Erfworld 10 - The discussion thread

[Diggorian]

Because of it's pacing, Erfworld is likely something I'll check on weekly as opposed to daily. Until the next I'll be catching up on this interesting Goblins comic I just discovered.

I'm still open to be impressed (though I would never have gotten the Jewish knickknacks ). I'm eager to see what sourmanders do and am already writing up a Plush Guardian monster based on the cloth golems.

[chionophile]

Cyclone's probably right, although I thought casualties at first too. Orlies are expendable, the only one Ansom cares about is Jillian and who would be sending the message if not Jill? So, as long as she's safe, Ansom would want to know about the composition and location of their enemies.

Also, I love the expression on Jill's face in panel 7 when she's writing the note. She just looks so cute with that hat on too.

(did anyone notice that the twoll used the word "tasty" when describing how exposed he felt ending a turn in the open? heehee...)

[Krytha]

I don't play enough of these games (or any for that matter) to get the jokes immediately, but maybe Ill pick something up along the way.

I just noticed that in the jumble of ORLYs? theres a YARLY and a LOL, which delighted the idiot in me.

[Nitan]

At first, I didn't particularly like the comics. Why isn't it like OotS I asked. Why is it talking about buying units and stuff? This is terrible!

But I stuck to it. Why? I have no idea but whatever it was, it was good. I grew to like Erfworld. Things started clicking, I began to develop attachments to characters, and most importantly I understood and accepted that it was OotS.

Now, with page 10 genuinely love this comic. It's hilarious, well drawn, and creative. Cloth Golems = Stuffed animals? Genius.

So keep it coming and stay the course writers and artists! You have me hooked.

[AngryGreek]

I guess I don't get why they feel the need to say "I think Erfworld sucks" rather than "I don't like Erfworld." Why not just take ownership of your opinion and not try to ascribe your opinion to objective reality?

Perhaps the reason for this is more simple than you think. Saying 'I don't like Erfrworld' really does not convey my true level of dislike for the comic for some people. Perhaps writing down 'Erfworld is the least entertaining web comic I have had the displeasure to lay eyes on' (or, in laymans terms, Erfworld sucks) gets to the core of their true feelings in a much more concise way.

To nitpick about the lack of 'I think' and 'In my opinion' is sublime. Everyone (except truly mentally disturbed people) know that their opinion does not affect global change. When I say 'OOTS is the most entertaining web comic I have read' I do not expect that to become a truth for the entire population of this planet merely because I have said it. I expect people to realize, without the addition of redundant words being typed by me, that it is, in fact, my opinion.

I don't see the people who dislike Erfworld coming down on the fans and nitpicking their posts because they happen to like it. I wonder, then, why the fans feel it necessary to do just that. It seems a little defensive to me.

[ZekeArgo]

This isn't a response to anyone in particular, but I think one of the *biggest* problems that people are having with Erfworld is not due to it's lack of quality, but perhaps because of the outstanding quality of The Giant's work at the moment.

Think about it, right now in OotS you have beloved characters and great new ones changing in new and unexpected ways, geeky references on many levels, and a general feeling of high adventure and excitement that really wasn't there during a few of the past story arcs.

What do you know? Maybe if Erfworld was released during Miko-Arc it would have received a warmer reception, but thats just my impression, even though I thoroughly love the comic.

Really I think people should listed to chinophile and lighten up a little bit. The juxtaposition of serious plot in what appears to be a very fanciful and light-hearted game, combined with the "switching" of sides for what we assume are the main characters is not only intriguing, but endearing.

Keep up the good work guys, can't wait to see more!

[TheUdjat]

Some of the posts in this thread make me want to claw out my eyes.

I will take a moment to add my voice to those saying 'Erfworld is cool' because frankly, it is. No, it's not your daily newspaper funnies, but that's what's awesome about it, and it boggles my mind that some people don't understand that, fundamentally speaking, it's just an entirely different concept than OoTS. This is a GOOD thing.

The humor in Erfworld is not really silly, or badly delivered, or even stupid. It's subtle. The world of Erfworld is silly and humorous, but the characters behave in a 'straight man' style, completely unaware of their world's inherent silliness and humor, treating it like everything's normal, which is exactly how it should be. The story wouldn't work in a punchline-a-day format. It's not OoTS. It's Erfworld.

I'm digusted that a number of people have been so outrageously, blatantly disparaging of Erfworld. If you don't like it, don't read it. If you don't like it and want to comment anyway, do it in a positive, helpful way, or at least understand that the problem is not necessarily Erfworld. Ranting about how horrible it is and how much it sucks is uncalled for, and pretty insulting to the creators who visit this page.

The comic is fantastic. The artwork rocks, the environment is very engaging, and the story is developing very smoothly, despite the switch in vantage points. It doesn't throw the humor at you, it lets you find it, and that makes it so much more rewarding in my opinion. It is primarily a story, not a joke. I like that.

So yeah, it's not gonna be for everyone. OoTS isn't either. I love it, my girlfriend (who's more about Call of Cthulhu than D&D) just doesn't get a lot of it, and finds it less interesting. She knows it doesn't suck, though, it's just not her thing. Ditto for some of you guys and Erfworld. So please, don't bash something just because it's not your style. Accept that your tastes differ and move on.

[Sebastian Bux]

I went into my cookie jar this morning and dug out two more pennies so I could get back into the mix of all this. Here is goes:

I started reading OOTS around issue 60 something. And it is very fair to say that I wasn’t actually “reading” the comic back then. If I recall, a friend of mine sent me an email link to one of the early issues. I remember reading this one page and laughing out loud. At the time I had never hear of Sir Greenhilt, Hailey, little red talking cockroaches, or any of it. But because of that one comic, I was interested enough to go to comic 1 and read some more about OOTS.

What issue are we up to now? 392? I’m still here, still waiting every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday for the next exciting update! That’s how good OOTS is. And let’s face it, we’re all here having this discussion because we love OOTS. If Erfworld wasn’t on this site we most likely wouldn’t be having this conversation in the first place.

So why do I mention this?

Because Erfworld has yet to deliver a single page of WOW for me. Individually, any one of the first 10 OOTS can stand alone as it’s own interesting work, yet each panel lends something to the ones that follow. Erfworld doesn’t have that same pull. It seems fragmented and unrelated.

Here’s another thing…

Rob says this is a story. It’s been proven by better men then me that when writing a story, you need to hook your readers in the first 30 pages (that’s written pages, not comic pages) or you’ll lose the interest of your readers. I’d say that 10 comics is the equivalent of 30 written pages of text.

As a quick aside, for those of you who might disagree with that statement, let me remind any reader of novels that while you can look at one panel of a comic to get the imagery of a scene, in a novel, words must describe what you see. That takes time and pages. You don’t have to take my word for it, but that doesn’t make it any less true.

Erfworld simply has not hooked me. OOTS’ first 10 panels feature the same core group of characters, Erf does not. The writing satire of OOTS’ first 10 panels make me want to read more of the same style, Erfworld does not. OOTS hooks you with it’s writing … not its art, but it’s writing. Erf falls short.

Rob says it’s not about humor but I’m still waiting to see Erfworld take itself seriously. Peeps, stuffed animals, glass figurines, dwagons, insert-a-mancers…. All you’re doing is setting up jokes (and ones that I still contend haven’t gone over well with all your readers). OOTS has a frame of reference, Erfworld has none. This regrettably means that Erfworld has to work harder, faster to establish the setting and set the rules of the universe.

If Erfworld was a novel I picked up at the store and I had taken the time to read the first 30 pages, it would have been put back on the shelf and I would have moved on.

It may not come off this way, but I’m not saying I don’t like it to be mean to Rob. Not at all. I want to present my opinion because maybe there’s a way for him to find a way to put a reader like me back in the story he wants to tell. Don’t cater to me, by any means, but maybe there’s some valid points in here that can help them produce a stronger comic. This is about what I don’t like about Erfworld, that’s all.

And one last thing…

This was already mentioned but it bears repeating to those who made it this far. The people who don’t like Erfworld and have said so have not attacked or criticized the fans who do. However the fans have taken the liberty to do that very thing to the critics. If you want to be a fan of Erfworld then take the time to consider my objections to the comic and tell me why those objections are incorrect. I never attack Rob personally (although I did call him crazy in a different thread, but not because of Erfworld … don’t mess with Star Wars, Rob! :’ )

Don’t make this personal. It’s not about you and me, it’s about you and your opinion about Erfworld and me and my opinion. My opinions are no less valid because you don’t agree with them. If you like Erfworld, I’m glad for you. You get to come to this site to enjoy two comics. What could be bad about that!

Sebastian

[Sebastian Bux]

Some of the posts in this thread make me want to claw out my eyes.

Here’s what’s great about your post (and sorry to pick on you, but you’re the best example)... You’re doing exactly the same thing to us (Erfworld critics) that you say we’re doing to Erfworld. Allow me to enlighten you.

I will take a moment to add my voice to those saying 'Erfworld is cool' because frankly, it is.

In your opinion….

No, it's not your daily newspaper funnies, but that's what's awesome about it

hmmm, I’m thinking this is your opinion….

and it boggles my mind that some people don't understand that, fundamentally speaking, it's just an entirely different concept than OoTS. This is a GOOD thing.

Mostly your opinion but I love how you think that because I criticize it I don’t “understand” it….

The humor in Erfworld is not really silly, or badly delivered, or even stupid.

In your opinion…

It's subtle.

You know, there is a fine line between what is subtle and what is invisible. I would contend that Erfworld has found itself on both sides of that line so far (but then that would be my opinion, wouldn’t it)

The world of Erfworld is silly and humorous, but the characters behave in a 'straight man' style, completely unaware of their world's inherent silliness and humor, treating it like everything's normal,

Okay, a fair perspective, though somewhat subjective….

which is exactly how it should be. The story wouldn't work in a punchline-a-day format.

Well, that’s your opinion….

It's not OoTS. It's Erfworld.

The most profoundly true statement to be found in your post. A brilliant comparison!

I'm digusted that a number of people have been so outrageously, blatantly disparaging of Erfworld. If you don't like it, don't read it.

Thank you … what a great point. Um, just a quick question … doesn’t this also mean that if you don’t like my review/criticism of Erfworld you should not read it? A beautifully put double standard!

If you don't like it and want to comment anyway, do it in a positive, helpful way, or at least understand that the problem is not necessarily Erfworld.

Saying that I think it sucks isn’t very helpful, I’ll agree with you there. However, going on to tell you “why” I think it sucks is more helpful. And yes, it must be me, not Erfworld…. very subtle.

Ranting about how horrible it is and how much it sucks is uncalled for, and pretty insulting to the creators who visit this page.

If you can’t take criticism, then this isn’t the job for you. Let me know when you find that perfect public job where no one criticizes you or your creativity. I want to sign up! And by the way, saying it sucks isn’t really insulting. It may be a strong display of distaste, but it’s not insulting.

The comic is fantastic. The artwork rocks, the environment is very engaging, and the story is developing very smoothly, despite the switch in vantage points. It doesn't throw the humor at you, it lets you find it, and that makes it so much more rewarding in my opinion. (I feel) It is primarily a story, not a joke. I like that.

With the exception of a small addition from me, this is the greatest and best thing you’ve said. Why? Because it’s your opinion on Erfworld, which is what this is really all about. I don’t agree with it, but I completely respect it.

So yeah, it's not gonna be for everyone. OoTS isn't either. I love it, my girlfriend (who's more about Call of Cthulhu than D&D) just doesn't get a lot of it, and finds it less interesting.

Objective…

She knows it doesn't suck, though, it's just not her thing.

Subjective….

Ditto for some of you guys and Erfworld. So please, don't bash something just because it's not your style. Accept that your tastes differ and move on.

But that’s EXACTLY what you’re doing to people with an opinion that differs from yours. Bashing us, but telling us not to bash you back. Your tastes obviously differ from mine but you still felt the need to tell me about how you don’t approve of that. You don’t accept our differences at all.

I hope I made my point here and I hope you understood it. Actually, the point I think I’ve made is that I have too much free time right now. Maybe this all doesn’t mean anything…. in 10,000 years who’s going to remember any of this anyway?

Actually, I know what my point it (I had to reread all of this). My point is, if you have an opinion about Erfworld then please feel free to express it. If you like it, then say so. If you hate it, then say so. But don’t hate on others for exercising their right to do the same. This post doesn’t criticize you for any of these opinions you’ve expressed. This post is about YOU and the way you treat those who’s opinions are different then yours. This goes for everyone here….

[AngryGreek]

I can't begin to explain enough how much I love the previous two posts (if by chance someone has posted in the interim, I'm referring to the posts by Sebastien Bux).

This guy mirrors my sentiment exactly, in a much more eloquent way that I could ever hope to achieve. However, I disagree with one point. As someone who is trying to get his first novel published, you have far less than 30 pages to captivate a reader, unless your name is Stephen King, Dean Koontz, Anne Rice, etc. Your literary agent needs to want to keep reading by the end of the first page, or you will have no literary agent, and no chance of becoming published.

First impressions count for a lot. That being said, I still keep coming back here in the hopes that Erfworld will grow on me. It hasn't (yet), however I did admit to laughing at the cloth golems. That is the first chuckle in 10 episodes. Compare that with the first 10 episodes of OOTS, where I was issuing multiple laughs per page, and the humour is just not there for me (with Erfworld).

It's been mentioned before that it's not meant to be a comedic piece, then it was defended that the comedy is all over the place and not for everyone. Which is it? It it supposed to be comedic, or is the comedy so advanced that Andy Kaufman would be the only person to truly get it?

I respect that people like it, and have only once lowered myself to actually insulting one individual (boy, did I pay for it, behave AngryGreek, behave!) who infuriated me in his own insults towards those of us who dislike the comic. As Sebastian has stated, we non-fans are not out here insulting the fans. We are voicing our (relevant) opinions about a comic. Even in a thread designed to GET our opinions, we were insulted for our efforts.

The artwork is great, and I know Rob is funny as hell, because I've been to PartiallyClips and laughed my ass off, with tears running down my cheeks at some of his work. I don't know if this is simply not Rob's genre, or if he is still getting a feel for it. I do wish them all the best, but I remain: unimpressed.

[urodivoi]

I like the skeleton dudes. They are the cutest skellies I have ever seen.

I agree. Obvously I enjoy the art.

[Sebastian Bux]

In case this matter to anyone, I actually really enjoy "PartiallyClips". I would never have heard of them without Erfworld so there's something positive to come out of Erfworld. I find a majority of the "PartiallyClips" jokes witty and clever.

[Alex Star]

Cloth Golems have Damage Reduction 10 that can only be penetrated by Small Children...

[chionophile]

One thing about Erfworld that I've found is that by reading the first ten comics several times and all at once, they get funnier and more understandable. If you're not liking it now, come back in a few weeks and read all of them at once and a couple of times.

[Dr._Bob]

Perhaps if the "criticisms" were in some way constructive, people would be less inclined to "bash" them.

FWIW, in my opinion, the artwork, storyline, humor, and characters in Erfworld are fantastic. Please don't change a thing! I am sure that there are many other people in the "silent majority" who enjoy the webcomic but don't necessarily post here.

In this case, I hope the "squeaky wheels" don't get the grease ...

[Alex Star]

As long as the Twolls are done correctly.. thats all I care about LOL...

I believe that Twolls can use the spell-like ability "Incite Webriot" which combines the effects of the spells "Attention Grab, Mass" and "Provoke Attack". Which causes all nearby enemies to focus all offensive attention against them.

This is bad because Twolls gain a +1 to hit and damage for every two enemies attacking them. They also have Damage Reduction Infinite and can only be killed if they are ignored for 3 consecutive turns after which they wither and die.

BTW: If anyone hasn't realized yet I think Erfworld ROCKS!

[Mauril Everleaf]

I started reading OOTS around issue 60 something. And it is very fair to say that I wasn’t actually “reading” the comic back then. If I recall, a friend of mine sent me an email link to one of the early issues. I remember reading this one page and laughing out loud. At the time I had never hear of Sir Greenhilt, Hailey, little red talking cockroaches, or any of it. But because of that one comic, I was interested enough to go to comic 1 and read some more about OOTS.

What issue are we up to now? 392? I’m still here, still waiting every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday for the next exciting update! That’s how good OOTS is. And let’s face it, we’re all here having this discussion because we love OOTS. If Erfworld wasn’t on this site we most likely wouldn’t be having this conversation in the first place.

okay, so when erfworld gets to issue 392, or heck even issue 60, come back to it and check it again. by then there will be a defined story and more than sketches of the main actors. test it then. if you still dont like it, thats fine, erf just isnt your style. but dont pass out judgement on a fledgling comic, let it grow its own wings.

Erfworld has yet to deliver a single page of WOW for me.

this is like saying that you dont like someone else's five year old child because he has yet to "wow" you with something amazing. a five year old not being a prodigy of some sort is what is called "normal".

Individually, any one of the first 10 OOTS can stand alone as it’s own interesting work, yet each panel lends something to the ones that follow. Erfworld doesn’t have that same pull. It seems fragmented and unrelated.

this is because oots is a serial comic and erfworld is a graphic novel (not my opinion, these are statements made by the creators). a serial comic is designed to be stand alone comics that may or may not have a cohesion beyond having the same characters. most newspaper comics are serial comics, with the exception of the soap opera ones. some do tell stories but the purpose is not the plot, but the characterization and the gag. a graphic novel is simply that, a novel that is graphic based and word driven. the plot develops over time, with gradual characterizations and plot twists. erfworld is strictly a graphic novel. there are jokes interspersed, but the purpose is plot development and eventual characterization. oots crosses this line, which is part of what its appeal is. it has the feel of a serial comic with the plot and characterization of a graphic novel. that is, i feel, the reason that it is so appealing to those that visit this site.

Rob says this is a story. It’s been proven by better men then me that when writing a story, you need to hook your readers in the first 30 pages (that’s written pages, not comic pages) or you’ll lose the interest of your readers. I’d say that 10 comics is the equivalent of 30 written pages of text.

As a quick aside, for those of you who might disagree with that statement, let me remind any reader of novels that while you can look at one panel of a comic to get the imagery of a scene, in a novel, words must describe what you see. That takes time and pages.

yes it is a story, yes it does take time to develop. no it will not develop in the first 10 pages. as i see it, you have apparently never read a graphic novel. in most series (except for short bit series like .hack) the entire first book is an exposition of plot and character. there is no definition in the first chapter, just a basic outlay of the primary players. this is exactly how erfworld is unfolding. even if you assume that these ten pages equal a chapter (which is a really short chapter), you have the basic character and plot sketches for the novel. you know of wanda the croakamancer, apparently deals with some sort of necromancy and works for lord stanley, is level headed and doesnt put up with too much antics (also, as far as comics go, is fairly attractive). there is also lord stanley, a brash, young, not-too-wise leader and quester for the great artifacts of erfworld, the arkentools. then there is prince ansom, a bold and charismatic leader who fits very much into the egocentric pretty boy stereotype, has a thing for jillian. jillian is a bold and assertive female warrior, who doesnt put up with ansom's barely veiled attempts to woo her, she is confident almost to the point of recklessness. you also understand, as far as i can discern, that the plot involves both sides of a war, both sides, presumably, questing for the arkentools, with stanley searching for the perfect commander to defend his nation and lead his quest.

thats a whole frickin lot for 10 pages.

You don’t have to take my word for it, but that doesn’t make it any less true.

nor does it make it any more true. its your opinion or someone else's, but its still just that, an opinion. ive read plenty of novels, which i thoroughly enjoyed, which i didnt start liking until about 1/3 or 1/2 way through. i was not forced to read them, i chose to because i trusted the author to produce a good work. just as i am trusting rob to produce a good work, and in rich for allowing erf to be the first non-oots on his site and that he would not debut something that is not of quality.

Erfworld simply has not hooked me. OOTS’ first 10 panels feature the same core group of characters, Erf does not. The writing satire of OOTS’ first 10 panels make me want to read more of the same style, Erfworld does not. OOTS hooks you with it’s writing … not its art, but it’s writing. Erf falls short.

this is not an issue of quality, but an issue of presentation format. rich chose to make the first several oots be a simple gag-a-day serial style comic with the option to develop into a graphic novel (which he has done quite well, i believe). Erf came right out of the blocks and said that it would not do this. that it would instead set itself up as a story not a joke reel.

Now, this strip will be a little different from The Order of the Stick. While OOTS has an ongoing story, it is also largely a gag comic, with a punchline at the end of (most) every page. Erfworld will be more like a graphic novel, with one page appearing at a time but without a guaranteed joke each and every installment. The humor is more likely to spread over the course of an entire scene; some jokes will take several pages to be told.

Rob says it’s not about humor but I’m still waiting to see Erfworld take itself seriously. Peeps, stuffed animals, glass figurines, dwagons, insert-a-mancers….

he did not say that its not about humor, but rather that humor is a periphery mechanism to the engine of the story. its supposed to be funny, or at least thats what i read from him, jamie and rich. the humor is, as has been stated, in a "straight man" style, wherein the humor come not really from the rediculous situations or objects in the world but from the fact that no one is thrown off by these things. its their lack of reaction that makes it seem more absurd, which is one primary mechanism for deriving humor.

All you’re doing is setting up jokes (and ones that I still contend haven’t gone over well with all your readers). OOTS has a frame of reference, Erfworld has none. This regrettably means that Erfworld has to work harder, faster to establish the setting and set the rules of the universe.

again, i refer to the format that is a graphic novel. because this is a novel presented in serial format (which is sub-optimum in my opinion) readers will tend to, at least subconsciously, think of it as such. if this were presented in a book of a few hundred pages (which graphic novels usually are), there would be little problem discerning that the first ten pages are a mere prologue to the story and that the true development of the story will follow. this is an impatience issue, one that i cannot say that i have not fallen victim to time and again. give it more issues to develop. if this requires that you dont read erfowrld for the next 2 months to let it build a base for you to stand on, then so be it. but dont declare a house to be useless when the foundation is just being poured, wait till the walls and roof have been placed before declaring the quality of the structure.

If Erfworld was a novel I picked up at the store and I had taken the time to read the first 30 pages, it would have been put back on the shelf and I would have moved on.

however you have not read the first 30 pages, you have read the first 10. the reason that the first 30 pages is used as a benchmark is that 30 pages usually encompases the first chapter, or two small chapters. wait until the first chapter of this novel is complete before passing judgement. if you still dont like it then, feel free to "put it back on the shelf and move on".

It may not come off this way, but I’m not saying I don’t like it to be mean to Rob. Not at all. I want to present my opinion because maybe there’s a way for him to find a way to put a reader like me back in the story he wants to tell. Don’t cater to me, by any means, but maybe there’s some valid points in here that can help them produce a stronger comic. This is about what I don’t like about Erfworld, that’s all.

and that's totally your right to do. however, if rob does not change his story, realize that this is not because your ideas weren't valid, but because it is his vision and his project and he can choose to do whatever he wishes with it. if he decides to write something that no one on the planet besides his mother would read, and thats just to be nice, then he is allowed to do that. that is the purpose of art, to express what one wants to express. it doesnt matter if you have an audience to appreciate it, although that is always nice (and in the world of capitalism, profitable).

This was already mentioned but it bears repeating to those who made it this far. The people who don’t like Erfworld and have said so have not attacked or criticized the fans who do. However the fans have taken the liberty to do that very thing to the critics. If you want to be a fan of Erfworld then take the time to consider my objections to the comic and tell me why those objections are incorrect.

i agree that bashing other posters is not acceptable, and i apologize if i have done so. however, consider this. if someone decides to disparage something that you enjoy or take pride in, such as your home town, school, job, affiliated organization or whatever, you tend to become defensive. that is human nature. this is how those who post here feel (or at least this is what i assume. those who have joined the forums feel a personal connection and/or attachment to the things on this site.) if someone were to tell you that they hated oots and that it sucked beyond that which is bearable by mankind and should be considered a crime against humanity, you would take much offense to that. however, if someone were to tell you that they liked a movie that you thought was stupid, boring, fractured, ill-planed and poorly acted you would not have an adverse reaction to them (unless you bore an extreme hatred and they expressed an undying passion for it), you would just disregard their opinion and hold to your own. it is human nature to think that what you like should be universal, while that which you dislike (not hate, just dislike) is a matter of personal opinion. obviously there are exceptions to this, but this could be applied as a general rule.

Don’t make this personal. It’s not about you and me, it’s about you and your opinion about Erfworld and me and my opinion. My opinions are no less valid because you don’t agree with them. If you like Erfworld, I’m glad for you. You get to come to this site to enjoy two comics. What could be bad about that!

i would not say that your opinion about liking or not liking the comic is less valid than mine, nor would any rational person who realize that that's the purpose of opinions.

as a final note, the above post is strictly my opinion or my interpretation of the facts presented. my word is not scripture, nor was it intented to be. this is merely a rebuttal, an expression of my feelings in a reasoned and relatively dispassionate form as a response to the quoted post and many previous posts as are applicable. feel free to rebut my post, however, i ask you to do so with equal reason and dispassion. thank you.

Sebastian

Mauril

[chionophile]

Any chance that we'll get official Erfworld avatars? I would love one of Jillian and her maniacal Twoll killing grin.

[Mariana]

I really don't understand the 'need' of some people to come here and post things like; "I hate Erfworld" or "Erfworld sucks". If you don't like it, don't read it, don't look at it, and please don't post this kind of comment in threads that were supposed to discuss the most recent strips.

[jami]

Any chance that we'll get official Erfworld avatars? I would love one of Jillian and her maniacal Twoll killing grin.

There's an Erfworld avatar thread over in the Art & Crafts section. You can make a request and they'll hook you up! And man, they're doing some great stuff over there.

[Sebastian Bux]

There's no quick response to your post, Mauril. But the brief response is to say you've missed my point on many levels and it will simply take a longer period of time to properly respond. To be continued...

[AngryGreek]

I really don't understand the 'need' of some people to come here and post things like; "I hate Erfworld" or "Erfworld sucks". If you don't like it, don't read it, don't look at it, and please don't post this kind of comment in threads that were supposed to discuss the most recent strips.

I really don't understand the 'need' of some people to come here and post things like "I don't understand th need of some people to come here and post things like "I hate Erfworld" or "Erfworld sucks" " If you don't like what we are saying, don't read it, don't look at it, and please don't respond to anything we write in this thread which is supposed to discuss the most recent strips.

I truly hope my point has been made.

[Sebastian Bux]

okay, so when erfworld gets to issue 392, or heck even issue 60, come back to it and check it again. by then there will be a defined story and more than sketches of the main actors. test it then. if you still dont like it, thats fine, erf just isnt your style. but dont pass out judgement on a fledgling comic, let it grow its own wings.

You missed my point here. My point was that the first 10 issues (of OOTS) were as strong as issue 60 something. Sure, 60 something had more to offer because the story was moving well along by that time, but 1 through 10 were equally strong.

Quote:

Erfworld has yet to deliver a single page of WOW for me.

this is like saying that you dont like someone else's five year old child because he has yet to "wow" you with something amazing. a five year old not being a prodigy of some sort is what is called "normal".

Terrible example, but I’ll work with it… It’s like someone showing me a five year old and saying “My kid is so great, listen to them play this song on the piano.” And then the kid sits down and plays 10 notes in 10 minutes. You look at the parent quizzically and they respond, “no, no… just wait till you hear the bridge!” Yeah, Elfworld is kinda like that.

this is because oots is a serial comic and erfworld is a graphic novel (not my opinion, these are statements made by the creators). a serial comic is designed to be stand alone comics that may or may not have a cohesion beyond having the same characters. most newspaper comics are serial comics, with the exception of the soap opera ones. some do tell stories but the purpose is not the plot, but the characterization and the gag. a graphic novel is simply that, a novel that is graphic based and word driven. the plot develops over time, with gradual characterizations and plot twists. erfworld is strictly a graphic novel. there are jokes interspersed, but the purpose is plot development and eventual characterization. oots crosses this line, which is part of what its appeal is. it has the feel of a serial comic with the plot and characterization of a graphic novel. that is, i feel, the reason that it is so appealing to those that visit this site.

This would support my claim elsewhere that Erfworld needs more in each update then we are given. Basically what you are saying here is that Erfworld is a graphic novel being presented in a serial comic style. I would contend that this is not working in Erfworld’s favor.

Want a good example of this? Go into your local comic shop and look at the graphic novels. Find one you’ve never read but have heard was pretty good (or ask the shop owner). Open it up and read the first page. Now close the book and come back in two days. Read the second page, close the book and come back in five more days and read page three. Come back in two… read one... come back in five…

How’s that graphic novel working out for you?

yes it is a story, yes it does take time to develop. no it will not develop in the first 10 pages. as i see it, you have apparently never read a graphic novel.

Incorrect….

in most series (except for short bit series like .hack) the entire first book is an exposition of plot and character. there is no definition in the first chapter, just a basic outlay of the primary players. this is exactly how erfworld is unfolding. even if you assume that these ten pages equal a chapter (which is a really short chapter), you have the basic character and plot sketches for the novel. you know of wanda the croakamancer, apparently deals with some sort of necromancy and works for lord stanley, is level headed and doesnt put up with too much antics (also, as far as comics go, is fairly attractive). there is also lord stanley, a brash, young, not-too-wise leader and quester for the great artifacts of erfworld, the arkentools. then there is prince ansom, a bold and charismatic leader who fits very much into the egocentric pretty boy stereotype, has a thing for jillian. jillian is a bold and assertive female warrior, who doesnt put up with ansom's barely veiled attempts to woo her, she is confident almost to the point of recklessness. you also understand, as far as i can discern, that the plot involves both sides of a war, both sides, presumably, questing for the arkentools, with stanley searching for the perfect commander to defend his nation and lead his quest.

This is always my favorite argument by some of the fans. Yeah, I read the character bios too. You make a lot of inferences about these characters that the bios mostly supported for you. Are there character bios for OOTS? I’ve never had to look at them once. The story has always revealed everything I ever needed to know about the players. See my comment about early Elan elsewhere in a post I’ve made. But basically all the character development I’ve seen so far has really come from the bios, not the comic.

Quote:

You don’t have to take my word for it, but that doesn’t make it any less true.

nor does it make it any more true. its your opinion or someone else's, but its still just that, an opinion.

Well, that’s basically the perfect counter argument to my statement ;’)

ive read plenty of novels, which i thoroughly enjoyed, which i didnt start liking until about 1/3 or 1/2 way through. i was not forced to read them, i chose to because i trusted the author to produce a good work. just as i am trusting rob to produce a good work, and in rich for allowing erf to be the first non-oots on his site and that he would not debut something that is not of quality.

Maybe it’s that trust is earned for me, not freely given. I trust Rich as far as his own comic goes, because he has proven time and again that he knows what he’s doing with it. I’ll never forget the time he posted in the forum the Miko fight from his perspective. I know he thinks about everything (or tries to) in OOTS. I respect that and I trust it. He’s earned it.

And as far as you reading books … guess you’ve never read a bad one. Lucky you.

this is not an issue of quality, but an issue of presentation format. rich chose to make the first several oots be a simple gag-a-day serial style comic with the option to develop into a graphic novel (which he has done quite well, i believe). Erf came right out of the blocks and said that it would not do this. that it would instead set itself up as a story not a joke reel.

Well, that’s why OOTS is doing great to this day and I think Erfworld sucks. Rich said, “Let me hook them early and then give them a reason to stay.” Rob seems to be saying, “I’ll hook you eventually, just stay around and I promise you’ll like it sometime.” Well, good thing he’s got the OOTS zealots to help him get to that “eventually”.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Giant
Now, this strip will be a little different from The Order of the Stick. While OOTS has an ongoing story, it is also largely a gag comic, with a punchline at the end of (most) every page. Erfworld will be more like a graphic novel, with one page appearing at a time but without a guaranteed joke each and every installment. The humor is more likely to spread over the course of an entire scene; some jokes will take several pages to be told.

Quote: Me
Rob says it’s not about humor but I’m still waiting to see Erfworld take itself seriously. Peeps, stuffed animals, glass figurines, dwagons, insert-a-mancers….

he did not say that its not about humor, but rather that humor is a periphery mechanism to the engine of the story. its supposed to be funny, or at least thats what i read from him, jamie and rich. the humor is, as has been stated, in a "straight man" style, wherein the humor come not really from the rediculous situations or objects in the world but from the fact that no one is thrown off by these things. its their lack of reaction that makes it seem more absurd, which is one primary mechanism for deriving humor.

I’m saying this straight up, right now. Comedy, in EVERY form, is all about timing. A joke, even the “straight man” style you mention, requires very precise timing. Rob is great at developing a joke over three panels (see “Partially Clips) but I would contend with some confidence that he hasn’t quite gotten this long term joke telling thing down. One page at a time is going to kill this comic (I feel).

again, i refer to the format that is a graphic novel. because this is a novel presented in serial format (which is sub-optimum in my opinion) readers will tend to, at least subconsciously, think of it as such. if this were presented in a book of a few hundred pages (which graphic novels usually are), there would be little problem discerning that the first ten pages are a mere prologue to the story and that the true development of the story will follow. this is an impatience issue, one that i cannot say that i have not fallen victim to time and again. give it more issues to develop. if this requires that you dont read erfowrld for the next 2 months to let it build a base for you to stand on, then so be it. but dont declare a house to be useless when the foundation is just being poured, wait till the walls and roof have been placed before declaring the quality of the structure.

We don’t completely agree here, but I do feel we’re on the same page at least. Of course, a lot of this discussion could have been shortened if you just made this point earlier and have been done with it.

Quote:

If Erfworld was a novel I picked up at the store and I had taken the time to read the first 30 pages, it would have been put back on the shelf and I would have moved on.

however you have not read the first 30 pages, you have read the first 10. the reason that the first 30 pages is used as a benchmark is that 30 pages usually encompases the first chapter, or two small chapters. wait until the first chapter of this novel is complete before passing judgement. if you still dont like it then, feel free to "put it back on the shelf and move on".

You missed my point again. I clearly mentioned previously that I felt 10 pages of a comic were equal to about 30 pages of novel text. So, like I said above, if Erfworld was a novel (i.e. all text, a book, not a comic) and I read the first 30 pages (which is like reading the comic now, which is only 10 pages) I’d put it down and move on.

and that's totally your right to do. however, if rob does not change his story, realize that this is not because your ideas weren't valid, but because it is his vision and his project and he can choose to do whatever he wishes with it. if he decides to write something that no one on the planet besides his mother would read, and thats just to be nice, then he is allowed to do that. that is the purpose of art, to express what one wants to express. it doesnt matter if you have an audience to appreciate it, although that is always nice (and in the world of capitalism, profitable).

Hey, it’s his comic, do what he wants. You can’t please everyone.

i agree that bashing other posters is not acceptable, and i apologize if i have done so.

I don’t feel bashed by you at all. One of the most intelligent rebuttals posted. Do me a big favor though… learn to capitalize your sentences. You lose some of the weight to your argument when you don’t write like an adult. Of course, if you’re only 5, then let me say you’ve sure WOW’d me!

Now that’s timing! Class dismissed.

however, consider this. if someone decides to disparage something that you enjoy or take pride in, such as your home town, school, job, affiliated organization or whatever, you tend to become defensive. that is human nature. this is how those who post here feel (or at least this is what i assume. those who have joined the forums feel a personal connection and/or attachment to the things on this site.) if someone were to tell you that they hated oots and that it sucked beyond that which is bearable by mankind and should be considered a crime against humanity, you would take much offense to that.

Taking offense is one thing, but how you conduct yourself is another thing entirely. I’m an adult and I know how to manage my anger. Just because we all can understand the emotion doesn’t necessarily forgive the poor behavior.

however, if someone were to tell you that they liked a movie that you thought was stupid, boring, fractured, ill-planed and poorly acted you would not have an adverse reaction to them (unless you bore an extreme hatred and they expressed an undying passion for it), you would just disregard their opinion and hold to your own. it is human nature to think that what you like should be universal, while that which you dislike (not hate, just dislike) is a matter of personal opinion. obviously there are exceptions to this, but this could be applied as a general rule.

Well, I’d probably try to understand what they could possibly see in that bad movie, and tell them why I thought it was crap. Then, if I didn’t “show them the light”, I’d agree to disagree with them and then in my head probably think they were an idiot for not seeing it my way, which is obviously correct :’)

By the way, let me just say that I was really excited to read this comic (Erfworld) when I first saw the character bios and the concept art. I thought that the idea sounded great. It’s the execution I find lacking.

i would not say that your opinion about liking or not liking the comic is less valid than mine, nor would any rational person who realize that that's the purpose of opinions.

as a final note, the above post is strictly my opinion or my interpretation of the facts presented. my word is not scripture, nor was it intented to be. this is merely a rebuttal, an expression of my feelings in a reasoned and relatively dispassionate form as a response to the quoted post and many previous posts as are applicable. feel free to rebut my post, however, i ask you to do so with equal reason and dispassion. thank you.

Done and done!

[IronMouse]

Perhaps if the "criticisms" were in some way constructive, people would be less inclined to "bash" them.

FWIW, in my opinion, the artwork, storyline, humor, and characters in Erfworld are fantastic. Please don't change a thing! I am sure that there are many other people in the "silent majority" who enjoy the webcomic but don't necessarily post here.

In this case, I hope the "squeaky wheels" don't get the grease ...

I have managed to red quite a few posts here that were constructive. What I have noticed is that these tend to be ignored or worse lumped together with the one line throw away posts and then the authors of those posts are promptly attacked. And the attack a sadly is both personal and boils down to “how dare you have a different opinion than me”

[Alex Star]

LOL @ getting upset about other peoples opinions....

ROFL @ arguing about who's opinion is right....

ROFLMFAO @ arguing over who has the right to criticize or not criticize who's opinion...

Annoyed @ arguing over who has the right to express their opinion...

Extremely Annoyed @ people quoting the opinions of others in order to find holes in their opinions...

Dissapointed @ many of the posters in this thread.

[IronMouse]

this is like saying that you dont like someone else's five year old child because he has yet to "wow" you with something amazing. a five year old not being a prodigy of some sort is what is called "normal".

I think it is more like watching the pilot of a new television series and, having failed to become interested, not “tuning in next week”.

this is because oots is a serial comic and erfworld is a graphic novel (not my opinion, these are statements made by the creators). a serial comic is designed to be stand alone comics that may or may not have a cohesion beyond having the same characters.

I think it is more like watching the pilot of a new television series and, having failed to become interested, not “tuning in next week”.

Then it has failed in the primary mission of that and similar works. It has failed to provide a literary hook. Something to grab the readers attention and compel him/her to continue reading. A few posts ago Sebastian_Bux suggested that a novel has 30 pages to interest a reader…From what I have read and from what those in the publishing business it is more like three pages.

J.K. Rowling does this in “Harry Potter and the Sorcerer’s Stone”. In the first three pages we are presented with one character (Mr. Dursely) it is made clear that the is not the likable sort, and a mystery is presented in strange happenings going on around our one character.

Dan Brown hooks people in the first three pages of “The Da Vinci Code”…in less than three pages actually as his first chapter is only two and a half pages long. In that short time we witness the brutal murder of the curator of the Louve museum and learn that he is the last holder of some ancient secret and he has minutes to find a way to pass on his secret

Robert Jordan does it in The Wheel of Time. In three pages we get drawn in reading about how an isolated farm is being attacked by an unknown and unseen terror.

Without the hooks how many people would have continued on with these books? A few maybe but not all.




[/quote]
yes it is a story, yes it does take time to develop. no it will not develop in the first 10 pages. as i see it, you have apparently never read a graphic novel. in most series (except for short bit series like .hack) the entire first book is an exposition of plot and character. there is no definition in the first chapter, just a basic outlay of the primary players. this is exactly how erfworld is unfolding. even if you assume that these ten pages equal a chapter (which is a really short chapter), you have the basic character and plot sketches for the novel. [/quote] The graphic novels I’ve read certainly have put out the hook…usually on the first page.

This is sort of like telling a television audience that no actual story will be presented in the first season

you know of wanda the croakamancer, apparently deals with some sort of necromancy and works for lord stanley, is level headed and doesnt put up with too much antics (also, as far as comics go, is fairly attractive). there is also lord stanley, a brash, young, not-too-wise leader and quester for the great artifacts of erfworld, the arkentools. then there is prince ansom, a bold and charismatic leader who fits very much into the egocentric pretty boy stereotype, has a thing for jillian. jillian is a bold and assertive female warrior, who doesnt put up with ansom's barely veiled attempts to woo her, she is confident almost to the point of recklessness. you also understand, as far as i can discern, that the plot involves both sides of a war, both sides, presumably, questing for the arkentools, with stanley searching for the perfect commander to defend his nation and lead his quest.

A lot of characters…but sadly no reason to care about them or be interested in what they are doing

he did not say that its not about humor, but rather that humor is a periphery mechanism to the engine of the story. its supposed to be funny, or at least thats what i read from him, jamie and rich. the humor is, as has been stated, in a "straight man" style, wherein the humor come not really from the rediculous situations or objects in the world but from the fact that no one is thrown off by these things. its their lack of reaction that makes it seem more absurd, which is one primary mechanism for deriving humor.

If you have to explain humor…its not humor

again, i refer to the format that is a graphic novel. because this is a novel presented in serial format (which is sub-optimum in my opinion) readers will tend to, at least subconsciously, think of it as such. if this were presented in a book of a few hundred pages (which graphic novels usually are), there would be little problem discerning that the first ten pages are a mere prologue to the story and that the true development of the story will follow. this is an impatience issue, one that i cannot say that i have not fallen victim to time and again. give it more issues to develop. if this requires that you dont read erfowrld for the next 2 months to let it build a base for you to stand on, then so be it. but dont declare a house to be useless when the foundation is just being poured, wait till the walls and roof have been placed before declaring the quality of the structure.

Why should the serial presentation matter to the development of the story line? If a story fails to catch a reader’s interest why should it be assumed that if you just wait six months and try reading it again everything will be so much better? The opening will be the same…as will the lack of a narrative hook.

however you have not read the first 30 pages, you have read the first 10. the reason that the first 30 pages is used as a benchmark is that 30 pages usually encompases the first chapter, or two small chapters. wait until the first chapter of this novel is complete before passing judgement. if you still dont like it then, feel free to "put it back on the shelf and move on".

The benchmark is actually three pages…editors are much harsher…they require a manuscript to be interesting on the first page.

i agree that bashing other posters is not acceptable, and i apologize if i have done so. however, consider this. if someone decides to disparage something that you enjoy or take pride in, such as your home town, school, job, affiliated organization or whatever, you tend to become defensive. that is human nature. this is how those who post here feel (or at least this is what i assume. those who have joined the forums feel a personal connection and/or attachment to the things on this site.) if someone were to tell you that they hated oots and that it sucked beyond that which is bearable by mankind and should be considered a crime against humanity, you would take much offense to that.

Why would I or anyone else be offended? It is a web comic…nothing more. and yes I have friends say that they don’t like OOTS…even hate the concept of it. Yet somehow, I managed to not insult or berate my friends and neither did I feel compelled to argue with them about their tastes.

i would not say that your opinion about liking or not liking the comic is less valid than mine, nor would any rational person who realize that that's the purpose of opinions.

You technically did.

[Silencer]

And is that an invisi-otter/ferret/panda I see? Can't wait to see them in combat.

You won't.

They're invisible!

[Cymraegmorgan]

Perhaps if the "criticisms" were in some way constructive, people would be less inclined to "bash" them.
..

Why should my criticism be constructive?
Is the author going to changehis style based on my likes or dislikes? Doubt it.
In my opinion Erfworld sucks.
It is enough for the powers that be to know alot of people agree with me. Certainly not everyone, but plenty.
Shoddy storytelling, ho-hum art, badly done characters. I do not need to give it another chance.
They failed to win me over.

[Khantalas]

And if I had given OotS a "10-strip grace", I wouldn't be reading it today. And I would miss a lot.

It is your right to not like the comic, and voice your opinion, and my right to think you're wrong and voice my opinion.

[AngryGreek]

Well, one thing you can say about Erfworld.. like it or not (and I don't, just in case some of you were wondering) it DOES have people talking. I think the creators should be pleased with themselves, they have a big and strong fan base already. This sort of devotion so early on is, well, unheard of. Thanks be to Giant ;).