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  1. - Top - End - #301
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    Default Re: Why is V constantly benched?

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    True hatred demands it. By ascribing admirable qualities to a horrific character, one de-emphasizes the horrificness of the character. Case in point: Tarquin.
    V is a character that had made a horrific mistake. Less than 18 seconds of her life on a really big "oops (Which itself was less than 6 of those seconds) This is not someone who had "Murder a quarter of the black dragons in the world, and everyone related to them" as a direct goal - it was someone who chose poorly on a spur-of-the-moment decision to try and protect her family from a repeat of what had just happened: In her mind at the time (At the urging of voices of the spliced souls, while operating under EXTREMELY high stress from severe sleep-deprivation and the urgency of her own family being threatened with a fate worse than even death, on top of a fiendishly-granted power trip), and given the resources available, Familicide was the best and most expedient way to prevent her family from being re-targetted by continued vengence from what, to the world, were inherently malevolent-by-nature creatures.

    Dragons live for a VERY long time, and have multiple offspring. At the time, the threat of her family being threatened again from those incensed at V for killing their mother/daughter/granddaughter/niece/great-granddaughter/mate/ex-mate/sister/close cousin/etc was EXTREMELY high, given empirical evidence.

    Motivation and intent are FAR stronger indicators of rephrensibility/admirability than the fallout of the actions that result from such.
    Last edited by Scow2; 2013-09-17 at 11:33 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #302
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    Default Re: Why is V constantly benched?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scow2 View Post
    V is a character that had made a horrific mistake.
    V is a character whose entire life set her up to perform that horrific act. Every trait, even those as basic to her identity as her elfishness (she could have chosen to be reincarnated or payed for a polymorph any object), her pursuit of wizardry (she could have chosen to be a baker), {SCRUBBED} is tainted by that one act. People in her universe should aspire to be as unlike her as possible, to the point where incidence of measures as drastic as elves paying for polymorph any object spells and wizards disjoining artifacts on purpose rise drastically.

    This is not someone who had "Murder a quarter of the black dragons in the world, and everyone related to them" as a direct goal - it was someone who chose poorly on a spur-of-the-moment decision to try and protect her family from a repeat of what had just happened: In her mind at the time (At the urging of voices of the spliced souls, while operating under EXTREMELY high stress from severe sleep-deprivation and the urgency of her own family being threatened with a fate worse than even death, on top of a fiendishly-granted power trip), and given the resources available, Familicide was the best and most expedient way to prevent her family from being re-targetted by continued vengence from what, to the world, were inherently malevolent-by-nature creatures.
    Actually, yeah, the way she explained it to the ABD at the time, killing a quarter of the black dragons on the planet was exactly what she intended. She wanted to make the ABD suffer. She did. Good for her. As for the mitigating circumstances, as has been pointed out all the physical symptoms of trance-deprivation were healed by the splice. That includes chemical imbalances in the brain caused by lack of rest. V was more mentally balanced during the splice than she had been since Kazumi's and Daigo's wedding. And as V herself pointed out, she had no right to base her decisions on the presumption that her victims were "malevolent by nature".

  3. - Top - End - #303
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    Default Re: Why is V constantly benched?

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    V is a character whose entire life set her up to perform that horrific act. Every trait, even those as basic to her identity as her elfishness (she could have chosen to be reincarnated or payed for a polymorph any object), her pursuit of wizardry (she could have chosen to be a baker), {SCRUBBED} is tainted by that one act. People in her universe should aspire to be as unlike her as possible, to the point where incidence of measures as drastic as elves paying for polymorph any object spells and wizards disjoining artifacts on purpose rise drastically.
    You're expecting a lot of moral rectitude (or Lawful Evil racism, per Kish) from a basically medieval society if you demand this to be their reaction to Vaarsuvius.

  4. - Top - End - #304
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    Default Re: Why is V constantly benched?

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    V is a character whose entire life set her up to perform that horrific act. Every trait, even those as basic to her identity as her elfishness (she could have chosen to be reincarnated or payed for a polymorph any object), her pursuit of wizardry (she could have chosen to be a baker), {SCRUBBED} is tainted by that one act. People in her universe should aspire to be as unlike her as possible, to the point where incidence of measures as drastic as elves paying for polymorph any object spells and wizards disjoining artifacts on purpose rise drastically.
    So, you're demanding and expecting the world to act even worse than Vaarsuvius ever would in response to the mistake?

    Actually, yeah, the way she explained it to the ABD at the time, killing a quarter of the black dragons on the planet was exactly what she intended. She wanted to make the ABD suffer. She did. Good for her. As for the mitigating circumstances, as has been pointed out all the physical symptoms of trance-deprivation were healed by the splice. That includes chemical imbalances in the brain caused by lack of rest. V was more mentally balanced during the splice than she had been since Kazumi's and Daigo's wedding. And as V herself pointed out, she had no right to base her decisions on the presumption that her victims were "malevolent by nature".
    What are these "Chemical Imbalances" you speak of? The splice healed the body, not the mind.

    She only realized she had no right to base her decision on the presumption that her victims were "malevolent by nature" only after she had already done so, and realized the extent of her actions.

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    Default Re: Why is V constantly benched?

    Quote Originally Posted by TRH View Post
    You're expecting a lot of moral rectitude (or Lawful Evil racism, per Kish) from a basically medieval society if you demand this to be their reaction to Vaarsuvius.
    I don't really expect any of this, because the in-comic cyphers for elvendom and arcane magic - Team Peregrine's commander and Xykon respectively - have already been set up as irredeemable. Tainted. What I propose would happen in a world of moral rectitude. It will never happen in The Order of the Stick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scow2 View Post
    What are these "Chemical Imbalances" you speak of? The splice healed the body, not the mind.
    Mind-body dualism is bunk. The soul exists in The Order of the Stick, but soul and mind are not one and the same.

    She only realized she had no right to base her decision on the presumption that her victims were "malevolent by nature" only after she had already done so, and realized the extent of her actions.
    She could and should have realized it in the moment. A reasonable person would have. The threat to her family was over, she wasn't acting in the heat of passion. She deliberately brought the ABD back to make her suffer. She wantonly cast the spell, no urgency. There's no mitigating circumstance here.
    Last edited by zimmerwald1915; 2013-09-17 at 11:53 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #306
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    Default Re: Why is V constantly benched?

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    I don't really expect any of this, because the in-comic cyphers for elvendom and arcane magic - Team Peregrine's commander and Xykon respectively - have already been set up as irredeemable. Tainted. What I propose would happen in a world of moral rectitude. It will never happen in The Order of the Stick.
    Well, your world of "Moral Rectitude" is possibly the most evil, uncaring, and horrific fictional world ever concieved.

  7. - Top - End - #307
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    Default Re: Why is V constantly benched?

    Hey, look, I just sent everyone in the main discussion here if they wanted to talk about V being useless, and this thread is way off-topic.

    This thread is not about Familicide. This thread is about V being sidelined, whether or not that's OK, how often it happens, etc. And nothing else.

    I am specifically warning everyone: Stop dragging every topic to the morality of Familicide just because V appeared on-screen. If you can't talk about Vaarsuvius without talking about Familicide, then don't talk about Vaarsuvius at all on any thread that doesn't have the word "Familicide" in the title.
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  8. - Top - End - #308
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    Default Re: Why is V constantly benched?

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Pretty much this. Roy could have gotten out of this.
    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Okay, so V's saved the party 750 gp, 375 in the unlikely event that Durkon brews his own potions. And at the cost of Ishtar knows how many soldiers' lives, separating Elan and Haley definitively from the rest of the party, and probably the intervention of Tarquin, Laurin, and Miron. Great job, V, I'm sure Roy couldn't have done it without you.
    So, two things.

    Wall of Fire does 2d6 + caster level damage to targets passing through it; about 2d6 + 15 for Vaarsuvius' wall. That's instant burny death for level 1-3 warriors, but not massively troubling for level 10+ rogues and bards. Haley and Elan are not in any meaningful way separated from the rest of the party.

    Second, there's this pair of "Roy could have handled it" and "now that Vaarsuvius is handling it, Tarquin will thrash the Order personally". If Roy couldn't handle the army, Vaarsuvius is helping. If Roy could handle the army, but Tarquin is going to intervene when it becomes clear the army will lose, Vaarsuvius is helping(as any resources saved through firey intervention are resources which can then be turned against Tarquin). If Roy could handle the army and Tarquin is not going to intervene, then Vaarsuvius is helping slightly(resources saved are resources that don't need to be replaced, though replacing them isn't a significant hindrance).

  9. - Top - End - #309
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    Default Re: Why is V constantly benched?

    Quote Originally Posted by luc258 View Post
    Out of interest:
    What are the story wrecking powers V does not have but a munchkin wizard would have?

    PS:
    the faustian deal V made makes a very nice kryptonite cage that goes very well with the overall story.
    Ah the munchkin wizard, is there nothing you can't do?

    Munchkin isn't the right term for it. Any of the classes can be made uberpowered with the right build and magic items. Wizard Munchkinism is on a totally different level that.

    Really though the problem isn't Munchkinism, as when it comes to munchkinism is that it is very obvious that the characters are trying to exploit the rules to uberpower their characters. In the case of other classes they likely have to build their character from the ground-up in ways that make it very obvious that their entire aim and purpose is towards breaking the game.

    With Wizards you don't even need to think too hard to realize that for any given situation "there's a spell for that." Truly. they are the iPhone of classes. This is built into the game itself. The DM can look at a some sort of invulnerable tank build or uberdamage build and just say "no" (and if the DM works around it those builds are pretty limited in what they can do anyway), what do you say to the wizard who just happened to have a spell that was right for the occasion?
    Last edited by Reddish Mage; 2013-09-18 at 01:21 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

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  10. - Top - End - #310
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    Default Re: Why is V constantly benched?

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Of her level (though not specialty) and off the top of my head? Planar bind an efreeti, charm it, ask it to wish a lawful good candle of invocation into your possession, chain gate solars. And that's one of the very basic tricks.
    Things like this are what make DnD stupid.

  11. - Top - End - #311
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    Lightbulb Re: Why is V constantly benched?

    My take on this is from an in-story perspective.

    1. V, as a competent wizard, is powerful. Enemy forces are likely to target him/her first as s/he poses the largest threat. In addition, some forces are likely to prepare specifically for his/her threat; the late Zz'dtri did so in his last fight with V, and it's likely that Tarquin is similarly prepared.

    2. V, as a wizard, is still a glass cannon. Once you get past his/her preparation and spells one way or another, then it's not hard to knock V out. Zz'dtri did just that in his last fight with V. Same thing when Xykon, though Xykon is genuinely powerful and stronger than V as an epic-level lich.

    3. Natural consequences of what V does. V is a power-seeker for various purposes and motivations. Power comes with a price. From the infernal time-share for the soul splices, to bearing the guilt of his/her actions.

    4. Overconfidence. Wielding so much power tends to get a person to overextend themselves, although this is more of the old V than the new, repentant and humbled V.

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    Thumbs up Re: Why is V constantly benched?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    With Wizards you don't even need to think to hard to realize that for any given situation "there's a spell for that." Truly they are the iPhone of classes.
    How times change! I'd say wizard was the "Swiss Army Knife" class. I feel old. Huh, so much for MacGyver and his favorite tool being cultural icons.
    Last edited by Messenger; 2013-09-18 at 01:10 AM.

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    Default Re: Why is V constantly benched?

    Quote Originally Posted by marq View Post
    Things like this are what make DnD stupid.
    Oh, please. That's nothing compared to munchkin tricks that take advantage of the ways D&D is a mockery of normal physics, like exploiting the ability of "everyone" to act in a given round to make a railgun out of a string of commoners, or to exploit poorly designed metamagic to destroy the planet with a third level divination spell. Munchkinry giving players ultimate power is to be expected, but the real munchkin does so in ways that make you headdesk just reading about them.

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    Default Re: Why is V constantly benched?

    V coming in at this point, with the way that V appeared and the happines that Roy expressed strongy implies that V is of significant help at this point. V being benched does have the advantage of leading to some of these cavalry moments, and V has the power to act as the cavalry, especially since OotS seems to have more armies of weak mooks than the average D&D campaign (which means fewer "bwahaha spell resistance" moments).

    That said, there is the possibility that Tarquin would not have intervened, but will intervene as a result of V's intervention, in which case V could end up making things worse. Still, that kind of story puts Tarquin at personal risk and I think he has the narrative awareness to realize that he doesn't want to personally involve himself or anyone under his personal protection right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by marq View Post
    Things like this are what make DnD stupid.
    Quote Originally Posted by TRH View Post
    Oh, please. That's nothing compared to munchkin tricks that take advantage of the ways D&D is a mockery of normal physics, like exploiting the ability of "everyone" to act in a given round to make a railgun out of a string of commoners, or to exploit poorly designed metamagic to destroy the planet with a third level divination spell. Munchkinry giving players ultimate power is to be expected, but the real munchkin does so in ways that make you headdesk just reading about them.
    Those tricks don't work. The planar binding thing can work RAW, but it's also stupid and I see no reason why a deity wouldn't send several additional solars along to tell you "hey, don't do that."

    The other two tricks actually don't work though. The railgun thing...doesn't do any additional damage. If you're going to rely on the round system, then you rely on the game rules and physics stays out of it. All that passing along an item thousands of feet in one round does is move that item thousands of feet. No lightspeed, no physics, the final handoff action is the same as the first.

    On top of that, V isn't optimized to use any broken tricks like that and doesn't have teleport or any of the really breaks the entire story spells.

    I honestly think that V is mostly benched at this point because the Order fights a lot of weaker enemies and an evoker wizard just throwing out the explosions takes a lot of the tension out of those fights. Stronger enemies, especially some climactic conflicts against the likes of Xykon et al later in the story will likely require a united effort by the entire party and V won't necessarily dominate a fight against a high level opponent in a way that eliminates the importance of the rest of the party.
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    Anarion's right on the money here.
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    Default Re: Why is V constantly benched?

    I've not read the whole thread, but IMO the perception that spellcasters are uber-powerful is an artefact of play style, not the mechanics. Nobody's worried about Roy mowing down mooks en mass. Nobody worried when Roy Great Cleaved his way through all those mummies (50+ HP each) in one go. Nobody worried when Belkar took down that hill of goblins. Nobody worried when Belkar one-shotted that assassin in Azure City. The problem is the play style tendency to 'nova' and then be useless rather than judiciously use spells throughout the day.

    You could argue that we saw this with Durkon and the attack on the Linear Guild and his subsequent defeat.

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    Default Re: Why is V constantly benched?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    I am specifically warning everyone: Stop dragging every topic to the morality of Familicide just because V appeared on-screen. If you can't talk about Vaarsuvius without talking about Familicide, then don't talk about Vaarsuvius at all on any thread that doesn't have the word "Familicide" in the title.
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    Default Re: Why is V constantly benched?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinsfeld View Post
    THANK YOU!
    Seconded. It's not going to stop all of the trolling about V in every other damned thread, but it could at least force some posters to come up with a new schtick.

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    Default Re: Why is V constantly benched?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
    I've not read the whole thread, but IMO the perception that spellcasters are uber-powerful is an artefact of play style, not the mechanics. Nobody's worried about Roy mowing down mooks en mass. Nobody worried when Roy Great Cleaved his way through all those mummies (50+ HP each) in one go. Nobody worried when Belkar took down that hill of goblins. Nobody worried when Belkar one-shotted that assassin in Azure City. The problem is the play style tendency to 'nova' and then be useless rather than judiciously use spells throughout the day.

    You could argue that we saw this with Durkon and the attack on the Linear Guild and his subsequent defeat.
    See my discussion above about the sorts of things wizards are capable. Seriously, what sort of play style does it speak to if so many posters attempt to say: "Mundanes can do lot's of damage! Therefore they are just as good if not better than spell casters!?"
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

    Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar

  19. - Top - End - #319
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    Default Re: Why is V constantly benched?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    See my discussion above about the sorts of things wizards are capable. Seriously, what sort of play style does it speak to if so many posters attempt to say: "Mundanes can do lot's of damage! Therefore they are just as good if not better than spell casters!?"
    The kind where death is seen as an effective form of crowd control.

    I mean, stepping back for a second, there are two reasons to bench V. One is combat specific: an evoker wizard smashes armies really well and OotS has way more army style fights than the average D&D game. If V always fought alongside everyone else, some types of fights would become V blows everybody up while the rest run around looking for targets. The bug slaver fight played this exact point for laughs when V used chain lightning because Elan was being annoying.

    Problem two is plot resolution. Banning conjuration solved a lot of this one, but V nevertheless possesses magic such as divination and transmutation, that can nullify some types of plot lines (e.g. the disintegration of Kubota).

    One solution is to have V be more judicious in V's use of spells. Magic can be countered or blocked (e.g. scrying failed in Windy Canyon), and V has been learning since the splice that just blowing arcane power can be ineffective. A second solution is benching, which is what we've seen in situations like the dungeon crawl or Azure City. V doesn't have to actually sit out the fight, but does need to be separated or sidelined to give others a chance to shine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Anarion's right on the money here.
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    Default Re: Why is V constantly benched?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
    The kind where death is seen as an effective form of crowd control.

    I mean, stepping back for a second, there are two reasons to bench V. One is combat specific: an evoker wizard smashes armies really well and OotS has way more army style fights than the average D&D game. If V always fought alongside everyone else, some types of fights would become V blows everybody up while the rest run around looking for targets. The bug slaver fight played this exact point for laughs when V used chain lightning because Elan was being annoying.
    That just underscores the point that the level of damage a mundane can deal doesn't matter. V has more options in how he can deal out damage. Such as "army-smashing."
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

    Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar

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    Default Re: Why is V constantly benched?

    Reportedly, V and the writer have had some creative differences and V hasn't signed on for the sixth season.
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    Default Re: Why is V constantly benched?

    Quote Originally Posted by TRH View Post
    Oh, please. That's nothing compared to munchkin tricks...
    I didn't say THOSE weren't terrible. But what he posted was was makes D&D stupid in addition to what you posted.

    Quote Originally Posted by anarion
    Those tricks don't work. The planar binding thing can work RAW, but it's also stupid and I see no reason why a deity wouldn't send several additional solars along to tell you "hey, don't do that."

    The other two tricks actually don't work though. The railgun thing...doesn't do any additional damage. If you're going to rely on the round system, then you rely on the game rules and physics stays out of it. All that passing along an item thousands of feet in one round does is move that item thousands of feet. No lightspeed, no physics, the final handoff action is the same as the first.
    The fact that people TRY to come up with them, regardless of whether a DM would find a way around it or not, is stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by anarion
    On top of that, V isn't optimized to use any broken tricks like that and doesn't have teleport or any of the really breaks the entire story spells.
    I like V (thought that should be clarified).

  23. - Top - End - #323
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    Default Re: Why is V constantly benched?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    That just underscores the point that the level of damage a mundane can deal doesn't matter. V has more options in how he can deal out damage. Such as "army-smashing."
    Sure. That's not what renders V needing to be benched though. Roy demonstrated in the Thog fight that knowledge(architecture and engineering) can have a strong say in a fight, and the fact that V is capable of solving a lot of different problems is only relevant if V actually comes up with solutions to those problems, which is not always the case.

    What I'm suggesting is that the need for benching as frequently as has occurred in this comic is in part because of the fact that V is specialized in army smashing and the Order fights weak mooks far more often than a standard D&D party would.

    Quote Originally Posted by marq View Post
    The fact that people TRY to come up with them, regardless of whether a DM would find a way around it or not, is stupid.
    I don't think there's anything wrong with theory. It's fun to try and calculate the force of a lightspeed impact based on comparing it to dynamite and the game leads to plenty of absurd things when you really push on the nitty gritty of the mechanics. The comic itself makes all sorts of jokes at the expense of the game rules, and many of them are quite funny and interesting.

    It's just that anybody that tried to use these tricks in an actual game, or as justification for something that V should be doing in the comic, needs to be smacked over the head with a DM's guide.

    Quote Originally Posted by marq View Post
    I like V (thought that should be clarified).
    Me too.
    Last edited by Anarion; 2013-09-18 at 04:11 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Anarion's right on the money here.
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    Default Re: Why is V constantly benched?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
    Sure. That's not what renders V needing to be benched though. Roy demonstrated in the Thog fight that knowledge(architecture and engineering) can have a strong say in a fight, and the fact that V is capable of solving a lot of different problems is only relevant if V actually comes up with solutions to those problems, which is not always the case.
    I have to disagree if you are making a big deal about the mook thing. Mooks are mooks no matter who is in the party. They aren't going to get a hit in except on a natural 20, they are going to go down quick, and they've fought exactly one army where V was separated rather than benched (Xykon's). Here V wasn't present for a few rounds, which gave us exactly two panel's of the other characters getting to take a few actions. The Pyramid was far more important, where V's presence could have greatly altered the situation there and put the order on even footing with the LG, prevent the destruction of the gate, and probably cause a early confrontation with Xykon.

    Also when it comes to taking advantage of terrain and creative uses of skills. Sure, any class can do that. Heck, any class with enough ranks in use magic device skill and money can ape a wizard. The fact is, a wizard can do all that and do more, and there is an expectation among D&D gamers that the wizard does it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
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    Default Re: Why is V constantly benched?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gift Jeraff View Post
    Reportedly, V and the writer have had some creative differences and V hasn't signed on for the sixth season.
    There has been a little bit of a lack of communication between V and the director as well.
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    PirateCaptain

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    Default Re: Why is V constantly benched?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gift Jeraff View Post
    Reportedly, V and the writer have had some creative differences and V hasn't signed on for the sixth season.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blisstake View Post
    There has been a little bit of a lack of communication between V and the director as well.
    Doesn't matter, though. I'm sure B (Beersubius) will be a fine addition to the team next season.
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    RedKnightGirl

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    Default Re: Why is V constantly benched?

    Quote Originally Posted by ben-zayb View Post
    Doesn't matter, though. I'm sure B (Beersubius) will be a fine addition to the team next season.
    Beersubius has an entirely distinct problem for effectiveness as a character. Namely, being really drunk on beer.

    Fortunately, contractual agreements have been finalized for the rest of the season and Vaarsuvius will likely stay on for the rest of the season book.
    Last edited by Ghost Nappa; 2013-09-19 at 09:08 PM.

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    Default Re: Why is V constantly benched?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost Nappa View Post
    Beersubius has an entirely distinct problem for effectiveness as a character. Namely, being really drunk on beer.
    : Yes, but he's a sorcerer so it doesn't really matter
    Last edited by Kornaki; 2013-09-19 at 09:22 PM.

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    Default Re: Why is V constantly benched?

    Quote Originally Posted by marq View Post
    The fact that people TRY to come up with them, regardless of whether a DM would find a way around it or not, is stupid.
    This is practically true for every game that exists.
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    Default Re: Why is V constantly benched?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blisstake View Post
    There has been a little bit of a lack of communication between V and the director as well.
    I just realized that V may still not be due to call hir agent because the Snarl arc is still going.
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