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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    littlebum2002's Avatar

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    Feb 2012

    Default Re: Lvl Draining (Belkar's and also in general)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    I detect a slight problem with what you're saying*. Is Magic Missile, and indeed every damage spell, WAY too strong? They can kill a character, after all. A character who you've been fighting for days to level up to fight a boss because that's what RPGs are about...uh.

    100 degrees Celsius.

    *I mean, other than that I'm not sure what spell you're referring to with "way too strong of a spell." The lowest-level spell I know that inflicts negative levels that stick around long enough that they might actually remove levels, is Energy Drain, a ninth-level spell!
    Magic missile can kill an enemy, if you're powerful enough. But what if you aren't? What if there is someone much more powerful enough that you can't kill through brute force? Then you could use guerrilla tactics. Attack him, drain a few levels, retreat. Do it again the next day, or the next week, or whenever his guard is lowered. Repeat until enemy is weak enough for you to beat using brute force.

    Of course, I know this is almost certainly impossible in D&D (Mainly because, as was stated, negative levels can come back, but also for other reasons I'm sure), but that's an example, in my mind, of why this would be much more powerful than any other 9th level spell, except perhaps Wish.
    ("I wish my foe lost a level". I wonder if the DM would allow that...)
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  2. - Top - End - #32
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Lvl Draining (Belkar's and also in general)

    Yeah, the main purpose for enervation in most casters' arsenal isn't to permanently cripple characters, its to soften them up by reducing their saving throws and other defenses for a more properly lethal attack.

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Kish's Avatar

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    Default Re: Lvl Draining (Belkar's and also in general)

    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    Magic missile can kill an enemy, if you're powerful enough. But what if you aren't? What if there is someone much more powerful enough that you can't kill through brute force? Then you could use guerrilla tactics. Attack him, drain a few levels, retreat. Do it again the next day, or the next week, or whenever his guard is lowered. Repeat until enemy is weak enough for you to beat using brute force.

    Of course, I know this is almost certainly impossible in D&D (Mainly because, as was stated, negative levels can come back, but also for other reasons I'm sure), but that's an example, in my mind, of why this would be much more powerful than any other 9th level spell, except perhaps Wish.
    You had said that Energy Drain is "way too powerful a spell" unless there's an easy way to restore lost levels. But I wouldn't call any of the ways of (e.g.) surviving Meteor Swarm or thwarting Shapechange (...I could go on for every offensively-usable ninth level spell in the core game, to contribute to my overall feeling of "huh?" here; do you really find Energy Drain nastier than Wail of the Banshee, Gate, Imprisonment, or Weird?...) anywhere near as "easy" as access to Restoration, so perhaps you should explain what you mean by "easy."
    Last edited by Kish; 2013-09-09 at 08:07 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Fishnet's Avatar

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    Default Re: Lvl Draining (Belkar's and also in general)

    Quote Originally Posted by Daywalker1983 View Post
    I on the other hand think he is right on the money.

    My first experience with lvl drain BGII, when you go up against the vampires in the graveyard. The way they were able to tear thorugh my group with but a few hits evoked exactly that feeling of helpless despair. It wasn't the damage, it was just that every succesful hit took away lvl until my guy was dead.
    Man, that game was so good at making you go "What the f..." Dead.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Lvl Draining (Belkar's and also in general)

    Quote Originally Posted by Daywalker1983 View Post
    It has been brought up from time to time that Belkar's loss of a lvl in the Battle of Azure City might put him behind of other members of the order in terms of progress and related power.

    Now that he's been drained again (this time it being a plot point) I wondered: I always took fro granted that his lvl was restored, much like wounds and other injuries are often cured off-panel. Now I know that this is not quite the same and restoration of lvls is quite a bit more challenging than restoring hit points.

    But that plus the fact that it was more or less a thowaway joke to end the page on a gag informs my question: Was the mentioned lvl loss permanent?

    What about other losses (not Belkar's current ones)?

    I'd very much like to have an answer from the Giant personally, seeing as he is the only one who can know. I know there's quite a lot of speculation possible on the topic, but that won't answer the question.

    I used google to search the boards, I'm sorry if this has been answered before.
    the thing about levels is the higher the level the mroe experience needed to get to the next one

    so if Belkar was a level behind them then hed not only level faster but get a larger chunk of XP in each combat so hed eventually catch back up to them

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    littlebum2002's Avatar

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    Default Re: Lvl Draining (Belkar's and also in general)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    You had said that Energy Drain is "way too powerful a spell" unless there's an easy way to restore lost levels. But I wouldn't call any of the ways of (e.g.) surviving Meteor Swarm or thwarting Shapechange (...I could go on for every offensively-usable ninth level spell in the core game, to contribute to my overall feeling of "huh?" here; do you really find Energy Drain nastier than Wail of the Banshee, Gate, Imprisonment, or Weird?...) anywhere near as "easy" as access to Restoration, so perhaps you should explain what you mean by "easy."

    Oh, that was just my ignorance of d&d showing. Since so many characters in oots uses energy drain (malack, Sabine, xykon) I assumed it was a lower level spell. But yeah, it seems like it fits up there with the other 9th level spells.
    Last edited by littlebum2002; 2013-09-09 at 08:17 PM.
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  7. - Top - End - #37
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Lvl Draining (Belkar's and also in general)

    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    Oh, that was just my ignorance of d&d showing. Since so many characters in oots uses energy drain (malack, Sabine, xykon) I assumed it was a lower level spell. But yeah, it seems like it fits up there with the other 9th level spells.
    They're not using it as a spell; it's an innate ability for certain undead and demons. It's like a dragon breathing fire—a dragon doesn't need to drink a potion of fire breathing, it just does it.

  8. - Top - End - #38
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Lvl Draining (Belkar's and also in general)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Check the bolded part and/or the description of Enervation; Enervation lasts for a maximum of 15 hours.

    Also...
    ...what, is this Pathfinder again? In 3.xed D&D the negative level goes away after 24 hours, whether you pass or fail the Fortitude save. If you fail the Fortitude save, then it takes an actual level with it.
    Ah, didn't see the 15 hour cap before. Thanks.

    As for Negative Levels disappearing on a failed save, my only reply is: meh. Kinda sucks, but can still be restored with a 4th-level spell if done within 1 day/caster level, which gives you a week at minimum to prepare Restoration or find someone who can cast it.

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