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2013-09-13, 01:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Last edited by gooddragon1; 2023-01-08 at 01:27 AM.
There is no emotion more useless in life than hate.
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2013-09-13, 09:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Melee Specialist [3.5 Base Class]
Forward: This critique will be bluntly honest, but I mean no disrespect to you in the process. I feel that straightforward critique is an important part o the design process and, although I may tear into parts of your creation, I will be more than happy to be a sounding board for improvements and/or changes.
Anyway...Begin critique.
I, for one, would not take this class for one level*, let alone 20. There simply isn't enough meat on the class framework. The class features can be summed up as Weapon Focus, +3 to attack rolls (via Anti-Armor Strikes), 4 bonus feats, some extra damage, and a capstone. Over 20 levels.
*I would take a 1-level dip on certain Fighter builds only because I'd grab more skill points, +2 extra to my Fort save, and a free "treat as a light weapon when beneficial" along with my Weapon Focus. I would then switch out to something else.
It's a relatively flat class that ultimately probably ends up a bit below the Fighter, as feats can typically make up the damage difference and offer more flexibility to boot.
So with that established, let's ask a few questions to give us some room to expand upon this class.
What can this class do that a Fighter can't?
This lets us know why this class is important, and how it should differ from the other "Versatile Master-at-Arms" class. If we can't answer this one we might want to look at making this a Fighter revision or a prestige class rather than a base class.
Imagine this class in combat (I.e. visualize a cinematic fight scene). What can it do?
I find this helps a LOT with ability design for combat classes. What and how does it fight? As written it just smacks things extra hard with one weapon. What else could it do? What else represents a weapon master?
How powerful should this be?
Ate you aiming for low-tier balance (Fighter, Paladin, Samurai, etc) or high-tier balance (Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Artificer)? Or are you aiming straight down the middle (Bard, Warblade, Rogue, etc)?
There are more questions to ask, but this will give us a solid basis for starting to flesh out the concept and the core abilities.Last edited by Djinn_in_Tonic; 2013-09-13 at 09:46 AM.
Ingredients
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2013-09-13, 07:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Melee Specialist [3.5 Base Class]
1>Be a simple class that can deal respectable damage without dipping into several different classes and items across many books.
2>That's pretty much it. It goes on the front line and hits things hard so that the enemy focuses on it rather than the squishies at the back.
3>Low-tier balance while still having respectable damage output.There is no emotion more useless in life than hate.
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2013-09-13, 08:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2012
Re: Melee Specialist [3.5 Base Class]
Good, but some feats can multiply the damage output more effectively, at least on a charge.
The problem with this class feature is that it comes out of nowhere. If the only worthwhile abilities of a class are the 1st and 20th level one, something is really wrong.
It's worse than a fighter at any level except 20th, where the classe gets an unexplanable power boost. As Djinn_in_Tonic mentioned, this class is better for a dip than it is in the long run, and most characters can't afford to suck for 18 consecutive levels.
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2013-09-13, 10:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Melee Specialist [3.5 Base Class]
The class generally doesn't have any flavor nor viability, it appears to be a tier6 NPC class.
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2013-09-13, 10:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2012
Re: Melee Specialist [3.5 Base Class]
I'd say tier 5. It's better than a warrior in a way that is enough to make the class somewhat useful to an adventuring party (decent class skills for a scout, fighter chassis, and some bonus feats to fill in the gaps), though a dedicated fighter end up better if he selects his feats well.
I take note of the Anti-Armor Strike ability though. Do you mind if I make it a feat?
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2013-09-13, 11:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Melee Specialist [3.5 Base Class]
Eh. Someone already suggested I do that with it and momentum so okay I guess.
On a separate note: I just wanted a nice simple class with a good amount of power that could whack stuff. I never wanted tier 1 so tier 5 is okay. Does the last ability (20th lvl) bump the tier up to 4 or higher though at least?Last edited by gooddragon1; 2013-09-13 at 11:15 PM.
There is no emotion more useless in life than hate.
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2013-09-13, 11:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Melee Specialist [3.5 Base Class]
Ehh... not really. Tier 5 means it's out-shined by other things even at what it's supposed to do. That it doesn't even function as a good beatstick.
The capstone means basically nothing in terms of power, it comes too late to matter and by the time you get it Fighters are Ubercharging or Chaintripping or hell even grappling and outdoing your full-attack's damage output, Rogues are sneak attacking and if they land even one are outdoing your entire damage. Clerics are Divine Powering and being better than this entire class. We won't even get into what Wizards and Druids are doing.
It needs a way to penetrate DR of other types since it sucks without its one and only weapon. It needs increased damage (perhaps treat its special weapon as a larger size for every three levels in the class). It REALLY needs something to do other than stand still and full attack. (Special abilities based on weapon type [See Exotic Weapon Master] could be useful) It needs something to fill in the 10-14 (depending on how you count them) dead levels. It needs the complete weapon focus line (improved critical, specialization, greater focus, greater specialization, maybe even some of the epic feats in that chain)
At the moment this class is better represented by 4 feats that are able to be taken as Fighter bonus feats and not as a class. It needs something to do for half of its levels and it needs to do something that the fighter can't.Having trouble writing up hard stat blocks but I'm doing a lot of sharing ideas and soft mechanics lately.
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2013-09-14, 02:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Melee Specialist [3.5 Base Class]
I included a way to get around DR at 6th level and an interesting (in my opinion) ability at 3rd level. The class was meant to go up and full attack not do other stuff really.
One may only guess where I got the name shatterpoint from...
Added some abilities to make it more difficult to damage or disarm the character of his chosen weapon.
No dead levels and some more cool stuff added. I basically asked myself: When does a melee attacker run into penalties or something he can't do.Last edited by gooddragon1; 2013-09-14 at 03:09 AM.
There is no emotion more useless in life than hate.
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2013-09-14, 03:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Melee Specialist [3.5 Base Class]
This is starting to shape more into a Warrior's Way sohei, which would be a decent re-flavoring for more of a fighter approach.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192596
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2013-09-14, 03:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Melee Specialist [3.5 Base Class]
I don't know if he'd add this class to that list and I'm too afraid to ask.
Also made an epic feat:
Shattered Steel [Epic]
Prerequisites: Steel As Water class feature, Shatterpoint class feature, Character level 24th, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Base Attack Bonus +20.
Benefit: You may sacrifice a use per day of your Shatterpoint ability to use Steel As Water an additional time per day for each use per day of Shatterpoint sacrificed. This sacrifice is made as a free action and lasts until the beginning of the next day.
Normal: You can only use Steel As Water once per day.
Special: You can only sacrifice uses of Shatterpoint that you gain from class levels and not from other sources.There is no emotion more useless in life than hate.
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2013-09-14, 03:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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2013-09-14, 03:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Melee Specialist [3.5 Base Class]
I looked at that and I mainly wanted this guy to focus on his weapon rather than the required abilities to survive for paranoid players (immunities, SR, etc.). He can get that from items if the DM really wants. This guy's focus is on his weapon and only that... and it is legendary. Just the flavor of an Su ability becoming an Ex... tingly.
Edit: Monks get perfect self and this guy gets perfect weapon handling. What the monk does with their spirit and body this guy does with his weapon.Last edited by gooddragon1; 2013-09-14 at 03:53 AM.
There is no emotion more useless in life than hate.
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2013-09-14, 11:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Melee Specialist [3.5 Base Class]
And that's a really cool idea that we've seen thousands of times in films and in books and would be a really cool thing to bring into D&D but this class does not do this as it stands and I will go feature by feature and explain to the best of my ability why.
This is another situational ability that does VERY little for the character overall.
I just have to jump out here and ask why?
What I'm kind of asking myself is where's the knocking arrows (and later even spells) out of the air to deal with ranged attacks, where's status effects (stun, nausea) from beating your momentum enhanced weapon down on their head or stomach as a standard action, where's throwing his weapon so he can hit the guy he can't reach otherwise, where's the tripping and disarming of his own, where are the options? (and yes, I know you want a simple class. Options don't mean it can't be simple. It just means it has something to do other than twiddling his thumbs in all situations.)
Stand and full-attack is not fun to play even when it's going well and it's far too easy to shut down. This character needs something to do other that or a way to do that well (such as a Move and Full-attack option, extra attacks during a full attack, extra damage, [which he does not have enough of] a way to negate any of the million and one lockdowns that prevent full-attacks) but even beyond needing ways to be able to make his shtick work, he needs a way to make it fun.
If all you want it to do is make full-attacks then it needs a way to be able to make those reliably, it needs to keep enemies from moving or be able to move and still make a full attack (Though maybe not full-on pounce), he needs a way to deal with flying creatures and creatures who are more mobile than he is (which is most of them) it needs a way to do more than to overcome "penalties or something he can't do." he needs something TO do.
This guy isn't a melee weapon specialist at the moment. He's a guy who can make a mediocre attack in more situations.Last edited by The Mentalist; 2013-09-14 at 11:12 AM.
Having trouble writing up hard stat blocks but I'm doing a lot of sharing ideas and soft mechanics lately.
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2013-09-14, 01:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2012
Re: Melee Specialist [3.5 Base Class]
Aside from The Mentalist's comments, I'd say Shatterpoint and Improved Shatterpoint are bad in design. Ignoring damage reduction /- with a very physical weapon is never justifiable IMO, and Improved Shatterpoint is nothing more than a ''screw you, IKEA Tarasque'' that only remotely match the fluff of the class, and it isn't even clear what constitute unusual defense and what doesn't. Total cover certainly is (which is weird, as the defender would then benefit more from a partial cover), but does distance, invisibility, a wall of force or the Divine Dodge SDA qualify as unusual defense that make your attacks unable to land? If so, you definitely went overbroad with it.
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2013-09-14, 01:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Melee Specialist [3.5 Base Class]
Sense Weakness
Qualities of the target are overcome, not qualities of barriers or obstacles between them.There is no emotion more useless in life than hate.
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2013-09-14, 02:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Melee Specialist [3.5 Base Class]
What it boils down to is:
You're making a fighter ACF.
This falls into the same category as fighter fixes, which are one of the biggest age-old debates in dnd homebrew.
What this means is, hunt around, read the warlord from Warrior's Way, read grod's fix http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=276280
There's a lot of content and inspiration that will allow you to come to a tier 3 or 4 fighter which has definitive flavor that you and other people would actually play.
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2013-09-14, 03:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2012
Re: Melee Specialist [3.5 Base Class]
Forgot about that feat, and I probably overestimated the ability along the way, though if there's already a feat that do it at will, why bother making a class feature that do it only a limited number of times per day?
The ability doesn't mention that. It just ''a creature with an unusual defense that would ordinarily make his attacks unable to land an attack or deal damage''. Cover is a form of defense, and so are pretty much everything I listed. Even if the defense had to originate from the target (which isn't the case by RAW), do the total cover originating from a tower shield count as such? In fact, one may even argue that AC counts as an unusual defense that would ordinarily make you unable to attack.
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2013-09-16, 03:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Melee Specialist [3.5 Base Class]
Finally thought of something to fix that second problem:
Improved Shatterpoint (Su)
At 17th level, while in shatterpoint a melee specialist wielding his chosen weapon may make an unmodified concentration check (ranks + con modifier) when attacking a creature with a special quality other than damage reduction (regeneration, swarm traits, incorporeal, etc.) that would negatively modify his attack with respect to hitting or dealing damage (the DM may adjudicate this ability to not be effective in rare cases such as the tarrasque). If the result of his check exceeds the targets CR + 11 he can attack and deal damage normally to the target. The result of this check lasts only for 1 round and only for the target the check was made for (thus he must make new checks in subsequent rounds or against new targets).There is no emotion more useless in life than hate.
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2013-09-16, 05:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Melee Specialist [3.5 Base Class]
That look good, actually. I do have one criticism though (which I should have told earlier, but somehow forgot to) : I don't think CR should be used mechanically*. If you could make the DC of the check equal to the target's HD (instead of CR +11), that would be perfect.
* Not that it hasn't been done in the past, but it's rarely done well or given any explanation. Improved Shatterpoint isn't as bad an offender as most, but it doesn't justify the use of CR. Unless there's already a feat that do that; I may be proved wrong again.
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2013-09-16, 05:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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2013-09-16, 06:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Melee Specialist [3.5 Base Class]
I have a suggestion.
Maybe the class could have a melee dice pool, similar to the monk's unarmed strike?
Just because I read it was tier 5, and I feel sorry for those classes.May the gods watch over your battles, friend.
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2013-09-16, 06:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Melee Specialist [3.5 Base Class]
The critique is mostly going to be a series of questions whose answers explain the main points where IMHO this class is found wanting;
Does it have multiple active abilities?
Active abilities, as in "abilities that provide different effects the player can choose to use in combat" make a class interesting to play. As with many "mundane" combat classes, this one doesn't. In combat what it does is basically standard attacks and full attacks with maybe one or two situational abilities. Think the class as a deck of cards in a game; with this one a player's game plan is "I'm spamming these two cards that deal direct damage and occasionally use this third card that makes it easier to do direct damage". And that's fairly boring in comparison to, say, Tome of Battle classes or Warlocks who have dozens of choices.
Does it have multiple build options?
Lots of build options a) make the class fun to build, b) allow it to better cover different character concepts and c) add replayability value because not every character with this class will have the same build or work the same. Again, think the class as a deck of cards; if the deck is chosen for you from the beginning and always has the same cards in the same order, any card game you play with it will become repetitive and boring. The fun of building your own deck and pitting it against different decks is taken out of the game with preset decks. Same with this class IMHO.
Does it offer something new and exciting?
So far, it doesn't really offer something that can't be done with, say, a fighter. Can't be disarmed? Use a locker or spiked gauntlet. Can't be sundered? Use riverine weapons, or hardened+magically treated adamantine weapons. Only the "ignore special defenses" ability is really unique. And it's only one ability.
In short, before balance comes into play you got to take into account whether the class is fun and exciting to play which, IMHO, it isn't much. As for balance, concentration check for a CR 20 would be 31. Ranks at level 20 will be 23 for a class skill, and ability bonus for an average constitution score (14+6 item) will be +5 for a total of 28. So he only fails the concentration check for his special ability on a 1 or 2. If he actually has a good constitution score to boost his HP, he will never fail the check at all.
So the check is largely irrelevant in most cases.
If all you have is a hammer, don't be lazy; be a blacksmith and start making more stuff.
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2013-09-16, 07:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Melee Specialist [3.5 Base Class]
-It's meant to be a more or less simple class (with no dead levels...). I always wanted to play simple but effective but never could find the right build and was always annoyed at how many books you'd have to go through to get it. I'm assuming there are a few others with this mentality and have built this class for them... and me. Also, I know spellcasters are powerful I just don't like playing them all that much.
-Again, simple is the operative word here. However, I do see a point here. I might make variants in the future or do something as repetition becomes boring eventually.
-Not really new and exciting so much as it allows a melee character to function almost entirely within the class features without needing other books. Extreme example: Fighting an incorporeal golem swarm with 100 natural armor in an antimagic field 3 miles wide (that curiously isn't causing the golem swarm to wink out)? No problem (assuming you can finish it off in a full attack action). More likely you are faced with fighting a swarm or something and don't want to have to rely on low damage from energy enhancements or needing another book to deal with them.
As for the CR thing, for the most part yes it should work except on a low roll but that assumes you come across the items to get your Con that high or you did other optimization. I'd argue that with optimization then you should just go warblade and not worry about it. If you're dealing with a CR +2 above yours you'll need a little more luck but not much. The point is that it should function almost always but has a chance to fail until much later or if it is highly optimized. I figure players using homebrew should come to a gentleman's agreement and I left a caveat for a DM if they have a truly unique reason for making it not work.
It's already dealing reasonable damage. It was only tier 5 because of being narrow I think.Last edited by gooddragon1; 2013-09-16 at 07:17 PM.
There is no emotion more useless in life than hate.