General WoD Discussion #3 Third time's the charm - No wait, that sounds too Exalted

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So I was reading up on BrightHammer 40K recently and was wondering if anyone had done or thought of something similar with WoD? Basically "flipping" the darkness of WoD around and creating a World of Light*. For example, the Inferno book would instead be called Empyrean and would be about angels. The concept of Inferno and demons would be a sidebar on a page in one of the later chapters. As another example, The Book of Spirits splatbook is filled to the brim with not-so-great spirits and even the spirits that aren't inherently bad still screw you over in some way. In the World of Light this would be reversed. The spirit of fear becomes a spirit of courage, the spirit of greed becomes a spirit of Charity etc. You guys see where I'm going with this? It's probably unlikely that people have built mechanics for this but I kind of wonder what the world would be like...?

*Except for Prometheans. They stay exactly the same.

[WitchSlayer]

My ST actually did make a World of Light an alternate universe, some games have ended with characters going to the World of Light.

[comicshorse]

So I was reading up on BrightHammer 40K recently and was wondering if anyone had done or thought of something similar with WoD? Basically "flipping" the darkness of WoD around and creating a World of Light*. For example, the Inferno book would instead be called Empyrean and would be about angels. The concept of Inferno and demons would be a sidebar on a page in one of the later chapters. As another example, The Book of Spirits splatbook is filled to the brim with not-so-great spirits and even the spirits that aren't inherently bad still screw you over in some way. In the World of Light this would be reversed. The spirit of fear becomes a spirit of courage, the spirit of greed becomes a spirit of Charity etc. You guys see where I'm going with this? It's probably unlikely that people have built mechanics for this but I kind of wonder what the world would be like...?

*Except for Prometheans. They stay exactly the same.

I've just got a horrible feeling WoL Vampires would be all Twilight-y

Now Changeling, having accepted the invitation of the gentle and benevolent Keepers to enter Arcadia and learned the ways of magic and wisdom you have returned to the drab mundane world to bring magic to its inhabitants and enrich their lives
(Though thinking about it this may be how some Loyalists view the situation anyway)

My ST actually did make a World of Light an alternate universe, some games have ended with characters going to the World of Light.

Don't go into the light

[Sir_Mopalot]

Now Changeling, having accepted the invitation of the gentle and benevolent Keepers to enter Arcadia and learned the ways of magic and wisdom you have returned to the drab mundane world to bring magic to its inhabitants and enrich their lives

So.... Princess: The Hopeful?

[Selrahc]

World of Light: All of the comforting lies that people tell themselves are true. The world isn't arbitrary, people will band together and work for a better tomorrow, hard work and perseverance will be enough to do anything, justice is blind, bad things only happen for a reason, wanting something enough will make it happen, the people we look up to aren't prone to having embarrassing or harrowing personal lives....

A completely alien place.

[MugaSofer]

Mortals are about discovering the magical world all around us, just out of sight.

Vampires would be bringing the Blessing to a chosen few; but they have to maintain the masquerade lest foolish, mundane humanity turn against them. Mary Sues. Obvious counterpart: Twilight.

Werewolf would be guarding the fragile ecosystem of the Spirit World from mundane intrusion. Preachy and holier-than thou; always right. Obvious counterpart: oWerewolf.

Mages would get their power from Not!Hell. The Seers serve Demon Princes. The Abyss becomes a Wall defending reality from intrusion; by using your powers, you risk weakening the Wall, which could lead to Bad Things. Edgy "anti-heroes". Obvious counterpart: all those dumb 90's antiheroes.

Changelings, as has been mentioned, returned from bounteous Arcadi to spread joy and magic in our dull world. Obvious counterpart: oChangeling.

Prometheans combine alchemical science with mortal humanity; they're about perfecting and improving oneself into Limit Breaking. Y'know, like alchemy. Obvious counterpart: transhumanism.

Geists had a NDE so now they help out Heaven with death-related services on Earth. Collecting lost souls, helping people returning for one last goodbye, and helping release people from their pain, as it were. Obvious counterpart: angels. This may be a it close to playedstraight!Geist, I'm not that familiar with it.

Mummies are about incredibly ancient beings, filled with the summed wisdom of their society, returning to teach us their lessons. Maybe, I dunno, Doctor Who-esque stuff? I'm not familiar with Mummy either.

Demons rebelled against the not!Devil, instead of not!God. Or maybe they work for a benevolent God-Machine as elite agents (elite because they have free will and personalities.) I'm having trouble avoiding overlap with stuff I already used.

For bonus points, introduce this to a regular WoD game, and they're all subtly, monstrously evil; they only sound good. For example, Mummies' ancient wisdom is all about learning your place: ground beneath the heel of the Gods. Death is, y'know, bad (this is easy to swing, albeit strangely unusual) and so are Geists. Demons are, essentially, the Angels of the God-Machine. Vampires don't really care about mere human lives. Also, they have good, but evil-sounding equivalents of the PCs enemies (Seers of the Throne = the Church? Plenty of good and bad vibes to nick).

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More stuff:

Instead of The Beast vampires would all have The Man (I'm open to a new name) inside of them. This is an innate force of civility and reason in every vampire. So for example, two vampires meeting each other for the first time must struggle against feeling peaceful and calm towards the other vampire

Belials Brood (who need a new name) would be a pacifistic group of angel-worshippers all about embracing The Man. They preform acts of profound moral and physical peace in order to obtain a communion with The Man and empower it.

In Mage, the oracles would be the ones obviously in the Supernal and the Exarchs would be the ones who have seemingly disappeared. I'm unsure on how to handle the Abyss. I do know that it's "intrusions" would manifest in ways that are the opposite of terrifying and entropic.

In Werewolf, the positions of the Forsaken and the Pure would be reversed. There would be immensely powerful beings of Virtue from the Empyrean that are the WoL counterparts to the Maeljinn. Wounds would not exist. In there place would be areas in the Shadow that are created by extreme ...um good behaviour? Pleasantry? Whatever the antonym for atrocity is.

This is fun!

EDIT: Created a thread over in the general discussion section of the WoD forums.

[SiuiS]

GMC and MERITS.


Familiars. Familiars, by the book, are limited to rank 1. This means that a fmiliR is now no longer capable of holding a conversation?

Ghost familiar. You get a thinking, talking ghost. Except a rank 1 ghost isn't thinking and talking. It's the "play a scene over and over" kind of ghost.

I'm thinking the requisite familiar merits would then have to grant a familiar an artificial, honorary rank just for that, with a note on still bein limited in scope to the mechanics of Rank 1, else wise. Alternately, the Potent Familiar merit, instead of giving arbitrary XP converted through somearcaneprocess to a fair amount, lets the familiar gain rank and be rank 2 at start, possibly with a note that just like his own power stat, the mage can spend merit dots or XP to boost the supernatural tolerance stat of the familiar. Basically a merit that turns a mechanical advantage/living equipment into an actual cohort and side kick. The difference between Allies and True Friend.

So the familiar merit grants you a familiar, makes you an Anchor/Resonant, and lets you spend XP on the familiar's attributes and numen. Adding potent familiar raises the cap and allows you to spend XP in the familiar's Rank and Influence as well.


Alternately alternately, spend those three dots on True Friend and get a spirit.

[MugaSofer]

Familiars. Familiars, by the book, are limited to rank 1. This means that a fmiliR is now no longer capable of holding a conversation?

Well, if it's a ghost. According to some pre-GMC RAW, yeah.

Ghost familiar. You get a thinking, talking ghost. Except a rank 1 ghost isn't thinking and talking. It's the "play a scene over and over" kind of ghost.

I'm thinking the requisite familiar merits would then have to grant a familiar an artificial, honorary rank just for that, with a note on still bein limited in scope to the mechanics of Rank 1, else wise.

I don't think that needs a whole rank. Just a note that the "Rank 1 ghosts aren't sentient" doesn't apply to Familiars.

Although that's kinda a dumb rule anyway. Rank-1 entities are about human average, dicewise, so I don't know why ghost ones were excluded.

Alternately, the Potent Familiar merit, instead of giving arbitrary XP converted through somearcaneprocess to a fair amount, lets the familiar gain rank and be rank 2 at start, possibly with a note that just like his own power stat, the mage can spend merit dots or XP to boost the supernatural tolerance stat of the familiar. Basically a merit that turns a mechanical advantage/living equipment into an actual cohort and side kick. The difference between Allies and True Friend.

... how would that work? Different ranks have mutually exclusive Attribute scores, Numina counts; and they hit Godlike at only supernatural tolerance 5.

So the familiar merit grants you a familiar, makes you an Anchor/Resonant, and lets you spend XP on the familiar's attributes and numen. Adding potent familiar raises the cap and allows you to spend XP in the familiar's Rank and Influence as well.

I like this solution.

Isn't it ... the same as pre-GMC?

Alternately alternately, spend those three dots on True Friend and get a spirit.

... a spirit that can't have any mechanical effect, right?

(If you want a high-Rank "familiar" I'd suggest Mentor, for the record.)

[Yuki Akuma]

Rank 1 ghosts aren't sapient because ghosts aren't people. Even high rank ghosts aren't fully sapient like you'd expect a human to be - even the most powerful ghosts get stuck in rote behaviours and reliving their life and/or death, and have faulty memories.

[SiuiS]

Although that's kinda a dumb rule anyway. Rank-1 entities are about human average, dicewise, so I don't know why ghost ones were excluded.

No they're not. Rank 1 spirits are specifically animal-intelligence at best, and rank 1 ghosts are slide shows. There's no basis for them being human-average except "their attributes have the same max as a human".

... how would that work? Different ranks have mutually exclusive Attribute scores, Numina counts; and they hit Godlike at only supernatural tolerance 5.

Where are you getting mutually exclusive? That doesn't make sense; you get 1-4 numen per rank. Rank 1 and 2 could have the same numen count, and you divide total dots between attributes; there's no minimum.

You also missed "lets you get to level 2", and seem to have read "removes cap entirely" instead. That's ludicrous, I agree.

I like this solution.

Isn't it ... the same as pre-GMC?

No. Pre-GMC, they couldn't gain rank, for one thing.

... a spirit that can't have any mechanical effect, right?

(If you want a high-Rank "familiar" I'd suggest Mentor, for the record.)

Why no mechanical effect? That's silly. A true friend human, vampire, werewolf or changeling could be fine, but a spirit isn't? It would have the same effect as any other NPC that really likes you and has powers. Familiar gets you the benefit of mana/essence conversion and sympathy, which you don't get with true friend. It does say the merit covers mentor, allies, contacts and retainer all in one, after all.

[Leliel]

No they're not. Rank 1 spirits are specifically animal-intelligence at best, and rank 1 ghosts are slide shows. There's no basis for them being human-average except "their attributes have the same max as a human".

Actually, bolded part's wrong. They're quite capable of holding a conversation in the First Tongue according to Werewolf, they're just not particularly deep thinkers.

Also, Mage has rules for Ghost Familiars in Summoners, and its specifically stated that they become more independent and intelligent as a result of binding-more like the people they were when alive and quite capable of independent thought (one of them even has decided he should have moved on a long time ago, but can't because of the bond).

[MugaSofer]

Rank 1 ghosts aren't sapient because ghosts aren't people. Even high rank ghosts aren't fully sapient like you'd expect a human to be - even the most powerful ghosts get stuck in rote behaviours and reliving their life and/or death, and have faulty memories.

Suddenly I am enlightened.

No they're not. Rank 1 spirits are specifically animal-intelligence at best, and rank 1 ghosts are slide shows. There's no basis for them being human-average except "their attributes have the same max as a human".

"Animalistic" does not equal "animal-level intelligence at best".

However, I was in any case referring strictly to their attributes - they have around the same Attribute spread as a human, which is useful for grokking how difficult a challenge they'll pose in various situations.

Where are you getting mutually exclusive? That doesn't make sense; you get 1-4 numen per rank. Rank 1 and 2 could have the same numen count, and you divide total dots between attributes; there's no minimum.

If you purchased Ranks separately, either you would have to change the caps, or they would have to give you Attribute and Numina increases. I'm pretty sure. I'll have to recheck my copy of GMC, but I recall noticing that they don't overlap.

You also missed "lets you get to level 2", and seem to have read "removes cap entirely" instead. That's ludicrous, I agree.

Ah, I didn't realise you intended to allow players to only purchase a single Rank. Of course, allowing them to buy Imperial-level Familiars would be insane, but I inferred you would simply not address the issue / cap at five, like the rules do.

Actually, how do Spirits increase in Rank? I know it's supposed to be a result of devouring other Spirits, but it doesn't happen every time they do, right?

Why no mechanical effect? That's silly. A true friend human, vampire, werewolf or changeling could be fine, but a spirit isn't?

A Familiar could be covered under True Friend, yes, but you would still need the Familiar Merit. Are you perhaps thinking of the "Guardian Angel" Merit?

Mage has rules for Ghost Familiars in Summoners, and its specifically stated that they become more independent and intelligent as a result of binding-more like the people they were when alive and quite capable of independent thought (one of them even has decided he should have moved on a long time ago, but can't because of the bond).

I guess maybe we weren't giving them enough credit, huh? This seems like it works fine.

[SiuiS]

Actually, bolded part's wrong. They're quite capable of holding a conversation in the First Tongue according to Werewolf, they're just not particularly deep thinkers.

Also, Mage has rules for Ghost Familiars in Summoners, and its specifically stated that they become more independent and intelligent as a result of binding-more like the people they were when alive and quite capable of independent thought (one of them even has decided he should have moved on a long time ago, but can't because of the bond).

GMC specifically over-rules this, though, and straight says that rank 1 spirits are barely able to hold conversation. I think they are making rank 1 spirits more like motes.

I may be misremembering now though, it's been a bit of time.

"Animalistic" does not equal "animal-level intelligence at best".

I know. I think it actually calls out lack of conversing as a thing, though.

If you purchased Ranks separately, either you would have to change the caps, or they would have to give you Attribute and Numina increases. I'm pretty sure. I'll have to recheck my copy of GMC, but I recall noticing that they don't overlap.

1-3 numen per rank, and attributes overlap a very little bit between rank 1 and 2. You're right though, on inspection there is a bigger difference than I initially accounted for.

Ah, I didn't realise you intended to allow players to only purchase a single Rank. Of course, allowing them to buy Imperial-level Familiars would be insane, but I inferred you would simply not address the issue / cap at five, like the rules do.

Heh. In nWoD, you could spend all your merit dots and starting XP on the potent familiar merit, getting a tiny godling anyway.

Actually, how do Spirits increase in Rank? I know it's supposed to be a result of devouring other Spirits, but it doesn't happen every time they do, right?

Mechanically, I don't know. I would borrow the locus rules wholesale, myself.

A Familiar could be covered under True Friend, yes, but you would still need the Familiar Merit. Are you perhaps thinking of the "Guardian Angel" Merit?

Would it be required?

GMC changed Hollow/Sanctum/Etc. to "safe Place", and allows for special rules for individual splats. All splats now use the same merit for their hideaway; Safe Place is beefed up Security/Wards/Spirit Guard/Bound Ghost, size is based on resources (or presumably the appropriate social merit, just like any other object one gets from resources). The Mystery Cult merit functions pretty identically to end-game status in a mage order, and could also be used to achieve Entitlements and Legacies.

It stands to reason that "Familiar Bond" would allow a mage to buy the True Friend merit with a familiar, rather than a human.

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I guess maybe we weren't giving them enough credit, huh? This seems like it works fine.[/QUOTE]

My concern is with the idea that the GMC rules changes take precedence, meaning that a lot of the old rules no longer account for the new baseline assumptions.

[MugaSofer]

Heh. In nWoD, you could spend all your merit dots and starting XP on the potent familiar merit, getting a tiny godling anyway.

That sounds cool, I'll have to check the mechanics on that.

GMC changed Hollow/Sanctum/Etc. to "safe Place", and allows for special rules for individual splats. All splats now use the same merit for their hideaway; Safe Place is beefed up Security/Wards/Spirit Guard/Bound Ghost, size is based on resources (or presumably the appropriate social merit, just like any other object one gets from resources). The Mystery Cult merit functions pretty identically to end-game status in a mage order, and could also be used to achieve Entitlements and Legacies.

It stands to reason that "Familiar Bond" would allow a mage to buy the True Friend merit with a familiar, rather than a human.

Not really, unless "Familiar Bond" is the name of a separate Merit to "Familiar", which I haven't heard about.

True Friend means this character won't die and won't betray you. That's it. You want them to help you? Get your self Allies, maybe, or Retainer.

I can actually see Spirit Ally or something as a separate Merit to Familiar Bond, though, because hey, what if I want a Spirit that helps me for some other reason?

Or, alternately, it could simply be True Friend with a note that if you want them to do anything, here are the XP costs for Familiar abilities. And ... something about being able to feed them Essence through the bond? I'm pretty sure that's a thing.

[SiuiS]

Not really, unless "Familiar Bond" is the name of a separate Merit to "Familiar", which I haven't heard about.

Familiar bond is the Spirit Arcanum spell which is required to get a familiar. Casting the "get a familiar" spell requires you to spend the XP to also buy the Familiar merit.

True Friend means this character won't die and won't betray you. That's it. You want them to help you? Get your self Allies, maybe, or Retainer.

then why is Allies one of the listed rolled-in merits of True Friend?

[MugaSofer]

Familiar bond is the Spirit Arcanum spell which is required to get a familiar. Casting the "get a familiar" spell requires you to spend the XP to also buy the Familiar merit.

Ah, thanks. I assumed it referred to the magical bond between you and your familiar. I think my point stands, though.

why is Allies one of the listed rolled-in merits of True Friend?

It isn't.

It is mentioned as one of the Merits you could use for any mechanical benefits your True Friend might also be providing. True Friend does not give you those Merits for free, unless I'm misreading my inexplicably-impossible-to-copy-and-paste-from PDF.

[Theorac]

Hi, guys. I've not seen an auto crossbow yet, so what is a good firearm to get in VtM 20th ED? My melee character got owned, so Im checking out a ranged combat character for a change. Additionally, should I bother with suppressors?

[Gauntlet]

Hi, guys. I've not seen an auto crossbow yet, so what is a good firearm to get in VtM 20th ED? My melee character got owned, so Im checking out a ranged combat character for a change. Additionally, should I bother with suppressors?

You don't have to be a combatant, you know- a lot of VtM characters rely on Presence or Dominate to make fights end before they happen, or just avoid them altogether. However, if you do want to blow people up, you have a couple options:

Pistols: Don't do much to vampires, but pretty good against humans/mages/etc and you can get a license for them if you're in the US (people tend to look at you a whole lot more funny if you're walking around with a crossbow)

Shotgun: Not very legal, but it'll make basically anyone think twice about going for you. Works best with Potence (no recoil for me) and Obfuscate (again with the legality thing). Dragonsbreath rounds if you want to get real dangerous.

Crossbow: Traditional one. Not easy to reload and you need to be good at it. Particularly useful if you have Thaumaturgy or some other way of blessing your quarrels. Also you get looked at funny in the street.

Thaumaturgy: Being a wizard is ranged combat, right? Being a Tremere shoehorns your character concept a bit though, so I'd think carefully about it and don't just do it because you want to be ranged.

Flare Gun: Personal favorite if you're vampire hunting. I'd recommend having a high courage. They only fire one shot and aren't easy to hit with, but a flaming ball of magnesium will wreck a lot of people's days.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Yeah basically if you want to ruin a lowbie Vampire's day cheaply and hilariously, use a flaregun. Just make sure you and anyone on your side can make the Rotshrek check yourself.

(Lowbie as in inexperienced, not low-gen, obviously. What genius decided that going down a number should be a good thing?)

[Turalisj]

Anyone else have the idea for an SCP-Foundation based NWoD game? The PC's are all Hunters, with the various SCPs being different supernaturals, the supernatural's enemies, and the various items throughout the splats.

It just occurred to me that Mummy Relics fit the bill very well, with the blessing/curse dual nature that they have.

[Theorac]

Based on your input, it would seem that Brujah has a good mix of powers? We are starting to go against Vampires, plus the occasional werewolf and firearm users.

[The Glyphstone]

For a facemelter combat wombat, Brujah is one of the best options, yes. Potence and Celerity in-clan, and Presence as the odd-man out for when you don't actually want to melt faces. Just watch your temper, because if you frenzy, those combat powers can end up being a problem. Beating a guy bloody, or even beating/stabbing him to death, is a lot less Masquerade-breaching than gorily tearing him limb from limb with your bare hands, which a sufficiently Potent Brujah in uncontrolled frenzy could easily do to a mortal.

[Mephisto]

Anyone else have the idea for an SCP-Foundation based NWoD game? The PC's are all Hunters, with the various SCPs being different supernaturals, the supernatural's enemies, and the various items throughout the splats.

It just occurred to me that Mummy Relics fit the bill very well, with the blessing/curse dual nature that they have.

The Foundation is pretty much Cherion Group with slightly better intentions.

[The Glyphstone]

The Foundation is pretty much Cherion Group with slightly better intentions.

I'd say more like part Aegis Kai Doru and part Cheiron Group...the way AKD uses relics matches up with Safe-grade SCPs better than the thaumatechnological grafts that Cheiron implants into its field agents (The Foundation has D-class for their experiments, they don't experiment on agents in most cases), but the CG's 'research for research's sake' is closer to the Foundation than AKD's more outwardly benevolent goals.

If I had to choose between the two, I'd use Aegis Kai over Cheiron, because of the mechanical synergy between Relics and SCPs, and rewrite their fluff to focus on containment over using supernatural artifacts against the supernatural evils.

[Sith_Happens]

(Lowbie as in inexperienced, not low-gen, obviously. What genius decided that going down a number should be a good thing?)

Gary Gygax.

[Theorac]

What are some 'safe' flaws to take? Never bothered to take any before this since I wasn't sure which ones the Storyteller can use to screw over my team as well.

I'm a Brujah this time. Sneaking around, hacking, guns, convincing people these are not the droids they are looking for are the main focus of my character.

[Lady Serpentine]

Safest is probably Dwarf - it can be an advantage in some situations, rather than just a straight drawback, depending on your game.

Other than that... Depends. What're you looking at doing with the character?

[SiuiS]

What are some 'safe' flaws to take? Never bothered to take any before this since I wasn't sure which ones the Storyteller can use to screw over my team as well.

I'm a Brujah this time. Sneaking around, hacking, guns, convincing people these are not the droids they are looking for are the main focus of my character.

... Why would you want a safe flaw? The point of a flaw is to cause trouble for bonus XP. No trouble, no XP.

[Lady Serpentine]

... Why would you want a safe flaw? The point of a flaw is to cause trouble for bonus XP. No trouble, no XP.

I think the idea is 'one that can get XP without being really nasty'; get bonus XP without being crazy risky.