SW Saga Edition Thread 2: The Sith Lords

[Vertharrad]

fair enough, now personally I would still allow rapid shot to be used with say a grenade launcher, and I see little reason to weaken autofire in relation to burst weapons even more. (great, another houserule )




But in that case you would only get a -2 penalty not a -7 (see the normal: description for burst fire, counting it as a ordinary attack (except for ammo) means no -5 penalty for autofire)

Burst Fire gives you extra dice to 1 target, autofire does damage to every target within a 2x2 square...more if you have a particular feat/talent(I forget which). So explain how keeping things the way they should be weakens autofire. Autofire gives you more bang for your buck in the damage department in comparison.

[Waar]

Burst Fire gives you extra dice to 1 target, autofire does damage to every target within a 2x2 square...more if you have a particular feat/talent(I forget which). So explain how keeping things the way they should be weakens autofire. Autofire gives you more bang for your buck in the damage department in comparison.

A weapon with a x-square burst or for short a burst weapon (like a missile launcher or a grenade) lets you target a (2x)*(2x) Square area without penalty. A autofire capable weapon lets you target a 2*2 Square area with a -5 penalty (and afaik 2 ≤ x for all burst weapons).

This game has both burst and burst fire, and these are quite different

[Nerd-o-rama]

To my knowledge, every burst weapon except thrown grenades requires heavy weapons proficiency, though.

I'm pretty sure - speaking as a noob here - autofire's niche is for doing damage to large numbers of low-level things (without much Reflex defense) without having to pay for grenades, or attacking Jedi who don't have Evasion but do have Move Object (or other things that have single-attack-cancelling abilities)

[Waar]

To my knowledge, every burst weapon except thrown grenades requires heavy weapons proficiency, though.

There is a micro grenade launcher, but appart from that, yeah pretty much.

I'm pretty sure - speaking as a noob here - autofire's niche is for doing damage to large numbers of low-level things (without much Reflex defense) without having to pay for grenades, or attacking Jedi who don't have Evasion but do have Move Object (or other things that have single-attack-cancelling abilities)

Autofire serves as a emergency/inferior (but cheap) substitute to burst weapons. burst and by extension autofires purpose is twofold: to hit many opponents at once and to do damage to opponents with to high defence scores (usefull for dealing with mooks and for mooks dealing with heroics, respectively).

note that the deflect talent can be used against autofire (but not at full efficiency)

[Mando Knight]

Then no autofire...unless you also use Burst Fire.

Check the text for Burst Fire again: "Without this feat, if you attempt an autofire attack at a specific target, it simply counts as a normal attack and all the extra shots are wasted."

But in that case you would only get a -2 penalty not a -7 (see the normal: description for burst fire, counting it as a ordinary attack (except for ammo) means no -5 penalty for autofire)

I suppose that would be fair, since you're already wasting ammo.

note that the deflect talent can be used against autofire (but not at full efficiency)

Deflect, but not redirect, which is important.

Also, autofire is very useful in the hands of an elite rifle user. There's more feat and talent support for autofire than for other area attacks, and someone with a focus in rifles and using Controlled Burst may even have a higher attack roll with the rifle than with grenades.

[Vertharrad]

Check the text for Burst Fire again: "Without this feat, if you attempt an autofire attack at a specific target, it simply counts as a normal attack and all the extra shots are wasted."

I suppose that would be fair, since you're already wasting ammo.

Deflect, but not redirect, which is important.

Also, autofire is very useful in the hands of an elite rifle user. There's more feat and talent support for autofire than for other area attacks, and someone with a focus in rifles and using Controlled Burst may even have a higher attack roll with the rifle than with grenades.

I'm sure this is pointing at that it's better to use an normal attack to attack 1 target than to use autofire, unless you have burst fire and can effectively attack 1 target in autofire mode. Which then comes down to do you autofire or normal attack? answer: depends on the situation. Or answer get burst fire or some other feat/talent that will help you.

[IdleMuse]

Burst Fire is pretty OP with a certain combo of talents I'll look up in a sec...

The real weakling of the options though, is the TERRIBLE feat Spray Shot from Clone Wars... I'm really struggling to see what this is for.

Anyway; OP build; if you can get Burst Fire, Autofire Assault, Controlled Burst, and Riflemaster, with a Heavy Blaster Rifle with a Pulse Charger (and Superior Damage if you can), you can be kicking out a whole mess of damage. 5d12 I think, base? But you can stack on stuff like Destructive Ambusher for extra d12s, then some of the Gunslinger talents with Old Faithful, it's pretty easy to get ludicrous damage like that.

In short, Autofire WAY better than grenades, for damage output, like Mando Knight said.

[Waar]

Also, autofire is very useful in the hands of an elite rifle user. There's more feat and talent support for autofire than for other area attacks, and someone with a focus in rifles and using Controlled Burst may even have a higher attack roll with the rifle than with grenades.

Burst Fire is pretty OP with a certain combo of talents I'll look up in a sec...

The real weakling of the options though, is the TERRIBLE feat Spray Shot from Clone Wars... I'm really struggling to see what this is for.

Anyway; OP build; if you can get Burst Fire, Autofire Assault, Controlled Burst, and Riflemaster, with a Heavy Blaster Rifle with a Pulse Charger (and Superior Damage if you can), you can be kicking out a whole mess of damage. 5d12 I think, base? But you can stack on stuff like Destructive Ambusher for extra d12s, then some of the Gunslinger talents with Old Faithful, it's pretty easy to get ludicrous damage like that.

In short, Autofire WAY better than grenades, for damage output, like Mando Knight said.

yes burst fire is capable of doing what it is supposed to (and then some ), In the context used (rapid shot with autofire or burst weapons) burst fire being a strong option is however irrelevant (since, as you no doubt know, rapid shot and burst fire dosen't stack) and letting rapid shot be used in combination with autofire and burst (and splash, for good measure ) weapons isn't doing the very strong burst fire combination any favors.

and Idlemuse, add double attack(rifles) and multiattack proficiency(rifles) and you will have your op

edit: I assume you mean the Autofire Assault talent since there is a feat with that very name (the amount of things that use the same name in this game is a bit much)

[Hyena]

Right now I am experiencing a cognitive dissonance.
In the core book there's a race called quarren. They receive -2 to charisma because they "tend to toward deficiencies in social graces". "But Hyena" - you might say - "What's the big deal? Plenty of races get -2 to charisma in DnD because of that exact reason".
Well... Do these races also receive a free skill focus (persuasion)? Because quarren totally do.

[Waar]

Right now I am experiencing a cognitive dissonance.
In the core book there's a race called quarren. They receive -2 to charisma because they "tend to toward deficiencies in social graces". "But Hyena" - you might say - "What's the big deal? Plenty of races get -2 to charisma in DnD because of that exact reason".
Well... Do these races also receive a free skill focus (persuasion)? Because quarren totally do.

There are several species with a similar "duality" in saga: the cerans are experts at initaitve, but have a dex penalty, rodians are great at survival and perception, but have a wis penalty, and thats just the core book.

I interpert this as stating: this species is generally bad at stuff related to this stat: exept the following...

If it helps you could think of it as: They "tend towards deficiencies in wisdom and social graces" but they still get people to listen to them

[Nerd-o-rama]

The real weakling of the options though, is the TERRIBLE feat Spray Shot from Clone Wars... I'm really struggling to see what this is for.

Autofire-spamming Jedi without hitting people in melee with them? But really, just take Overwhelming Attack and shoot them normally, a -5 penalty is fine, and it works on every attack-negation roll.

[Mando Knight]

Anyway; OP build; if you can get Burst Fire, Autofire Assault, Controlled Burst, and Riflemaster, with a Heavy Blaster Rifle with a Pulse Charger (and Superior Damage if you can), you can be kicking out a whole mess of damage. 5d12 I think, base? But you can stack on stuff like Destructive Ambusher for extra d12s, then some of the Gunslinger talents with Old Faithful, it's pretty easy to get ludicrous damage like that.

In short, Autofire WAY better than grenades, for damage output, like Mando Knight said.

The Heavy Blaster Rifle with Pulse Charger means you'll be burning through power packs like crazy (especially since it doesn't note whether you can hook it up to a power generator for longer term use), though. 15 shots means you have to change your pack after every three rounds.

[Waar]

The real weakling of the options though, is the TERRIBLE feat Spray Shot from Clone Wars... I'm really struggling to see what this is for.

Autofire-spamming Jedi without hitting people in melee with them? But really, just take Overwhelming Attack and shoot them normally, a -5 penalty is fine, and it works on every attack-negation roll.

Spray shot isn't good, but I could see it being usefull if you want to use autofire at a opponent in melee with several of your allies, and why would you want to do that? well there are some talents and feats that give autofire/area attacks additionall effects, but that's about it.

[Hyena]

Okay. Since my character is dead, I'm making a new one. How is that for a build?

[Nerd-o-rama]

Okay. Since my character is dead, I'm making a new one. How is that for a build?

I dunno I have a lot more fun with Operative spec I have nothing useful to say.

[Hyena]

Yes, quite right - this is a character for a game that takes place in the times of SWTOR. Also, sniper is so obviously better that an operative.

[Nerd-o-rama]

More efficient DPS, sure, but can a Sniper have three yard-long vibroknives sticking out of the same enemy at once?

[kreenlover]

I wish I could play that game so I knew what everyone was talking about...

To get back on track that character seems really good. Although I'm not really seeing the necessity for Tech Specialist...

[Cruel Kindness]

First off, thanks everyone for maintaining this thread. It, and it's sire thread, have been filled with informed opinions that are a great resource for people like myself who are new to Saga Ed. I literally made an account for this thread. Which leads me to why I'm here now... I'll try to be brief and concise.

Starting a campaign, everyone's new to SWSE but we're all adept with d20, OWoD, et cetera. 3 players, one pursuing the Bounty Hunter archetype, one some kind of Jedi historian, and myself thinking pilot/mechanic/engineer... I played a Tech Specialist in the other SWd20, and had great fun being the crafter but still semi combat effective. GM said we'd all have a 2 year montage raising us from 1st lvl up to 3rd or 5th, he's not too sure. Raxus Prime sounded like a good place to start a scrounger-mechanic, and I had this great idea: a force sensitive mechanic using Tutaminis to recharge battery cells from one another or transferring energy to spontaneously test computer components to "recycle", eventually building a junker ship to get off the planet. Sadly, I can only find basic usages of Tutaminis like Shield. Anybody know the books well enough to point me in the right direction?

Edit: Doesn't have to be Tutaminis exactly, but is there any ability similar to what I've described above, force related or otherwise?

Edit 2: ... stupid phone keyboard.

[kreenlover]

There was force control which allowed you to spend a force point to use another force power as a free action after absorb energy

...but I don't think thats what you are looking for. Honestly, I'd homebrew (*gasp*) a force power that let you recharge a power pack per use. Doesn't seem too OP compared to some of the ones out there.

Somebody else may know more about this (Like MandoKnight, Waar, Hyena, and Nerd-o-rama and Alejandro (How could I forget Alejhandro! I apologize a thousand times))

[Mando Knight]

First, there are no written rules for what you want, as far as I'm aware. Tutaminis, or more colloquially Force Absorb, (I prefer the latter term, as the fancy names get in the way of the meaning) is focused on the redirection of power, not the creation of it. Furthermore, the Force seems to react with electrical power on a relatively rough scale... Force Lightning and Storm, rather than Force Reprogram or Force Power Converter.

Personally, I don't like letting the Force do too much technologically... most Star Wars tech isn't "alive" with the Force, and the knowledge to make Force-based technology is mostly lost and/or heavily steeped in the Dark Side, with the exception of Holocrons and lightsabers.

That said, meditation and regimens allow for more precise manipulation of the Force than Force Powers do... there isn't a Force Make Lightsaber power, for example. Recharging power packs using the Force during downtime would be basically be replacing a 100 credit item. With an existing power source and four hours' meditation, I'd allow a fairly easy (DC 15) UtF check to transfer the power to one power pack or energy cell (the same time period to do the same work as a power recharger), if trained in Mechanics.

However, I flatly wouldn't allow replacing the Mechanics checks with Use the Force checks, though I would allow UtF in place of some machinery, with the caveat that I would reserve the right to increase the DC of the UtF check depending on the precision level you're going for. Moving a plate of durasteel about 9 meters is one thing, but moving it precisely 8.991 meters and holding it in place while installing two dozen rivets is quite another.

[Alejandro]

First off, thanks everyone for maintaining this thread. It, and it's sire thread, have been filled with informed opinions that are a great resource for people like myself who are new to Saga Ed. I literally made an account for this thread. Which leads me to why I'm here now... I'll try to be brief and concise.

Starting a campaign, everyone's new to SWSE but we're all adept with d20, OWoD, et cetera. 3 players, one pursuing the Bounty Hunter archetype, one some kind of Jedi historian, and myself thinking pilot/mechanic/engineer... I played a Tech Specialist in the other SWd20, and had great fun being the crafter but still semi combat effective. GM said we'd all have a 2 year montage raising us from 1st lvl up to 3rd or 5th, he's not too sure. Raxus Prime sounded like a good place to start a scrounger-mechanic, and I had this great idea: a force sensitive mechanic using Tutaminis to recharge battery cells from one another or transferring energy to spontaneously test computer components to "recycle", eventually building a junker ship to get off the planet. Sadly, I can only find basic usages of Tutaminis like Shield. Anybody know the books well enough to point me in the right direction?

Edit: Doesn't have to be Tutaminis exactly, but is there any ability similar to what I've described above, force related or otherwise?

Edit 2: ... stupid phone keyboard.

Congrats, you made me look up tutaminis, so I would have some idea what you were talking about. :)

I suggest that yourself and the GM agree to modify the Force power Drain Energy (Jedi book) such that you can, after draining energy from the target, place it into another target within range, but this requires a slightly more difficult roll. I can't think of very many actual ingame situations, however, where you would need to do this, as power packs and power sources are extremely common unless you are on a primitive or barren world with no tools or supplies (which is bad for many other reasons.) Also, there are not many situations where you would want to take from an existing power source and place it in an empty one, when you could just recharge or connect whatever you have to the source with a Mechanics check.

In short, it's totally possible to do, but I can't think of many actual at the table reasons to need to do it. You'd be better off making a Force sensitive mechanic like Bao Dur, who is simply good at Mechanics and using the Force.

[Mando Knight]

In short, it's totally possible to do, but I can't think of many actual at the table reasons to need to do it. You'd be better off making a Force sensitive mechanic like Bao Dur, who is simply good at Mechanics and using the Force.

And punching things with glowy repulsorfield arms.

[Alejandro]

And punching things with glowy repulsorfield arms.

Punching things with glowy repulsorfield arms after using Battle Strike.

[Cruel Kindness]

So, what I'm basically getting is "don't make things hard on yourself", which is fine. I have a bad habit of overthinking things and coming up with convoluted solutions. Maybe, if I want to make a grease monkey, I should focus on that and splash some Telekinesis (I can't reach that tool) and Mind Trick ("This is a fully restored targeting computer from a vintage PTR-3 Vedette, you can sell it for five times what you're offering me").

Which classes and/or talent trees are best to look into for a mixture of ground/vehicle effectiveness? I've picked up that Evasion is great for whenever I'm piloting as well as on foot, any other tips?

Edit: I was using the name Tutaminis to refer to the "umbrella" of force powers it covers such as Force Absorb and Force Shield.

[IdleMuse]

The Heavy Blaster Rifle with Pulse Charger means you'll be burning through power packs like crazy (especially since it doesn't note whether you can hook it up to a power generator for longer term use), though. 15 shots means you have to change your pack after every three rounds.

Yeah, that is the downside. But you can do stuff like strip the Stun setting to add more capacity, possibly? Or be a Gonk droid and wire it into yourself :D

Or just, make sure they're dead in three rounds. A build with stuff like this can easily hit an average of 70 damage per hit.

[Alejandro]

Yeah, that is the downside. But you can do stuff like strip the Stun setting to add more capacity, possibly? Or be a Gonk droid and wire it into yourself :D

Or just, make sure they're dead in three rounds. A build with stuff like this can easily hit an average of 70 damage per hit.

There is a great disturbance in the Force. I have sensed Brit.

[Cruel Kindness]

I think my last post was a bit vague. Concept is a scraper, so I'm looking for classes or talent trees that focus on jury rigging things and can support a pilot/engineer but doesn't specialize me so far that I'm scratching my bum when a blaster fight breaks out. Also, lightsabers not required for my concept. Just want him to have a dash of sensitivity and a power or two (mainly for flavor). Decided on human, taking place in the almost-Legacy timeline (59 ABY to be precise, just after the death of Darth Cadus).

[Alejandro]

I think my last post was a bit vague. Concept is a scraper, so I'm looking for classes or talent trees that focus on jury rigging things and can support a pilot/engineer but doesn't specialize me so far that I'm scratching my bum when a blaster fight breaks out. Also, lightsabers not required for my concept. Just want him to have a dash of sensitivity and a power or two (mainly for flavor). Decided on human, taking place in the almost-Legacy timeline (59 ABY to be precise, just after the death of Darth Cadus).

You need to look at the Improviser and possibly Saboteur prestige classes. Also, why not know the Force power Vital Transfer? That way, you can repair other PCs, not just machines. :)

[Mando Knight]

Yeah, that is the downside. But you can do stuff like strip the Stun setting to add more capacity, possibly?

Extra Power Source could work, so long as you keep things down to 6 rounds (since you need to replace each pack individually), while Improved Energy Cell would grant double shots on a single pack.

If you don't mind making it a (relatively) stupidly short-ranged weapon, you could even strip it down to thrown range and use both. (Exotic stripping costs either a feat or a PrC talent, but may be better for this)