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Thread: Why is V constantly benched?
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2013-09-15, 02:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why is V constantly benched?
Spoiler: Out-of-context quotes
Azurite Name Inspirations
Rich is a better writer than that!
Free speech?
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2013-09-15, 03:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why is V constantly benched?
ava by me
Where the hell have you been?
Yes, sadly.
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2013-09-16, 02:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why is V constantly benched?
"Majority" does not mean "everyone."
SpoilerExcept the need to be researched explains their rarity quite easily. Also, you're still wrong - Malack's Sunlight Protection being a researched spell is quite important to the plot. It explains why he has such an extensive research library, why he is so skilled at research that he is capable of inserting a trojan horse into Durkon's custom spell, and it even threw reader's off the scent of his vampirism for months.
No, I'm telling you the opposite. Your own quote, to refresh your memory: "From the story point of view? They are badass enough that they don't get that heavily injured. Or they can have superhero-style regeneration." The former has no dramatic tension, while the latter requires suspending disbelief. Neither is satisfying.
Yes, really identical, and you already pointed out the Biblical source for this trope (making it Older Than Dirt.)
This is a recurring response from you, so I'll address it directly. No, nothing at all needs to be explained. But there is still benefit to be gained from doing so, or by basing the story on a system that already has those explanations baked in. It may not appeal to you, but it does appeal to enough others that the comic got popular in the first place.
That is a very tired trope, almost as bad as the "Evil Science" serials where theory and experimentation invariably lead to horrible outcomes. Bad Guys can Teleport because Teleporting Is Bad, or the only possible way to achieve enough power to learn it is by pacting with evil forces. Yawn.
Regardless, OotS is not that kind of setting, and thank goodness for that.
If I'm forced to choose one of your baseless assumptions, then my mymisspentwell-spent youth in such literary locales as Xanth, Valdemar, Discworld, Shannara, Midkemia, Middle-Earth, Narnia, Merovence, Klah, Westeros, Hogwarts, and "Randland" (WoT) lead me to believe it's the latter - but our cultures can't be that divergent if we both enjoy the same stick-figure D&D webcomic anyway, so I doubt that is accurate either.
But again, I'm not asking anyone to "research D&D." The beauty of the Giant's work is that you can follow what's going on even without being familiar with the game, even though some of the jokes/references may be lost on you. However, having that material to draw on does provide him benefits; for anyone whose curiosity or even suspension of disbelief actually becomes an obstacle to enjoying the comic, they can look at the game rules and say "oh, that really is how it works/that's why he did it that way." I don't think there's a lot of those people, but I see some in almost every main comic thread.
More important (at least to me) are the benefits that the rules provide to him as he writes the story. Often, constraints influence the creative process - like the artist who restricts himself to monochrome seeing how beautiful a painting he can still make, or the fashion designer who creates professional gowns on a very tight budget. We see one explicit example in Girard's boss-level illusion, which the Giant was able to get the idea from by reading the Microcosm psionic power, and simply tweak a couple of details. Another example stemmed from Xykon's speech on power, and the method he used to illustrate his point (quite forcefully) to V - a minor and often-overlooked ability of liches that nevertheless likely led to the scene being scripted the way it was, which the Giant alludes to in the DStP commentary.
As well he should be, but that doesn't mean the system is doing more harm than good, or that its drawbacks outweigh its benefits.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2013-09-17, 03:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why is V constantly benched?
And here we return to my point: The Giant's work is not designed to be understood only by those who know D&D rules. Your argument was that the avaliability of the outside sources of D&D rules makes writer's work easier as he caters to the D&D-knowing audience and doesn't explain that which would need to be explained if they didn't already know that.
So after all, the rules do not provide The Giant with a shortcut for explaining his story. He does not rely on them.
If I understand correctly what you are talking about, these people are called rules nitpickers, and there would be no obstacle if there was not an assumption that The Giant should follow an outside source.
Were you talking about something else?
Well, that's true enough. Writing within D&D rules is an interesting challenge. But it's a constraint, you yourself have said that. It does not _help_ as such.
Well, he could use that idea in a custom-made magic system too. Inspiration has no limits.
This is called a Chekhov's Gun. In this case, it only worked for those who know D&D rules and could have seen it coming. For those who do not know D&D rules it's the same as if The Giant just invented that ability on the spot. If instead of referring to a third-party material that ability was mentioned at some earlier moment of the comic - for example, when Xykon and Reddy were re-taking Xykon's old tower - it would have worked for everyone.
And inspiration knows no limits.
Well, so far it's "interesting challenge" and "making a point about the system itself" vs "creative restraint", "needlessly complicated rules", "predictability of combat", "bad in-party power balance" and "partly alienating non-DnD audience with in-jokes". There are arguments for both sides, and it probably mostly boils down to personal preferences. Have I missed anything in this summary?ava by me
Where the hell have you been?
Yes, sadly.
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2013-09-17, 04:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why is V constantly benched?
I've given you several examples contradicting this assertion already.
Those people would be obsessing over minutiae even with a totally custom magic system. The only way to stop them entirely is to make your world's magic completely arbitrary/have no set rules at all. That's not a particularly satisfying approach from either side of the pen.
Constraints can and do help. Someone walks up to you on the street and says "hey, tell me a joke" - you may have Stephen Colbert's entire repertoire memorized or watched every episode of SNL etc., you're likely going to draw a blank. Likewise with "Hey, draw me a picture" to an artist, or "write me a story" to an author, or "code something" to a programmer, no matter their skill. As you add requirements - constraints - the creative can focus and deliver quality.
Sure, but using this system is what led to that idea, and it was cool. The point is that the constraint led to something that worked.
So you admit that using a custom ability would have required additional exposition at some earlier point in the comic? Aren't you trying to argue that game rules add clutter?
- The strip's been anything but predictable so far (though with this many people reading it, somebody is bound to guess right - nothing to do about that.)
- The Giant made his feelings on "in-party power balance" clear in SSDT, via the argument between 4e Vaarsuvius and 3.5e Vaarsuvius.
- What alienation?Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2013-09-17, 04:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why is V constantly benched?
THAT'S why.
(see new comic, #919)Power equals power
The hero of any story can defy danger - but only a special hero can defy stories themselves.
Avatar by Ceika. She's great .
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2013-09-17, 05:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why is V constantly benched?
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2013-09-17, 05:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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2013-09-17, 06:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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2013-09-17, 06:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why is V constantly benched?
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2013-09-17, 06:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why is V constantly benched?
+ Durkon likely wouldn't be able to rest for entire hour anyway, so surviving until the dusk wasn't a real solution.
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2013-09-17, 06:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why is V constantly benched?
Maybe not, but V saved a lot of time and a lot of trouble for Roy. With two spells, V seems to have killed as many mooks as Roy (or, approximately, maybe another fireball evens the score). If V had been there from the start, maybe Roy wouldn't have asked Durkon for a healing potion.
I'm not saying that V saved the party or that they needed to be rescued. I just pointed out that V is overpower, compared to the rest of the Order.Last edited by Vinsfeld; 2013-09-17 at 06:44 PM.
Power equals power
The hero of any story can defy danger - but only a special hero can defy stories themselves.
Avatar by Ceika. She's great .
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2013-09-17, 06:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why is V constantly benched?
Okay, so V's saved the party 750 gp, 375 in the unlikely event that Durkon brews his own potions. And at the cost of Ishtar knows how many soldiers' lives, separating Elan and Haley definitively from the rest of the party, and probably the intervention of Tarquin, Laurin, and Miron. Great job, V, I'm sure Roy couldn't have done it without you.
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2013-09-17, 06:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why is V constantly benched?
Eh, if Durkon has enough diamond for a resurrection, that would also suffice for two Raise Deads. Nitpicking individual levels doesn't seem to matter a whole lot in this comic, so Roy and Belkar would just be inconvenienced. And that's close to the worst case scenario, no guarantee that they'd actually die.
Say that again next strip, when Tarquin one-shots V with a thrown dagger or something. After this "demonstration" (quotes because I'm still not impressed), you just know she's gonna get benched again.
I don't necessarily agree with all of this (Haley and Elan are the last people we need to wring our hands over at this point), but Zim's almost certainly right about this provoking an intervention from Tarquin. So yeah, I can easily see this as making things worse. Especially since V is sure to fail any saving throws Laurin or Miron force on her, and has zero chance against Tarquin in a fight.Last edited by TRH; 2013-09-17 at 07:02 PM.
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2013-09-17, 07:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why is V constantly benched?
Out of interest:
What are the story wrecking powers V does not have but a munchkin wizard would have?
PS:
the faustian deal V made makes a very nice kryptonite cage that goes very well with the overall story.Team Forum Nitpickers, IFCC pawn
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2013-09-17, 07:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why is V constantly benched?
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2013-09-17, 07:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why is V constantly benched?
The entirety of the Conjuration and Necromancy schools of magic, especially Conjuration, which would allow the Order to teleport wherever they wanted and to summon up meatshields to fight their battles for them. I don't know as much about Necromancy, but from V's brute force perspective, the Horrid Wilting spell would be devastating in most any battle. And Animate Dead would be nice, as well, with regards to not having to get the Order's hands dirty with something as plebeian as fighting.
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2013-09-17, 07:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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2013-09-17, 07:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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2013-09-17, 07:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why is V constantly benched?
Last edited by Vinsfeld; 2013-09-17 at 07:57 PM.
Power equals power
The hero of any story can defy danger - but only a special hero can defy stories themselves.
Avatar by Ceika. She's great .
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2013-09-17, 08:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why is V constantly benched?
I actually expect it to be annoying. I mean, how would you have reacted if Belkar had recovered from the Mark of Justice curse, gone on his thief killing rampage, only to get creamed by Bozzok, no, by Crystal, and then for the day to be saved by Celia's negotiation with Hank? That's more or less what I expect of Vaarsuvius in the next strip or two, except her one fireball was orders of magnitude less cool than Belkar's kill streak against the Thieves' Guild. I may not hate V like Zimmer does, but I pride myself on being just as pessimistic if not more so about her fortunes.
As for impressing me, V could do that if she actually managed to avoid getting neutralized in the first minute of battle, and by that I don't mean that something like a strength-draining arrow or a tanglefoot bag doesn't happen, I mean that V uses some spell to evade or defeat such an attempt, or, better yet, makes a bloody saving throw. That would be a real shocker.
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2013-09-17, 08:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why is V constantly benched?
Or, you know, V could just carry them over the flames, since s/he can fly. That's totally an option as well.
I can understand hating V, I really can. What I can't understand is failing to acknowledge anything s/he does whatsoever as helpful. That's just intellectually dishonest.Number of Character Appearances VII - To Absent Friends
Currently playing a level 20 aasimar necromancer named Zebulun Salathiel and a level 9 goliath diviner named Lo-Kag.
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2013-09-17, 08:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why is V constantly benched?
I'm sure they'd appreciate being exposed to massed crossbow fire.
I can understand hating V, I really can. What I can't understand is failing to acknowledge anything s/he does whatsoever as helpful. That's just intellectually dishonest.
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2013-09-17, 08:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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2013-09-17, 08:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why is V constantly benched?
I doubt that the soldiers who just a minute ago expressed horror at the possibility that they might injure or kill Elan will be eager to open fire on him when Vaarsuvius picks him up. The same goes for Haley if she clings to him.
I'd rather not experience "true hatred" at all, but learning that doing so requires me to be intellectually dishonest somehow makes the prospect even less enticing.Number of Character Appearances VII - To Absent Friends
Currently playing a level 20 aasimar necromancer named Zebulun Salathiel and a level 9 goliath diviner named Lo-Kag.
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2013-09-17, 08:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why is V constantly benched?
As Haley demonstrated, the soldiers with crossbows are on the lip of the crated. Not one of them expressed "horror" at the thought of shooting Elan. Are suggesting Amir is representative of the whole Division?
I'd rather not experience "true hatred" at all, but learning that doing so requires me to be intellectually dishonest somehow makes the prospect even less enticing.
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2013-09-17, 08:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why is V constantly benched?
Who? Elan and Haley? That's probably be the best defense V could acquire to mass crossbow fire since nobody wants to harm Elan lest Tarquin horrifically murder their families.
Crap, Tarquin and Roy both have hitpoints and fortitude saves on their character sheets. Guess I better stop admiring Roy.
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2013-09-17, 08:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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2013-09-17, 09:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why is V constantly benched?
Yes, I am. Elan runs through the ranks of the soldiers, asking them to take him on, and they all refuse, even after Haley starts shooting their comrades. I'm unsure why you think the soldiers will suddenly change their tune the instant Elan is picked up by a powerful wizard who has just demonstrated the ability and willingness to kill dozens of them at once.
Number of Character Appearances VII - To Absent Friends
Currently playing a level 20 aasimar necromancer named Zebulun Salathiel and a level 9 goliath diviner named Lo-Kag.
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2013-09-17, 10:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why is V constantly benched?
But Tarquin taking a rested (I mean, V cast only a few spells) V would let us take a hint of how powerful he really is. I mean, if Tarquin went there alone to try and stop V, he would have to fight the Order (minus Belkar). And now Durkon is a Vampire. But I don't see it happening really. As you pointed out, it would be annoying.
Power equals power
The hero of any story can defy danger - but only a special hero can defy stories themselves.
Avatar by Ceika. She's great .