SW Saga Edition Thread 2: The Sith Lords

[Nerd-o-rama]

A force user did it.

Oh, or meltmassif. I just read Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor the other week and apparently that **** can do anything. It's the mineral equivalent of Thrawn.

(Seriously it was a good book, especially as a character piece, but some of it got a bit contrived even for Star Wars.)

[Thrysierius]

Hey fellow Saga-ites, been a while but just wanted to run something by the rest of you. I'm curious what your interpretation of the Feat Adaptable Talent (Galaxy of Intrigue, page 25) is.

As written:
Choose one talent that you meet the prerequisites for, from a class you possess. Once per day, after at least 6 hours of rest, you can choose
to swap out one of your current talents for the talent you chose for this feat. The talent you swap out cannot be the prerequisite for any other talent you have. You can swap back to your original talent after at least 6 hours of rest.

Let's take a PC that has Solder, Scout, Scoundrel levels with the following talents:

• Spacehound
• Knack
• Lucky Shot
• Evasion
• Tough as Nails

The way I understand it is once a day, that PC can choose to swap out Evasion (Scout) for Uncanny Luck (Scoundrel), provided they meet all the prereqs for the new talent. Obviously, you could not swap out Knack because it's a prereq for Lucky Shot, but Lucky Shot is fair game.

Now let's get a little more convoluted. Let's say the following day you want to swap out Spacehound (from Scoundrel) for another Knaock but you still want to keep Evasion swapped out for Uncanny Luck. As written, it states that you can swap back the original talent after 6 hours of rest but it doesn't explicitly state you MUST do so before using Adaptable Talent again.

So here's my series of questions:

1. Can you perform a second swap as listed above, with the 6 hour swap back ONLY applying to returning SpaceHound?
2. Would you say it takes another 6 hours of rest to return Evasion back or would it have to be another use of Adaptable Talent on the following day?
3. So long as you meet the prereqs, do you see any issues with talents from Prestige Classes you have being open to be swapped out?

The way I read this is the above scenario is perfectly legal, and it would take 12 full hours of resting (6 per use of Adaptable Talent) to undo the talent swaps. Thoughts?

[Mando Knight]

Read the feat again: "Choose one talent that you meet the prerequisites for, from a class you possess." This is fairly clear that you choose the desired Adaptable Talent at the time you acquire the feat. It's therefore inherently limited by the fact that you're giving up a feat for the ability to swap one specific talent that you don't otherwise have and do qualify for with one of your existing feats. I don't think it should be too much of an issue in that case, since if you're using it to get extra Prestige Class talents, you're giving up both a feat and another talent for it.

Also, the rules do seem pretty clear to me that it takes 12 hours to switch which talent your Adaptable Talent is replacing: 6 to switch back to the original talent, then another 6 to swap your Adaptable Talent back in.

The feat doesn't have a "Special: you can take this feat multiple times..." text, so it implies that you only get to have one Adaptable Talent.

[Thrysierius]

TL;DR, well thought out response

Quoted for Brevity. Good point Mando, you're right. It does read a lot like other Specific Use feats like Recurring Success. Thus why I was asking for another interpretation to see if I was reading it right or had it a bit off. Thanks Mando!

[Nerd-o-rama]

I'm working on running a Saga game for my tabletop group (in a couple of weeks when we finish dying horribly in Call of Cthulhu), and my interpretation of every character option in Galaxy of Intrigue except the species is "it's banned". But maybe that's just me.

[Mando Knight]

I'm working on running a Saga game for my tabletop group (in a couple of weeks when we finish dying horribly in Call of Cthulhu), and my interpretation of every character option in Galaxy of Intrigue except the species is "it's banned". But maybe that's just me.

Oh, come now. The comm devices aren't that bad. An earbud comlink would be a pretty handy buy for anyone that doesn't wear a helmet.

[Seatbelt]

Why is all that content banned?

[Mando Knight]

Why is all that content banned?

GoI is the last book released for Saga, and everything after Clone Wars (Jedi Academy, Rebellion, Legacy, Unknown Regions, War, Intrigue) never got official errata. Given WotC's apparent penchant for shuffling experienced developers over to Magic, the balance of the book is... questionable at best. Bone Crusher turns a grapple build into a CT-Killer, and Flèche let you crit on a 17 when charging (let's be honest, you're not going to roll 17-19 during more than one charge per encounter). On the other hand, we have Clip, which is a Prestige Class talent (Ace Pilot's Expert Pilot tree) that reduces the collision damage you receive while ramming. Ramming never works if you use it as written.

[Nerd-o-rama]

The feats and talents in general are a combination of either thoughtlessly overpowered or "what the hell is the point".

Some of the equipment isn't so bad though, you're right.

[Seatbelt]

GoI is the last book released for Saga, and everything after Clone Wars (Jedi Academy, Rebellion, Legacy, Unknown Regions, War, Intrigue) never got official errata. Given WotC's apparent penchant for shuffling experienced developers over to Magic, the balance of the book is... questionable at best. Bone Crusher turns a grapple build into a CT-Killer, and Flèche let you crit on a 17 when charging (let's be honest, you're not going to roll 17-19 during more than one charge per encounter). On the other hand, we have Clip, which is a Prestige Class talent (Ace Pilot's Expert Pilot tree) that reduces the collision damage you receive while ramming. Ramming never works if you use it as written.

Gotcha. I like other content in it though. Skill challenges were really helpful for me.

[druid91]

Is it just me or is Cyborg Hybrid when combined with a Jedi with a noble Wealth Dip insanely terrifying?

Flying armored force wizard with SR.

[Waar]

Is it just me or is Cyborg Hybrid when combined with a Jedi with a noble Wealth Dip insanely terrifying?

Flying armored force wizard with SR.

Force users can be terrifying, cyborg hybrids can be terrifying, but since your cyborg force user has a -5 penalty to use the force I would go for non cybernetic equipment if that's an option (+5 utf>>+5 sr).

[Mando Knight]

So, I've been thinking about how starfighters can't do jack against capital ships as-is in Saga, so I've been kicking around a few alternate rules that should make it a little easier:

Spoiler

Show

• All Colossal (frigate) and larger vessels have 80% of their listed HP.
• SR > 100 is reduced by 40 (minimum 70), SR from 80-100 is reduced by 30 (to 50-70), and anything between that and 50 is set to 50. Some other outliers get their SR tweaked more (Imperial Assault Shuttle gets knocked down to maybe SR 80, if it keeps its current "fast-failure" mechanic, Skipray goes down to 50), and the Dreadnoughts get their SR reduced to 75% of the current value (still out of reach of any starfighter).
• All Capital Ship weapons have their multipliers reduced to x4 instead of x5.
• All Ion Cannons reduce the target's SR by an additional 5 on hit, regardless of whether or not it exceeds the target's SR.
• All missile weapons ignore half of the target's SR. (Optionally: they do not reduce SR unless the damage exceeds the SR before halving, or perhaps they do not reduce SR at all except for Shieldbusters)

This would change the dynamic of starfighters vs capital ships, so bombers would actually be able to succeed at their role by firing their missile payloads. Without touching the size modifiers to Damage Threshold, the fighters will still have to chew through hull in order to destroy a capital ship, but this will at least allow them to do it.

Example: Straw Warship has DR 20, SR 100, and 1000 HP. In the current system, a starfighter equipped with Proton Torpedoes (9d10x2 damage) cannot effectively damage the warship, ever (9 dice trend strongly toward the mean of 99, and for every 100+ roll it gets, there's a 98 or less roll that gives the warship another turn to recharge shields, and it needs to roll over 120 to even deal HP damage). With these changes, the Warship would have 800 HP and SR 70, and only 35 SR against missile weapons. Here, a lucky strike (that is, a crit) against the full HP Warship deals 198 damage on average (or 143 past DR and full SR), enough to possibly (it's a lucky strike, after all) knock the Warship down a step on the Condition Track. The average hit will still deal 99 damage, which is reduced to 44 after DR and SR, so the Warship can still take several such strikes and survive.

The adjustment to Capital Ship weaponry is to counteract the major loss in health that Capital Ships received in the change, though it's less of a drop in damage compared to the drop in SR. The change to Ion Cannons makes them actually useful, as Ion Cannons are generally really weak otherwise... the typical bombers (i.e. the B-Wing and Y-Wing) are generally equipped with Ion Cannons to take down the capital ships' shields, but at 4d10x2 damage as written (for the Y-Wing), it takes a high roll on a critical hit for them to actually reduce SR!

[Sith_Happens]

Are there not rules for treating a coordinated strafing run as a single attack with commensurately increased damage? Because that seems like the most sensical way to do it.

[Machadawg]

I regularly play 5thE and 3.5E and also have DMed them both, but after hearing about this system a lot on this forum I checked it out. And I really really love this system though I have not played it yet.

This Friday I plan on DMing...GMing Dawn of Defiance campaign and would like some advise on running the system and the module. I've read the core rulebook and the first 2 episodes of the module.

My group is relatively new to tabletop RPGs having only played a few sessions of 3.5 and 5th edition respectively. They were super excited after I told them I wanted to try a Star Wars D&D game. Is this system as easy for newbies as 5th?

Thanks in advance

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

There's an existing Saga thread currently about 4 threads below yours in which you may find an answer quicker.

[Waar]

So, I've been thinking about how starfighters can't do jack against capital ships as-is in Saga, so I've been kicking around a few alternate rules that should make it a little easier:

Giving some improvement to concussion missiles and ion weapons are good ideas, but since the variation of capitol ship stats are so large in both SR and weaponry I'm unsure about the other changes.

Keep in mind that starships of the galaxy contains several options for attacking larger ships with fighters or bombers. The battery fire esque rules Sith_Happens hinted at are usable by anybody, while more skilled characters can use spaceship maneuvers, and I think there is an ace pilot talent that lets you combine attacks against dr and sr. But if you want to make it easier to attack large ships with less investment, your ideas will get the job done.

[Mando Knight]

Are there not rules for treating a coordinated strafing run as a single attack with commensurately increased damage? Because that seems like the most sensical way to do it.

Giving some improvement to concussion missiles and ion weapons are good ideas, but since the variation of capitol ship stats are so large in both SR and weaponry I'm unsure about the other changes.

Keep in mind that starships of the galaxy contains several options for attacking larger ships with fighters or bombers. The battery fire esque rules Sith_Happens hinted at are usable by anybody, while more skilled characters can use spaceship maneuvers, and I think there is an ace pilot talent that lets you combine attacks against dr and sr. But if you want to make it easier to attack large ships with less investment, your ideas will get the job done.

Synchronized Fire only works once per encounter, and you need to a large fighter group to get enough firepower to scratch the shields of a Star Destroyer, and at least two such groups attacking successfully (A 6-man group at point-blank range will, on average, deal 11 or 12 dice of damage with their proton torpedoes, only the latter is enough to damage an Imp-II's full shields normally, Imp-Is are a lost cause due to higher shield strength and point-defense batteries on top of fighter cover) in order to drop the shields enough that you can plink away at the hull with lasers for several more rounds before finally disabling the ship.

I might have gone overboard with hitting the shields of capital ships, I guess... throwing Shield Hit or heroic levels in there do increase the odds of defeating such a target, and ignoring half the shields with missile weapons (I mean to include torpedoes in it, and knock off a couple EP from the concussion missiles, since they aren't ever used in the rulebooks like they have higher EP costs) means that it's enough to make a couple squadrons able to disable a Star Destroyer.

The hull reductions were based off of a noticed anomaly... Colossal ships have around 200 or less HP (with the already-broken Imperial Assault Shuttle being an anomaly at over 300), the Gallofree Medium Transport has 400, and then even the smallest corvettes have 700 or more (except for another outlier, TFU's Escort Carrier, which is meant to imitate the horribly fighter-vulnerable ship from Rogue Squadron 3, and is an absolute stinker in terms of performance). It's a huge difference caused by (I think) the huge difference in the firepower of the ships: x5 weapons scale ridiculously fast (each die is +27.5 damage on average, and most frigate or larger ships have them mounted on batteries), so the stats of most larger ships were designed around how long they can tango with an ISD, not how many fighters it takes to destroy them.

[LibraryOgre]

The Mod Wonder: Merged this with the new thread about SW Saga Edition I quote below. If you missed it, back up and give our new person a hand if you can.


I think the reduction in shields for ion weapons and projectiles is a wonderful idea, at the very least, and represents the line from ANH pretty well, as well as the observed damage in ESB at the battle of Hoth.

I regularly play 5thE and 3.5E and also have DMed them both, but after hearing about this system a lot on this forum I checked it out. And I really really love this system though I have not played it yet.

This Friday I plan on DMing...GMing Dawn of Defiance campaign and would like some advise on running the system and the module. I've read the core rulebook and the first 2 episodes of the module.

My group is relatively new to tabletop RPGs having only played a few sessions of 3.5 and 5th edition respectively. They were super excited after I told them I wanted to try a Star Wars D&D game. Is this system as easy for newbies as 5th?

Thanks in advance

I'm not familiar enough with 5e to comment directly, but I do find the system to be very easy for those with familiarity with 3.x, and there are some echoes of 5e's advantage mechanics in some of the racial abilities.

One of the main things to consider, IMO, is Force Powers. They can be very potent, especially if you allow an early Skill Focus in Use the Force, and they work a little odd if you're mostly used to 3.x. Each time you take training in a force power, it represents one time that you can use it in an encounter. If you take Force Lightning once, you can use Force Lightning once in an encounter. If you've trained in it three times, you can use it three times in an encounter (but you've used up your ability to take other things).

Another big thing to note is the condition track. Because of how it works, it can be more effective (if you have a build designed to take advantage of it) to simply disable people via the condition track, rather than overwhelm them with damage. I tend to take a "anything you can do, I can also do" approach to it as a GM... I don't break out CT-killer builds until the players do, but keep them in mind.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I'm working up to running Dawn of Defiance for my Monday night group (one of the GMs has been running Call of Cthulhu for like two years and wants a break), and among other things I just outright banned Skill Focus: Use the Force until 8th level (when we get into Prestige Class territory), and stated that you can't knock someone more than three places down the Condition Track in one shot, period (which is mostly to give recurring villains a chance to escape, admittedly. No headshotting Inquisitor Draco). The Dawn of Defiance campaign also officially recommends starting characters with 28 point-buy stats and maximum wealth for their class, which I recommend following. Level 1 SAGA characters aren't as fragile as level 1 3.5 and earlier D&D characters, but they do need all the help they can get.

I did a bunch of other house rules, but those are the main "balance" ones.

Aside from that, use the errata, it really helps. Bear in mind that while every base class is pretty useful and has its role, there are a lot of character options that are D&D 3.5-style traps and not that useful, especially species. Space combat has some wonky parts that we're talking about in this thread right now. In general, read the rules thoroughly, because there's a good amount of stuff that's different from other d20 games (Damage Threshold/Condition Track, the way actions work, even little quirks like being able to AoO with many ranged weapons).

As one final DoD-specific thing, I find the old Enhancing DoD threads on Wizards' message boards immensely enlightening, though understanding or implementing some of it might require some system mastery first.

[Waar]

so the stats of most larger ships were designed around how long they can tango with an ISD, not how many fighters it takes to destroy them.

It would seem as if that was the intention, but given how wildly the power of cruisers (and frigates) vary I wouldn't say they succeded. And how many ncp fighters do you want to have to use, because that will drastically change what is considered acceptable damage (especially due to crits).

[Dienekes]

I regularly play 5thE and 3.5E and also have DMed them both, but after hearing about this system a lot on this forum I checked it out. And I really really love this system though I have not played it yet.

This Friday I plan on DMing...GMing Dawn of Defiance campaign and would like some advise on running the system and the module. I've read the core rulebook and the first 2 episodes of the module.

My group is relatively new to tabletop RPGs having only played a few sessions of 3.5 and 5th edition respectively. They were super excited after I told them I wanted to try a Star Wars D&D game. Is this system as easy for newbies as 5th?

Thanks in advance

Never done Dawn of Defiant. But a general bit of houserules that just make the game work easier.

Skill Focus: Instead of giving a flat +5, give them a +1 bonus that increases every 2 levels to reach +5 at level 9. If you don't and a force user picks it for an early feat they can vastly overpower their allies until the mid to later levels.

CT Killers: Some of your players might figure this out, by the mid levels it's more effective to push opponent's down the condition track than to whittle away at their hit points. If they really focus on this you can get shenangans like a mid-level gunslinger who can one shot KO Darth Vader. Just tell your players that all talents and feats that provide additional methods of knocking opponents down the CT on the same attack roll don't stack.


More Optional Rules: Ones I like but the game plays fine without them

Armored Defense: Just give it to players for free if they are proficient in their armor. Otherwise it's really just a talent tax on playing the character you want to play.

Combine Swim, Jump, and Climb into Athletics: These are pretty weak skills in general and it's unlikely that a player will pick Swim for anything but fluff reasons anyway. If you do this, I'd also suggest increasing the Soldier starting skill list with Persuasion and Stealth. It gives them a bit more flexibility outside of combat, which they kind of need before mid-levels. It also always struck me as weird that soldiers can't Intimidate now that that skill has been swallowed up by Persuasion.


Um, what else? Have fun. Try to make your players feel like heroes. I don't know about Dawn of Defiance, but if you're playing in the Star Wars universe make sure the lore doesn't feel too restrictive to your players. It can work, I've seen it done well. But having your players always just be less important than Luke Skywalker can get annoying.

[Mando Knight]

It would seem as if that was the intention, but given how wildly the power of cruisers (and frigates) vary I wouldn't say they succeded. And how many ncp fighters do you want to have to use, because that will drastically change what is considered acceptable damage (especially due to crits).

...Hm... actually, if they break off the grouped fire after the first two rounds, then it doesn't actually take all that many more torpedoes (counting a good chance for NPCs to miss damaging a 1600-meter armored warship) for a couple squadrons of bombers even as written, the main issue is getting over the initial hump of the SR. I guess the hull/shield nerf isn't really needed at all, but the torpedo change (with the "only depletes SR if it exceeds it before halving" option) would be about good enough.

More Optional Rules: Ones I like but the game plays fine without them

Armored Defense: Just give it to players for free if they are proficient in their armor. Otherwise it's really just a talent tax on playing the character you want to play.

I personally don't like this one because of what it means: good armor is then an easy +2 Fortitude already, and then offering another big bump to Reflex for just one talent (Improved Armored Defense) is crazy. IMO, the benefits of Armored Defense (keeping a higher Fortitude Defense through your higher levels) is perfectly fine as a prerequisite talent for Improved Armored Defense (which bumps your Reflex defense out of reach once you get worthwhile armor).

[Dienekes]

I personally don't like this one because of what it means: good armor is then an easy +2 Fortitude already, and then offering another big bump to Reflex for just one talent (Improved Armored Defense) is crazy. IMO, the benefits of Armored Defense (keeping a higher Fortitude Defense through your higher levels) is perfectly fine as a prerequisite talent for Improved Armored Defense (which bumps your Reflex defense out of reach once you get worthwhile armor).

Ehh, this shouldn't happen until level 8-10 anyway.

Besides, to get the good armor means: Getting Light, Medium, and Heavy armor proficiencies, spending 20000-40000 credits, and then that only gives you a bonus to your Fortitude without Armored Defense. Without Armored Defense your paying with feats and credits just to get hit a lot more. At that point buying armor actually hurts you more than it helps which is frankly ridiculous.

Improved Armored Defense bumps you up to a maximum of a +5 bonus at level 10 (admittedly hefty). Though personally, if that bothered me at all, I'd just make Second Skin a Prereq for it.

[Mando Knight]

Ehh, this shouldn't happen until level 8-10 anyway.

Besides, to get the good armor means: Getting Light, Medium, and Heavy armor proficiencies, spending 20000-40000 credits, and then that only gives you a bonus to your Fortitude without Armored Defense. Without Armored Defense your paying with feats and credits just to get hit a lot more. At that point buying armor actually hurts you more than it helps which is frankly ridiculous.

Improved Armored Defense bumps you up to a maximum of a +5 bonus at level 10 (admittedly hefty). Though personally, if that bothered me at all, I'd just make Second Skin a Prereq for it.

...That's not the good armor. Good armor is the lighter stuff. Stormtrooper and Battle armor, depending on your Dexterity. IAD with Stormtrooper Armor nets you +3 to Reflex starting at level 6 (and allow for your 16 Dex to give you another +3 to Ref, then Tech Specialist will accommodate 18 Dex), which is crazy for one talent. Defenses already scale very strongly as you increase your level and get large class-based bonuses, so a level 10 gunslinger with 16 Dex and Stormtrooper armor will have 30 Reflex, but only +16 or so to hit if they're running a +Accuracy weapon and have Weapon Focus... if the first seven levels were only in Soldier or Jedi.

[Sith_Happens]

Synchronized Fire only works once per encounter, and you need to a large fighter group to get enough firepower to scratch the shields of a Star Destroyer, and at least two such groups attacking successfully (A 6-man group at point-blank range will, on average, deal 11 or 12 dice of damage with their proton torpedoes, only the latter is enough to damage an Imp-II's full shields normally, Imp-Is are a lost cause due to higher shield strength and point-defense batteries on top of fighter cover) in order to drop the shields enough that you can plink away at the hull with lasers for several more rounds before finally disabling the ship.

...Which is exactly how it works in the movies, TV shows, and every book and comic I know of.

[hamishspence]

Synchronized Fire only works once per encounter, and you need to a large fighter group to get enough firepower to scratch the shields of a Star Destroyer, and at least two such groups attacking successfully (A 6-man group at point-blank range will, on average, deal 11 or 12 dice of damage with their proton torpedoes, only the latter is enough to damage an Imp-II's full shields normally, Imp-Is are a lost cause due to higher shield strength and point-defense batteries on top of fighter cover) in order to drop the shields enough that you can plink away at the hull with lasers for several more rounds before finally disabling the ship.

Doesn't a manoeuvre (Skim the Surface?) allow you to get inside the shields to attack? Not sure if you can specifically take out generators once inside though.

[Mando Knight]

Doesn't a manoeuvre (Skim the Surface?) allow you to get inside the shields to attack? Not sure if you can specifically take out generators once inside though.

It's a single attack per use of the maneuver, and the rules as given don't have any kind of called-shot attack other than the starship maneuvers, and those can't be used with Skim the Surface (since the called-shot maneuvers are Standard Actions and Skim the Surface is a Full-Round Action).

...Which is exactly how it works in the movies, TV shows, and every book and comic I know of.

Kind of? Except that in those, it doesn't take 5 or 6 torpedoes striking the Star Destroyer at once just to make its shields flicker: the torpedoes usually punch through the shields and hit the hull, dealing however much damage the plot needs them to. With the "torpedoes ignore half the shields, but don't deplete shields unless they beat it before halving" idea, the torpedoes would do some damage to the hull with each hit, and possibly deplete the shields.

[LibraryOgre]

Being a fan of X-Wing and Tie-Fighter, I like the idea that Shields do less against missiles, and that you can relatively easily target things like Shield generators. Really, that's the point of fighters... to trash the defenses of the capital ships, and do point defense for the bigger weapons.

[Dienekes]

...That's not the good armor. Good armor is the lighter stuff. Stormtrooper and Battle armor, depending on your Dexterity. IAD with Stormtrooper Armor nets you +3 to Reflex starting at level 6 (and allow for your 16 Dex to give you another +3 to Ref, then Tech Specialist will accommodate 18 Dex), which is crazy for one talent. Defenses already scale very strongly as you increase your level and get large class-based bonuses, so a level 10 gunslinger with 16 Dex and Stormtrooper armor will have 30 Reflex, but only +16 or so to hit if they're running a +Accuracy weapon and have Weapon Focus... if the first seven levels were only in Soldier or Jedi.

**** that did remind me that I also made Stormtrooper armor Medium. But even then the +3 armor for a talent is high, but again, this all seems like reasons why IAD is a poorly balanced talent, not why it's a good idea to force armor users to get a useless talent just so wearing armor doesn't make them worse come level 5.

Also, I think you're math is funky.
Reflex: 10 (base) + 10 (level) + 3 (armor) + 3 (16 dex) = 26

Attack: 10 (levels)+3 (16 dex) + 1 (Weapon Focus) + 1 (Accuracy Weapon) = 15

So assuming that's about as high an attack can get, that's not that bad against someone who focuses on armor.

Now, there is a problem coming around when the guy gets that, then also gets 3 Martial Art feats, then also gets Dodge, then also gets Improved Defenses. But at that point, this theoretical character has dumped 6 feats, a talent, and 8000 credits to just become untouchable. It's no surprise that he succeeds.

Now again, what I would do is make IAD have Second Skin as a Prereq, and make each of the Martial Arts feats give a different Defense a boost.