The Truest of the True: A Handbook to non-Kobold Dragons (WIP)

[Gavinfoxx]

You should mention Scintillating Scales...

[WhamBamSam]

You should mention Scintillating Scales...

Good point. I added it in to the section on Dragon Encounters, and should really get around to write a sub-section on good spells for dragons at some point. I should also maybe tune up some of the encounters.

Scintillating Scales is a bit underwhelming for dragon PCs, as they don't have that high of a natural armor bonus, but I agree most NPC dragons should have it up when the fight starts if possible.

The current update is essentially done to my satisfaction. I may still add the Spinewyrm (Dungeon Magazine 118), but I'd like to get a general opinion from the board as to how official a source it is. It seems to bear most of the same markings as Dragon Magazine, but Dungeon Magazines never seem to come up in discussions on these boards. Any thoughts from the playground?

[Coidzor]

Good point. I added it in to the section on Dragon Encounters, and should really get around to write a sub-section on good spells for dragons at some point. I should also maybe tune up some of the encounters.

Scintillating Scales is a bit underwhelming for dragon PCs, as they don't have that high of a natural armor bonus, but I agree most NPC dragons should have it up when the fight starts if possible.

The current update is essentially done to my satisfaction. I may still add the Spinewyrm (Dungeon Magazine 118), but I'd like to get a general opinion from the board as to how official a source it is. It seems to bear most of the same markings as Dragon Magazine, but Dungeon Magazines never seem to come up in discussions on these boards. Any thoughts from the playground?

I think it's mostly just that Dungeon content that isn't adventures is rarer and so people forget about it more than that it's considered less legit than Dragon. They always seem to be considered about the same when Dungeon *is* mentioned, at least.

[Gemini476]

I think it's mostly just that Dungeon content that isn't adventures is rarer and so people forget about it more than that it's considered less legit than Dragon. They always seem to be considered about the same when Dungeon *is* mentioned, at least.

Also, Dragon is aimed towards players whilst Dungeon is aimed towards DMs. Guess which one is more common?
Or, more accurately, DMs looking for pre-built adventures to run. It's a niche of a niche.

Dungeon also has less content that's relevant to building characters, which leads directly into it not being mentioned often. If an issue of Dungeon is mentioned, it's more likely to be because of a decent adventure than because of a cool/broken feat/spell/race/template/magical item/class/prestige class. Think Savage Tides rather than Implore, Knowstones, or Dragon Psychosis, for instance.
Although it does have monsters. It's just that so does Dragon, and most of the mechanical contents relevant to the adventures in Dungeon are pushed into Dragon to save space for more adventure.

[WhamBamSam]

I think it's mostly just that Dungeon content that isn't adventures is rarer and so people forget about it more than that it's considered less legit than Dragon. They always seem to be considered about the same when Dungeon *is* mentioned, at least.

Also, Dragon is aimed towards players whilst Dungeon is aimed towards DMs. Guess which one is more common?
Or, more accurately, DMs looking for pre-built adventures to run. It's a niche of a niche.

Dungeon also has less content that's relevant to building characters, which leads directly into it not being mentioned often. If an issue of Dungeon is mentioned, it's more likely to be because of a decent adventure than because of a cool/broken feat/spell/race/template/magical item/class/prestige class. Think Savage Tides rather than Implore, Knowstones, or Dragon Psychosis, for instance.
Although it does have monsters. It's just that so does Dragon, and most of the mechanical contents relevant to the adventures in Dungeon are pushed into Dragon to save space for more adventure.

That makes sense. Okay then, I'll reread the Spinewyrm and write an opinion on it.

I should also say something somewhere about the ability of True Dragons to trade out a Sorcerer spell slot and spell known for a Draconic Aura with bonus equal to the spell level. It's pretty bad most of the time, but for dragons aiming for a Divine Conversion PrC or NPC dragons intending to play Xorvintaal, it's a decent option.

I feel a little guilty about not making a pretty table for the big list o' dragons to organize and present all the information better, but maybe I'll do that next update.

[danielxcutter]

I just want to note that Druid spells can synergize better with dragons than some default options, such as Lion’s Charge or Greater Magic Fang. Works best with NPCs, but yeah.

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Raise thread! [wiggles fingers]

[DragonIceAdept]

Thoughts on the variant dragon abilities in Dragon Magic (page 125 to 130)? The variant frightful presences look cool, and Necrotic Presence could be amazing on a necromancer. But I especially like comprehend languages over speak with animals on a Bronze dragon. Copper dragon immunity to poison is probably better than immunity to acid, and the flavor of a scorpion tail is superb.

[Thurbane]

Well, now that this is re-opened, I'd like to shamelessly plug my thread about the true dragon types that aren't represented as having half-dragon varieties in RoTD: List of Half-Dragons

Spoiler

Show

So, if I'm not mistaken, RoTD (p.69) contains the "definitive" list of half-dragons.

But a few true-dragon types are missing (still technically 1st party though):

...so, how would you stat these up as half-dragons?

• Ectoplasmic Dragon (online): Burst of whitefire (?) / Immunity to dismiss ectoplasm (?) / Chaotic neutral
• Incarnum (MoI p.172): Cone of resonating energy (?) / None (?) / LG, LE, CG or CE (player's choice)
• Mercury (DoF p.138): Line of light (?) / Immunity to blinding or dazzling (?) / Chaotic good
• Mist (DoF p.142): Cone of steam / None (?) / Neutral
• Obsidian Dragon (online): Cone of fire / Immunity to fire / Neutral Evil
• Orange (Dragon Compendium p.195): Line of explosive saliva (?) / Water breathing / Neutral evil
• Purple (Dragon Compendium p.197): Cone of searing energy (?) / None (?) / Lawful evil
• Rattelyr (Shining South): Cone of fire / Immunity to fire / Lawful evil
• Steel (DoF p.140): Cone of corrosive (acid) gas / +10 racial bonus on saves vs. poison / Lawful neutral
• Yellow (Dragon Compendium p.199): Cone of salt / Water breathing / Chaotic evil

...then there is those from the magazines...

Dragon/Dungeon Magazine:

• Adamantine (Dragon 321 p.44): Line of fire / Immunity to fire / Neutral Good
• Arboreal (Dragon 321 p.46): Cone of thorns / Immunity to acid or sonic (player's choice)/ Chaotic good
• Astral (Dragon 344 p.27): Line of scouring dust/ None (?) / Neutral
• Axial (Dragon 321 p.48): Cone of force / Immunity to acid or fire (player's choice) / Lawful neutral
• Beast (Dragon 321 p.50): Cone of cold and electricity (?) / Immunity to cold or electricity (player's choice)/ NG or CG (player's choice)
• Brainstealer (Dragon 337 p.25): None (?) / Immunity to acid / Lawful evil
• Chole (Dragon 344, p.29): Cone of poisonous 'insanity' vapors (?)/ None (?) / Chaotic evil
• Chromium (Dragon 356 p.23): Line of solid ice / Immunity to cold / Lawful evil
• Concordant (Dragon 321 p.52): Line of 'antithetical' energy/ Immune to poison (?) / Neutral
• Cobalt (Dragon 356 p.25): Line of magnetic energy / Immunity to electricity / Lawful evil
• Crested Sea Serpent (Dragon 345 p.56): Line of sonic / Amphibious / Neutral evil
• Dzalmus (Dragon 349 p.62): Cone of life-draining gas (?) / Immunity to enchantment (?) / Chaotic evil
• Elysian (Dragon 344 p.32): Line of sonic energy / Immunity to sonic / Neutral good
• Gloom (Dragon 344 p.35): Cone of apathy gas (?) / None (?) / Neutral evil
• Greyhawk (Dragon 339 p .51): Line of acid or cone of poisonous gas (?) / poison resistance (?) / Lawful neutral
• Hex (Dragon 343 p.39): Line of putrid / Immunity to disease or poison (?) / Neutral evil
• Iron (Dragon 356 p.29): Line of sparks / Immunity to fire / Lawful neutral
• Lantern Sea Serpent (Dragon 345 p.58): Line of red lightning / Amphibious / Lawful evil
• Nickel (Dragon 356 p.31): Line of corrosive gas / Immunity to acid / Lawful evil
• Spiked Sea Serpent (Dragon 345 p.61): None / Amphibious / Chaotic evil
• Spinewyrm (Dungeon 110/Polyhedron 169 p.95): None / None / Neutral evil
• Time (Dragon 359 p.37): Line or cone of 'time' (?) / Immunity to slow (?) / Neutral
• Tome (Dragon 343 p.42): Bead of raw elemental material (?) / None (?) / Lawful neutral
• Tungsten (Dragon 356 p.33): Line of blasting sand / Immunity to fire / Lawful good

Also, any other "true dragons" that I've missed from official sources?

Cheers - T

[Peelee]

Well, now that this is re-opened, I'd like to shamelessly plug my thread about the true dragon types that aren't represented as having half-dragon varieties in RoTD: List of Half-Dragons

Apropos of absolutely nothing, but the one of the 501st Australian garrisons is named Terror Australis, and thanks to your location tag, I finally got the joke.

[DragonIceAdept]

Well, now that this is re-opened, I'd like to shamelessly plug my thread about the true dragon types that aren't represented as having half-dragon varieties in RoTD: List of Half-Dragons

Nice. I still wish we had a DungeonDex similar to the DragonDex; I bet there are new dragon types somewhere in Dungeon.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Nice. I still wish we had a DungeonDex similar to the DragonDex; I bet there are new dragon types somewhere in Dungeon.

Why does it look so much like Pokémon...

[WhamBamSam]

Thoughts on the variant dragon abilities in Dragon Magic (page 125 to 130)? The variant frightful presences look cool, and Necrotic Presence could be amazing on a necromancer. But I especially like comprehend languages over speak with animals on a Bronze dragon. Copper dragon immunity to poison is probably better than immunity to acid, and the flavor of a scorpion tail is superb.

Those are pretty neat. The damaging variant presences don't do much (for a Wyrmling, it's literally 0 even if they have a Frightful Presence at that age) unless the dragon has something that procs off of little pings somehow, but others are probably a more reliable debuffs than Frightful Presence in terms of getting around immunities, and as you say, unlimited out of combat healing for pet undead on Necrotic Presence.

The variant abilities are neat. Generally I'd say they're upgrades over the standard options. In addition to flavor, the sting attack qualifies the Copper Dragon for Barbed Stinger, which is potentially interesting when they get big enough for their grapple to be meaningful. The Gold's Bonus Domains probably work even with the trading away of domains for a Sovereign Archetype, and Air, with Wind Wall at 2nd, is a good one for boss monsters. I really like the debuff rider on the White Dragon's breath weapon too, even with the 1/day limit.

[DragonIceAdept]

Those are pretty neat. The damaging variant presences don't do much (for a Wyrmling, it's literally 0 even if they have a Frightful Presence at that age) unless the dragon has something that procs off of little pings somehow, but others are probably a more reliable debuffs than Frightful Presence in terms of getting around immunities, and as you say, unlimited out of combat healing for pet undead on Necrotic Presence.

The variant abilities are neat. Generally I'd say they're upgrades over the standard options. In addition to flavor, the sting attack qualifies the Copper Dragon for Barbed Stinger, which is potentially interesting when they get big enough for their grapple to be meaningful. The Gold's Bonus Domains probably work even with the trading away of domains for a Sovereign Archetype, and Air, with Wind Wall at 2nd, is a good one for boss monsters. I really like the debuff rider on the White Dragon's breath weapon too, even with the 1/day limit.

What do you think is the best variant presence? I really adore Awesome Presence, though it'd be hard to get on a PC. Corrupting is pretty neat.

[ThanatosZero]

I wish to express how Dragon HD become benefitial, once you have both access to martial arcanist from Abjurant Champion and the ability to cast 9th level spells.

When a Loredrake Dragon ages up to a great wyrm, you gain many HD, which also increase your BAB by the same amount.

A Great Steel Wyrm has 37 HD (Dragons of Faerun pdf) without any class levels. With Martial Arcanist you get a whopping increase of +33 Caster levels when you age up a Steel Wyrmling.

A Loredrake Steel Wyrmling 4/Sorcerer 2/Dragonslayer 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1/Knight Phantom 7
will have 19 BAB, 18/20 Sorcerer Spellcasting.

Once they age up via curse to a great wyrm, they will have 52 BAB, CL 52 and 20/20 Sorcerer Spellcasting.

[WhamBamSam]

What do you think is the best variant presence? I really adore Awesome Presence, though it'd be hard to get on a PC. Corrupting is pretty neat.

On a PC, almost all of them require that the creature in question have fewer HD than you, which means we're talking about stuff that's around a CR of ECL-5, and hence not terribly consequential except in a horde of mooks. Against said horde of mooks, or if you're cheesing HD with age curses or Inspire Greatness or something, probably Celestial Presence, since it actually functions at Wyrmling age (doing a full point of damage per age category) and causes no-save blindness, or Corrupting Presence to get basically the same thing as Frightful Presence but get around fear immunity.

For an NPC, Celestial Presence is probably the best for good-aligned dragons, since again, no-save blindness, followed by Awesome Presence if the dragon targets will saves at all. The elemental ones could be interesting on a non-good dragon if it has some sort of effect that triggers on a ping.

I wish to express how Dragon HD become benefitial, once you have both access to martial arcanist from Abjurant Champion and the ability to cast 9th level spells.

When a Loredrake Dragon ages up to a great wyrm, you gain many HD, which also increase your BAB by the same amount.

A Great Steel Wyrm has 37 HD (Dragons of Faerun pdf) without any class levels. With Martial Arcanist you get a whopping increase of +33 Caster levels when you age up a Steel Wyrmling.

A Loredrake Steel Wyrmling 4/Sorcerer 2/Dragonslayer 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1/Knight Phantom 7
will have 19 BAB, 18/20 Sorcerer Spellcasting.

Once they age up via curse to a great wyrm, they will have 52 BAB, CL 52 and 20/20 Sorcerer Spellcasting.

The handbook operates under the assumption that only one age category increase is possible via Bestow Curse under the "multiple instances of the same effect" rules. But, the narrower point that a gishy dragon who curses up their age would see the full +3 to CL from Martial Arcanist.

[DragonIceAdept]

On a PC, almost all of them require that the creature in question have fewer HD than you, which means we're talking about stuff that's around a CR of ECL-5, and hence not terribly consequential except in a horde of mooks. Against said horde of mooks, or if you're cheesing HD with age curses or Inspire Greatness or something, probably Celestial Presence, since it actually functions at Wyrmling age (doing a full point of damage per age category) and causes no-save blindness, or Corrupting Presence to get basically the same thing as Frightful Presence but get around fear immunity.

For an NPC, Celestial Presence is probably the best for good-aligned dragons, since again, no-save blindness, followed by Awesome Presence if the dragon targets will saves at all. The elemental ones could be interesting on a non-good dragon if it has some sort of effect that triggers on a ping.

The handbook operates under the assumption that only one age category increase is possible via Bestow Curse under the "multiple instances of the same effect" rules. But, the narrower point that a gishy dragon who curses up their age would see the full +3 to CL from Martial Arcanist.

Oh man, I missed Celestial Presence's no-save blindness. That is incredible, I love it.

EDIT: Doesn't the paragraph say they get a save to negate blindness? Or am I reading it wrong?

[WhamBamSam]

Oh man, I missed Celestial Presence's no-save blindness. That is incredible, I love it.

EDIT: Doesn't the paragraph say they get a save to negate blindness? Or am I reading it wrong?

Oh, so it does. It's in a different place from the text about the saves in the other damaging ones, so I missed it.

[DragonIceAdept]

Oh, so it does. It's in a different place from the text about the saves in the other damaging ones, so I missed it.

Are you planning on adding a section to the guide on the dragon variant abilities and variant auras? It'd be neat to see how you'd rate them.

[Gransoley]

Were the Chromatic and Metallic dragon savage progression deliberately not included or did i miss them all together? Iirc with the SS web enhancement u can multiclass between levels so they shouldn't be horrible even though they are only for basic dragons.
Besides that the guide's quite nice, kudos.

[Reshy]

Are you planning on adding a section to the guide on the dragon variant abilities and variant auras? It'd be neat to see how you'd rate them.

I think that'd be worth doing, it'd make the guide a bit more feature complete as it's still marked as a WIP after so much time.

(P.S. Your inbox is full Sam)