General WoD Discussion #3 Third time's the charm - No wait, that sounds too Exalted

[Turalisj]

Really? Is that the question that is going to keep being asked when a new splat comes out? "Well, what do they DO?"

What does a vampire do, outside of feeding and not getting dusted? What do changelings do, outside of avoiding the true fae? Geists.... period.

[SiuiS]

Really? Is that the question that is going to keep being asked when a new splat comes out? "Well, what do they DO?"

What does a vampire do, outside of feeding and not getting dusted? What do changelings do, outside of avoiding the true fae? Geists.... period.

Changelings try to find a home after being broken and abused. Werewolves adapt to being native American rip-off police. Vampires struggle with the truth of their bleak existence and find some meaning in the ongoing games of societal ritual. Mages peer into the gnostic truths of the world and hope their psyche survives.

What do they do is a valid question. Why play a demon? "Because they have different cool powers" isn't enough, because that can be accomplished by playing mage.

[One Tin Soldier]

Really? Is that the question that is going to keep being asked when a new splat comes out? "Well, what do they DO?"

What does a vampire do, outside of feeding and not getting dusted? What do changelings do, outside of avoiding the true fae? Geists.... period.

I'm not criticizing it, just the opposite. I'd actually be interested in playing a game. I just want to know what being a demon entails if you're not a Saboteur. Infrastructure-based plots seem to mostly be geared towards them, so what if the characters aren't interested in that? There aren't demon social groups like there are for changelings or sin-eaters, in fact it was said that demons distrust each other for good reason.

Are there antagonist groups outside of angels and other demons? What are the bloodline/lodge/whatever equivalents? What are their opinions on other supernaturals? I ask because I really want to know.

[Lady Serpentine]

Changelings try to find a home after being broken and abused.

There's also a hell of a lot of social intrigue that can be done in the courts, which can be entirely separate from finding a home, and their powers, between some of the contracts and Pledgecrafting, are directly geared to help with that if one wants to get involved in it.

There's also the fact that, with sufficient preparation, one can take the fight to the True Fae, especially if you have a good way to get Tokens.

But yeah, that's the major focus; whether or not you're doing any of the other Changeling bits, you're probably at least trying to figure out what to do with your Fetch, and trying to build up some kind of connections, whether to mortals or other Changelings.

[Lord Raziere]

I'm not criticizing it, just the opposite. I'd actually be interested in playing a game. I just want to know what being a demon entails if you're not a Saboteur. Infrastructure-based plots seem to mostly be geared towards them, so what if the characters aren't interested in that? There aren't demon social groups like there are for changelings or sin-eaters, in fact it was said that demons distrust each other for good reason.

Are there antagonist groups outside of angels and other demons? What are the bloodline/lodge/whatever equivalents? What are their opinions on other supernaturals? I ask because I really want to know.

well, its about espionage, so...

well, paranoia.

how can you be sure that the demons you know are on your side? they are all perfect liars, just as good at it as you are.

how do you know that they are for real? that they aren't betraying your trust? the only way to find out, is to get proof. the only way to get proof is to steal it or spy on them. why? because if you just ask, they will either tell a perfect lie, or give false evidence, maybe even thinking that your the enemy.

what do you if you find out that they are on their side- but that they are exploiting mortals in horrific ways to help win their war against the God Machine? can you accept them as your allies if they are using mortals as living bombs against the god machine?

and of course, its very probable that these Agendas aren't speaking to each other. These demons don't know if the saboteurs are actually integrators, or if the integrators are actually saboteurs. after all, the best way to destroy someone is get close to them, while the best way to not get noticed as a sympathizer is to pretend be loyal to the cause. Anyone could be an integrator, or an integrator pretending to be a saboteur.

and what about those other supernatural guys? are they pawns of the God-Machine as well? or of another demon? can you trust anyone? is anyone really who they say they are?

is that girl who is suddenly interested in you an angel in disguise? is your best friend a sleeper agent? can you actually ever live a normal life? are there really only four Agendas? and even if there are only four- who is working for which Agenda? who is a double agent? who is just a spy? who is honest? who isn't? and even if you say are dealing with only one Agenda...well...

say that your a bunch of Saboteurs, how do you go about agreeing with each other on the plan to take down the God-Machine when all you are liars, all of you, being individualists, probably having their own ideas, and with deception, probably will lie about agreeing with each other on how to go about that plan, might implement their own plan while no one is looking, and how do you make sure that no one is an Integrator that is about to betray you, or a Saboteur who is willing to sacrifice a lot of his allies if it means the God-Machine dies?

Say that your a bunch of Tempters who just want to have a good time. how do you define a good time? are you willing to make people sign away their souls? how can you be sure the others agree with you if you don't want to steal their souls? and so on.

you can't be sure of anything in Demon. all the other Demons are liars, perfect ones. you can't trust a single thing any of them say. at any moment- it could all be a lie. your best friend might turn on you. your allies might actually be your enemies. your enemies might be your allies. deception is everywhere and everyone is a spy.

all the other WoD splats? are honest and trusting in comparison to the amount of deceptive paranoid plotting Demons probably engage in. out of necessity. A Vampire? just needs to lie about being a vampire. a Mage? just needs to lie about their name. Changelings may hide themselves from the world but they can be honest amongst their close friends, Werewolves just need to make sure that no one finds out about their animal double-life, The Sin-Eaters, I don't think they make all that much of the effort, they just keep their magic on the down low because they don't want the government to show up, Mummies probably lie about their life too, Prometheans probably want to speak the truth out loud to the rooftops if it didn't make people come at them with pitchforks...

but Demons? ohohohohohohoho......Demons. they breathe lies. their world is not politics, its being the lone spy among many other lone spies hoping that the other lone spies aren't traitors. because ultimately, no matter how together they get...Demons are perhaps one of the loneliest beings in existence, hard not to be when anything could possibly be not what it seems at all.

you could probably make a whole chronicle just out of like, a bunch of Demons suspecting one another of working for the God-Machine and all the intrigues that could result....without ever involving the God-Machine.

Edit: when I say perfect liars? I do mean perfect. There is no power in the world of darkness that can tell whether a Demon is lying or not. you can throw them into a zone of truth, and a Demon would be able to look up at the bright blue sky, and say its green without any problem, the zone of truth, would register it as truth if the Demon decides its true even if its not actually physically True.

[Lady Serpentine]

Actually, Changelings can bypass that, I think. Make them Pledge to tell the truth with some hefty sanctions on them if they don't. When the Pledge shatters so you've no longer got Wyrd invested in it and they go mute, you can probably tell.

[Lord Raziere]

Actually, Changelings can bypass that, I think. Make them Pledge to tell the truth with some hefty sanctions on them if they don't. When the Pledge shatters so you've no longer got Wyrd invested in it and they go mute, you can probably tell.

nope, look at this:

Liar’s Tongue
Demons are perfect liars, but it’s not because of infernal origin or abiding evil. Their superlative ability to
lie comes from a confluence of their gift for language, their Primum, and the fact that their mind is so
completely de-coupled from their Covers.
When a demon forms a thought, it forms in the quantum engine of the demon’s Primum. The demon
decides, in the split second of the thought, whether that thought is true or false. The actual, objective
truth of the matter makes no difference — if the demon says “the sky is orange,” any method of
detecting truth or lies, magical or otherwise, reads that statement as “true” (if the demon wants it to
read as true). Likewise, the demon can tell the truth — but have it read as a lie.
When dealing with human beings this tends not to matter, since most human methods of detecting lies
actually detect physical responses to emotion. As mentioned on p. XX, demons have no problem keeping
rein over these responses. Even a power that detects whether a statement is true rather than whether
the speaking is deliberately lying still fails to work reliably against one of the Unchained. A statement will
read as true if the demon says it is.

a demon could tell the truth and shatter the Wyrd by making it read as a lie. I think its quite clear that no effect can make them tell the truth-truth.

[Lady Serpentine]

Eh... I'd be leery of saying that 'Yeah, what's basically Magic Incarnate and the force responsible for making the True Fae so powerful can't tell that they're lying'.

Also, that's a pretty crappy definition, given that a nonmagical method of detecting that 'the sky is orange' is a lie is looking up, and this apparently counters that as well. Or, say, 'fire is cold'; being burned is a way to test that, so now they have fire immunity. How about telling someone 'objects are only solid when you want them to be' to make them incorporeal whenever they want and able to interact if they choose?

[SiuiS]

There's also a hell of a lot of social intrigue that can be done in the courts, which can be entirely separate from finding a home, and their powers, between some of the contracts and Pledgecrafting, are directly geared to help with that if one wants to get involved in it.

There's also the fact that, with sufficient preparation, one can take the fight to the True Fae, especially if you have a good way to get Tokens.

But yeah, that's the major focus; whether or not you're doing any of the other Changeling bits, you're probably at least trying to figure out what to do with your Fetch, and trying to build up some kind of connections, whether to mortals or other Changelings.

I don't see fitting into a political freehold as being sufficiently different from the broad sense of finding your home to be its own thing. It's a method, not a goal.

Eh... I'd be leery of saying that 'Yeah, what's basically Magic Incarnate and the force responsible for making the True Fae so powerful can't tell that they're lying'.

Also, that's a pretty crappy definition, given that a nonmagical method of detecting that 'the sky is orange' is a lie is looking up, and this apparently counters that as well. Or, say, 'fire is cold'; being burned is a way to test that, so now they have fire immunity. How about telling someone 'objects are only solid when you want them to be' to make them incorporeal whenever they want and able to interact if they choose?

Wyrd is not the source of magic. It's at most 1/10th of all possible magic, probably far less.
Looking up and seeing a blue sky requires human eyes, human brains, human socialization, not reading colors opposite on a color wheel, dealing only with visible spectrum, dealing specifically with an empty concept as 'sky' is not a discrete object, and dealing with a manifestation of the fallen world and trusting that you know the truth and haven't just bought a pack of lies this whole time.

Sky doesn't exist supernally. Its a manifestation of the fallen over which the godmachine rules. The godmachine's built in back door exceptions could likely get by silly phenomenal understanding, because you're the reader and the godmachine is the author; if the author's legal agent says the author intends the sky orange right now, you can't argue. You'd need more proof; finding Sky and evaluating it's contracts with Earth and Sea to tell what colors it has purview of and how much fidelity to that concept it possesses, maybe seek out whichever spirit is Sky and look at that and hope it's not orange, etc.

Cold fire, orange sky, being unable to trust the truth of your eyes,relying on a discrete, objective and not at all mutable reality? That's a bad way to approach things. Cold fire happens.

"Objects are only solid when you want them to be" is like, starting level Mage and werewolf and changeling, after all.

[Lord Raziere]

Eh... I'd be leery of saying that 'Yeah, what's basically Magic Incarnate and the force responsible for making the True Fae so powerful can't tell that they're lying'.

Also, that's a pretty crappy definition, given that a nonmagical method of detecting that 'the sky is orange' is a lie is looking up, and this apparently counters that as well. Or, say, 'fire is cold'; being burned is a way to test that, so now they have fire immunity. How about telling someone 'objects are only solid when you want them to be' to make them incorporeal whenever they want and able to interact if they choose?

thats not how it works and you know it.

they aren't reality warpers with their lies, its just that if you go up to a human and say
"the sky is orange!"
and have it read as true, even though its not...
the human will think that you sincerely believe that you think the sky is orange. they will basically think you are crazy, but it will still read as you making a statement you "believe" to be true.

whereas if you go up to a human and say
"the sky is orange!"
and have it read as a lie...
the human will think that your joking in some weird random manner and step away from you.

while if you say
"the sky is blue!"
and have it read as a lie...
they will probably think your being sarcastic in some weird manner since that is clearly true, why is he acting like it isn't?

but all of these are just examples. the lies you will craft will probably be far more plausible.

but really, C'nor, immunity to all lie detection = reality warping? I thought you knew better

[Lady Serpentine]

I don't see fitting into a political freehold as being sufficiently different from the broad sense of finding your home to be its own thing. It's a method, not a goal.

Wyrd is not the source of magic. It's at most 1/10th of all possible magic, probably far less.

I meant for Changelings, really; I was assuming that in this case it's just Changelings and Demons.

Looking up and seeing a blue sky requires human eyes, human brains, human socialization, not reading colors opposite on a color wheel, dealing only with visible spectrum, dealing specifically with an empty concept as 'sky' is not a discrete object, and dealing with a manifestation of the fallen world and trusting that you know the truth and haven't just bought a pack of lies this whole time.

Can't really argue there. It's much like the debate over 'it destroys the surface of the sea, does that mean that the concept of surface for the sea no longer exists, or a layer of atoms, or what?' that happened in the dysfunctional rules thread for 3.5.

Sky doesn't exist supernally. Its a manifestation of the fallen over which the godmachine rules. The godmachine's built in back door exceptions could likely get by silly phenomenal understanding, because you're the reader and the godmachine is the author; if the author's legal agent says the author intends the sky orange right now, you can't argue. You'd need more proof; finding Sky and evaluating it's contracts with Earth and Sea to tell what colors it has purview of and how much fidelity to that concept it possesses, maybe seek out whichever spirit is Sky and look at that and hope it's not orange, etc.

Wouldn't those methods not work as well, though?

Cold fire, orange sky, being unable to trust the truth of your eyes,relying on a discrete, objective and not at all mutable reality? That's a bad way to approach things. Cold fire happens.

"Objects are only solid when you want them to be" is like, starting level Mage and werewolf and changeling, after all.

Pretty sure neither of those can just say something and have it become true, though? Mages, at least, have to worry about Paradox, whereas a Demon can just grant that to a bunch of humans and send them off to do things in return.

To take an example that actually is paradoxical... 'I'll pay you in cash', read as True. A way of finding out would be not being paid, right? But at the same time, the Demon never intends to and never does pay you. So where do you get the money?

I mean, if it's intended to make them able to do anything they can say, then that's fine... But it seems like the intent was just to make them incredibly good liars, and it ended up as this instead.

@Lord Raziere:

Methods of detection 'magical and non-magical'. There's nothing that says they believe you think that, they believe it's true. Since ways of detecting it's not true include experiencing that it isn't, it warps reality, at least for the person they told.

[Lord Raziere]

@Lord Raziere:

Methods of detection 'magical and non-magical'. There's nothing that says they believe you think that, they believe it's true. Since ways of detecting it's not true include experiencing that it isn't, it warps reality, at least for the person they told.

*facepalm*

your seriously arguing this. what. please tell me your being heavily sarcastic right now. are we really going to have this conversation, against all common sense? are you really going to be this detail obsessed over a technical definition of a word? are we really going to go there? is this a thing that is seriously going to take place?

because I think we both now, thats now how its meant to be interpreted. I think we both know, its just a freaking lie detection immunity power. why are you insisting on this stupid interpretation? why? because its literal? because its the "logical end conclusion" or whatever? because you want to use some "RAW" thing ? just... WHY. just WHY.

This, your insistence on this interpretation we both know, is not how its meant to be interpreted at all, thats clearly wrong, does not make ANY sense to me. whatsoever. At all. You know this does not make sense and is not supposed to, yet your deliberately, insisting upon interpreting it this way.

WHY? just........WHY? what possible reason? because I can't think of any, if this is a joke, C'nor, IT IS NOT FUNNY.

[Lady Serpentine]

Overreacting much?

As for why... Yeah, okay, it's a silly way to do it, but A, it apparently isn't as clear-cut as you think, as SiuiS didn't have any objections to it working that way, and B, the reason to go for that when I know it's silly is to point out that the power is badly written.

If one can make the argument that a power that is meant to make one supernaturally immune to having your lies detected is actually a potent form of reality warping, and the only counterargument to be made is that they obviously didn't intend for it to work that way, that's a problem - and is indicative that there are quite likely to be other issues with the power.

[Lord Raziere]

yes, if your arguing from a purely letter of the wording point of view.

I do not care for the letter of things. I care for its spirit. the spirit of something is far more important than its mere lettering. I do not play twisting word games with people.

the spirit of the power is that its an anti-lie detection power, and therefore that is what it is, regardless of whatever meaningless twisting letter definitions or interpretation you come up with. to insinuate otherwise is to ruin the game with your false twisted interpretation. while the interpretation may exist, its inherently false and therefore should be disregarded, and yes while the text should be corrected, one should also recognize that any letter interpretation that distorts things away from its spirit is inherently false and should not be regarded as a valid argument.

you place too much emphasis on the physical wording and not on its intention. that is a severe case of bad prioritizing in my opinion.

[Lady Serpentine]

As I just said, though, the point is not 'use this interpretation'. The point is that, since the power is badly written in at least one way, it's entirely possible that it's badly written in several, and you should think carefully about whether or not they actually intended that level of non-detection or if they were also making assumptions about how it works at a higher level than 'it doesn't actually change things'.

[MugaSofer]

I believe the canonical example of this power is being interviewed by a detective - the demon need make no subterfuge roll, and the detective will perceive them as perfectly honest. But this will not impede their ability to actually examine the crime scene and reconstruct the real sequence of events; they are not required to believe you are *correct*, only honest.

(Supernatural lie-detection abilities are not allowed to get around this by directly sensing the platonic essence of Truth or Falsehood in a statement, either, although that is not apparent in this example.)

***

Tin Soldier, I think the answers you seek are found in the Kickstarter preview PDF.

[SiuiS]

Overreacting much?

As for why... Yeah, okay, it's a silly way to do it, but A, it apparently isn't as clear-cut as you think, as SiuiS didn't have any objections to it working that way, and B, the reason to go for that when I know it's silly is to point out that the power is badly written.

If one can make the argument that a power that is meant to make one supernaturally immune to having your lies detected is actually a potent form of reality warping, and the only counterargument to be made is that they obviously didn't intend for it to work that way, that's a problem - and is indicative that there are quite likely to be other issues with the power.

Oh, no. I didn't say anything because "this becomes effectively true" is good enough for me. There's a contract to break a Wyrd oath without breaking it, I fully endorse demons being able to avoid Wyrd-based lie detection.

Those methods would work because by the time you got there it wouldn't matter any more. Hell, if I say the sky is grey, and is cloudy, and you go do a Supernal ritual and finish in ten hours, that's now wrong – because the night sky is much closer to black than grey.

Don't use D&D logic. This game is designed in spirit not letter. The powersync it works, don't quibble edge cases. The writers specifically say they don't care about edge case quibbles. This isn't programming. It needn't compile. It must do what is necessary for the game and that's it.

[Lady Serpentine]

Don't use D&D logic. This game is designed in spirit not letter. The powersync it works, don't quibble edge cases. The writers specifically say they don't care about edge case quibbles. This isn't programming. It needn't compile. It must do what is necessary for the game and that's it.

Sure, as I've agreed several times now. I'm just noting that if it's got major flaws in it like that, it should be looked at more closely than you might otherwise, to make sure it should work that way.

That said, a group of Demons able to do this would be kinda neat. Especially if they were on different sides. Turns combat and such into 'who tells the best story', really.

[SiuiS]

Sure, as I've agreed several times now. I'm just noting that if it's got major flaws in it like that, it should be looked at more closely than you might otherwise, to make sure it should work that way.

That said, a group of Demons able to do this would be kinda neat. Especially if they were on different sides. Turns combat and such into 'who tells the best story', really.

You're not noting that it is not a definitive, major flaw. That's the contention; I see no flaw whatsoever.

[Mono Vertigo]

What do Demons do?
First, they don't have to wreck Infrastructure and look for linchpins. They can simply hijack them for their own purpose (see the Suborned Infrastructure merit).
Beside messing with Infrastructure and avoiding Angelic attention, though? Learning to be human. Cheating in small ways for their own profit - or not. Fully integrate the identity of their Cover, or, to the contrary, try to make their own one. Seek Hell (which, being either a physical place or a state of mind or an absence of God-Machine, can be pretty much anything). Seek newly-Fallen Demons to help them integrate into human society, or tempt Angels into Falling. Have a family - yes, Demons can have children, and while children with only one Demonic parent should do pretty okay, fully-Demonic children are likely to get into a lot of trouble (for reasons that the ST is supposed to explore); I've read a short story inspired by the idea such a kid is not going to be born with a Cover, and therefore, other Demons will have to make one from bits and pieces before it is born. Have fun with Cryptids and Cultists and Stigmatics, many of which may not even want to harm you!

I believe the canonical example of this power is being interviewed by a detective - the demon need make no subterfuge roll, and the detective will perceive them as perfectly honest. But this will not impede their ability to actually examine the crime scene and reconstruct the real sequence of events; they are not required to believe you are *correct*, only honest.

(Supernatural lie-detection abilities are not allowed to get around this by directly sensing the platonic essence of Truth or Falsehood in a statement, either, although that is not apparent in this example.)

Yup. The Demon can sound perfectly sincere.
Which means you can suspect he's telling the truth, or he's delusional or crazy, or mistaken, or has a faulty memory. Or, well, that he's lying really damn well (at which point you become paranoid because everything he says sounds equally sincere, even when he claims the sky is yellow). Still plenty of reasons to ping your radar.
It does mean, however, that if a Demon were to wander into Lie To Me or The Mentalist, he might drive the protagonists crazy.

[Turalisj]

It does mean, however, that if a Demon were to wander into Lie To Me or The Mentalist, he might drive the protagonists crazy.

There are multiple Demon Embeds specifically designed to drive investigators completely nuts. A Demon with the right Embeds and lucky rolls can walk into a fully crowded room, cameras all rolling, walk up to a guy and slit his throat, then walk out without appearing on the camera, anyone remembering him, or a speck of evidence on him. And can say completely honestly that he had nothing to do with it.

[Lady Serpentine]

You're not noting that it is not a definitive, major flaw. That's the contention; I see no flaw whatsoever.

It's not that it's actually a rule flaw in the sense of it being an interpretation anyone might use, no. It's simply that it is a major flaw in terms of 'well, we've got this rule here so we're fine with writing the rules to be ambiguous'; the rule should be meant to cover things that aren't obvious and slipped through the cracks, and to me at least, it's not here, which indicates that the writing may be faulty in other ways.

[One Tin Soldier]

What do Demons do?
First, they don't have to wreck Infrastructure and look for linchpins. They can simply hijack them for their own purpose (see the Suborned Infrastructure merit).
Beside messing with Infrastructure and avoiding Angelic attention, though? Learning to be human. Cheating in small ways for their own profit - or not. Fully integrate the identity of their Cover, or, to the contrary, try to make their own one. Seek Hell (which, being either a physical place or a state of mind or an absence of God-Machine, can be pretty much anything). Seek newly-Fallen Demons to help them integrate into human society, or tempt Angels into Falling. Have a family - yes, Demons can have children, and while children with only one Demonic parent should do pretty okay, fully-Demonic children are likely to get into a lot of trouble (for reasons that the ST is supposed to explore); I've read a short story inspired by the idea such a kid is not going to be born with a Cover, and therefore, other Demons will have to make one from bits and pieces before it is born. Have fun with Cryptids and Cultists and Stigmatics, many of which may not even want to harm you!


Yup. The Demon can sound perfectly sincere.
Which means you can suspect he's telling the truth, or he's delusional or crazy, or mistaken, or has a faulty memory. Or, well, that he's lying really damn well (at which point you become paranoid because everything he says sounds equally sincere, even when he claims the sky is yellow). Still plenty of reasons to ping your radar.
It does mean, however, that if a Demon were to wander into Lie To Me or The Mentalist, he might drive the protagonists crazy.

There, this is the answer I was looking for. A wide range of plots, focusing on different parts of a demon's life. Thank you. Raz, your answer was nice and flavorful, but it mostly made me wonder why a demon would leave their Cover if it was that dangerous.

If the preview PDF is free, I'll download it and check it out. I was under the impression that it was a backer reward or something.

[Lord Raziere]

There, this is the answer I was looking for. A wide range of plots, focusing on different parts of a demon's life. Thank you. Raz, your answer was nice and flavorful, but it mostly made me wonder why a demon would leave their Cover if it was that dangerous.

If the preview PDF is free, I'll download it and check it out. I was under the impression that it was a backer reward or something.

why would they leave their Cover if it was that dangerous?

well see, unlike all the other guys in WoD, their morality stat IS Cover. they don't want that going down. However! once its at zero, that doesn't mean your character is unplayable, it just means you have no cover and the angels are attacking you. which is bad, but if you got a back up Cover, you can bounce back no prob. and you should Always Have a Backup Cover.

but there is at least ONE reason to leave your Cover: emergencies. dire emergencies. All Demons can decide to Go Loud. Going Loud is basically their super-powered boss form that they whip out when its absolutely necessary. When your using this thing, it means something has already gone horribly wrong. the ideal Demon never needs to resort to this, or even resort to Exploits which lower your Cover and make it more likely that you'll get discovered. ideally, a Demon can fight against the God-Machine using only Embeds in many clever ways, but things are rarely that ideal. that and as you get more powerful, more glitches in your Cover start appearing....

but yeah, your basically right. Demons don't want to leave their Cover! In their situation its vital to their survival. Of course they may leave their Cover in very private settings to "let their hair down"....without any surveillance around... because while the Demons are perfect liars, they are still just as human as us, and still have human troubles about lying... they cannot do any involuntary human expression. if a Demon yawns, its because they chose to yawn. everything they express is intentional, right down to the most intimate of affections. this can be a problem for them as you can tell.

[Leliel]

Also, it should be noted that this does not mean demons are completely amoral-indeed, many of them have difficulties with guilt, since as angels they never felt it so acutely before.

They just don't have PTSD or long-lasting mental dysfunctions because of it.

[Lady Serpentine]

Do you mean that they can't, or just that they don't do so mechanically? Earlier nitpicking about things aside Demon does look interesting, and I'd like to know which it is before looking into getting it.

[Mewtarthio]

Demons have total control of their physiological reactions (unless they have certain Glitches). If a demon laughs, cries out, trembles, or manifests a nervous tic, it's of the demon's own volition. A demon's relationship with PTSD is about as alien as you'd expect. They can feel emotions, but they don't automatically display them. A demon suffering a panic attack could outwardly appear perfectly calm. Likewise, a demon could buy someone's military service and demonstrate a flashback so extreme and so real that the best doctors in the country would swear he had severe PTSD, even though the demon doesn't actually have the memories to flash back to and is inwardly completely lucid.

[Lady Serpentine]

That's... Actually making me come up with a rather creepy character. Someone who, as a result of being essentially a Demon in viewpoint, but not knowing how to break from the God-Machine, had to serve it, until she figured out a way to get out, and actually does have horrible guilt issues over this, as well as PTSD from, for instance, killing a fair number of people.

However, she doesn't actually know how to show them, and thus doesn't get any sort of emotional support from people at all - in fact, even when she's actively dealing with this and suicidal, she tends to only be outwardly distracted, at most, and thus often gets shouted at while she's going through it.

[Friv]

I hate myself for making this comparison, but it seems kind of like demons are players, and their covers are player characters.

It doesn't matter how many terrible things my character goes through - those things are all real as far as the game is concerned, but I'm unlikely to develop PTSD as a result of my character's horrible military service (now, if I had PTSD going in to the game things might shake out differently, but presumably demons don't have those problems pre-Cover.)

[One Tin Soldier]

I hate myself for making this comparison, but it seems kind of like demons are players, and their covers are player characters.

It doesn't matter how many terrible things my character goes through - those things are all real as far as the game is concerned, but I'm unlikely to develop PTSD as a result of my character's horrible military service (now, if I had PTSD going in to the game things might shake out differently, but presumably demons don't have those problems pre-Cover.)

Seems like an apt enough comparison.

I've been reading through the preview pretty much all day, so I think I have a better idea of how a typical demon game goes.

For one, rings of demons are more common than I initially thought, it seems. Trust issues abound, but it seems that most demons are inclined to work through them rather than isolate themselves. The old saying about where you keep your friends and enemies springs to mind.

I found the idea of the Cipher really interesting. Every demon gets their own custom powers, with a side helping of personal plot development. A pretty cool idea, though it might be a tad hard on the storyteller, especially in a large group.

Oh, and I've come to think that the SCP universe might be Hell. My chain of reasoning:
1. The Church of the Broken God's titular deity bears a striking resemblance to the aesthetics of the God-Machine.
2. The Broken God is just that: broken.
3. Some demons, particularly Saboteurs, think that they can achieve Hell by destroying the God-Machine.
Therefore, an argument could be made that the SCP universe is one where the demons won. This might mean any number of things, like the O5s being high ranking demons, for instance. The real rulers of Hell.