Why is V constantly benched?

[lio45]

Owing to IFCC just makes vir not do something ve might, but if ve weren't there in the first place, ve wouldn't do it anyway!

FWIW, that sentence (and others like it) would be a lot less painful to the eyes in this very simple format:

"Owing to IFCC just makes V not do something V might, but if V weren't there in the first place, V wouldn't do it anyway!"

[sims796]

Ok, random question, but is it at all possible for Xykon to have access to Wish, outside of story reasons?

[Kish]

Ok, random question, but is it at all possible for Xykon to have access to Wish, outside of story reasons?

All his automatic level 9 spells known are accounted for, but he could have the epic feat that gives him two more, so yes, it's theoretically possible, "outside of story reasons." Why?

[zimmerwald1915]

Ok, random question, but is it at all possible for Xykon to have access to Wish, outside of story reasons?

Possible? Sure. He'd need to spend a feat to learn it (all his "normal" level 9 spells are accounted for AFAIK), or he'd need to find some creature to scribe a scroll or craft a staff of it, or he'd need Redcloak to call an Outsider with it, but it's possible.

EDIT: ninja'd.

[sims796]

All his automatic level 9 spells known are accounted for, but he could have the epic feat that gives him two more, so yes, it's theoretically possible, "outside of story reasons." Why?

Just wondering. Thinking of the possibilities of what he would do with that type of power. Thanks, you two.

[137beth]

Also, even without feats, Xykon has more than enough wealth to get Wish from a scroll.

As to V, the only thing V has done which actually HINDERED the OOTS was kill the draketooths. That's it. Everything else zimmerwald1915 keeps saying makes V a 'liability' is V being of minimal help. In order for V to be "more a liability than an asset", then killing the draketooths would need to have caused more harm than everything else V has ever done. Including preventing multiple TPKs (yes, including the adult black dragon), the stuff in the battle for Azure city, killing a CR 20 devil that probably would have TPKed the order AND possibly Hinjo...
yea, sorry, I'm not seeing it.

[zimmerwald1915]

As to V, the only thing V has done which actually HINDERED the OOTS was kill the draketooths. That's it.

Some "it". Killing the Draketooths led directly to V isolating herself from the party and being unable to help fend off the Linear Guild, to Belkar's incapacitation, and to Durkon's death and vampirization. She is proximately responsible for all the practical diffidulty and emotional suffering the Order has endured since entering Girard's pyramid.

Everything else zimmerwald1915 keeps saying makes V a 'liability' is V being of minimal help. In order for V to be "more a liability than an asset", then killing the draketooths would need to have caused more harm than everything else V has ever done. Including preventing multiple TPKs (yes, including the adult black dragon), the stuff in the battle for Azure city, killing a CR 20 devil that probably would have TPKed the order AND possibly Hinjo...
yea, sorry, I'm not seeing it.

The dragon incident's been discussed, but not from this angle. Would it have been a TPK but for V? I don't think so. Things didn't look good for Haley, certainly, but Roy, Durkon, and Belkar could have carried the day and recovered enough of Haley to resurrect - no doubt plundering the dragon's hoard for the diamonds like the murderhoboes they are. So V saved the Order in that encounter about 5000 gp and some emotional anguish.

V barely affected the course of the battle. The elementals would have been defeated eventually, and any further damage would have been gratuitous; they did what they needed to do. Any soldiers, giant or not, would have been reaped by the Death Knight at about the same time. The dragon head would have fallen on it at the same time regardless of V's presence. V did help Elan keep the refugees from getting slaughtered, so let's give her credit for saving 200 out of 400 lives.

The devil's easy. Its orders were to make "all mortals on the island dead". It clearly wanted to be elsewhere, carrying out more important tasks, so it can be stated with some confidence that it would leave once all the mortals were off theisland. Hinjo and company could have run, and probably would have eventually (and while I can't prove this, I believe it was V, an XP hound at that point in the story, that convinced them to stay and buff instead of running, or forced their hand by just starting to buff herself without consulting the rest of them). Again, V accomplishes nothing beyond maybe saving a few thousand gp worth of diamonds. Let's be generous and say 15,000 gp and some pain and anguish.

To recap, but for V the Order would be something like 20,000 gp richer, and while the first few books would have been darker, the last two would have been much lighter. My feeling is that what the Order have suffered in this book thanks to V's actions far outweighs the suffering they avoided thanks to V in earlier books.

[Imgran]

Shouldn't anyone reading this comic (or any work of fiction) be allowed to bring whatever moral system they like to it?

No. Not really. There is such a thing as an objective right and wrong, even if it can be clouded by various situations. If you add a "within reason" to that I'll be more inclined to climb on board. And of course, far be it from me to chastise anyone else's head-canon, since that's something we all do with any work of fiction. But when you weigh in on an issue of ethics raised by the comic, one with a legitimate, well-precedented answer repeatedly verified from sources around the globe, established by logic, law, and legal precedent alike, and your position is in direct contrast with that precedented answer, other people get to call you on it.

I do apologize for the level of emphasis I put on my point, but under the circumstances, I was responding to someone with which the not-listen was absolutely palpable. Sometimes you just have to make sure you get through.

D&D, and works based on it, has an alignment system that is arguably medieval for game play but I don't see how that leads to the conclusion that a reader or player analyzing the world in a different manner is somehow wrong.

Attempting to analyze the world in a different manner is not why that poster was wrong. That poster was wrong because they took a position on a topic with established legal and ethical material covering it (self-defense) that was itself provably wrong, and then proceeded to go to the wall for it. It is well established that simply being armed and in the wrong place are not, all by themselves, a statement of threat. Conversely, the result of a well publicized legal case here in the States reconfirms that the notion of being unarmed in a public space does not, all by itself, convey the absence of a threat, so it does cut both ways.

To paraphrase Xykon, what constitutes a threat? Well, a threat constitutes a threat. And a threat can take many forms, and be many things, but the mere presence of a weapon is not one of them. An inferred intent to use that weapon must be present in order for self defense to hold up regardless of jurisdiction. This is true whether you're in an area that has a codified "stand your ground" law or a codified "duty to retreat" law, and even in places where possession of a weapon is illegal. All that differs is the action permitted in the presence of a threat.

[shamgar001]

So at this stage saving someone's life isn't an accomplishment, because it only saves some gold and emotional anguish. Really, that takes a lot of the heroism in this strip off the table.

[Imgran]

Some "it". Killing the Draketooths led directly to V isolating herself from the party and being unable to help fend off the Linear Guild, to Belkar's incapacitation, and to Durkon's death and vampirization. She is proximately responsible for all the practical diffidulty and emotional suffering the Order has endured since entering Girard's pyramid.

Mm. Two of the three biggest examples you provide I disagree with. Durkon's death and Belkar's incapacitation would have gone as scheduled even if V was with the party -- unless you think Vaarsuvius would have volunteered to follow Durkon in search of Belkar. I can think of several good reasons why he wouldn't, and none of them even have anything to do with the contempt V feels personally for Belkar. The Linear Guild was still at large, and a spellcaster going it alone would be very vulnerable, even aside from any surviving Draketooth traps. Most likely if he was with the party, i imagine he would have remained near the heavily-enchanted door to try to help Haley disarm it. That's where he would have decided he was most needed.

Besides, Malack is easily a match for V. I can't see V getting into it with Malack going any better than Durkon, especially since V is even more incapacitated by being grappled than Durkon was.

As for fending off the LG, it depends on how well you think his Elven wizard's constitution would have stood up to Z's Vitriolic Spheres. If he handled it any better than the Kobold tracker he might survive, but incapacitation is, I'd think, a distinct possibility with the first sphere and a near certainty after the second.

In short, V's glass-cannon nature does not make your solution-to-all-problems theory hold up particularly well.

[Paseo H]

As for V being a liability b/c of the dead Draketooths:

Can you really be sure that they would have 1. Listened to reason with regard to the gate, Xykon, and Tarquin, and 2. If yes, would they have been any help defending against Xykon or Tarquin's army?

[zimmerwald1915]

Mm. Two of the three biggest examples you provide I disagree with.

Let's assume for a moment that, apart from not casting familicide, everything proceeds exactly as it did in the comic. So V still teleports the fleet, looses the splices to Xykon, the MitD still rescues her and O-Chul, they still take a boat to the Western Continent etc. The first major change stemming from leaving the Draketooths alive comes right at the beginning of the book, when they get the heuristic illusion's warning that it's been activated. Presumably, they scry the area and see V's and Elan's message, which they weren't able to do in the prime timeline due to being dead. So they've activated their defenses. They also know that the person who warned them was named "Elan".

Over the days the Order spends in Bleedingham, the Draketooths have the opportunity to scry on this "Elan" person and get a measure of his character. Chaotic as they come? Check. Willing to believe the best of his family and give them the benefit of the doubt? Check. Any associates worth worrying about? Well, there's that big bald fellow and the dwarf...

Again, we're assuming everything as far as the Order is concerned is proceeding as normal. So the Order beats the Linear Guild to the Windy Canyon...only this time the Draketooths are there to greet them. Here's where the ramifications of our point of divergence really start to crop up. From this point on, there's no reason to believe that the Order will necessarily be in a position to be ambushed by the Linear Guild in the same way as they were in the prime timeline. The Draketooths might take them prisoner and sequester them underground, possibly in the phantasm room. The Draketooths might try and kill them. The Draketooths might decide to hear them out. In any case, when Order meets Guild, it will almost certainly not be at the same time and in the same way, because of the influence the Draketooths, as autonomous beings with free will, will have on the situation.

But in the prime timeline, the Draketooths didn't get to do any of that. They were dead. All the actions stemming from their deaths can be traced back to V, their murderer.

As for V being a liability b/c of the dead Draketooths:

Can you really be sure that they would have 1. Listened to reason with regard to the gate, Xykon, and Tarquin, and 2. If yes, would they have been any help defending against Xykon or Tarquin's army?

I'm afraid I typed out the above before I saw your post, so it only obliquely answers your first question and hedges at that. I am fairly confident the Draketooths would have been effective against the Linear Guild, though not against Xykon...but remember, had they been around to see V's and Elan's message, they would have been warned about Xykon and would have had days or weeks of time (unlike Hinjo) to prepare possible contingencies up to and including destroying the Gate.

[Amphiox]

Some "it". Killing the Draketooths led directly to V isolating herself from the party and being unable to help fend off the Linear Guild, to Belkar's incapacitation, and to Durkon's death and vampirization. She is proximately responsible for all the practical diffidulty and emotional suffering the Order has endured since entering Girard's pyramid.

On the other hand, the ultra paranoid, and possibly evil, Draketooth clan might have straight up and murdered the entire Order the moment they laid eyes on them, or the moment one of them accidentally let slip that they were even ever so slightly acquainted with the Sapphire Guard paladins.

In which case V has actually saved everyone's lives.

[zimmerwald1915]

In which case V has actually saved everyone's lives.

Not everyone's

[137beth]

Some "it". Killing the Draketooths led directly to V isolating herself from the party and being unable to help fend off the Linear Guild, to Belkar's incapacitation, and to Durkon's death and vampirization. She is proximately responsible for all the practical diffidulty and emotional suffering the Order has endured since entering Girard's pyramid.

So, your argument is that V was a liability because V was not there to help fight the linear guild? That in no way makes V a liability, it makes V not an instant-win. V not being in the party to begin with also means V wouldn't be there to help

[zimmerwald1915]

So, your argument is that V was a liability because V was not there to help fight the linear guild? That in no way makes V a liability, it makes V not an instant-win. V not being in the party to begin with also means V wouldn't be there to help

No, I'm saying V was a liability because her killing the Draketooths caused her not to be with the Order. If she had been separated from the party for some reason other than her own actions (for example, Roy not sending Belkar and Durkon to retrieve her), then she wouldn't be to blame for her absence. In this case? She is.

And yes, there is a difference between missing an asset you thought you had and relied on and never having that asset in the first place. In the first case, a team leader like Roy will make his plans on the assumption that he'll have an asset at his disposal, and those plans will be disrupted if it is not. The switch to the contingency plan will take some time and some reshuffling of other assets. Contrariwise, if the leader never assumes he has that asset at his disposal in the first place, he is likely to evolve a plan that is similar to what his contingency plan for losing that asset would be, but putting that plan into practice will be more efficient and less confusing for the rest of the team.

[Goosefeather]

V barely affected the course of the battle. The elementals would have been defeated eventually, and any further damage would have been gratuitous; they did what they needed to do. Any soldiers, giant or not, would have been reaped by the Death Knight at about the same time. The dragon head would have fallen on it at the same time regardless of V's presence. V did help Elan keep the refugees from getting slaughtered, so let's give her credit for saving 200 out of 400 lives.

Nah, V's actions significantly slowed the invading force. Many of the soldiers slowing the advance on the walls would have been killed by the elementals had V not got rid of them. The soldiers on the ground wouldn't have been reaped by the Death Knight because they'd already have been killed by goblins (who would consequently already be inside the city). Without V, there wouldn't have been time to get that last boat away, as it'd already have been swarmed by goblins, and Hinjo, Captain Axehand, Elan, Durkon and Lien, plus every single refugee on Hinjo's junk, would have been slaughtered.

I submit that this leap of logic is no greater than that of 'without V everyone would have run away from the demon on the island and it wouldn't have done anything about it'.

[Razanir]

Simple. V is being given a break to regain vis sanity. 900 strips is far too long to have gone on believing V has a pet bird.

[Cavenskull]

On the other hand, the ultra paranoid, and possibly evil, Draketooth clan might have straight up and murdered the entire Order the moment they laid eyes on them, or the moment one of them accidentally let slip that they were even ever so slightly acquainted with the Sapphire Guard paladins...

The fact that they set off a trap that only a paladin knew the location of would be enough for that.

[zimmerwald1915]

Nah, V's actions significantly slowed the invading force. Many of the soldiers slowing the advance on the walls would have been killed by the elementals had V not got rid of them.

Doesn't match what we were shown the elementals doing. The elemtentals we saw on the walls were tearing at the masonry, not killing soldiers. If any soldiers died to the barrage, it was to falls, being hit by flying or falling masonry, or being hit by the elementals as they landed.

The soldiers on the ground wouldn't have been reaped by the Death Knight because they'd already have been killed by goblins (who would consequently already be inside the city).

Again, doesn't match the battle plan we were shown. The death knight's plan was to create a ramp of dead hobgoblins so it could ride in and get among the defenders (which I'm sure appealed to Redcloak at the time it was formulated as it involved mass hobgoblin death). If anything, the lack of giant soldiers would have slowed this plan down, because normal Azurites wouldn't have been able to kill so many hobgoblins so quickly.

Without V, there wouldn't have been time to get that last boat away, as it'd already have been swarmed by goblins, and Hinjo, Captain Axehand, Elan, Durkon and Lien, plus every single refugee on Hinjo's junk, would have been slaughtered.

I already granted this in my response to 137ben. Rub it in, why don'tcha

[Imgran]

Let's assume for a moment that, apart from not casting familicide, everything proceeds exactly as it did in the comic. So V still teleports the fleet, looses the splices to Xykon, the MitD still rescues her and O-Chul, they still take a boat to the Western Continent etc. The first major change stemming from leaving the Draketooths alive comes right at the beginning of the book, when they get the heuristic illusion's warning that it's been activated. Presumably, they scry the area and see V's and Elan's message, which they weren't able to do in the prime timeline due to being dead. So they've activated their defenses. They also know that the person who warned them was named "Elan".

Over the days the Order spends in Bleedingham, the Draketooths have the opportunity to scry on this "Elan" person and get a measure of his character. Chaotic as they come? Check. Willing to believe the best of his family and give them the benefit of the doubt? Check. Any associates worth worrying about? Well, there's that big bald fellow and the dwarf...

Again, we're assuming everything as far as the Order is concerned is proceeding as normal. So the Order beats the Linear Guild to the Windy Canyon...only this time the Draketooths are there to greet them. Here's where the ramifications of our point of divergence really start to crop up. From this point on, there's no reason to believe that the Order will necessarily be in a position to be ambushed by the Linear Guild in the same way as they were in the prime timeline. The Draketooths might take them prisoner and sequester them underground, possibly in the phantasm room. The Draketooths might try and kill them. The Draketooths might decide to hear them out. In any case, when Order meets Guild, it will almost certainly not be at the same time and in the same way, because of the influence the Draketooths, as autonomous beings with free will, will have on the situation.

Remember that the real threat only arrives with the arrival of Xykon. Unless you think that a lich can be fooled by illusions, your scenario just makes it MORE Likely that Xykon captures a gate. Whatever happens, it's unlikely that the Draketooths will permit Roy to destroy the gate and their home with it.

Now this is not said to justify familicide. I want to make that clear. Just that if you want to play what-if, your favorite what-if isn't the only valid one.

[zimmerwald1915]

Now this is not said to justify familicide. I want to make that clear. Just that if you want to play what-if, your favorite what-if isn't the only valid one.

Granted, absolutely. But once a character makes a choice, closing off the hypothetical scenarios from ever happening to them, the consequences become their responsibility. The death of the Draketooths, and all the bad consequences stemming therefrom for the party, are V's cross to bear. She does not get credit for stopping hypothetical bad consequences, but she does bear the blame for actual bad consequences.

[Scow2]

Without V, the party would have been slain by Trigak (The party was routed and acknowledged an inability to defeat him - even from Haley's early sneak attack damage)... which I guess could mean that V's presence led to the invasion of Azure City, because the Order wouldn't have kicked Xykon out of Dorukan's tower and blow it up.

Without V, we'd STILL be waiting for Kubota to be brought to justice.

[zimmerwald1915]

Without V, the party would have been slain by Trigak (The party was routed and acknowledged an inability to defeat him - even from Haley's early sneak attack damage)

What? Elan, Haley, and Belkar were running from Trigak, not "the party". And Roy indulged V by siccing her on Trigak. Letting her vent was a luxury for him. From this, I gather that were V absent he would have rallied the party, fought back, and won.

[Liliet]

Did anyone find that War & XPs quote? *waits impatiently for books to arrive*

It sounds awesome and I wish I spoke Russian now!

It's mostly politics, love story and self-improvement, there isn't much heroic action. Except the first half of the first book... and almost entire second book... and about a half of the third book... Nah. It is friggin' awesome in every possible way. Carrying blasters under medieval jackets and all that

Seriously, if you like good fantasy, you should totally learn Russian, because there's a lot of it that's unlikely to ever be translated.

Doesn't match what we were shown the elementals doing. The elemtentals we saw on the walls were tearing at the masonry, not killing soldiers. If any soldiers died to the barrage, it was to falls, being hit by flying or falling masonry, or being hit by the elementals as they landed.


Again, doesn't match the battle plan we were shown. The death knight's plan was to create a ramp of dead hobgoblins so it could ride in and get among the defenders (which I'm sure appealed to Redcloak at the time it was formulated as it involved mass hobgoblin death). If anything, the lack of giant soldiers would have slowed this plan down, because normal Azurites wouldn't have been able to kill so many hobgoblins so quickly.

I think the plan went like this only because the soldiers were able to stop hobbos in the first place. Without V, immediately capturing the breach and entering the city would satisfy Reddy just as well.

But anyway, this isn't a very meaningful discussion. We know that OotS is a Ragtag Bunch of Misfits, the point of which IS to be disfunctional but succeed in the end because of admirable personal qualities and dynamics nevertheless. The party wouldn't be the same without V (for one, ve is Haley's closest friend), and we haven't seen the ending yet, so it's too early to judge.

[zimmerwald1915]

Did anyone find that War & XPs quote? *waits impatiently for books to arrive*

Sorry, Psyren, I didn't think you wanted the full block quote. And thanks Lilet for reminding me. The relevant bit of commentary begins on the page facing strip 412...

Spoiler

Show

"I then [after clearly establishing each character's location] made certain to isolate characters who could change the intended outcome of events [of the Battle of Azure City] away from the action - and I needed to establish that I had done so before the events in question transpired. That's why the war was by far the most well-planned story I have yet written for OOTS, with full scripts prepared for almost the entire war before it began.

"One of the prime offenders in this area was Vaarsuvius. The unfortunate truth is that a high-level D&D wizard is enormously powerful and can manage effects that would have nullified most of the plot twists I had planned. A wizard could have blasted Xykon from afar or given Roy a flying spell (or at least a feather fall), all of which would have derailed my planned death scene. If I had created the physics of the OOTS world from scratch, I would have simply not given Vaarsuvius any capabilities that could interfere with the plot, but one of the great writing obstacles I face is that it is the game rules that set the boundaries of my characters' power. My readers know what a wizard of V's level should be able to pull off, and when he/she fails to display such powers in a do-or-die situation, they (rightly) cry foul. And so I wanted V out of the way of the others. I still wanted him/her to get the chance to unleash his/her magic on the battlefield to full effect - just, you know, over there. The opening salvo (the titanium elementals) therefore effectively separates V from the rest of the party, and they remain apart for the rest of the battle."

Whether the objective that a character that is separated from the group for the sake of preserving the plot still gets to affect the story in some way has been preserved is, in my view, debatable.

for one, ve is Haley's closest friend

Is this true anymore? Haley-V is one of the relationships that predates anyone filling out one of Roy's forms (the others being Durkon-Roy and Elan-Roy), but it seems to me that Elan and Haley are closer than Haley and V are now, even setting aside the former's romantic relationship.

[Chantelune]

Doesn't match what we were shown the elementals doing. The elemtentals we saw on the walls were tearing at the masonry, not killing soldiers. If any soldiers died to the barrage, it was to falls, being hit by flying or falling masonry, or being hit by the elementals as they landed.

Seriously ? You seriously think that Redcloack, of all people, summoned Elementals to be catapulted over Azure City, no less, and give them the specific order of "Get those walls down, but please, try not to kill any soldier when doing so and once you're done, just stand there doing nothing. I wouldn't want you to accidentally stomp on an azurite while we're conquering their city and trounce them all".

Redcloack hated the azurite. He might have gave them order to take down the wall first, as it was clearly the priority, but to think that any soldier dying in the process is an accident and not intentional on Redcloack part, that's just grasping at straw. There's very high chance that the order was more about "get those walls down, then kill every human you see."

This discussion is getting more and more ridiculous...

[Liliet]

Is this true anymore? Haley-V is one of the relationships that predates anyone filling out one of Roy's forms (the others being Durkon-Roy and Elan-Roy), but it seems to me that Elan and Haley are closer than Haley and V are now, even setting aside the former's romantic relationship.

...I like to think so. Of course, Elan-Haley relationship is given a lot of focus, partly because it's in the process of development as we observe it. Haley-V is already established, as is Roy-Durkon - and we don't get to see much of that, either.

I also like to think that when V comes out in the open and tells the party about what happened, this friendship will be given some more focus.

...But yeah, that's mostly my wishful thinking. It's too early to judge, as I've already said.

[theNater]

Doesn't match what we were shown the elementals doing. The elemtentals we saw on the walls were tearing at the masonry, not killing soldiers. If any soldiers died to the barrage, it was to falls, being hit by flying or falling masonry, or being hit by the elementals as they landed.

What about panel 7 of #424? Also, why don't soldiers killed incidentally count? They're still just as dead and just as unable to attack hobgoblins.

The death knight's plan was to create a ramp of dead hobgoblins so it could ride in and get among the defenders (which I'm sure appealed to Redcloak at the time it was formulated as it involved mass hobgoblin death). If anything, the lack of giant soldiers would have slowed this plan down, because normal Azurites wouldn't have been able to kill so many hobgoblins so quickly.

Without Vaarsuvius' repair work, a ramp may not have been necessary. Fewer hobgoblin corpses would have been necessary for it, certainly.

[Chantelune]

Also, a lover is not the same as a friend, in mose case. It has been establish that Haley and V are so close that they knew a lot about each-other beforehand (Haley knowing about V being married, V knowing most of Haley's secret, etc...) and being affectionate (V scrying to madness during the split the party period was probably more to find Haley and be sure she was safe than for Roy's sake or Belkar) to some degree.

Elan took more importance for Haley, which is normal as they started their relationship, but I don't see much that would indicate that Haley and V's friendship would have been deteriorated. And certainly not to the point where they would no longer see each other as friends.