Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

[lord_khaine]

Personaly i have just placed them out of LOS in round 1, then let them move into position when it became their turn. Being relentless is a huge advantage for them, though of course they do need something to hide behind.

But have you considered a Spiritseer to give them conceal instead?
It doesnt bring the firepower that the other options give, but you could use the spare points on more Reapers, and the 2+ cover save would protect them thoughout most of the battle.

[Tehnar]

I can't really guarantee there will be LOS blocking terrain to hide them behind; besides a Waveserpent is great and a Falcon is a solid choice.

A Aegis, Spiritseer and a Icarus is a solid choice as well, for about the same amount of points. I like to keep my list mobile though, so I would prefer to avoid any static elements.

[shadow_archmagi]

But, like a Herald of Tzeentch, Shadowsun's Command Link has range, and she doesn't need to join the Riptide to be effective. A Buff Commander, does.
Ignores Cover isn't entirely useful for Tau, because they have Markerlights, and stripping cover is totally fine against most armies.

If Shadowsun is working for you. Keep her. Until you're busting out triple Skyrays and/or Hammerheads, Tau don't have a lot of options for anti-armour, and BS5 with dual Fusion Guns works fine.

Ah. Excellent point. Looking at 1500 now, I'm thinking of something like this:

Sniper Drone Teams for markerlights
Broadsides for across-the-map vehicle popping.
Fire Warriors for mandatory troops. (Maybe a kroot squad?)
Shadowsun&Crisis Friends hanging around within a foot of a Riptide so it can still reroll 1s.
A barracuda because there's one in the box and sometimes enemies forget to grab something with Skyfire

I feel like that might leave me with too much hammer and not enough anvil though. On the other hand, is there such a thing as too much hammer?

Also, does Outflank work the way I think it does? You can just pop in anywhere along the table edge, including the enemy deployment zone for a free Linebreaker VP?

Also, do things besides secondary objectives award VPs? I thought I remembered each destroyed unit being worth a VP, but I can't find that anywhere.

[Jormengand]

While Rhinos having three Fire Points would be a nice change, it doesn't exist.

Second, Rhinos suck and MSU is dead.

And one bolter, sorry. I care.

Also, does Outflank work the way I think it does? You can just pop in anywhere along the table edge, including the enemy deployment zone for a free Linebreaker VP?

If your unit survives until the end of the game, sure.

Also, do things besides secondary objectives award VPs? I thought I remembered each destroyed unit being worth a VP, but I can't find that anywhere.

The primary objectives give VPs - they depend on which mission you rolled. (Mission 2 is kill things).

[Squark]

And one bolter, sorry. I care.

I assumed you were counting the storm bolter. However... A lone plasmacannon doesn't really syrengize with 3-4 boltgun shots. If you want rhinos, Space Wolves or Chaos Marines are probalby your best bet, since they can get 2 of the same weapon in a single squad in the rhino.

[Jormengand]

A lone plasmacannon doesn't really syrengize with 3-4 boltgun shots.

Plasma cannons have an annoying tendency to leave exactly one enemy marine alive, which is what the bolters are for. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Renegade Paladin]

That right there is what Wheels gets for not taking any tanks.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Surprisingly, only 1 of my Black Templar units doesn't convert to the new Codex and that's just because you don't get variable size command squads since the load out is still fine.

Even my Storm Shield techmarine can represent something, even if its no longer something I would actually take.

Depressing thing is that my assault squad now has to be upgraded to Vanguard Veterans in order to keep their Storm shields and are actually cheaper if I do so (for the small cost of ditching the melta bombs).

[Forrestfire]

So I finally got my hands on the Space Marines codex (never had the chance to go pick up my pre-order from my flgs), and I was wondering.

Where did the idea that Techmarines can bolster Aegis lines come from? Is there an exception hidden somewhere in the book or something I missed?

[shadow_archmagi]

That right there is what Wheels gets for not taking any tanks.

Actually, I was just thinking about something similar- Between Kroot, Sniper Drone Teams, Pathfinders, and Shadowsun, it should be possible to form a Tau army that has massive deployment flexibility. I may have to put together an ultimate Mont'ka design. I'm not sure how practical it would be. Is there a name for such designs?

[Cheesegear]

Where did the idea that Techmarines can bolster Aegis lines come from? Is there an exception hidden somewhere in the book or something I missed?

It doesn't.
Bolster Defenses improves terrain, which means pretty much anything. With the specific exemption of things that you have bought as part of your army list. However, Scouts can have Stealth and/or Telion to bring it to 3+ (and everything else to 2+).

Or, if you're one of those groups that's hard up for terrain, and you use Aegis Lines normally as part of every board, well, yes.

[ZeltArruin]

It doesn't.
Bolster Defenses improves terrain, which means pretty much anything. With the specific exemption of things that you have bought as part of your army list. However, Scouts can have Stealth and/or Telion to bring it to 3+ (and everything else to 2+).

Or, if you're one of those groups that's hard up for terrain, and you use Aegis Lines normally as part of every board, well, yes.

Did they errata the camo cloaks to give stealth rather than and unnamed +1 bonus to cover saves? Because with Telion and cloaks, everyone but him get +2 to cover saves.

[Cheesegear]

Did they errata the camo cloaks to give stealth rather than and unnamed +1 bonus to cover saves? Because with Telion and cloaks, everyone but him get +2 to cover saves.

Telion also has a Cloak.

[ZeltArruin]

Telion also has a Cloak.

Well then, +2 cover saves for all. Telion is an even better upgrade then.

[Forrestfire]

It doesn't.
Bolster Defenses improves terrain, which means pretty much anything. With the specific exemption of things that you have bought as part of your army list. However, Scouts can have Stealth and/or Telion to bring it to 3+ (and everything else to 2+).

Or, if you're one of those groups that's hard up for terrain, and you use Aegis Lines normally as part of every board, well, yes.

Well I severely misread posts in the last thread then. Or it was corrected and resolved and I missed it or something.

[Rakaydos]

Does this thread include discussing army lists? I've been away from the tabletop fer a few months, but I've been toying with a few variations on my lists which might be interestingly... unconventional to discuss.

[Yaktan]

Yes we like to see army lists and give you all sorts of advice.

Anyway, here is a battle report. My first victory!

Armies

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Me, Tau

Shadowsun
-command drone

Crisis Team
-Fusion, Plasma, Flamer
-Fusion, Plasma, Flamer
-Fusion, Plasma, VRT
-gun drone

12 Firewarriors
12 Firewarriors
16 kroot
-sniper rounds

6 Gun drones

Skyray


Him, Chaos Marines
Sorcerer
10 Marines, Flamers
10 Marines, Unknown
5 Havocs
Dreadnaught
2 Chaos Spawn

Setup

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We got long sides, the scouring. I deployed first. The kroot outflanked. The firewarriors went into a pair of ruins with objectives, but not quite in range of the objectives. The skyray went behind one firewarrior squad and the drones went by the other one.

He put his dreadnaught and sorcerer behind a solid building, one squad of marines next to them, and the havocs on the other side, and the spawn beyond them.

He had the warlord trait to infiltrate some infanty, and he got to go second with that, so I placed shadowsun and the suits behind a small ruin towards the middle of the board. He put his second squad of marines towards the skyray firewarriors.

Turn 1

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I got first turn. Shadowsun and co jumped forward and toasted his sorcerer. Score! The skyray also killed one havoc with a seeker missile. Otherwise my shots just bounced off. Shadowsun and co then made a strategic retreat.

His army moved forward with the dreadnaught getting a couple hits on my suits and the marines killing a couple firewarriors by the skyray. The havocs began their game-long streak of ineffectiveness with their shots bouncing off my skyray.

Turn 2

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First my kroot arrived and went just where I wanted them, so they were right behind the skyray marines. Then Shadowsun and co moved forward again, but not so far this time, while the gun drones moved up with them. Then the lot of them joined with the firewarriors over there in killing all but two of the squad, while the kroot killed off about half of their marine squad. The skyray popped a pair of havocs and the firewarriors there killed a spawn with rapid fire pulse rifles.

On his turn the dreadnaught moved forward and did some ineffectual shooting. The pair of marines that survied from their squad shot a firewarrior. Also, the other marine squad, with the flamers, turned around and ravaged my kroot. The killed a bunch with the flamers and their guns, then charged them to finish them off. The remaining chaos spawn managed to charge my firewarriors, and lost a wound to overwatch. Then in the combat it got poisoned weapons as its special random ability and eneded up rolling all 3's on its to-wound. Then my firewarriors went all ninja and knocked off another wound punching it in the face.

Turn 3

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This time shadowsun and co jumped onto a hill and blasted away at the dreadnaught. One of her minions got a good shot and the dreadnaught blew up. Kaboom!

The skyray killed another couple havocs while the unengaged firewarriors finished off their marines. Then shadowsun and co and the drones all jumped towards the remaining marines. This time the spawn managed to kill a couple firewarriors but they made their save and toughed it out.

His remaining marines went after shadowsun's squad, but did nothing. The spawn and firewarriors went at it and all wiffed.

Turn 4

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The skyray missed shooting the last havoc while the unengaged firewarriors moved to claim their objective, which was 4 points. Shadowsun and co almost wiped out the marine squad, just leaving the champion.

The drones charged in to help the firewarriors against the spawn. The drones did nothing against the spawn, but the firewarriors finally managed to punch it in the face and kill it.

At this point we ended since the flgs was closing and I had pretty clearly won.

So, the game was very good. Everything in my army pretty much worked how it was supposed to, blowing his guys into little peices before they could get to close, for the most part. Shadowsun and the suits really pulled their weight. I was amazed at my ninja firewarriors going toe-to-toe with a dedicated assault unit like chaos spawn. The skyray seemed to work quite well, though it was out of missiles at the end. The tricky thing was it was just out of smart missile range, so it was relying on its seeker missiles to kill the havocs, which were the main threat to it. I did get lucky in his havocs getting 1's and 2's on their penetration rolls.

[Cheesegear]

Does this thread include discussing army lists? I've been away from the tabletop fer a few months, but I've been toying with a few variations on my lists which might be interestingly... unconventional to discuss.

You sure can! If you want to provide Fluff for your army as to why it's unconventional or some particular meta-related reason why your army is the way it is, that's even better. Because otherwise, 'unconventional' lists tend to be bad, and you'll get told so. The 'conventional' lists are conventional for a reason.

...Although, that depends heavily on what army you're taking, and we don't know what that is unless you post a list!

[Rakaydos]

I belive this is an 1750 list

Space wolfs/IG Melee Rush list. (HQ deathstar + Support)

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Space Wolves:
WarlordHQ: Thunderwolf Lord, Artificer, Belt of russ, PF+WC, Saga of the Warrior Born, 1 Fenwolf
HQ: Thunderwolf Lord, Artificer, Stormshield, Pfist, WTT, 1 Fenwolf
HQ: Canis Wolfborn, 1 Fenwolf
HQ: Thunderwolf Lord, Artificer, Stormshield, WClaw, WTT, 1 Fenwolf

Troop: 12-13 Fenwolves (cannot score)
Troop: 12-13 Fenwolves (cannot score)

IG:
HQ: CCS, 4 meltaguns, Chimera (hull flamer)

Troop: Platoon
-PCS, 4 flamers, Chimera (hull flamer)
-10 guard (no upgrades)
-10 guard (no upgrades)

FA: 2 Vendetta squadron

-I could probably shoehorn in a drop pod with 4 combi meltas in 1850, but I'd lose some of my supporting stuff. And 4 Combimeltas might not be enough to guarantee FB on a vehical (such as a demolisher-siege-shield tank who's name I'm blanking on)

Deployment:

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Standard deployment puts the deathstar in the middle, Shield-Lordsright on the edge of the deploymeny zone, the squad's fenwolf companions 2" side/behind them, and Canis and the Warlord in back. The fenwolf squads deploy several rankes at full 2" separation on either side of the deathstar, within Canis's leadership/leadership reroll bubble. Not sure where the chimeras should go- possibly behind the fenwolves, but I'd be missing out on their full flat-out speed unless the wolves maxxed their run. Cover might be worth it though. "Spare" Guardsmen sit in he vendettas- either they drop on arrival to hold a rear objective or they sit in their birds until turn 5 to contest/steal.

Tactics:

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Mainly this list is about giving your enemy too much to worry about and not enough time to deal with it. Do you shoot the T5 2+/3++ deathstar moving at bike speeds toward you, or the intimidatingly large squads of 6+ T4? (or in this version, the 12AV front Chimeras with a 5+ cover save- though my older version had a drop pod of combi meltas for alpha strike potential) You only get 1-2 shooting phases to decide before 12" move + fleet (run or charge) gets me in your face, and the vendettas are coming in for fire support just before impact. the deathstar can split in half if need be, the Shield Lords tanking challanges for Canis or the Warlord to wreck the rest of the squad- when the Shieldlords die, the Warlord's invuln and armor is better than Canis's. Also the HQs can choose to join the survivors of a Fenwolf squad if you're willing to drop to T4- more LOS bodies.
I havnt had a chance to expiriment with the Chimeras, but their short ranged weaponry would be good for sofening up enemy deathstars, given a head-to-head confrontation.

[Tehnar]

Before you plan on sweeping everything with your deathstar keep this in mind.

With proper positioning a smart opponent will get around your 3++ and torch the unit down to a manageable size.

[Darwin]

If anyone in this thread has played Killteam (we are using the ruleset from here: http://heralds-of-ruin.blogspot.dk/p...eam-rules.html) I could use some advice on how to get back on my feet in the campaign after having suffered major losses to my roster.
I'm playing a chaos warband and after 2 games I've lost my Obliterator and 2 Marines, having only regained 60 of 100 points lost and my opponents are either still at their original 250 or managed to get ahead without suffering any casulties.

While the remainder of my army has recieved a few small upgrades from experience, I'm severely behind in points. After my last game I have 30 points to spend, where would those points best be spent?

[Kosall]

Taking a list from Cheese I'm going to play this in a tournament coming up in Late October. It seems to be the standard flavor of the month Space Marine build. I will be mostly seeing other lists like this one + the assorted Eldar, Tau, Taudar and Eldau. I'm not really familiar with the meta in the city I'll be traveling to, but I can comfortably assume it will match mine since we aren't all that far apart.

The questions I have revolve around whether it would be better to drop the libby + scouts for something else (Allies or otherwise)? Or maybe drop some of these OP cannons for some other Heavy Support?

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Argent Hawks (Why yes it is based on an 80s cartoon from the US, why do you ask?)
White Scars Chapter Tactics
Kor'Sarro; Moondrakkan (On Loan) - 150 Points
Librarian; Mastery 2, Bike - 125 Points
Bikes (x4); x2 Grav-Guns, Grav Pistol, Attack Bike, Melta; 184 Points
Bikes (x4); Grav-Gun, Melta-Gun, Grav Pistol, Attack Bike, Melta; 179 Points
Bikes (x4); Grav-Gun, Melta-Gun, Grav Pistol, Attack Bike, Melta; 179 Points
Bikes (x4); x2 Grav-Guns, Grav Pistol, Attack Bike, Melta; 184 Points
Scouts (x5), x5 Sniper Rifles, x5 Camo Cloaks; 75 points
Scouts (x10), x1 Missile Launcher, x9 Sniper Rifles, x10 Camo Cloaks; 154 points
Stormtalon; Skyhammer Missile Launcher; 125 Points
Stormtalon; Skyhammer Missile Launcher; 125 Points
Thunderfire Cannon - 100 Points
Thunderfire Cannon - 100 Points
Thunderfire Cannon - 100 Points

[Forrestfire]

If anything, I think you'd be better off grabbing a DA librarian and 5 man scout squad, for prescience.

[Gryffon]

Does anyone on this thread listen to the 11th Company podcast and/or plan on attending the tournament they hold in November? Just curious as I'm a local in the area they hold it in.

[LeSwordfish]

So, having looked through the Farsight Enclaves book, i have a handful of opinions on it- what do other people think.

• You'll miss Shadowsun, but you can still take ethereals.
• Crisis suits can't carry an entire game as troops - 3 suits is approximately six assault marines, with all the problems implicit in that. All your opponent need do is keep an objective out of cover for it to be very hard to take.
• You CAN, however, take Kroot. Kroot don't need bonding knives. If you've got an army of suits and kroot, you can give those suits "Scoring" for probably less than 10 points, total.
• Fire warriors DO need bonding knives, meaning that the more Fire warriors and Pathfinders you have, the more this army is a tax.
• The Eight, farsight's bomb given individual rules, vary a bunch. Some are fairly close to what you'd be wanting in a commander anyway. Some are bad. The inability to augument their wargear (at ALL, as well as the restrictions later) means that you'll really miss the lack of drones/iridium/PENchips/whatever. It's also unclear if you can even take them individually. 9/10 times, a custom commander will be better and cheaper. You don't NEED to take any of them, or farsight. So don't, really.
• That said, a riptide as warlord is pretty hot. In theory you can even take three elites riptides
• The specialist wargear is largely dross. The Mirrorcodex (+1 to StI, chance of Preferred Enemy) might be nice, as might the Warscaper drone. Neither is essential, and IIRC nor is any of the others.

Overall, if you want a fluffy all-suits army, it's a codex worth taking. (The bonding knives are a tax, yes, but they'll come out to ~30pts or less in an all-suits army.)

If you want 9 scoring suits plus sixty kroot, it's DEFINITELY worth taking. In that case, all you lose is the signature systems. It's certainly worth considering as an allied formation- if you have a commander, an ethereal, and a half-dozen suits, you can take the ethereal and the suits as an allied force, and make the suits scoring for six points.

[Cheesegear]

Does anyone on this thread listen to the 11th Company podcast and/or plan on attending the tournament they hold in November?

I listen. But, since I live in Australia, I hardly think I'll be going to their tournament.

[Rakaydos]

Before you plan on sweeping everything with your deathstar keep this in mind.

With proper positioning a smart opponent will get around your 3++ and torch the unit down to a manageable size.

With two shieldlords to cover a broad front and Fenwolves covering (and filing) the flanks, the only real threat of the combat lords being outflanked is the classic DS suicide melta team, which can be look-out-sir'd to the fenwolf escorts before they're outran.

A full drop pod army is more of a threat, of course, but also more of an opportunity, in that with a more defensive deployment, you can use cover and still expect most of his army to simply drop in your lap.

[Gryffon]

I listen. But, since I live in Australia, I hardly think I'll be going to their tournament.

If you decided you wanted to, I would gladly offer you a place to stay just for a chance to see you play, heh. Though the cost in getting here is probably far worse than the cost to stay here.

[shadow_archmagi]

Finally got a chance to play against my friend's necrons.

Quantum Shielding is horrific. By turn two I had almost nothing capable of penetrating his transports, so his necrons (and those doomsday guns!!!) just flew around being completely invincible at all times forever.

[Ishikar]

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Argent Hawks (Why yes it is based on an 80s cartoon from the US, why do you ask?)
White Scars Chapter Tactics
Kor'Sarro; Moondrakkan (On Loan) - 150 Points
Librarian; Mastery 2, Bike - 125 Points
Bikes (x4); x2 Grav-Guns, Grav Pistol, Attack Bike, Melta; 184 Points
Bikes (x4); Grav-Gun, Melta-Gun, Grav Pistol, Attack Bike, Melta; 179 Points
Bikes (x4); Grav-Gun, Melta-Gun, Grav Pistol, Attack Bike, Melta; 179 Points
Bikes (x4); x2 Grav-Guns, Grav Pistol, Attack Bike, Melta; 184 Points
Scouts (x5), x5 Sniper Rifles, x5 Camo Cloaks; 75 points
Scouts (x10), x1 Missile Launcher, x9 Sniper Rifles, x10 Camo Cloaks; 154 points
Stormtalon; Skyhammer Missile Launcher; 125 Points
Stormtalon; Skyhammer Missile Launcher; 125 Points
Thunderfire Cannon - 100 Points
Thunderfire Cannon - 100 Points
Thunderfire Cannon - 100 Points

First thoughts when I look at your list is that it is a LOT of grav weapons. I know bikes have bolters built in which will help against kroot and guard models but I think you may hit some issues with demons, and you're sinking a LOT of points on grav pistols which could be used on bodies. You have good melta coverage for anti-vehicle but I'd look at maybe swapping out some grav weapons for plasma (probably in your grav/melta squads) just so things like Chaos Spawn and nurgle demons lose out a bit on their high toughness ratings and reliance on invul saves. I'd probably drop the librarian as well unless you've got a known issue where you'll need psychic defense since most models in the current meta use powers for buffs rather than damage/debuff (unless you have Tzeentch around, denying flickering fire is fun).

Thunderfire cannons are really good but you'll be paying for 3 techmarines in their cost when you've only really got 2 units to hold terrain (combat squadding scouts is iffy, a flame weapon can kill 5 of them too easily). I'd probably cash your libby and a cannon in for a vindicator to hit hard targets and to potentially ID bikes/juggalords. Scouts are good because if you have an terrain higher than 3 inches it still gives you a model to capture/hold it (don't forget bikes CANNOT go up levels in buildings, plan your shooting accordingly).

As it stands now I'd have to evaluate as follows:

Pros
- Mobile
- Survivable
- Good anti-vehicle/AP 2 coverage
- Good Troop saturation

Cons
- Potential issues with low armor hordes with invul/cover boosters)
- Low Model Count
- Vulnerable to low AP fire concentration
- Vulnerable to poison weapons

The most problematic builds I see this facing is:
Nurgle Demons - High T low Armor with invul means these demons are ignoring your Grav and bolters have a harder time making up the slack. T6 spawn will tie your bikes up if caught (and there's a good chance of that) and the beasts can really hurt.

Farsight Bomb - The farsight bomb is meant to be a unit to surgically remove units on an alpha strike. It's fairly gimmicky for most lists with the expansion of larger infantry blobs over MSU in boxes but MSU bikes look to loose 2-3 squads depending on position/spacing. Plasma heavy crisis will also cause the same problem and the bomb can cover a surprisingly large area for board control. The Vindicator is useful for area denial and potential cleanup against this list. Thunderfires CAN help but T4/3+/2W suits are still resilient enough to shrug off a good portion of that firepower (4-5 hits per shot, 4+ to wound, 3+ save means roughly 1 suit per cannon by quick math-hammering).

Chaos - Triple drakes will hurt but that's like saying "water is wet" by this point. Chaos hounds with a Juggalord/Nurgle bikelord also make picking of the assault threat much more difficult.

Eldar - Serpents will punish your scouts/cannons fairly quickly but grav really shuts them down with lucky rolls (current rulings dictate 2 6's will kill a serpent). Don't forget that if you do immobilize the tank it looses Jink against any further units that turn. In the long run I'd give this a fairly even matchup and I'd be interested in seeing it play out. The biggest variable is if his farseers get their powers or not.

All in all I think it's a good start to a list but I'd look at adding bodies where I could. The Librarian may be fluffy but without divination he really doesn't add much to the list (Telepathy MAY help with a few models (i.e. riptides) but plas/grav does nearly as well and without the risk of psychic tests/deny the witch).