SW Saga Edition Thread 2: The Sith Lords

[Krazzman]

Krazzman:

I don't disagree. The GM giving you the equivalent of adding +4 to your intelligence to unlock two extra skills is definitely keen, though it can somewhat lessen the need/desire to take classes like noble or scout that give you more starting skill points at level 1. For me, even though it is a cool GM move, kind of dilutes the more skill monkey classes and makes more viable the pure combat ones. Jedi and Soldier in particular. So I think from a gameplay aspect it is actually hurting the game by watering down the utility of your skill focused characters. And remember, outside of some more specific applications...you can pretty much use any skill as a hero. That is the way SAGA was designed. Just not as well as someone trained in it. Backgrounds are just an option available to GMs and recommended as less overpowering than the Destiny system.

My 2 cents! Enjoy your game! I always have fun playing SAGA.

Yes, but everyone got this. Not only the Jedi. And having 4 skillpoints instead of 2 is a big difference if you think about the need for UTF as a jedi so you basically only have 1+int skillpoints.

[Xaragos]

Yes, but everyone got this. Not only the Jedi. And having 4 skillpoints instead of 2 is a big difference if you think about the need for UTF as a jedi so you basically only have 1+int skillpoints.

I don't deny the benefits of the application for Jedi...and the utility of everyone getting it; I am just looking at it from a game balance/play standpoint. Jedi don't have a lot of skills because their focus is in learning the force, lightsaber, etc. Nothing wrong with the GM being nice though. Just some food for thought as I particularly like having to really think about which skills I take or which class I should choose at first level and beyond leveraging combat power with non-combat potential. In a diverse party, if everyone is not created equal, then each person gets a chance to shine and save the day. If everyone can do the same thing then it dilutes the story for me. Could you imagine C-3P0 saying "Sir, the possibility of successfully navigating an asteroid field is approximately 3,720 to 1" and then proceed to takeover the controls "I can handle this, thank the maker I was programmed to fly as well" :)

[kreenlover]

{{Scrubbed}}

[Sith_Happens]

{{Scrubbed}}

[kreenlover]

I actually hadn't noticed that blue was sarcasm

Thanks Sith.

Yah, the licencing issues mean that what is out there is what exists for saga. Unfortunately...
401 games in toronto has a lot of different books still if you wanted hard copies

[Krazzman]

Anyways, the issue gets a bit complicated when you consider that WotC actually has started selling 3.5 again (and I don't just mean the selected reprints; pretty much the whole edition is on DriveThruRPG now), although I'd assume there's some sort of licensing issues that would make it harder to do the same for SAGA.

Well you could also check on the official WotC site for SAGA and look up content there.

Oh wait there is an unexpected 404 in the force.

It is annoying. I searched for 20 minutes for character sheets to print and went through 8 threads that all linked to WotC. I doubt that they will touch SWSE anytime soon.

[kreenlover]

we should probably stop talking about that topic.

Sorry everyone.

[IdleMuse]

I think our Houserule is better than the "background" stuff (which seems to be from another system all together when I see it right, haven't really been able to check).

It's effectivly getting 2 more skills trained or one crossclass skill trained.

So far we have the KOTOR Campaign book on our iPad and the Core Rulebook in hardcover. That + a list that I received a link for really make for quite a selection of books. But we will look over them after testing the system and implementing them later if we see the need for them.

THe backgrounds system is significantly less powerful than this, it doesn't grant you ANY extra trained skills. Basically, each background has a list of three skills, and when you choose that background you pick one to gain as a class skill irrelevant of your class, as well as getting a super minor bonus (either an extra language learned, +2 on the other two skills IF untrained, or a small bonus or ability in a niche circumstance).

Someone mentioned character sheets above; this is tricky for Saga since the official one is pretty rubbish. There are a lot of other ones about though; I prefer MadIrishman's: http://www.mad-irishman.net/pub_starwars.html

[Sidmen]

So, I've been sitting here trying to make classic D&D "monsters" (like, say, a wolf, bear, or horse) and realized something: the Saga beast system is rubbish. It basically boils down to some shrugging and going "Eh, I guess they can be, like, non-heroic characters with no skills, less feats, and a much higher CL. Oh, and I guess they have natural weapons and natural armor, though I'm not sure how to make that useful..."

I then pulled up Unknown Regions and looked at its expanded Beast creation guide, and it just threw out some random, semi-useless stuff for very specific critters without any details about what effect, if any, it has on the critter's CL nor how to judge if something should have it or not.

I like the idea that all Beasts are built with a single class, but so far I'm forced to leave the Beast class as soon as level 4 hits and I can raise the critter's Intelligence to 3, even if it means that I then move them into the nonheroic class.

Anyone have any advice on how to make the Beast class less... handwavy? I'm currently thinking about going through and collecting a bunch of monster special abilities from D&D and giving Beasts one every odd level, like beast talents.

[LibraryOgre]

One thing I did with animals in 3.5 was ignore the rules and simply give them levels in NPC classes to represent their approximate difficulty.

If someone had a warhorse that they wanted to make a decent character, I'd level the horse up by giving it levels in Warrior. It was dumb enough that it didn't get skill points, but it got the advantage of HD, BAB, and save increases, as well as the relevant feats.

So, really? Make monsters as NPCs. Use my "classless" rules to pick and choose the features your monster needs. Are you making a big strong monster? Well, give it a base size and a few racial traits... but make most of the racial traits out of its talents and feats. Toss in Melee Smash and Stunning Strike. Give it the armor line of feats, with Juggernaut if you want it to be fast, or the Improved Armor Defense and Second Skin talents if you want it to be tough to injure. Got a bunch of cheeky monkey monsters that are supposed to annoy the players? Give them Evasion or Skirmisher. Since the classless rules let you mix up skills and feats as needed, you don't have to worry that your psycho monkey creatures aren't smart and so lose a lot of skills... they make them up in other feats that they bothered to take.

[Vertharrad]

Krazzman you might be able to find sheets at that sight I sent the link to.

As for beasts anyone else can go visit the sight and ask them how they do it. here Where the saga continues...

[Ahrimon]

A situation came up last night and I'm not sure that we ruled it right. We were holed up in a room with a sith outside. He was cutting through the door with his lightsaber. I delayed until the door opened. On the beginning of the sith's turn, the door opened and I hit him with force grip. This reduced him to a swift action only so he wasn't able to do anything. Then, by my understanding of the rules, my initiative dropped to after his. We ruled that he was stuck until my turn came around again so that I could attempt to maintain it. But that effectively left him trapped for two rounds. The round he was hit and his next because my initiative was after his.

Did we miss something? I just wanted to check since he effectively missed two turns due to the timing.

[Waar]

A situation came up last night and I'm not sure that we ruled it right. We were holed up in a room with a sith outside. He was cutting through the door with his lightsaber. I delayed until the door opened. On the beginning of the sith's turn, the door opened and I hit him with force grip. This reduced him to a swift action only so he wasn't able to do anything. Then, by my understanding of the rules, my initiative dropped to after his. We ruled that he was stuck until my turn came around again so that I could attempt to maintain it. But that effectively left him trapped for two rounds. The round he was hit and his next because my initiative was after his.

Did we miss something? I just wanted to check since he effectively missed two turns due to the timing.

What you described sound like a readied actions (can be activated during Another characters turn) as opposed to a delayed turn( wich iirc can't). A readied action puts you ahead of the initiative which triggered it (which stops this kind of stuff).

[Ahrimon]

Yes, sorry I did mean readied. I looked up the readied rules and apparently you move to before the person you interrupt. That was our mistake. Thanks.

[IdleMuse]

A situation came up last night and I'm not sure that we ruled it right. We were holed up in a room with a sith outside. He was cutting through the door with his lightsaber. I delayed until the door opened. On the beginning of the sith's turn, the door opened and I hit him with force grip. This reduced him to a swift action only so he wasn't able to do anything. Then, by my understanding of the rules, my initiative dropped to after his. We ruled that he was stuck until my turn came around again so that I could attempt to maintain it. But that effectively left him trapped for two rounds. The round he was hit and his next because my initiative was after his.

Did we miss something? I just wanted to check since he effectively missed two turns due to the timing.

What you described sound like a readied actions (can be activated during Another characters turn) as opposed to a delayed turn( wich iirc can't). A readied action puts you ahead of the initiative which triggered it (which stops this kind of stuff).

This is correct, you're describing a Readied action not a delay. Delaying is mostly for when you're not sure what the right course of action is and want to just let things play out for a bit before you decide.

[Alejandro]

Okay, time for another Wisdom of Crowds:

Sith Lord prestige class, Dun Moch class ability (or 'Temptation.) Can someone explain how to properly and effectively use this? It just seems... not that awesome. It eats the Sith Lord's standard action, to, if successful... punish the target if they spend a Force Point, or punish them harder if they spend a Destiny Point.

I can see one way to use this, but it requires the Sith Lord to not be the one actively combating the PC(s). The classic Palpatine, mocking Luke while Vader does the actual fighting. Palpatine is trying to weaken Luke with Dun Moch, hoping Luke will spend FPs or DPs and thus stack up DSPs.

But what good is this if the Sith Lord has to deal with a PC themselves, which is most likely the case in a Saga game? It seems the general flow would be:

Sith Lord: Nyah, evil! Don't spend a Force Point! There, that was my standard action.
PCs: OK. *makes a bunch of attacks being careful not to spend Force Points*
Sith Lord: Ouch! Fine, I'll use Force Lightning and Grip instead.

Compared to the Jedi Master's Serenity power, it just seems... underwhelming. Or am I missing some strong application?

Also, any suggestion for what to do if you don't use Destinies in your game, and thus strip out half the power of Dun Moch?

[Nerd-o-rama]

I haven't played a high level game of this yet, but as you say the basis for this ability is the climax of Return of the Jedi. And in case you forgot, that was being used on a single PC who was being tanked quite well by the Sith Lord's apprentice (and before that, actively not engaging in combat).

That's how it seems the ability is meant to be used - stand back and speech at the hero(es) while they're in the middle of fighting your minion(s). If you're cornered and don't have your beef wall with you, it's time to admit you've missed part of the point of being a Sith Lord in the first place, switch to Revenge of the Sith mode, and just whip out your saber and lightning.

[kreenlover]

Well, its basically to replicate the Palpatine feel. They were really trying to make you be able to make a Palpatine.

Otherwise, it is kinda meh.

What I would do is convert it to a Force Power that they get for free and give em something else (like Serenity) to replace it

[Hyena]

Well, if there's a beef apprentice and (mostly useless) talkative sith lord, it doubles the CR, which ultimately benefits the PC more then his opponents.

[Alejandro]

Not every Sith Lord is the same. Palpatine and Vader both have Sith Lord, but are very different in their style in and out of combat. Another way to put it would be, what good is Dun Moch to Vader, or any other Sith Lord that actually mixes it up with PCs?

[Nerd-o-rama]

The way combat usually flows in Star Wars films, there's lengthy pauses in the middle for one side or the other to disengage and catch their breath. It would be a good use of a combatant Sith Lord's time then (see Vader getting in on Palpatine's act to taunt Luke near the end of the RotJ fight), but as far as I can tell Saga doesn't really support that...

[Alejandro]

It might work better if it was simply a swift action instead of a standard.

[Mando Knight]

Dun Moch actually has its use: at high levels, it can be really hard to reliably hit an opponent without using Force or Destiny Points. Use it at the right time, against the right target, and you can turn an opponent against his own allies.

Of course, it has absolutely no use if you ignore Dark Side Points completely.

[Alejandro]

What if:

- Swift action
- Persuasion vs. Will
- Success: Target must choose: go 1 step down CT, or gain one DSP
- Subject cannot be reduced to unconciousness with Dun Moch

[Gamgee]

A lot of people at the edge of the empire forums don't even know what Mandalorians are. I feel like we're being obliterated from the lore lately.

[kreenlover]

A lot of people at the edge of the empire forums don't even know what Mandalorians are. I feel like we're being obliterated from the lore lately.

WHAT? HOW CAN THIS BE?
*sobs quietly forever and ever*

Yah, I've been slowly getting that feel too. I fear for what will happen to the Mando's (and the EU in general) when Disney really gets going

[LibraryOgre]

A lot of people at the edge of the empire forums don't even know what Mandalorians are. I feel like we're being obliterated from the lore lately.

They're very much present in The Old Republic.

[Nerd-o-rama]

A lot of people at the edge of the empire forums don't even know what Mandalorians are. I feel like we're being obliterated from the lore lately.

It is the circle of fandom karma. Just as the Jedi end up getting wiped out in-universe whenever they get too powerful, so too are the Mandalorians forgotten by fans and writers whenever they get too popular.

Or more likely the people on the EotE forums are only familiar with the movies.

[Dienekes]

It is the circle of fandom karma. Just as the Jedi end up getting wiped out in-universe whenever they get too powerful, so too are the Mandalorians forgotten by fans and writers whenever they get too popular.

Or more likely the people on the EotE forums are only familiar with the movies.

I'm ok with that. Mando's make no sense as a culture and their successes are ridiculous. But they turn hilarious when they inevitably lose, yet somehow are still around and taken seriously. It is puzzling.

[kreenlover]

Or more likely the people on the EotE forums are only familiar with the movies.

Which seems to be the point of EotE anyways