting out, each of the 3 nations probably wouldn't have been bordering one another for that to be an option. Otherwise he's constantly "losing" territory he has to take back over.
3. Anyone dealing with these nations over time would start to notice the familiar faces in diplomatic relations. This would get clearer as time went on as you were gradually more likely to see them since they're gradually becoming the only game in town.Last edited by Nilan8888; 2013-08-29 at 06:55 AM.
What shall we do to fill the empty spaces
Where waves of hunger gnaw?
-
2013-08-29, 06:57 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2004
Re: Questions about Gourntonk and Ian Starshine
And I think that's the crux of the matter. The non-Elven part of the Western Continent has been in so much upheaval for so long that no one cares what the political map looked like one year ago, let alone 10 or 15. I mean, the cartographer can't be bothered to even keep the old ones in stock, so it takes someone as paranoid as Ian Starshine to think that the constantly shifting names and lines on the maps might mean something and actually pay attention.
Last edited by Grey Watcher; 2013-08-29 at 06:57 AM.
-
2013-08-29, 07:02 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2004
Re: Questions about Gourntonk and Ian Starshine
True, I always imagined that Tarquin keeps up enough open hostility between the patsy empires to keep things plausible. Nothing that would cost valuable troops, but loots of raiding and sabre-rattling and such.
This may be what tipped of the Reptilian ambassador, actually. Maybe they should invest in some Hats of Disguise?
-
2013-08-29, 07:28 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2010
Re: Questions about Gourntonk and Ian Starshine
As the latest comic demonstrates (again), people can and do figure it all out. However, Tarquin seems pretty good at either keeping them in prison or assassinating them before it becomes a problem.
And if another nation is at risk of unravelling the plot, they become the next target.(Avatar by Ava)
-
2013-08-29, 07:32 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2005
- Location
Re: Questions about Gourntonk and Ian Starshine
Nonsense. There are 18 countries total at present and the Empires of Blood, Sweat and Tears comprise at most half of the inhabited area. So your estimate of the "normal" density is at least double the actual figure, and that's assuming that on this very turbulent continent there is such a thing as "normal" at all, and that the singular map we have is an accurate reflection of said normal state. Neither of these assumptions is tremendously valid.
The three empires certainly vary their shared borders, not to do so would be uncharacteristically foolish of Tarquin. Your assumption that the empires started out separate is unfounded and unlikely; they were formed for the express purpose of working in concert so they likely began together and expanded outwards rather than began in totally different places and expanded towards one another.
Tarquin makes no secret of the fact that he offers his services to many different warlords/kings/emperors/dictators/etc. Furthermore, anybody who lasts long enough on the Western Continent to start recognising familiar faces is going to be his own counterargument. Nobody who will be dealing with the Empire of Blood is going to be around long enough to connect any dots unless they're a) pulling the same con as Tarquin or b) legitimately doing what Tarquin claims to be doing (kissing up to whomever overthrows their previous lord and getting a new job there).
-
2013-08-29, 07:53 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2004
Re: Questions about Gourntonk and Ian Starshine
True, but it might raise a few flags if you always that Tarquin, Malack, Miron, Laurin, Catgirl, and Shoulderpads are ALWAYS in pairs with each other. Not enough to prove much, but maybe enough to start someone digging around until they start to find actual evidence of their collusion.
Last edited by Grey Watcher; 2013-08-29 at 08:05 AM.
-
2013-08-29, 08:00 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
- Location
- Raleigh NC
- Gender
Re: Questions about Gourntonk and Ian Starshine
"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."
-Valery Legasov in Chernobyl
-
2013-08-29, 08:04 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2012
- Location
- Czech Republic
- Gender
Re: Questions about Gourntonk and Ian Starshine
Perhaps that is one of the reasons they change partners. It could arouse a suspicion if there is always the same pair around, but if it's a totally different pair it's entirely different matter. And I don't think there are many people with access to high nobility courts of all three nations who are at war.
There must be some sense of order - personal, political or dramatic - and if no one else is going to bring it to this world, I will.
Silent member of Zz'dtri's #698 Scrying Sensor Explanation Club.
-
2013-08-29, 08:09 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2008
- Location
- Tokyo
- Gender
Re: Questions about Gourntonk and Ian Starshine
This is a tangent but I never previously noticed that the poster ID area for Rich is narrower than everyone else's with a correspondingly wider response area.
-
2013-08-29, 08:17 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2005
- Location
Re: Questions about Gourntonk and Ian Starshine
Again, it's not going to raise any flags if there's nobody there to notice them. The constantly shifting allegiances of the Western Continent mean that it's very unlikely in the first place that a dignitary will have a long enough posting to make these connections. At best you might recognise that Tarquin was also general for some other country you had dealings with a few years back, but that's not surprising because you're also likely working for someone else at this point. Swapping partners means that they have to go through an entire cycle for a "pattern" to emerge. I doubt there's anyone involved in the continent's politics who lasts long enough to witness that, and if there is that would likely make them a high priority target of Tarquin's!
-
2013-08-29, 08:39 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2013
Re: Questions about Gourntonk and Ian Starshine
Tarquin's con doesn't have to work forever. Just long enough so that TT's empire isn't seen as a common enemy and gang-tackled the way Tarquin's first empire was.
Just as a matter of looking at the map, they may be at a point where
the charade no longer matters. The Great Barren Desert is a pretty good barrier against invasion, I don't think the elves are going to march across the Goaway Mountains, (which are probably held by drow) and even if the countries beyond Sandsedge and in the Dictatoria vicinity got themselves together, the BST empires look like they could at least hold them off.
-
2013-08-29, 08:39 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2009
Re: Questions about Gourntonk and Ian Starshine
Nonsense. There are 18 countries total at present and the Empires of Blood, Sweat and Tears comprise at most half of the inhabited area. So your estimate of the "normal" density is at least double the actual figure, and that's assuming that on this very turbulent continent there is such a thing as "normal" at all, and that the singular map we have is an accurate reflection of said normal state. Neither of these assumptions is tremendously valid.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html
Quote from above comic "Spins of the Father":
"When he first appeared on the continent, he (Tarquin) conquered eleven nations in eight months.
It took a coalition of no less than twenty-six other countries to defeat him and drive him out"
So, considering the other 11 have to be mutually exclusive (especially since this all happened in the space of a year or so): 11 + 26 = 37.
And that's 37 minimum, since the coalition was NO LESS than 26. Could have been more.
And I said 20-30, so there's actually 7 to spare in case any are based off continent, or crumbled in the space of another to take their place.
The three empires certainly vary their shared borders, not to do so would be uncharacteristically foolish of Tarquin. Your assumption that the empires started out separate is unfounded and unlikely; they were formed for the express purpose of working in concert so they likely began together and expanded outwards rather than began in totally different places and expanded towards one another.
If they started out in different areas, at least that way they could expand independently for a while.
Tarquin makes no secret of the fact that he offers his services to many different warlords/kings/emperors/dictators/etc. Furthermore, anybody who lasts long enough on the Western Continent to start recognising familiar faces is going to be his own counterargument. Nobody who will be dealing with the Empire of Blood is going to be around long enough to connect any dots unless they're a) pulling the same con as Tarquin or b) legitimately doing what Tarquin claims to be doing (kissing up to whomever overthrows their previous lord and getting a new job there).Last edited by Nilan8888; 2013-08-29 at 08:59 AM.
What shall we do to fill the empty spaces
Where waves of hunger gnaw?
-
2013-08-29, 09:06 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2005
- Location
Re: Questions about Gourntonk and Ian Starshine
Ok, so you're assuming that a different set of circumstances is the "normal" state. Doesn't make it any more valid. If anything, the map shows us that all of the Western Continent is less divided that it was when Tarquin was defeated, so how is the casual observer supposed to determine that the Empires of Blood, Sweat and Tears are the aberrations?
You're still assuming, baselessly, that it's trivial for a casual observer to recognise continuity when the empire changes. Actually, for some reason you're selectively applying this only when the countries are near each other. When they're in different areas you're just assuming they'll "expand independently" without considering what that entails. The con as described by Ian and Tarquin relies on all three countries working in concert, they simply don't have the option of "expanding independently" if they want to avoid precisely the pitfall Tarquin was trying to avoid with the scheme in the first place. Remaining hidden from people who are unlikely to notice them in the first place is not more important than enacting the actual plan!
Long lives and a stable yet geographically close location. Yes, the Elves are ideally situated to notice this one particular clue. It's still pretty circumstantial though, and the Elves are, in Hinjo's words, "slow to go to war". I really must stress that the strongest thing in Tarquin's favour is that nobody is looking for a grand Machiavellian scheme underlying Western politics. Not one that works, anyway. The clues are only worth something if someone is willing to examine them.
-
2013-08-29, 09:08 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2003
- Location
- Philadelphia, PA
- Gender
Re: Questions about Gourntonk and Ian Starshine
Who can keep track of all those humans and their ephemeral political states? We have better things to do than track the political allegiances of fruit flies. Frankly, we don't care what those savages do amongst themselves, as long as they stay on their side of the mountains. One's as bad as the next anyway.
Rich Burlew
Now Available: 2023 OOTS Holiday Ornament plus a big pile of new t-shirt designs (that you can also get on mugs and stuff)!
~~You can also support The Order of the Stick and the GITP forum at Patreon.~~
-
2013-08-29, 09:13 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2008
- Location
- Wales, UK
- Gender
-
2013-08-29, 09:34 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2009
Re: Questions about Gourntonk and Ian Starshine
Ok, so you're assuming that a different set of circumstances is the "normal" state. Doesn't make it any more valid. If anything, the map shows us that all of the Western Continent is less divided that it was when Tarquin was defeated, so how is the casual observer supposed to determine that the Empires of Blood, Sweat and Tears are the aberrations?
You're still assuming, baselessly, that it's trivial for a casual observer to recognise continuity when the empire changes. Actually, for some reason you're selectively applying this only when the countries are near each other. When they're in different areas you're just assuming they'll "expand independently" without considering what that entails. The con as described by Ian and Tarquin relies on all three countries working in concert, they simply don't have the option of "expanding independently" if they want to avoid precisely the pitfall Tarquin was trying to avoid with the scheme in the first place. Remaining hidden from people who are unlikely to notice them in the first place is not more important than enacting the actual plan!
Had Tarquin's scheme only been going on for 1-5 years, yeah, no problem.
But this has been going on for... was it 25 years? A little shorter? A little longer? It just falls to reason that given the size of the area, given the timeframe and given the presence of stable nations, the chance of someone noticing something grows. Certainly, its far less given that the world is somewhere south of the renaissance in terms of social development and that to say the place in question has turbulent politics is a large understatement.
As to whether they originally shared borders or not -- which is not a big point of contention for me -- it's that I think it would be harder for someone looking at two different maps, say 12 years into the plan, to look at three different nation-sections in different areas of the region that have generally grown, given some changes in borders, then to notice that a good area of the map has been dominated by no more than three nations at any one time, an area that continues to grow and can be traced back in size as you look at the maps.
It's not that anyone would be looking for it. It's just that as time goes on with its infinite permutations, and the area under dominance grows more significant, the chance of someone noticing something becomes larger. They're not going to immediately assume some sort of collusion, but I'd think someone might see it as odd.
Long lives and a stable yet geographically close location. Yes, the Elves are ideally situated to notice this one particular clue. It's still pretty circumstantial though, and the Elves are, in Hinjo's words, "slow to go to war". I really must stress that the strongest thing in Tarquin's favour is that nobody is looking for a grand Machiavellian scheme underlying Western politics. Not one that works, anyway. The clues are only worth something if someone is willing to examine them.
Who can keep track of all those humans and their ephemeral political states? We have better things to do than track the political allegiances of fruit flies. Frankly, we don't care what those savages do amongst themselves, as long as they stay on their side of the mountains. One's as bad as the next anyway.
Yes, the elves are stated (and in this case I can actually say 'you stated', so that's a novel change) to be "slow to go to war" -- which could mean a lot of things -- but in the end they did send people to help the humans of that nation.
The most likely assumption that would come to mind is that, as a rule, the elves tend to think of humans south of the mountains as greater savages as those elsewhere.
Although, it's an interesting irony if that's the case, since those humans (and lizardfolk) are those most poised to get in their face if they should ever get their act together (which is sort of happening thanks to T's scheme).What shall we do to fill the empty spaces
Where waves of hunger gnaw?
-
2013-08-29, 09:59 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2003
- Location
- Philadelphia, PA
- Gender
Re: Questions about Gourntonk and Ian Starshine
Because someone was asking for their help, over and over again, for a year. And they had a long term mutually beneficial alliance with the Azurites beforehand; they don't have ties with any of the humans in the desert.
I think maybe you have this preconception that elves, as a general rule, are Good-aligned peacekeepers who watch the world and look for places to intervene if Evil is getting the upper hand, and that's just not the way things work here. They don't care what happens outside their borders unless someone makes them care, and nobody is doing that regarding Tarquin.
For that matter, would they have helped the Azurites if they had been attacked by a neighboring human country rather than an evil sorcerer lich? Probably not. They would've looked at it as an internal human affair that's none of their business.
Honestly, I'm not even sure I've ever understood the point of human nations in the first place. I say, i's about time those humans got their act together and formed one world government, like grown-ups. You don't see the gnomes running around fighting wars with each other, do you? No, because they're civilized.Rich Burlew
Now Available: 2023 OOTS Holiday Ornament plus a big pile of new t-shirt designs (that you can also get on mugs and stuff)!
~~You can also support The Order of the Stick and the GITP forum at Patreon.~~
-
2013-08-29, 10:08 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2004
-
2013-08-29, 10:17 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2009
Re: Questions about Gourntonk and Ian Starshine
I think maybe you have this preconception that elves, as a general rule, are Good-aligned peacekeepers who watch the world and look for places to intervene if Evil is getting the upper hand, and that's just not the way things work here. They don't care what happens outside their borders unless someone makes them care, and nobody is doing that regarding Tarquin.
But hey: if they don't care, they don't care. It's not like there isn't precedent for this ('what is this nation that begins with 'Ch' and ends in 'na' you speak of?'). But if something like this could happen in neighboring lands over 25 years without them noticing the overall consolidation of power... well, the elves only have themselves to blame.What shall we do to fill the empty spaces
Where waves of hunger gnaw?
-
2013-08-29, 10:17 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2012
- Location
- Here
- Gender
-
2013-08-29, 10:25 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2003
- Location
- Philadelphia, PA
- Gender
Re: Questions about Gourntonk and Ian Starshine
Rich Burlew
Now Available: 2023 OOTS Holiday Ornament plus a big pile of new t-shirt designs (that you can also get on mugs and stuff)!
~~You can also support The Order of the Stick and the GITP forum at Patreon.~~
-
2013-08-29, 11:34 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2012
Re: Questions about Gourntonk and Ian Starshine
Rich,
I'm always impressed when you start talking about political or battle strategies. Trying to follow your mind is like trying to follow one of those spaghetti mazes, where you have to follow one strand of spaghetti through a whole bowl. I'm glad you dumb it down in the strip for us normal folks, but it's fun to see that, behind all that, you have incredibly intricate reasons for why these characters behave the way they do. i think a lot of that shows through in Tarquin. There's no way I could write a character like that, it's hard to think of complex strategies even if they're fake.Avatar by Gurgleflep
-
2013-08-29, 11:42 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
- Location
- Raleigh NC
- Gender
Re: Questions about Gourntonk and Ian Starshine
"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."
-Valery Legasov in Chernobyl