SW Saga Edition Thread 2: The Sith Lords

[BlueBiscuit]

So, I'm preparing to run Dawn of Defiance for a group of players, and they are all new to Saga. So am to running it, though I have played it.

Any advice on running this module? Pitfalls, problems with it?

[Silus]

Ok, so short and sweet, I'm playing an explosives heavy character and I am in need of material suggestions for anti-armor and anti-personnel IEDs ('Cause what's the point of playing a Rebel if you can't use an IED on occasion?). Thermal Detonators are, sadly, out.

Was going with a combination of Thermite Gel, Detonite, shrapnel and a remote trigger, but apparently the thermite gel wouldn't be effective enough to warrant its use. And the DM has all but outlawed any white phosphorus type material usage (party pooper).

And while we're on the subject, ARE there any rules for crafting up remote detonated IEDs?

[Mando Knight]

The Military Engineer class from the Clone Wars campaign guide gives you the ability to make random weapons out of thin air (including anti-vehicular mines at level 3 or thermal detonators at 4 if the GM permits it), and the Saboteur class also has explosive related talents.

Detonite itself is an explosive that can be set with a detonator, dealing 5d6 damage, which is more than enough for exploding stormtroopers. The rules for stacking explosives for more damage are terrible, though. Flechette mines from The Force Unleashed campaign guide deal 8d6 (and would be thematically similar to detonite with shrapnel, if built by someone with the expertise), and anti-vehicular mines from the same book deal 10d6, the same as explosive charges.

The remote detonator you already have, and by RAW can be set into any explosive, so it's just a matter of haggling with the GM about what bits you need for the IED.

[LibraryOgre]

Common explosives for our groups have always been power packs from blasters and random droids. However, I agree with Mando... a lot of this is going to come down to your GM.

[Mando Knight]

Military Engineers can also turn any energy cell using device into a frag grenade as a swift action using the Sabotage Device talent.

[LibraryOgre]

Military Engineers can also turn any energy cell using device into a frag grenade as a swift action using the Sabotage Device talent.

Swift action? That's nuts.

[Mando Knight]

Swift action? That's nuts.

There's a secret button on everything that turns them into bombs. Sabotage Device just tells the Military Engineer where it is.

Also, noting that the A-Wing has a jammer, I've been pondering writing up an unorthodox vehicle-focused character build: less investment in shooting things dead, more in things like an unbeatable jamming device and hordes of temp HP. Could work for both a ship's engineer and for a pilot of an electronic warfare starfighter.

[Alexander leah]

hey guys i'm looking for some character concepts, my scout/pilot had accidentally become one of the most influential pirate in the galaxy, high corsais of corellia, captain of a huge dreadnaught with something like 200 pirates at my commands, problem is that now that we have currently finished our mission, Kotor age, we helped the corellian resistance against the sith occupation of darth revan, now the other players want to continue be a republican special team, so they arent interested in following me or my crew, and the republic dont want to deal with pirates, so i wil just join with a new character,we are level 14, the rest of the team are: 2 force wizards, one is a telekinetic jedi, the other one is a grey user of the force specilized in subtle powers (illusion,invisibility,mind shard,tecnometry ecc.), a noble diplomat with little combat utility and absurdly high social skills and an ex militaric medic, with very good defenses, but zero offensive ability.
do you have any good idea or concept that could mesh well with them?

[Fumble Jack]

You could go Master Privateer prc just under contract with the Republic if you want to keep your old character. However from what you describe of the others, you could go with a blaster bunny type character focused on offense or a focused melee build

[Nerd-o-rama]

I would say find someone in the Republic willing to make a deal with some privateers - given how desperate the Republic's fight against Revan and Malak gets, having some well-paid freebooters going and disrupting their supply lines can only help. Then hand formal command of the ship off to the most experienced officer, hang on to your ownership papers, and go back to adventuring with your friends.

Or if you want to go with your original idea yeah, your group could probably use someone who uses weapons to kill people dead. Aside from the mentioned gunslinger or power melee, a Heavy Weapons-focused Soldier could also hypothetically pick up the Piloting duties of your old character without much trouble, although he probably wouldn't be as effective at it.

[Mando Knight]

captain of a huge dreadnaught with something like 200 pirates at my commands,

How do you captain a "huge dreadnaught" with only 200 crew? Lots of automation, I guess...

Or if you want to go with your original idea yeah, your group could probably use someone who uses weapons to kill people dead. Aside from the mentioned gunslinger or power melee, a Heavy Weapons-focused Soldier could also hypothetically pick up the Piloting duties of your old character without much trouble, although he probably wouldn't be as effective at it.

You only need two feats for a competent pilot: Vehicular Combat and Skill Focus: Pilot. A heavy weapons Soldier can take just those two feats, and then become a devastating fighter in or out of a vehicle because starship weapons are heavy weapons. In fact, I'd say that Soldier is the best class for a combat-focused pilot. Evasion is a talent you dip for, while Soldier grants full BAB and the Weapon Specialist tree.

[Alexander leah]

I would say find someone in the Republic willing to make a deal with some privateers - given how desperate the Republic's fight against Revan and Malak gets, having some well-paid freebooters going and disrupting their supply lines can only help. Then hand formal command of the ship off to the most experienced officer, hang on to your ownership papers, and go back to adventuring with your friends.

Or if you want to go with your original idea yeah, your group could probably use someone who uses weapons to kill people dead. Aside from the mentioned gunslinger or power melee, a Heavy Weapons-focused Soldier could also hypothetically pick up the Piloting duties of your old character without much trouble, although he probably wouldn't be as effective at it.

i became the captain by sheer luck (killed the previuos captain in a duel) and i just got the trust of the pirates so i cant just go away and leave the second in command into my place.

How do you captain a "huge dreadnaught" with only 200 crew? Lots of automation, I guess...

well it wasnt supposed that we could actually conquer an entire ship of pirates, so my gm didnt wanted to handle me too much manpower :P

An heavy soldier seems to be a good fit mechanically speaking, whats your thought about a jedi guardian? with more emphasis on the lightsaber than the force powers? i could still be a good pilot

[Hyena]

So, we had a boss encounter Star Wars a yesterday. One dark sider with high defenses and 8 of her mooks. During the entire battle, my sith just stood still, combining Draw Fire talent, Damage Reduction talent, his armor SR, his insane armor reflex bonus and total defense. He also happened to be nagai with trained persuasion. Long story short, the entire battle was enemies trying to hit me, failing to do so, my SR and DR soaking damage when they did hit me, and my allies just picking off enemies one by one.

I've lost only one hit point.

[Alexander leah]

nice, i was also thinking of somethink like that, with added the noble talent luck favor the bold for generating temp hp every round

[Mando Knight]

An heavy soldier seems to be a good fit mechanically speaking, whats your thought about a jedi guardian? with more emphasis on the lightsaber than the force powers? i could still be a good pilot

Guardian-types are decent, though you don't get the heavy weapons synergy in case your ship has pilot-manned weapons (and without Spacehound or WP: Heavy, you're unable to fill in a gunner seat much more competently than your Force wizards). If you have a spare talent but not a spare feat, you can save yourself Skill Focus: Pilot with Force Pilot instead... never go without Skill Focus: UtF, even on a Guardian/Battlemaster build. Jedi Academy Training Manual will give you more lightsaber-focused Force Powers if Battle Strike isn't enough for you.

[Alejandro]

One of my players has a dual wielding Gunslinger. He just hit level 12 and took the feat Collateral Damage.

Does the feat work with a full attack? That is, can he attempt the Collateral Damage secondary attack if each of his pistols hits, as long as their are valid targets within 2 squares? It says "when you deal damage with a single, non area attack using Rapid Shot" and does not explicitly say that it must be the only attack you make in the round.

[RandomLunatic]

One of my players has a dual wielding Gunslinger. He just hit level 12 and took the feat Collateral Damage.

Does the feat work with a full attack? That is, can he attempt the Collateral Damage secondary attack if each of his pistols hits, as long as their are valid targets within 2 squares? It says "when you deal damage with a single, non area attack using Rapid Shot" and does not explicitly say that it must be the only attack you make in the round.

I once made a character like that, and was very disappointed to be directed to the errata that nerfed Collateral damage to only working once per turn.

[Alejandro]

I have that very file and missed it.

Apparently I am stupid.

[Sasaisen]

I'm planning on running a Mass Effect game, in a similar vein to Mass Effect: Transcendence, except using SAGA as the base system with this conversion applied (though it is linked for reference, it shouldn't have much effect on this). Say that I make the following rule changes:

• Being trained in a skill is now the assumed baseline, with no modifier, while being untrained in a skill bestows a -3 penalty. Skill Focus is unchanged.
• Biotic (i.e. "Force") powers have all DCs dropped by 5.
• Characters add half their level to their defenses, instead of their full level.
• Characters add the higher of their Strength and Constitution modifiers to their Fortitude defense, the higher of their Dexterity and Intelligence modifiers to their Reflex defense, and the higher of their Wisdom and Charisma modifiers to their Will defense.
• Armor adds DR instead of overriding one's Reflex Defense (change made by the Mass Effect conversion).
• High BAB classes now have Medium BAB. Medium BAB classes now have Low BAB. Low BAB classes now have BAB equal to 1/4 their level.

How did I just bork the game?

[Mando Knight]

Nothing in Saga has 1/2 BAB by default... even the Noble has 3/4 BAB. Therefore, without Skill Focus, every biotic essentially grows their skill-attacks at the same rate as a Noble/Scoundrel/Scout.

The existing conversion already changed the interplay of defense vs offense towards the defensive character being able to soak hits (and the changes mean a character can soak a lot, even without a lot of investment) rather than avoid them. Changing defense per level and BAB in this manner means that this difference is amplified.

There's also a lot of... inelegant or incomplete systems in place in the current version of that conversion. Mostly the shield systems, which appear to have had a lot edited out for further updates and the concept (while making an effort to be true to the original games) is inherently clunky, with multiple layers of health needing to be worn down. The Armor Specialist talent tree is completely worthless as-is, since it's just not worth taking a useless talent in order to have access to Juggernaut.

[Sasaisen]

Nothing in Saga has 1/2 BAB by default... even the Noble has 3/4 BAB. Therefore, without Skill Focus, every biotic essentially grows their skill-attacks at the same rate as a Noble/Scoundrel/Scout.

With Skill Focus though, which everyone who uses biotics/tech more than incidentally will have, they start decently ahead at 1st level end up on par with the soldier. As opposed to breaking the RNG at 1st level and ending up on par with the soldier. I'm still not completely happy, but it's better.

Also, could've sworn there were prestige classes that gave out low BAB, but w/e.

Changing defense per level and BAB in this manner means that this difference is amplified.

How so? If anything, this seems to me a buff to offense. Considering that BAB is going from 1 or 3/4 to 3/4 or 1/2, and skills are only losing part of a RNG-breaking modifier, while Defenses are going from 1 to 1/2, it seems to be Defenses are getting the shorter end of the stick here.

There's also a lot of... inelegant or incomplete systems in place in the current version of that conversion. Mostly the shield systems, which appear to have had a lot edited out for further updates and the concept (while making an effort to be true to the original games) is inherently clunky, with multiple layers of health needing to be worn down. The Armor Specialist talent tree is completely worthless as-is, since it's just not worth taking a useless talent in order to have access to Juggernaut.

I agree, there's work to be done there. My primary concern, however, is to get the core math on the same page regarding Skill vs Defense and Attack vs Defense, since biotic and tech powers are even more prevalent in ME than force powers are in SW.

[Mando Knight]

How so? If anything, this seems to me a buff to offense. Considering that BAB is going from 1 or 3/4 to 3/4 or 1/2, and skills are only losing part of a RNG-breaking modifier, while Defenses are going from 1 to 1/2, it seems to be Defenses are getting the shorter end of the stick here.

It is. What I meant was, a defensive character in base Saga can focus on pumping Reflex sky-high, and then levels in Elite Trooper and Soldier will take care of the rest... negating attacks is the primary source of defense in that instance. The base conversion shifts higher-optimization defenses towards soak over negation (by cancelling the +3 or +4 to Reflex that the armor would have given with Improved Armored Defense), which is in the attacker's favor due to how high defenses can get in Saga (the loss of IAD means that they'd need to be rolling 16s rather than 19s against defensive characters). With the defense/BAB rebalance, offensive characters gradually become able to hit at-level defensive opponents much more reliably (even down to 50% hit rates), though low-BAB characters would still relatively struggle to hit defensive characters due to the availability of fairly large defense bonuses (Ace Pilot or Gunslinger for +4 Reflex, Martial Arts also grants stacking dodge bonuses to Reflex, etc.) compared to the available attack bonuses.

Another effect is that due to the slower defense growth and the high base weapon damage (particularly with the conversion), lower level opponents are able to threaten higher level characters much more easily without relying on Coordinated Attack or Autofire (the latter barring Evasion, of course).

I agree, there's work to be done there. My primary concern, however, is to get the core math on the same page regarding Skill vs Defense and Attack vs Defense, since biotic and tech powers are even more prevalent in ME than force powers are in SW.

With the major power boost that Skill Focus grants to skill-based attacks, I'd do it by rescaling skill-attacks themselves. As-is, a Skill Focus character would get the equivalent of five stacking Weapon Focus feats. Without other bonuses (i.e. Weapon Focus), the attack bonus then becomes equal to a max-BAB character's at level 20, and is much stronger at lower levels. Not-max-BAB weapon-based characters would have no chance at catching up with a Skill Focus-boosted skill-attacking character.

[LibraryOgre]

I'm planning on running a Mass Effect game, in a similar vein to Mass Effect: Transcendence, except using SAGA as the base system with this conversion applied (though it is linked for reference, it shouldn't have much effect on this). Say that I make the following rule changes:

• Being trained in a skill is now the assumed baseline, with no modifier, while being untrained in a skill bestows a -3 penalty. Skill Focus is unchanged.
• Biotic (i.e. "Force") powers have all DCs dropped by 5.
• Characters add half their level to their defenses, instead of their full level.
• Characters add the higher of their Strength and Constitution modifiers to their Fortitude defense, the higher of their Dexterity and Intelligence modifiers to their Reflex defense, and the higher of their Wisdom and Charisma modifiers to their Will defense.
• Armor adds DR instead of overriding one's Reflex Defense (change made by the Mass Effect conversion).
• High BAB classes now have Medium BAB. Medium BAB classes now have Low BAB. Low BAB classes now have BAB equal to 1/4 their level.

How did I just bork the game?

Personally, I would do away with the "Half level to defenses", and change all classes to high BAB (1/1 BAB); it makes most attacks into straight level checks, and a much simpler scheme to keep up with, especially as multiclassing happens. Combat specialization happens through feats and talents, not choosing the right class.

I would also clarify "Skill Focus remains unchanged"; do you mean "Skill focus provides a +5 bonus" or "Skill focus provides a net +10 over attribute." I figure you mean the first, but I like clarity.

Otherwise, I think it's a solid set of changes. The combination of changes on Biotic powers and skills means that Biotics are not the juggernauts Jedi are in the normal game.

[Hyena]

Scum and Villainy features commercial and scratch built upgrades. Scratch-built are strictly inferior (cost twice as much and are more difficult to install), but otherwise I think they get no other descriptions. Is there something I'm missing?

[Mando Knight]

By RAW, the only advantage is not needing to get authorized to obtain your Pulse Charger, or have to scrounge around for it on the Black Market.

After a fashion, the increased cost makes sense: commercial parts are mass-produced (even if 0.001% of the population is authorized for the equipment, that means there's still trillions of customers in a galactic society), but you may need to get the right tools to machine the parts for your scratch-built mod, which will cost you extra.

[Alejandro]

By RAW, the only advantage is not needing to get authorized to obtain your Pulse Charger, or have to scrounge around for it on the Black Market.

After a fashion, the increased cost makes sense: commercial parts are mass-produced (even if 0.001% of the population is authorized for the equipment, that means there's still trillions of customers in a galactic society), but you may need to get the right tools to machine the parts for your scratch-built mod, which will cost you extra.

Uh oh. Don't toy with summoning the Adam Smith of Saga. The galactic economics can of worms is fascinating. :)

Also, weeks of illness suck.

[LibraryOgre]

Uh oh. Don't toy with summoning the Adam Smith of Saga. The galactic economics can of worms is fascinating. :)

Also, weeks of illness suck.

My condolences on the illness.

But, yeah, generally, trying to tie real-world economics to game worlds is going to be a lost cause. You can do some of it, on a limited scale, but it's very much an issue of "realize the limitations of your model".

[Alejandro]

My condolences on the illness.

But, yeah, generally, trying to tie real-world economics to game worlds is going to be a lost cause. You can do some of it, on a limited scale, but it's very much an issue of "realize the limitations of your model".

You know, it would make a great thesis paper, assuming the people reviewing it took you seriously. "An Analysis of Real Economics in an Imaginary Galaxy."

[Mando Knight]

But, yeah, generally, trying to tie real-world economics to game worlds is going to be a lost cause. You can do some of it, on a limited scale, but it's very much an issue of "realize the limitations of your model".

Oh, definitely. My rationalization for the increased cost is definitely on the handwave-y side, in my mind. Realistic galactic economics would make our macroeconomics look like a "Mom & Pop" shop evaluating its delivery orders.

If a player wanted to make his character around being the kind of tinkerer who built all his own super-custom stuff, though, I'd consider giving them a way around the increased cost, like decreasing the cost of making a second pulse charger after having already made the first. If the player wanted to take advantage of this to unseat the likes of KDY or Blastech, I'd start with a "Yeah? You and what thirteen septillion credit startup fund?"

[Alejandro]

Let's say someone who knows how to operate a ship and has decent smarts buys a used YT-1300. They pay 25K for it, legitimately. They put 5000 cash down, their life savings, and have to make monthly payments of 500 credits for the next 5 years. They'll have 2K a month in operating expenses for the ship and its needs, if they live on it, which covers their lifestyle expense as well.

How economically feasible is it for them to work as an independent shipper? Well, if we assume the captain is 1st level, then they can do legit shipping jobs at 1000 cr per job, from SOV. If they have a 2x hyperdrive and get average rolls, they might have 7 day trips. Let's say they can manage 3 runs a month, maybe a route between three planets that each ship something on to the next, 21 days in transit and 9 days for servicing the ship, delays, unloading and loading, etc. They've made 3000 cr, and pay 2500 in expenses. 500 left over as profit, to reinvest in the ship or buy equipment, or drinks, or whatever. So, totally doable, especially if the captain is a great astrogator and can make more runs per month. Then the profit margin really grows.

Of course, this pales compared to transporting paying passengers. Assuming you can find them, and assuming you're fine with the risks, the core book indicates chartered space transport is 10,000 cr for up to 5 days (probably taken directly from Han Solo's quote to Obi Wan.) If the captain makes even one of these runs in a month (and assuming there is no Death Star involved) they've just cleared 7500 in profit. If they manage this a few times, they can entirely pay off their ship loan principal, even if there's a penalty fee for doing so early. Even if we assume that Han was grossly overcharging because of what his customers wanted/were (a Jedi, or at least someone with a lightsaber, that wants no Imperial entanglements) and that our captain only charges half that, 5000, they've still made double what their operating costs for the month are. And that's only up to a 5 day rate. If the passengers want to go somewhere really far away, the meter is still running past those first five days. Now it's a ten thousand credit trip, etc.

Basically, a Saga ship captain wants to get his hands on a ship, make it as nice inside for passengers as possible, and get into the private transportation business. And if they can manage to both transport passengers AND an unrelated cargo at the same time, the numbers pile up even more.