Why is V constantly benched?

[JSSheridan]

V could actually win this with one two spells right now if the party were together.

Disintegrating the wall of the crater right now would cause the entire thing to collapse. She could cast a forcecage on the party to protect them.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

V could win any fight by simply casting Disintigrate at the ground. The earth disintegrates, everyone dies, V gets all the experience in the world.

[ChaosArchon]

V could win any fight by simply casting Disintigrate at the ground. The earth disintegrates, everyone dies, V gets all the experience in the world.

Obviously Rich wouldn't let V do that but can any D&D players tell me if thats even viable (as in what the limits of disintegrate are) and/or if someone has done this and what happened afterwards?

[ti'esar]

The only reason to keep her around would be to pander to her fans, and the Giant is better than that.

Then what is your argument for why V is still in the story?

[skaddix]

Well its good s/he is missing otherwise Xykon and Team Evil would have killed the OOTS.

As for the current problem, V has no chance against Tarquin and 2 higher level spellcasters.

[ranagrande]

V could win any fight by simply casting Disintigrate at the ground. The earth disintegrates, everyone dies, V gets all the experience in the world.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm

When used on an object, Disintegrate can destroy up to 10 cubic feet.

If the OotS world is the same size as our earth, Vaarsuvius could, in fact, completely obliterate it using the Disintegrate spell.

V would only have to cast it about 3,825,380,376,576,000,000,000 times.

[Sutremaine]

The earth disintegrates, everyone dies,

More like 'everyone in a 10-foot square takes 1d6 falling damage'.

[TRH]

You know, it really does irritate me that pretty much the only way for the OOTS to not take casualties in the next strip or two will involve Durkon completely stealing the show with Thor's Might (or whatever it's renamed) and Vampire powers. Why is it that that's A-ok but the mere threat of V doing similar is cause to sideline her for an entire book?

The way I see it, it's less about functionality or potential story-breaking at this point, and more about enforcing an insanely introverted character arc. When it comes down to it, it's just her with Blackwing and the Fiends as shoulder angel and devil(s), respectively. It's not so much boring as it is wasteful, I think. Whether it's prank wars with Belkar or tutoring Elan, V's character interactions have consistently added a lot of zest to the story, so why haven't see seen any of this since War & XP's? It made sense in DSTP, when the isolation was part of the plot, but it's continued afterwards for no good reason.

Maybe this will all pay off when the Fiends take center stage, I don't know. What I do know is that we're missing a great character in the meantime. Plus, at what point has V been gone for so long that nothing would do her return justice? I don't know the answer to this, either, but I do know that it will be very, very easy not to try.

[ChaosArchon]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm

When used on an object, Disintegrate can destroy up to 10 cubic feet.

If the OotS world is the same size as our earth, Vaarsuvius could, in fact, completely obliterate it using the Disintegrate spell.

V would only have to cast it about 3,825,380,376,576,000,000,000 times.

Thanks for the info! Although thats unfortunate, as it would be hilarious in a campaign for a party wizard to just say **** it and disintegrate the world :P

[TRH]

Thanks for the info! Although thats unfortunate, as it would be hilarious in a campaign for a party wizard to just say **** it and disintegrate the world :P

That's what the Locate City Bomb is for: http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.co...856019/#856461

[Sir_Leorik]

You know, it really does irritate me that pretty much the only way for the OOTS to not take casualties in the next strip or two will involve Durkon completely stealing the show with Thor's Might (or whatever it's renamed) and Vampire powers. Why is it that that's A-ok but the mere threat of V doing similar is cause to sideline her for an entire book?

Two reasons:

1) Durkon was more of a healbot in the past; the only major time that his powers saved the day in combat before was in Cliffport;

2) Durkon, even as a Vampire, is humble. Vaarsuvius is many things, but she is not humble. Plus Durkon has the whole self-sacrifice angle, where he died in single combat with Malack and was Sired as a Vampire Thrall. I'd say Durkon can get away with a little showboating after taking a Blood Drain for the team.

[Irenaeus]

Despite all possible reasons for separating him from the rest, his tribulations right now are very much an integral part of his own personal arc, and not the OOTS version of random GM pettiness.

Also, I might have missed something, but isn't V quite likely dead? If so, "benched" seems a little bit of an understatement, even in the OOTSverse.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Oh, also, in the fight for Azure City, the poisoned arrow hit the earth, so the Earth has been poisoned and will certainly die from that. How much damage does the earth take per round; and how many rounds does it take to destroy the earth?

Also, Roy assaulted the ground with his body in that same fight, doing damage to the earth.

[jidasfire]

Regrettably, I think it's fair to say that this is part of the price V paid for the Soul Splice. For all that it was useful, the IFCC have exacted a characteristically unfair price for their services. While V was able to rescue her family, save the Azurite fleet, help rescue O-Chul and and delay Xykon, at least as much bad was the result. Part of that price, we now know, is that the Fiends can take him out of the game two more times after this. While I imagine it's frustrating knowing that V could probably save the day in several of these situations, that is perhaps precisely why our favorite gender-ambiguous mage is currently out of commission.

Still, I wouldn't worry overmuch. No one in the Order gets neglected for too long. It's clear enough that Rich cares a great deal about the entire cast and works on giving them all solid character development as well as chances to be useful in the story. If V isn't at the forefront right now, that's okay, because she's had a fair bit to do already this arc, not to mention being center stage last time. Right now, Elan and Haley are at the forefront, with Durkon, Belkar, and Roy getting some decent moments as well. Anyway, I would be very surprised if V doesn't eventually have a reckoning with Lee, Nero and Cedrik somwhere down the line. You want to see some awesome magic being thrown around, I'm guessing that will be the moment for it.
Edit: Afterthought on that, I would be most amused if a strip in that battle was called "V for Vendetta."

[TRH]

Two reasons:
1) Durkon was more of a healbot in the past; the only major time that his powers saved the day in combat before was in Cliffport;

I dunno, I think I can enumerate a couple others:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0561.html

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0859.html

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0871.html

2) Durkon, even as a Vampire, is humble. Vaarsuvius is many things, but she is not humble.

I'd say it's a bit too simplistic to assume Vaarsuvius is the same loudmouthed monologuer we started out with. Even if it mattered (which it doesn't, since she hasn't had a meaningful conversation with any of the others in a good 200 strips or more), she's far too busy with her own personal subplot at this point to be a pompous windbag like before.

Plus Durkon has the whole self-sacrifice angle, where he died in single combat with Malack and was Sired as a Vampire Thrall. I'd say Durkon can get away with a little showboating after taking a Blood Drain for the team.

Honestly, I'd call that swan-song fight one of Durkon's cooler moments by itself, so showboating begets showboating, is what you're saying? By that logic, what is V entitled to for saving O-Chul from Xykon for no other reason than that it was the right thing to do?

If V isn't at the forefront right now, that's okay, because she's had a fair bit to do already this arc, not to mention being center stage last time.

Wait, seriously? Have we been reading the same comic? Because from where I'm standing, V's done jack all since breaking even with regards to Xykon doing anything.

[Sir_Leorik]

I dunno, I think I can enumerate a couple others:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0561.html

Okay, that one doesn't count. The whole bit with the Orcs was resolved by Elan's pie-eating ability, and their conversion to worship of Giggles!

But, I will concede:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0859.html

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0871.html

But in both cases, Durkon does what he needs to do, with no bravado, no bragging, only a simple sense of humility, duty and dare I say piety?

I'd say it's a bit too simplistic to assume Vaarsuvius is the same loudmouthed monologuer we started out with. Even if it mattered (which it doesn't, since she hasn't had a meaningful conversation with any of the others in a good 200 strips or more), she's far too busy with her own personal subplot at this point to be a pompous windbag like before.

She's not the same Elf she was before, but she has a long way to go. Right now she seems to prefer wallowing in self-pity, which helps no one. And she can still show flashes of the old Vaarsuvius, especially when she was dumped into the Semi-Elemental Plane of Ranch Dressing with Yukyuk.

Honestly, I'd call that swan-song fight one of Durkon's cooler moments by itself, so showboating begets showboating, is what you're saying? By that logic, what is V entitled to for saving O-Chul from Xykon for no other reason than that it was the right thing to do?

Except that Durkon doesn't showboat. Even as a newly freed Vampire he hasn't exactly been bragging. While he told Roy about Z's death and Nale's escape, Roy needed to know that. And he didn't showboat in the fight with the Silicon Elemental; he and the Barbed Devil joined the rest of the OotS in beating the thing to death. So if Durkon is going to use his new powers to save everyone's bacon from Tarquin, I don't see him suddenly gloating about it.

[Kish]

By that logic, what is V entitled to for saving O-Chul from Xykon for no other reason than that it was the right thing to do?

Being able to trance again.

(Benefit contingent on subject not thinking about the whole committed quasi-genocide thing.)

[TRH]

snip

Alright, I think I understand your position now, but if we're treating this as a distinct trend, then it doesn't track V's character well. By your accounting, the combination of V's power and arrogance would cause her to usurp the story if left unchecked. But if we see the sidelining solely as a corrective measure for that, then we'd expect it to happen more often earlier in the comic, when her ego was most overt. If we're being fair, we'd expect more of this near the start of Paladin Blues, since a lot of DCF predated the intricate plotting and creative decisions that came after. But that's not what happens: before Azure City, we had V end entire combats in instances like this:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0145.html,

this: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html,

and (much later) this: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0397.html

It's not until the big battle that waylaying V became a trope, and it hasn't gotten better as V's tried to rein herself in, it's gotten worse. This makes a lot more sense if we use my running theory, that it's about V's arc and nothing (or comparatively little) else.

And I'm not a fan of her arc as it's been going. It's...monotonous would be a good word, moreso than straight boring. There's very few characters involved, and it detracts from other parts of the story (especially serialized like it is now, since time's more of a commodity now then it will be when everything's in book form) I don't expect everyone (or anyone in particular really) to agree with me, but I feel it needs throwing out there.

[jidasfire]

Wait, seriously? Have we been reading the same comic? Because from where I'm standing, V's done jack all since breaking even with regards to Xykon doing anything.

Let's see. In this arc, Vaarsuvius has come to understand blasting away at problems doesn't solve them, has begun working on her temper, decided that her family is better off without her, worked out through hearing one word that Girard had an organization backing him, defeated an opponent whose entire build was designed to kill her, began to understand the true enormity and true depths of her crimes in the last arc and thus taken a decent step towards redemption, outwitted Qarr (admittedly not the greatest challenge, but still) and figured out where Roy was headed, and nearly stopped Roy from playing into the Fiends' hands, failing only because they personally intervened.

I don't know what you consider "jack all" but it doesn't seem to mean the same thing to you as it does to me. Unless you're talking about flat out winning on her own, and considering the point of the entire last book for V was that she can't, V has done plenty.

[TRH]

Let's see. In this arc, Vaarsuvius has come to understand blasting away at problems doesn't solve them, has begun working on her temper, decided that her family is better off without her, worked out through hearing one word that Girard had an organization backing him, defeated an opponent whose entire build was designed to kill her, began to understand the true enormity and true depths of her crimes in the last arc and thus taken a decent step towards redemption, outwitted Qarr (admittedly not the greatest challenge, but still) and figured out where Roy was headed, and nearly stopped Roy from playing into the Fiends' hands, failing only because they personally intervened.

I don't know what you consider "jack all" but it doesn't seem to mean the same thing to you as it does to me. Unless you're talking about flat out winning on her own, and considering the point of the entire last book for V was that she can't, V has done plenty.

Well, most of that's character development, and it's generally slow and incremental stuff. Not that that's a bad thing, but the fact that people are still all too willing to consider her the same mouthy and mindless blaster-wizard as she was a few hundred strips ago would suggest that these steps have failed to significantly alter our collective perception of the elf. Might be a bit harsh and premature to call the development a failure, then, but I'm still waiting on a payoff for all of it. Failing that, I'd settle for her getting to be a part of the party again.

Oh, and in no meaningful sense did V win against Z. The fact that she was only saved from eternal torment by Z's double-dealing familiar should make that pretty clear.

[Blisstake]

Slightly longer answer: because she is too powerful to be interesting.

I don't see how those two are related at all. A character can be powerful and interesting. I find V interesting, both character-wise and combat-wise. V has grown as a character, and during encounters has the most interesting options available in a fight. V vs Xykon, Z, and Qarr's buddy I think were some of the most interesting battles in this series (well, maybe the latest Roy vs Thog wins )

[Chantelune]

You mean the time when she threatened to sic the dragon on the party if they didn't cater to her every whim, then executed it while it was helpless thus beginning the arc that culminated in familicide? Some help.

You mean after the party were giving sign of forgetting that V was around, giving credit for her actions to Elan ? She just made sure that the party wouldn't forget to dispel her curse. And do you really think she would have actually let the dragon kill them when she endeavor to help them as soon as she realised that she had a mean that have even a 0.0001% chance to be effective ? Being almost killed in the process ?

And the "helpless dragon" was regaining his senses and considering how it was tearing the party appart when she was in lizard form, a pre-emptive strike was the logical move. But sure, it would have been so much better for her to just let the whole party get eaten.

Which didn't matter to anyone but V. Both elves were out of spells and despite packing scimitars Z was probably less of a melee threat than Elan to anyone but V.

Sabine only mattered to Haley at the time, I don't see you complaining about her chasing her away by using two arrows, not remembering which one to use. That fight was pretty much a one on one for everyone of them, save Roy and Elan because Nale decided to switch opponent.

See, the way I read that scene, Z toyed with V, then put her down when the situation got serious. V had her bacon saved by Qarr.

The fact that Z was clearly bleeding out, given how his last action let him unconscious mean that the situation only got "serious" to you ? V ended up in another plane, Z unconscious, I'd call that a tie myself.

V's and O-Chul's not being present at Girard's Gate gave Xykon a reason to teleport immediately to Kraggor's Tomb, giving Team Evil a massive head start and probably letting them blindside O-Chul and Lien.

Sure, it's V's fault that Xykon teleport away and the rest of the order didn't attack them to prevent them for leaving. They chould have decided to sacrifice themselves so to give O-Chul and Lien more time to prepare. It's fine for them, but not for V...

Matter of perspective, all that stuff.

[Kish]

The fact that Z was clearly bleeding out, given how his last action let him unconscious mean that the situation only got "serious" to you ? V ended up in another plane, Z unconscious, I'd call that a tie myself.

And, in fact, Zz'dtri only did as well as he did because Vaarsuvius blew her/his best save.

No, I do not believe we were supposed to take away, from "Kobold beat me. Not you," that the Plane Shift amounted to, "PSYCHE! No one beat me!" It was a last-ditch effort to snatch--a draw--from the jaws of defeat.

[zimmerwald1915]

Then what is your argument for why V is still in the story?

As threads like this one demonstrate, she kind of isn't. In the past I've argued that V's story be spun off into a separate comic if it must continue, because it just doesn't matter to The Order of the Stick anymore.

I don't see how those two are related at all. A character can be powerful and interesting.

Thank you for invoking Stormwind, but you're missing the point. I don't really care how interesting a character seems on his or her own. V specifically has the power to render the story uninteresting by her intervention in it.

You mean after the party were giving sign of forgetting that V was around, giving credit for her actions to Elan ? She just made sure that the party wouldn't forget to dispel her curse. And do you really think she would have actually let the dragon kill them when she endeavor to help them as soon as she realised that she had a mean that have even a 0.0001% chance to be effective ? Being almost killed in the process ?

And the "helpless dragon" was regaining his senses and considering how it was tearing the party appart when she was in lizard form, a pre-emptive strike was the logical move. But sure, it would have been so much better for her to just let the whole party get eaten.

What shameless whitewashing.

Sabine only mattered to Haley at the time, I don't see you complaining about her chasing her away by using two arrows, not remembering which one to use. That fight was pretty much a one on one for everyone of them, save Roy and Elan because Nale decided to switch opponent.

As she demonstrated when she incapacitated Durkon, Sabine was a threat to the whole group, not just Haley. Z, with his terrible to-hit and damage, could at best have provided Nale or Thog a flanking buddy with his scimitars.

[quote\The fact that Z was clearly bleeding out, given how his last action let him unconscious mean that the situation only got "serious" to you ? V ended up in another plane, Z unconscious, I'd call that a tie myself.[/quote]
Whereas I'd say that V failed to overcome the challenge that Z presented. That is a loss for her.

[Goosefeather]

You mean the time when she threatened to sic the dragon on the party if they didn't cater to her every whim, then executed it while it was helpless thus beginning the arc that culminated in familicide? Some help.

You do remember that the dragon had just eaten Haley? And that the party being there fighting the dragon in the first place was a decision due to Roy, not V? Had V not been there, the party would still have gone to the starmetal cave and, oh wait, fallen to their deaths. Had they somehow avoided doing so, they would still have faced the dragon, and either been TPK'd or killed it, just barely, by themselves - inevitably still drawing the ire of the ABD.

You may dislike the character, and that's your prerogative, but deliberately twisting comic events in an attempt to back up your position in fact devalues your argument.

[The Pilgrim]

Well, since V is the most powerful member of the Party, by far... it comes to sense that any enemy of the Order will first target her. Add that Wizards tend to be very fragile when caught flat-footed.

[Ramien]

Despite all possible reasons for separating him from the rest, his tribulations right now are very much an integral part of his own personal arc, and not the OOTS version of random GM pettiness.

Also, I might have missed something, but isn't V quite likely dead? If so, "benched" seems a little bit of an understatement, even in the OOTSverse.

The IFCC stated that V's body would be shielded from all harm while V's soul was their guest. There might be some rubble to blast through afterwards, but V's body is safe.

[Irenaeus]

The IFCC stated that V's body would be shielded from all harm while V's soul was their guest. There might be some rubble to blast through afterwards, but V's body is safe.

I knew there had to be something I had missed. Thanks.

[Bulldog Psion]

Well, I think it's supposed to be frustrating that V is out of the action for the moment. After all, the fiends aren't doing this to produce great results and ice cream for everybody.

[Chantelune]

What shameless whitewashing.

As I said, perspective. Roy decided to leave Elan to the bandit and couldn't believe that the rest of the party would risk their live to save him and even then, turn their back on them.

Roy even threathen an innocent weapon seller that if he could buy a weapon, he would use it on him right away.

Don't see people complaining about Roy being baaaaad !

And yes, Roy did save the day in the end. Just as V didn't actually sic the dragon on the team and save them from that dragon that was outmatching them.

As she demonstrated when she incapacitated Durkon, Sabine was a threat to the whole group, not just Haley. Z, with his terrible to-hit and damage, could at best have provided Nale or Thog a flanking buddy with his scimitars.

If V wasn't there at the time, you really think Z would have just sit still and didn't attack the rest of the group ? Z would have been able to then help his group and a wizard supporting the fighters would have been devastating.

Whereas I'd say that V failed to overcome the challenge that Z presented. That is a loss for her.

It was mentioned that not only Z prepared his whole daily spell slots just to counter and face V, but also tailored his build just to be able to defeat V (moar magic resistance ?). And was actually prepared as he was the ambushing one. V was attacked without notice, didn't prepare her spells with fighting Z in mind and I doubt she tailored her build just to face Z. Even when fearing an ambush, V was sure at the time that Z was out of the "game"

In those circumstances, that Z was barely able to snatch a draw on his last spurr beside having all the good cards at hand is not what I'd call a victory for him. Especially since he was then unconscious and couldn't help his party either. Even calling that a draw can be arguable given the peculiar circumstances of that fight, but I just can't call it V's victory either as she ended up in another plane and thus, unable to provide help during the rest of the fight. Still, Z wasted his best shot at taking out V here.