Why is V constantly benched?

[Domino Quartz]

[citation needed]

It's a fantasy webcomic. Knowledge of what D&D is, is almost certainly a safe assumption for the majority.

I have to disagree with you there. Before I started reading OotS, I knew of D&D, but I didn't know anything about it other than that it was a tabletop game. In fact, I'd have to put [citation needed] next to your statement right there.

[Liliet]

I have to disagree with you there. Before I started reading OotS, I knew of D&D, but I didn't know anything about it other than that it was a tabletop game. In fact, I'd have to put [citation needed] next to your statement right there.

Case in point:

First off, awesome comic. Never played D&D, but these fantasy stick-figures tell a great story.

-snip-

[Psyren]

I have to disagree with you there. Before I started reading OotS, I knew of D&D, but I didn't know anything about it other than that it was a tabletop game. In fact, I'd have to put [citation needed] next to your statement right there.

"Majority" does not mean "everyone."

Spoiler

Show

Mass Death Ward counts, all the others do not. They could as well have been already existing rare spells, nothing would have changed for the plot.

Except the need to be researched explains their rarity quite easily. Also, you're still wrong - Malack's Sunlight Protection being a researched spell is quite important to the plot. It explains why he has such an extensive research library, why he is so skilled at research that he is capable of inserting a trojan horse into Durkon's custom spell, and it even threw reader's off the scent of his vampirism for months.

You are telling me that the avaliability of healing in the story robs it of much drama.

No, I'm telling you the opposite. Your own quote, to refresh your memory: "From the story point of view? They are badass enough that they don't get that heavily injured. Or they can have superhero-style regeneration." The former has no dramatic tension, while the latter requires suspending disbelief. Neither is satisfying.

No.

No, really not identical.

Yes, really identical, and you already pointed out the Biblical source for this trope (making it Older Than Dirt.)

This does not need any explanation.

This is a recurring response from you, so I'll address it directly. No, nothing at all needs to be explained. But there is still benefit to be gained from doing so, or by basing the story on a system that already has those explanations baked in. It may not appeal to you, but it does appeal to enough others that the comic got popular in the first place.

I can't count in how many stories bad guys had access to teleport magic and good guys didn't, and it never got any explanation other than "They are powerful and vile wizards who draw upon sources dangerous and forbidden!"

That is a very tired trope, almost as bad as the "Evil Science" serials where theory and experimentation invariably lead to horrible outcomes. Bad Guys can Teleport because Teleporting Is Bad, or the only possible way to achieve enough power to learn it is by pacting with evil forces. Yawn.

Regardless, OotS is not that kind of setting, and thank goodness for that.

I feel that either you haven't read much non-DnD fantasy fiction, or it's just that we come from different cultures.

If I'm forced to choose one of your baseless assumptions, then my my misspent well-spent youth in such literary locales as Xanth, Valdemar, Discworld, Shannara, Midkemia, Middle-Earth, Narnia, Merovence, Klah, Westeros, Hogwarts, and "Randland" (WoT) lead me to believe it's the latter - but our cultures can't be that divergent if we both enjoy the same stick-figure D&D webcomic anyway, so I doubt that is accurate either.

But again, I'm not asking anyone to "research D&D." The beauty of the Giant's work is that you can follow what's going on even without being familiar with the game, even though some of the jokes/references may be lost on you. However, having that material to draw on does provide him benefits; for anyone whose curiosity or even suspension of disbelief actually becomes an obstacle to enjoying the comic, they can look at the game rules and say "oh, that really is how it works/that's why he did it that way." I don't think there's a lot of those people, but I see some in almost every main comic thread.

More important (at least to me) are the benefits that the rules provide to him as he writes the story. Often, constraints influence the creative process - like the artist who restricts himself to monochrome seeing how beautiful a painting he can still make, or the fashion designer who creates professional gowns on a very tight budget. We see one explicit example in Girard's boss-level illusion, which the Giant was able to get the idea from by reading the Microcosm psionic power, and simply tweak a couple of details. Another example stemmed from Xykon's speech on power, and the method he used to illustrate his point (quite forcefully) to V - a minor and often-overlooked ability of liches that nevertheless likely led to the scene being scripted the way it was, which the Giant alludes to in the DStP commentary.

As for readers being "analytical sort"... you may have noticed just how much Giant is irritated by rules nitpicking.

As well he should be, but that doesn't mean the system is doing more harm than good, or that its drawbacks outweigh its benefits.

[Liliet]

But again, I'm not asking anyone to "research D&D." The beauty of the Giant's work is that you can follow what's going on even without being familiar with the game, even though some of the jokes/references may be lost on you.

And here we return to my point: The Giant's work is not designed to be understood only by those who know D&D rules. Your argument was that the avaliability of the outside sources of D&D rules makes writer's work easier as he caters to the D&D-knowing audience and doesn't explain that which would need to be explained if they didn't already know that.

So after all, the rules do not provide The Giant with a shortcut for explaining his story. He does not rely on them.

However, having that material to draw on does provide him benefits; for anyone whose curiosity or even suspension of disbelief actually becomes an obstacle to enjoying the comic, they can look at the game rules and say "oh, that really is how it works/that's why he did it that way." I don't think there's a lot of those people, but I see some in almost every main comic thread.

If I understand correctly what you are talking about, these people are called rules nitpickers, and there would be no obstacle if there was not an assumption that The Giant should follow an outside source.

Were you talking about something else?

More important (at least to me) are the benefits that the rules provide to him as he writes the story. Often, constraints influence the creative process - like the artist who restricts himself to monochrome seeing how beautiful a painting he can still make, or the fashion designer who creates professional gowns on a very tight budget.

Well, that's true enough. Writing within D&D rules is an interesting challenge. But it's a constraint, you yourself have said that. It does not _help_ as such.

We see one explicit example in Girard's boss-level illusion, which the Giant was able to get the idea from by reading the Microcosm psionic power, and simply tweak a couple of details.

Well, he could use that idea in a custom-made magic system too. Inspiration has no limits.

Another example stemmed from Xykon's speech on power, and the method he used to illustrate his point (quite forcefully) to V - a minor and often-overlooked ability of liches that nevertheless likely led to the scene being scripted the way it was, which the Giant alludes to in the DStP commentary.

This is called a Chekhov's Gun. In this case, it only worked for those who know D&D rules and could have seen it coming. For those who do not know D&D rules it's the same as if The Giant just invented that ability on the spot. If instead of referring to a third-party material that ability was mentioned at some earlier moment of the comic - for example, when Xykon and Reddy were re-taking Xykon's old tower - it would have worked for everyone.

And inspiration knows no limits.

As well he should be, but that doesn't mean the system is doing more harm than good, or that its drawbacks outweigh its benefits.

Well, so far it's "interesting challenge" and "making a point about the system itself" vs "creative restraint", "needlessly complicated rules", "predictability of combat", "bad in-party power balance" and "partly alienating non-DnD audience with in-jokes". There are arguments for both sides, and it probably mostly boils down to personal preferences. Have I missed anything in this summary?

[Psyren]

So after all, the rules do not provide The Giant with a shortcut for explaining his story.

I've given you several examples contradicting this assertion already.

If I understand correctly what you are talking about, these people are called rules nitpickers, and there would be no obstacle if there was not an assumption that The Giant should follow an outside source.

Those people would be obsessing over minutiae even with a totally custom magic system. The only way to stop them entirely is to make your world's magic completely arbitrary/have no set rules at all. That's not a particularly satisfying approach from either side of the pen.

Well, that's true enough. Writing within D&D rules is an interesting challenge. But it's a constraint, you yourself have said that. It does not _help_ as such.

Constraints can and do help. Someone walks up to you on the street and says "hey, tell me a joke" - you may have Stephen Colbert's entire repertoire memorized or watched every episode of SNL etc., you're likely going to draw a blank. Likewise with "Hey, draw me a picture" to an artist, or "write me a story" to an author, or "code something" to a programmer, no matter their skill. As you add requirements - constraints - the creative can focus and deliver quality.

Well, he could use that idea in a custom-made magic system too. Inspiration has no limits.

Sure, but using this system is what led to that idea, and it was cool. The point is that the constraint led to something that worked.

This is called a Chekhov's Gun. In this case, it only worked for those who know D&D rules and could have seen it coming. For those who do not know D&D rules it's the same as if The Giant just invented that ability on the spot. If instead of referring to a third-party material that ability was mentioned at some earlier moment of the comic - for example, when Xykon and Reddy were re-taking Xykon's old tower - it would have worked for everyone.

So you admit that using a custom ability would have required additional exposition at some earlier point in the comic? Aren't you trying to argue that game rules add clutter?

Well, so far it's "interesting challenge" and "making a point about the system itself" vs "creative restraint", "needlessly complicated rules", "predictability of combat", "bad in-party power balance" and "partly alienating non-DnD audience with in-jokes". There are arguments for both sides, and it probably mostly boils down to personal preferences. Have I missed anything in this summary?

- The strip's been anything but predictable so far (though with this many people reading it, somebody is bound to guess right - nothing to do about that.)
- The Giant made his feelings on "in-party power balance" clear in SSDT, via the argument between 4e Vaarsuvius and 3.5e Vaarsuvius.
- What alienation?

[Vinsfeld]

THAT'S why.

(see new comic, #919)

[Solse]

THAT'S why.

This is the best argument in the entire thread for the "Bench V" side. And it's only two words long (minus the clarification at the bottom of the post).

[TRH]

THAT'S why.

(see new comic, #919)

Eh, I'm still not convinced that was even a "necessary" rescue. They certainly didn't need rescuing from the mooks, and Tarquin may or may not step in himself. So yeah, not buying it.

[zimmerwald1915]

Eh, I'm still not convinced that was even a "necessary" rescue. They certainly didn't need rescuing from the mooks, and Tarquin may or may not step in himself. So yeah, not buying it.

Pretty much this. Roy could have gotten out of this.

[Byzantine2]

Eh, I'm still not convinced that was even a "necessary" rescue. They certainly didn't need rescuing from the mooks, and Tarquin may or may not step in himself. So yeah, not buying it.

For Belkar it certainly is, he would not have survived until dusk, and Roy probably wouldn't have either, given just how many mooks there are. I will give you Durkon is basically invulnerable against them due to his DR and fast healing, but 2/3 probably dying is not good.

[Tev]

+ Durkon likely wouldn't be able to rest for entire hour anyway, so surviving until the dusk wasn't a real solution.

[Vinsfeld]

Eh, I'm still not convinced that was even a "necessary" rescue. They certainly didn't need rescuing from the mooks, and Tarquin may or may not step in himself. So yeah, not buying it.

Maybe not, but V saved a lot of time and a lot of trouble for Roy. With two spells, V seems to have killed as many mooks as Roy (or, approximately, maybe another fireball evens the score). If V had been there from the start, maybe Roy wouldn't have asked Durkon for a healing potion.

I'm not saying that V saved the party or that they needed to be rescued. I just pointed out that V is overpower, compared to the rest of the Order.

[zimmerwald1915]

Maybe not, but V saved a lot of time and a lot of trouble for Roy. With two spells, V seems to have killed as many mooks as Roy (or, approximately, maybe another fireball evens the score). If V had been there from the start, maybe Roy wouldn't have asked Durkon for a healing potion.

Okay, so V's saved the party 750 gp, 375 in the unlikely event that Durkon brews his own potions. And at the cost of Ishtar knows how many soldiers' lives, separating Elan and Haley definitively from the rest of the party, and probably the intervention of Tarquin, Laurin, and Miron. Great job, V, I'm sure Roy couldn't have done it without you.

[TRH]

For Belkar it certainly is, he would not have survived until dusk, and Roy probably wouldn't have either, given just how many mooks there are. I will give you Durkon is basically invulnerable against them due to his DR and fast healing, but 2/3 probably dying is not good.

Eh, if Durkon has enough diamond for a resurrection, that would also suffice for two Raise Deads. Nitpicking individual levels doesn't seem to matter a whole lot in this comic, so Roy and Belkar would just be inconvenienced. And that's close to the worst case scenario, no guarantee that they'd actually die.

Maybe not, but V saved a lot of time and a lot of trouble for Roy. With two spells, V seems to have killed as many mooks as Roy (or, approximately, maybe another fireball evens the score). If V had been there from the start, maybe Roy wouldn't have asked Durkon for a healing potion.

I'm not saying that V saved the party or that they needed to be rescued. I just pointed out that V is overpower, compared to the rest of the Order.

Say that again next strip, when Tarquin one-shots V with a thrown dagger or something. After this "demonstration" (quotes because I'm still not impressed), you just know she's gonna get benched again.

Okay, so V's saved the party 750 gp, 375 in the unlikely event that Durkon brews his own potions. And at the cost of Ishtar knows how many soldiers' lives, separating Elan and Haley definitively from the rest of the party, and probably the intervention of Tarquin, Laurin, and Miron. Great job, V, I'm sure Roy couldn't have done it without you.

I don't necessarily agree with all of this (Haley and Elan are the last people we need to wring our hands over at this point), but Zim's almost certainly right about this provoking an intervention from Tarquin. So yeah, I can easily see this as making things worse. Especially since V is sure to fail any saving throws Laurin or Miron force on her, and has zero chance against Tarquin in a fight.

[luc258]

Out of interest:
What are the story wrecking powers V does not have but a munchkin wizard would have?

PS:
the faustian deal V made makes a very nice kryptonite cage that goes very well with the overall story.

[Kish]

Out of interest:
What are the story wrecking powers V does not have but a munchkin wizard would have?

Grounds To Howl At The DM If I Ever Lose. Oh wait, no.

I mean Evershifting List of Perfectly Prepared Spells. Wait, not that either.

Uh.

[TRH]

Out of interest:
What are the story wrecking powers V does not have but a munchkin wizard would have?

The entirety of the Conjuration and Necromancy schools of magic, especially Conjuration, which would allow the Order to teleport wherever they wanted and to summon up meatshields to fight their battles for them. I don't know as much about Necromancy, but from V's brute force perspective, the Horrid Wilting spell would be devastating in most any battle. And Animate Dead would be nice, as well, with regards to not having to get the Order's hands dirty with something as plebeian as fighting.

[CRtwenty]

Out of interest:
What are the story wrecking powers V does not have but a munchkin wizard would have?

Teleport for one.

[zimmerwald1915]

Out of interest:
What are the story wrecking powers V does not have but a munchkin wizard would have?

Of her level (though not specialty) and off the top of my head? Planar bind an efreeti, charm it, ask it to wish a lawful good candle of invocation into your possession, chain gate solars. And that's one of the very basic tricks.

[Vinsfeld]

Say that again next strip, when Tarquin one-shots V with a thrown dagger or something. After this "demonstration" (quotes because I'm still not impressed), you just know she's gonna get benched again.

That would actually be awesome

And I'm not impressed either. I mean, V is a high level Wizard... It's normal to be able to kill a bunch of mooks with the right spell.

[TRH]

That would actually be awesome

And I'm not impressed as well. I mean, V is a high level Wizard... It's normal to be able to kill a bunch of mooks with the right spells.

I actually expect it to be annoying. I mean, how would you have reacted if Belkar had recovered from the Mark of Justice curse, gone on his thief killing rampage, only to get creamed by Bozzok, no, by Crystal, and then for the day to be saved by Celia's negotiation with Hank? That's more or less what I expect of Vaarsuvius in the next strip or two, except her one fireball was orders of magnitude less cool than Belkar's kill streak against the Thieves' Guild. I may not hate V like Zimmer does, but I pride myself on being just as pessimistic if not more so about her fortunes.

As for impressing me, V could do that if she actually managed to avoid getting neutralized in the first minute of battle, and by that I don't mean that something like a strength-draining arrow or a tanglefoot bag doesn't happen, I mean that V uses some spell to evade or defeat such an attempt, or, better yet, makes a bloody saving throw. That would be a real shocker.

[Emanick]

Okay, so V's saved the party 750 gp, 375 in the unlikely event that Durkon brews his own potions. And at the cost of Ishtar knows how many soldiers' lives, separating Elan and Haley definitively from the rest of the party, and probably the intervention of Tarquin, Laurin, and Miron. Great job, V, I'm sure Roy couldn't have done it without you.

Or, you know, V could just carry them over the flames, since s/he can fly. That's totally an option as well.

I can understand hating V, I really can. What I can't understand is failing to acknowledge anything s/he does whatsoever as helpful. That's just intellectually dishonest.

[zimmerwald1915]

Or, you know, V could just carry them over the flames, since s/he can fly. That's totally an option as well.

I'm sure they'd appreciate being exposed to massed crossbow fire.

I can understand hating V, I really can. What I can't understand is failing to acknowledge anything s/he does whatsoever as helpful. That's just intellectually dishonest.

True hatred demands it. By ascribing admirable qualities to a horrific character, one de-emphasizes the horrificness of the character. Case in point: Tarquin.

[TRH]

I'm sure they'd appreciate being exposed to massed crossbow fire.

If Emanick's talking about Elan and Haley, I doubt the soldiers would risk hitting Elan, so that's probably not an issue. And Tarquin would restrain his friends in all likelihood.

[Emanick]

I'm sure they'd appreciate being exposed to massed crossbow fire.

I doubt that the soldiers who just a minute ago expressed horror at the possibility that they might injure or kill Elan will be eager to open fire on him when Vaarsuvius picks him up. The same goes for Haley if she clings to him.

True hatred demands it. By ascribing admirable qualities to a horrific character, one de-emphasizes the horrificness of the character. Case in point: Tarquin.

I'd rather not experience "true hatred" at all, but learning that doing so requires me to be intellectually dishonest somehow makes the prospect even less enticing.

[zimmerwald1915]

I doubt that the soldiers who just a minute ago expressed horror at the possibility that they might injure or kill Elan will be eager to open fire on him when Vaarsuvius picks him up. The same goes for Haley if she clings to him.

As Haley demonstrated, the soldiers with crossbows are on the lip of the crated. Not one of them expressed "horror" at the thought of shooting Elan. Are suggesting Amir is representative of the whole Division?

I'd rather not experience "true hatred" at all, but learning that doing so requires me to be intellectually dishonest somehow makes the prospect even less enticing.

Your loss.

[Anarion]

I'm sure they'd appreciate being exposed to massed crossbow fire.

Who? Elan and Haley? That's probably be the best defense V could acquire to mass crossbow fire since nobody wants to harm Elan lest Tarquin horrifically murder their families.

True hatred demands it. By ascribing admirable qualities to a horrific character, one de-emphasizes the horrificness of the character. Case in point: Tarquin.

Crap, Tarquin and Roy both have hitpoints and fortitude saves on their character sheets. Guess I better stop admiring Roy.

[zimmerwald1915]

Crap, Tarquin and Roy both have hitpoints and fortitude saves on their character sheets. Guess I better stop admiring Roy.

Guess it's a good thing that outside the Class and Level Geekery thread, neither Roy nor Tarquin has anything resembling a character sheet

[Emanick]

As Haley demonstrated, the soldiers with crossbows are on the lip of the crated. Not one of them expressed "horror" at the thought of shooting Elan. Are suggesting Amir is representative of the whole Division?

Yes, I am. Elan runs through the ranks of the soldiers, asking them to take him on, and they all refuse, even after Haley starts shooting their comrades. I'm unsure why you think the soldiers will suddenly change their tune the instant Elan is picked up by a powerful wizard who has just demonstrated the ability and willingness to kill dozens of them at once.

[Vinsfeld]

I actually expect it to be annoying. I mean, how would you have reacted if Belkar had recovered from the Mark of Justice curse, gone on his thief killing rampage, only to get creamed by Bozzok, no, by Crystal, and then for the day to be saved by Celia's negotiation with Hank? That's more or less what I expect of Vaarsuvius in the next strip or two, except her one fireball was orders of magnitude less cool than Belkar's kill streak against the Thieves' Guild. I may not hate V like Zimmer does, but I pride myself on being just as pessimistic if not more so about her fortunes.

As for impressing me, V could do that if she actually managed to avoid getting neutralized in the first minute of battle, and by that I don't mean that something like a strength-draining arrow or a tanglefoot bag doesn't happen, I mean that V uses some spell to evade or defeat such an attempt, or, better yet, makes a bloody saving throw. That would be a real shocker.

But Tarquin taking a rested (I mean, V cast only a few spells) V would let us take a hint of how powerful he really is. I mean, if Tarquin went there alone to try and stop V, he would have to fight the Order (minus Belkar). And now Durkon is a Vampire. But I don't see it happening really. As you pointed out, it would be annoying.