SW Saga Edition Thread 2: The Sith Lords

[russdm]

The older system. And technically, with the release of EotE, Saga is now the old system by comparison. Not that old, but still.

I'm now conflicted in my voting; on one hand I like SAGA academy, but on the other, The Old System keeps up the theme established by the name of this thread. Hmm...

Maybe call it "The SAGA Academy"...

[Getsugaru]

Like I said, the only reason to carry an ion weapon is if you know you're going to fight a droid army (e.g. you're a sniper in the Clone Wars), unless your GM is explicitly changing how ion weapons work in order to make them an attractive option for some other reason. Handheld weapons usually don't deal enough damage to beat the Damage Threshold of any vehicles Huge or bigger thanks to DR (and the -10 DR talent from the Elite Trooper PrC isn't worth the investment unless you regularly have to deal with vehicles while on foot), and an ion weapon is just deadweight against organics.

Fair enough. Sonic Damage is hard enough to counter anyway.

[Philistine]

Well, I currently have a Dashade (KotOR 79) Concussion Rifle (TUR 37) as my main weapon, and the sniper build I'm using is indeed oriented towards pushing the enemy as far down the condition track as possible in one shot. If Ion damage really is that bad, then oh well, but with the information I've now provided about the build, is it still not worth it?

That's not a particularly good weapon for CT sniping, as the low damage is going to make it more difficult to break the targets' DTs. The Dashade template really is kind of a trap - you can usually expect your targets to spend actions on things like "moving to cover" or "returning fire," so generally will only have one or two actions per turn to spend on CT recovery anyway. So the penalty it imposes on them isn't going to come up often. The penalty to your damage, though, is going to come up with every shot - and it's going to be that much worse on a sonic weapon, which gets fewer damage dice to start with. I would suggest looking at Cinnagaran instead of Dashade, to get around Negate Energy in addition to Deflect/Redirect Shot.

And yes, Ion damage really is that bad. In fact, ion weapons are often not worthwhile even if you do expect to fight a whole droid army, as it's usually as fast or faster to kill a droid with a blaster than it is to knock one out with the comparable ion weapon.

[Getsugaru]

I may have to replace Dashade then, but the weapon in question will not be changed. I have a feeling the campaign will involve enemy Force-users, so the ability to knock them prone will definitely come in handy. Also, the build involves Devastating Attack (Threshold is 5 less) and Deadeye (+1 die of damage), so it isn't as less damage as you may believe. The -2 is still bad.

What about Baragwin? +1 die on a crit after multiplying for the same price as Dashade.

[Philistine]

I may have to replace Dashade then, but the weapon in question will not be changed. I have a feeling the campaign will involve enemy Force-users, so the ability to knock them prone will definitely come in handy. Also, the build involves Devastating Attack (Threshold is 5 less) and Deadeye (+1 die of damage), so it isn't as less damage as you may believe. The -2 is still bad.

What about Baragwin? +1 die on a crit after multiplying for the same price as Dashade.

No, that's exactly as less damage as I assumed - Deadeye (and Careful Shot) are always part of a sniper build, and Devastating Attack very often is. It's just that sonic weapons consistently do one less die of damage than the equivalent blaster weapon, that's all; this is (more or less) balanced by the inability of saber slingers to Deflect shots from sonic weapons. Earlier you were talking about carrying a backup ion weapon to deal with droids; instead of that, I'd suggest carrying a backup blaster weapon to deal with non-Force users (the DLT-20A Longbarrel, CW CG p62, is a particular favorite).

The first and biggest problem with Baragwin is that crits just don't happen often enough to be a reliable source of extra damage. After that you get to the fact that adding an extra die after multiplying is on the weak side, and also that crits are the one time you absolutely shouldn't have any trouble beating your opponent's DT even without that. Cinnagaran OTOH is a great addition to an anti-Force weapon because it adds an extra damage type (bludgeoning) that bypasses Negate Energy - the Force user's other way of shutting down most attackers - and it's also the same price as both Dashade and Baragwin.

[Yora]

Okay, page 50. New thread?

"Saga Academy" appears to be the favorite. (And it's either "Saga" or "SWSE" )

[RandomLunatic]

Cinnagaran OTOH is a great addition to an anti-Force weapon because it adds an extra damage type (bludgeoning) that bypasses Negate Energy - the Force user's other way of shutting down most attackers - and it's also the same price as both Dashade and Baragwin.

Saga doesn't work that way. If a weapon deals two damage types, then any affect that blocks either of the component damage types will block the whole attack, so you don't eliminate a vulnerability, you add a new one. Granted, I don't think Saga has any sort of DR/Bludgeoning or similar, but still, it's a thousand credits and the only use for it is to make the weapon compatible with the Crushing assault talent, which is admittedly a nice talent, but you're relying on the GM being nice enough to hand you a Cinnagaran version of your weapon of choice.

I may have to replace Dashade then, but the weapon in question will not be changed. I have a feeling the campaign will involve enemy Force-users, so the ability to knock them prone will definitely come in handy. Also, the build involves Devastating Attack (Threshold is 5 less) and Deadeye (+1 die of damage), so it isn't as less damage as you may believe. The -2 is still bad.

What about Baragwin? +1 die on a crit after multiplying for the same price as Dashade.

Baragwin is also really weak. You get a better DPR boost out of the Arkanian template, which is my favorite for snipers, because you set the target on fire. Sure, the damage is usually only 1d3, but it's a free 1d3, every round.

Or, if you have Int 13, you could get the Verpine template, giving you that ion backup you want, although as has been pointed out ion weaponry is garbage in Saga. Or you could go for the perpetually handy Quick Draw template.

[Getsugaru]

No, that's exactly as less damage as I assumed - Deadeye (and Careful Shot) are always part of a sniper build, and Devastating Attack very often is. It's just that sonic weapons consistently do one less die of damage than the equivalent blaster weapon, that's all; this is (more or less) balanced by the inability of saber slingers to Deflect shots from sonic weapons. Earlier you were talking about carrying a backup ion weapon to deal with droids; instead of that, I'd suggest carrying a backup blaster weapon to deal with non-Force users (the DLT-20A Longbarrel, CW CG p62, is a particular favorite).

The first and biggest problem with Baragwin is that crits just don't happen often enough to be a reliable source of extra damage. After that you get to the fact that adding an extra die after multiplying is on the weak side, and also that crits are the one time you absolutely shouldn't have any trouble beating your opponent's DT even without that. Cinnagaran OTOH is a great addition to an anti-Force weapon because it adds an extra damage type (bludgeoning) that bypasses Negate Energy - the Force user's other way of shutting down most attackers - and it's also the same price as both Dashade and Baragwin.

I'd consider it, but I only have a measly 2000 credits left after the mods I've made, and if I were to get another blaster, I'd want to add things like a Bipod, retractable stock, Quick Draw template, some other template to make it even scarier, etc. I just don't have the credits for that at the moment (maybe in a couple levels when I get more money I'll have the Noble with connections track something down for me ).

Perhaps Cinnagarian is the way to go after all; both damage types would be unblockable by a lightsaber, and if they try Negate Energy, they're in for a big surprise ("Query: Did I forget to explain earlier why it is I refer to this weapon as a 'Jedi Killer?'").

Saga doesn't work that way. If a weapon deals two damage types, then any affect that blocks either of the component damage types will block the whole attack, so you don't eliminate a vulnerability, you add a new one. Granted, I don't think Saga has any sort of DR/Bludgeoning or similar, but still, it's a thousand credits and the only use for it is to make the weapon compatible with the Crushing assault talent, which is admittedly a nice talent, but you're relying on the GM being nice enough to hand you a Cinnagaran version of your weapon of choice.

According to KotOR Campaign Guide pg 70, "sonic damage cannot be deflected with a lightsaber. If a weapon deals bonus sonic damage in addition to its normal damage and is not purely an energy attack, the attack can be deflected by a lightsaber, but the target still takes the sonic damage regardless (just not the weapon's normal energy damage) if the attack would normally hit." Therefore, if an attack deals damage in multiple forms, blocking one does not block all.

Baragwin is also really weak. You get a better DPR boost out of the Arkanian template, which is my favorite for snipers, because you set the target on fire. Sure, the damage is usually only 1d3, but it's a free 1d3, every round.

Or, if you have Int 13, you could get the Verpine template, giving you that ion backup you want, although as has been pointed out ion weaponry is garbage in Saga. Or you could go for the perpetually handy Quick Draw template.

I am giving up on ion damage for now; if it comes up as something I would need, I'll find a bar and buy an ion rifle or something. As for Arkanian, I'm having trouble tracking down whether or not fire damage is a subtype of energy damage; if it is, it won't get past Negate Energy. Also, I already have the Quick Draw template.

[LibraryOgre]

The Mod Wonder: Locked for Length. Feel free to copy over your last couple posts if you feel you need the context. New thread here.