Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

[Jormengand]

I don't mind failing. It's a game about dice. It's going to happen.
What I mind is negative resultss for something that's out of my control.

That's actually one of the things I liked about fantasy magic. I roll a double six. I blow up? Sure. But you can't actually stop me from dreaded thirteenth'ing your unit, and there's a chance that my miscast will hit you. There's good and there's bad.

Perils? Not a chance.

[lord_khaine]

Your best bet now is the Jet Council. Everything in the Marine book can now to toe-to-toe with Eldar like a good 6th Ed. Codex should be able to. The only thing that Marines actually 'lost' was Null Zone. Marines have all the tools to smash Eldar in the face if they wanted to. However, right now, everyone is still transitioning from their 5th Edition armies and/or haven't bought all the new kits that they need to beat Eldar...So, you've got maybe a month? The other thing is, that you just can't field all the tools you need, but, maybe with Marines' ability to Ally with themselves, maybe they'll have enough FOC Slots to manage it, depending on points.

Ahh bugger, i should have predicted it would go as this.
Still, since we normaly dont play much above 1500 points, then i doubt they will be able to do that.
But is jetbike council really that good? Have you seen it in action?

The other thing also, is that with Bolster Defences, the only way Eldar can shift a Marine unit off of an objective is with Divination and Ignores Cover, but, getting that power is random and therefore sad face.

What about close combat units, D-scythes or nearly enough dakka, shouldnt that do the trick?

Anyway, looking forward to the rest of your analysis, so i can try and plan against what will most likely be the most popular builds.

[Timberwolf]

Probably for the same reason they added random Charge lengths. Randumb is fun! The game is never the same twice! Great, right? How fun is that?

Or, people like WHFB Magic. So, copy that, right? Except let's forget to make ~75% of the Powers any good, and also let's forget that the broken spells in WHFB ruin the game and make Fantasy unfun, but we'll copy it anyway!

I'd rather pay points for a guaranteed Power. Which is why Buff Commanders are so amazingly good. You want Ignores Cover? You can have it. You want re-rolls To Hit? You can have it. Barring very certain situations, those are the two best Divination Powers and Tau can just have them for 30 Points and don't need to worry about Perils.

I entirely agree about this, randomness of powers means that people can't really try to build around powers with anything and therefore have a plan, removing a lot of thinking from the game. However, that isn't what gets me the most about the 6th ed rules.What's the worst bit of that for me is there is absolutely nothing you can do about the buffing (aka the best) powers. If it all goes swimmingly for your opponent, that's a T9, S9 Eternal Warrior flying Hive Tyrant that's grinning smugly at you, GK's are free to stack up Hammerhand and you just have to grin and like it, that Chaos Sorceror is invisible and you either bring a Rune Priest or smile etc etc. At least in Fantasy, everyone can dispell anything, even the Dwarves who I believe have no other magical element.

If they were going to copy Fantasy, they should have copied it wholesale, making it a separate phase of the game and letting everyone get in there, at least to dispell. Sure it'd add to game length but the magic system itself, the dice rolling bit, for Fantasy's not bad, barring the spells themselves that not being a fantasy player I can't comment on. There's elements of choice about it - do I burn my dispell dice on this or not ? - and everyone gets a chance. I'd actually quite like to see that rather than the half hearted Psyker rules we have now.

[Rakaydos]

Just played my puppies vs a Dark Angel player at 1850.

I made a couple serious play errors- such as trying to make a 5" charge against someone who has a special objective that halved my charge range, leaving my deathstar exposed for an extra turn- but because my vendettas were taking so long to come in, my scoring units were entirely unharmed when my survivors pushed his scoring units off one of his home objectives.

My opponent had to leave on the bottom of turn 3, but he still had bikes that were a potential threat to my scoring, as well as a few other units I needed to tidy up- because of my play error on turn two (the bad charge when there was a closer target to charge instead) the game was still up in the air, but I am confident my list would have won otherwise.

[Renegade Paladin]

So it turns out that when Space Marines have to advance at a Guard gun line over a table larger than standard 6'x4', stuff actually dies. I wound up playing the 6000 point list against 3k of Chaos and 3k of Blood Angels since some people were no-shows. We got to the bottom of turn 2 (spent too long waiting for the no shows) and the Blood Angels are in range to assault, but I have first turn, so I'll see what else I can wipe out at the top of 3 before they do when we continue next week. The best part is that I still have an On My Coordinates! asset in reserve.

[Rakaydos]

So it turns out that when Space Marines have to advance at a Guard gun line over a table larger than standard 6'x4', stuff actually dies. I wound up playing the 6000 point list against 3k of Chaos and 3k of Blood Angels since some people were no-shows. We got to the bottom of turn 2 (spent too long waiting for the no shows) and the Blood Angels are in range to assault, but I have first turn, so I'll see what else I can wipe out at the top of 3 before they do when we continue next week. The best part is that I still have an On My Coordinates! asset in reserve.

Yea, IG do gunlines better than anyone else. (Even Tau)
Battle cannons rip apart basically everything, Shadowswords are OP, and autocannon and Lascannon spam ruins other people's days.

[Renegade Paladin]

Only one battle cannon, and they destroyed my Demolisher before it got to do anything (which is only fair, since I did the same thing to three Vindicators), but the Baneblade and Stormblade have had their say. My Baneblade presently has a Librarian Dreadnought up in its grill courtesy of the damnable Dreadnought drop pod (we ruled that giving it the Assault Vehicle rule and rendering it inoperative in the same paragraph was stupid, a decision I'm regretting), but still has four hull points left despite taking a glance and four penetrating hits in one go. The Blood Angels player was seriously annoyed until it was pointed out to him that the Dreadnought is 175 points or so and the Baneblade is over 700. And now that poor Dreadnought is right in the middle of a huge nest of lascannons.

Edit: Oh, and the ratlings infiltrated into open ground near the enemy board edge, spent a good two turns sniping things before they dispatched a squad of Plague Marines to shoot at them, and then proceeded to make all their cover saves like a boss, holding an objective in their deployment zone in the process.

Edit2: And at the top of the next turn, this guy is going to turn up behind their Devastator line.

[shadow_archmagi]

Out of curiosity, how does everyone feel about the overall balance of the tabletop? On a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being a game like Paper Scissors Lascannon, and 10 being a game like Starcraft, which is widely hailed as one of the most balanced asymmetrical warfare games ever, where does tabletop rank?

[Eldan]

Not very high. Both between codices (poor, poor Tyranids) and within. Almost every codex has a unit or two that is just pointless compared to something else within the same codex that does almost the same thing, but better.

[Cheesegear]

Out of curiosity, how does everyone feel about the overall balance of the tabletop?

As more and more 6th Edition Codecies come out, the more balanced it's becoming, especially if you don't have an updated Codex you can spruke out for Allies. Only thing that really hurts the game right now is Psychic self-buffs and several other factors conspiring to make Assault-based armies unplayable.

I'd say right now it's about at 5, maybe 6. Only one unit in the game is truly broken - StarScreamer. Other than that, I like it. I think with the new Marine book out, Tau and Eldar don't just roflstomp the meta anymore. So, yeah. Not balanced. But not exactly unplayable.

Tier 1; Daemons, Eldar, Necrons, Marines, Wolves, Tau
Tier 2; Chaos Marines, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, Imperial Guard, Tyranids
Tier 3; Blood Angels, Orks
Tier 4; Dark Eldar, Sisters of Battle

[Voidhawk]

Tier 1; Daemons, Eldar, Necrons, Marines, Wolves, Tau
Tier 2; Chaos Marines, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, Imperial Guard, Tyranids
Tier 3; Blood Angels, Orks
Tier 4; Dark Eldar, Sisters of Battle

What is the difference in success rate like between tiers, in your opinion?

If a Tier 4 army fights a Tier 3, is it more or less likely to lose than a Tier 3 facing a Tier 2?

[Provengreil]

As more and more 6th Edition Codecies come out, the more balanced it's becoming, especially if you don't have an updated Codex you can spruke out for Allies. Only thing that really hurts the game right now is Psychic self-buffs and several other factors conspiring to make Assault-based armies unplayable.

I'd say right now it's about at 5, maybe 6. Only one unit in the game is truly broken - StarScreamer. Other than that, I like it. I think with the new Marine book out, Tau and Eldar don't just roflstomp the meta anymore. So, yeah. Not balanced. But not exactly unplayable.

Tier 1; Daemons, Eldar, Necrons, Marines, Wolves, Tau
Tier 2; Chaos Marines, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, Imperial Guard, Tyranids
Tier 3; Blood Angels, Orks
Tier 4; Dark Eldar, Sisters of Battle

Another question, if you don't mind. does this take into account the kind of lists that DON'T involve taking the best stuff in the codex and just kinda spamming it? As one might see outside of tournament play, just for someone who wants to try something different with his army? or do your tiers more or less restrict themselves to consideration of the top few list opportunities?

[13_CBS]

Tier 1; Daemons, Eldar, Necrons, Marines, Wolves, Tau
Tier 2; Chaos Marines, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, Imperial Guard, Tyranids
Tier 3; Blood Angels, Orks
Tier 4; Dark Eldar, Sisters of Battle

*Sigh* Dark Eldar players just aren't ever going to catch a break, will they?

[Cheesegear]

If a Tier 4 army fights a Tier 3, is it more or less likely to lose than a Tier 3 facing a Tier 2?

Remember your D&D Tiers? It isn't about what army is strictly more powerful (except that it kind of is, if you look closely), it's about how many threats/obstacles does your Codex have the tools to deal with, and, how many of those tools can you field at the same time.

i.e; Bike unit with Grav-Guns. The Grav-Guns waste enemy armour, and do actually threaten Wave Serpents. Not facing enemy armour? You've got Twin-Linked Boltguns!

Another question, if you don't mind. does this take into account the kind of lists that DON'T involve taking the best stuff in the codex and just kinda spamming it?

Yes. It's about how many bad units there are in the Codex, and/or whether or not you can still make a functional list without the good units. Is Fateweaver in every single competitive Daemons list there is? Yes. Do you need Fateweaver to win? No.

[Provengreil]

Yes. It's about how many bad units there are in the Codex, and/or whether or not you can still make a functional list without the good units. Is Fateweaver in every single competitive Daemons list there is? Yes. Do you need Fateweaver to win? No.

Fair enough. I've had plenty of fun with lists made by picking whatever models were in arms reach at the moment, and won with them too sometimes.

[Eldan]

Why do you rate 'nids so highly? I have no pratical experience with or against them, but the internet is full of people moaning about how bad they are and having read the codex, I don't see a lot of good in there.

[Cheesegear]

*Sigh* Dark Eldar players just aren't ever going to catch a break, will they?

What are you even talking about? In 5th they were one of the best armies around. In 6th, Dark Eldar have been going up and up and up as 'the meta-buster' with their ability to obliterate Monstrous Creatures, Land Raiders and hordes. But, now Marines are back in the game, Dark Eldar can't deal with them at all, the meta has shifted and Dark Eldar are back on the bottom.
They've caught a lot of breaks. Unfortunately, their Codex is so flimsy that it's always going to get tackled.

Why do you rate 'nids so highly?

Biomancy spam? Although, maybe with Marines out, I'm probably going to drop them to T3. However, there's a new Codex coming in, I want to say January. But with Christmas right around the corner, it's more likely a November release.

[hamishspence]

Nids have the problems of lack of allies, lack of fortifications, and lack of Interceptor, among others. They also haven't much in the way of high-Str weaponry that can hit fliers.

[Volthawk]

Nids do also have their thing of flooding the board with guants (something which makes me thankful I only play nids on Vassal, because the prospect of all those guants IRL...). I remember it working quite well against you, actually, Eldan.

[Jormengand]

Nids do also have their thing of flooding the board with guants (something which makes me thankful I only play nids on Vassal, because the prospect of all those guants IRL...). I remember it working quite well against you, actually, Eldan.

The problem with that being that as soon as there are a couple of Vulture Gunships with Multiple Rocket Pods flying about, there's very little you can do.

[13_CBS]

What are you even talking about? In 5th they were one of the best armies around. In 6th, Dark Eldar have been going up and up and up as 'the meta-buster' with their ability to obliterate Monstrous Creatures, Land Raiders and hordes. But, now Marines are back in the game, Dark Eldar can't deal with them at all, the meta has shifted and Dark Eldar are back on the bottom.

Huh. For some reason, I thought Dark Eldar were having trouble as soon as the 6th Edition came out and they became unable to assault right after disembarking. I must have misread a past "Cheesegear's black & white 40k comments" or something.

That said, didn't Dark Eldar players get shafted for a long time when they didn't get a proper codex update between 3rd and late 5th? It doesn't seem like Dark Eldar players got a very long time to feel awesome before they got shoved down to bottom tier.

[Provengreil]

Huh. For some reason, I thought Dark Eldar were having trouble as soon as the 6th Edition came out and they became unable to assault right after disembarking. I must have misread a past "Cheesegear's black & white 40k comments" or something.

That said, didn't Dark Eldar players get shafted for a long time when they didn't get a proper codex update between 3rd and late 5th? It doesn't seem like Dark Eldar players got a very long time to feel awesome before they got shoved down to bottom tier.

In my (limited) experience with the DE, they're actually quite powerful and slippery, but the moment you draw a proper bead on them they're wet paper. 6th ed just kinda made that a lot easier to do, between overwatch, fliers, high strength large blasts, new charge from wrecks/reserves rules, etc.

[Cheesegear]

Huh. For some reason, I thought Dark Eldar were having trouble as soon as the 6th Edition came out and they became unable to assault right after disembarking.

No. '5th Edition' style Dark Eldar army of Wyches in Transports was shafted. But do you know what got way better? Warriors and Splinter weapons and Lance spam.

You can't keep playing the same army forever when new Codecies come out. It's like when all the Cron-Air players said that Necrons were terrible when Tau came out. No. Necrons are still great. It's Cron-Air that's bad. Change your army to fit the meta. Oh, look. You're Necrons. You can totally do that because you don't have too many bad units in your Codex.

[Timberwolf]

Huh. For some reason, I thought Dark Eldar were having trouble as soon as the 6th Edition came out and they became unable to assault right after disembarking. I must have misread a past "Cheesegear's black & white 40k comments" or something.

In the Semi Final of my club's recent knock out cup, I drew a Dark Eldar player. I'd not really got much experience with them, I'd run into one player who did very kindly and discreetly put my head in a bag before handing it back to me. However, that meant little to me now as a: I'd just started playing again at that point and b: it was 5th ed.

This time it was the weirdest, oddest game I've ever played. It was also the best, no doubt about it. He just had so much stuff. If it had have been an objectives game, I'd have been stuffed. It was a nice balanced list he had, lots of warriors, lances and splinter weapons but also a couple of units of Wyches and a unit of Incubi rolling with his Archon as well as some Reavers. As it was I won by a Drop Pod. I just couldn't kill enough stuff quickly enough (save for my Rune Priest's moment of utter glory using Living Lightning to blast the Archon and remaining 2 Incubi while running like hell from them). Dark Eldar are by no means terrible, they have the tools and if they horde up, which, for the dying race of Eldar, they are strangely capable of doing as their vehicles are cheap, they just fire so many shots.

[lord_khaine]

Unfortunately for the rest of the galaxy, then Dark Eldars are not dying nearly fast enough.

And since they use superior Eldar technology combined with Dark Eldar morals, then it means there will allways be more warriors ready.

[Grim Portent]

From what I recall Dark Eldar are supposed to be numerous. It's just the Trueborn that are rare. Most are removed from the womb after insemination and grown to maturity in vitae wombs and a lot are vat grown by haemonculi. Big armies of kabalites makes perfect sense.

[Cheesegear]

What I'm taking to the next tournament, as well as the required 'page of fluff'.

Forge the Narrative!

Spoiler

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"You know why you're here, don't you?" asked Sixth Captain Brage.
"Because I disobeyed orders." spoke Codicier Ultionis, on his knees.
Captain Brage held a sword towards Ultionis' neck. Brage wore a simple robe, leaving his arms bare. Tattooed and branded on his right arm - his sword-arm - were the names and Chapter badges of several other Space Marines, under the icon of the Inquisition. All of the Space Marines who died under his Vigil during his service to the Deathwatch. Those Marines who would be Brage's brothers more than any Imperial Fist ever would.
"You're here," said Brage "because First Captain Lysander refuses to have you under his command. Which means, all the other Captains wont take you. Except me." Brage smirked. "Get up."
Ultionis rose from his knees. One of Brage's Command Squad passed Ultionis a sword. Ultionis looked at the Sixth Company Command. 5 Space Marines stood in robes, in the 6th Company of Imperial Fists, there was no Company Champion - if anyone was going to fight for Captain Brage, it would be himself. The sixth Company Chaplain stood directly behind Ultionis, in full Power Armour.
"As far as I'm concerned, if Captain Lysander doesn't want you, then I do. You've got the Crux Terminatus, so I know you can fight." Brage dropped into a fighter's stance while Ultionis did the same. "But, what I want to know is, how well..." Brage lunged at Ultionis, his sword flicking in and out. It was only Ultionis' preternatural Psyker-sense that allowed him to keep up."
"I fought the Eldar warrior-witches of Biel-Tan." Brage went high. Ultionis parried. "They're a lot faster than you are, and getting hit by their Witchblades is like getting run over by a Rhino." Brage sidestepped and kicked Ultionis in the knee. Ultionis barely felt the pain, but it knocked him sideways.
Brage continued "You've got the Crux Terminatus. I've read your after-action reports." Brage lunged in again, three swift strikes, Ultionis blocked them all.
"Why aren't you an Epistolary?" asked Brage, backing off.
"Because I don't want to be." said Ultionis, searching Brage for weakness.
"You a Templar?" said Brage. Bluntly.
"You think I hate myself so much that I would limit my own psychic growth!?" Ultionis charged Brage. Brage blocked Ultionis' strikes and circled in the ring of his Command Staff.
"I think you're holding back." Brage slammed the flat of his blade against the side of Ultionis' head. It was so fast.
"The Sixth Company is brutal. I've got my Marines chomping at the bit to make it to the Battle Companies. It's my job to tell them that they're not good enough. It's my job to tell them to be better." Brage swung at Ultionis' head again. "Here in the Sixth, we do our best. All the time. Always." spoke the Master of Rites.
"Because, when time comes. The 6th Company will be called. And do you know why the Sixth is called?" Brage threw his sword at Ultionis. Ultionis deflected the projectile. Brage no longer had a weapon. Ultionis was going to win this duel in a matter of seconds. "The sixth is called because the excrement is in the warp drive."
Brage ran at Ultionis. Ultionis had two choices, lunge low, or lunge high. His psyker senses told him that Brage would go low. But, surely Brage would know that? Ultionis would need to lunge high. But Brage would know he knew. Brage was the Master of Rites. The Rites of Battle. He knew battle better than anyone in the Chapter. Surely he would...Time was up. Ultionis went low, to stab Brage in the leg.
The Captain jumped over Ultionis' sword in a flying tackle. Brage headbutted Ultionis. While Ultionis could ignore the pain, he could not ignore physics, and the both of them went to the ground, Brage in full-mount. Brage rabbit-punched Ultionis in the chest, and then again under his left armpit. Ultionis gasped as both of his hearts skipped a beat, and then Brage went to punch Ultionis in the head, but stopped.
"A Black Dragon taught me that move." said Brage. Ultionis mentally noted a Black Dragon insignia on his right arm, a fallen Marine. Had he been the one to teach Brage? "If I'd had arm-blades, you'd be dead. If I was a Carcharodon, you wouldn't have a jugular as their instinct would just be to tear your throat out, and you'd be dead. But, I'm an Imperial Fist, so I would just have to keep punching you in the head until your brain shut down."
Ultionis' eyes widened. That half-second when his hearts stopped beating could have gotten him killed in battle. And Brage had done it without a weapon.
"You're in the Sixth now." Brage looked at Ultionis. "You're going to take the test for Epistolary, and you're going to be the best Psyker you can be." said Brage. Ultionis nodded from his prone position on the floor. "Further, you have the Crux Terminatus. You are not better than me. I am your Captain. You will never, ever, ever disobey my orders."
Brage punched Ultionis in the head, and then everything went black.

Captain Brage is named after an NPC you have to kill in Baldur's Gate, he has a Cursed Sword of Berserking. 6th Company is on Bikes. The 6th Company Captain is also The Master of Rites (of Battle). So, he'd better be good at fighting, because when you think about what Reserve Companies are for, **** gets real. Both on and off the battlefield.

Army List

Spoiler

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Imperial Fists
[Captain] Brage; Storm Shield, Bike, Burning Blade - 180 Points
Command Squad; Apothecary, Bikes, x4 Storm Shields, x4 Grav-Guns - 250 Points

Scout Squad (x10) - 110 Points
Scout Squad (x10) - 110 Points
Bike Squad (x4); x2 Grav-Guns, Vet + Attack Bike; Multi-Melta - 179 Points
Bike Squad (x4); x2 Grav-Guns, Vet + Attack Bike; Multi-Melta - 179 Points

Stormtalon; Twin-Linked Lascannon - 140 Points
Stormtalon; Twin-Linked Lascannon - 140 Points

Thunderfire Cannon - 100 Points
Thunderfire Cannon - 100 Points

Dark Angels
[Librarian] Epistolary Ultionis; Force Stave, Mastery Level 2, Auspex, Bike - 125 Points
Scout Squad (x10); Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher - 135 Points

Total; 1748 Points

For an extra 10 Points, a Dark Angels Librarian gives Fearless and Preferred Enemy (Chaos Marines) (which Imperial Fists should have anyway), and also has access to Divination, as well as Telepathy and Telekinesis anyway. The Dark Angel Rifle-Scouts cost 1-point extra than Codex Marines, but they get Rifles for free, so it evens out, especially if they aren't using Boltguns because then what's the point of being Imperial Fists?

[lord_khaine]

Nice bit of narative, amazing how far someone can fall down into disgrace, after having fried the swarmlord

Also, that certainly looks like a mean list, will look forward to hear about how it makes it though the tournament.

[Grim Portent]

Preferred Enemy (Chaos Marines) (which Imperial Fists should have anyway

I could see Imperial Fists with Hatred (Iron Warriors) but of course there's no real distinction in the chaos codex between a traitor legion and huron blackhearts scout jamboree

I like the list, not a huge number of models but then I don't usually play below 2000 points so any army below that looks small to me. I see a lot of Grav-Guns in there but I haven't fought any yet myself so I can't judge them, although I'd expect to see more plasma in one of your lists.

I liked the snippet of fluff. It was a nice little portrayal of inter HQ dynamics in your army.

[Cheesegear]

So, here's a thing...

Command Squad - 250 Points
Apothecary, Bikes, x4 Storm Shields, x4 Grav-Guns

Ravenwing Command Squad (x5) - 230 Points
Ravenwing Grenade Launcher, Apothecary

The Ravenwing cost 20 Points less, and lose their 3+ Invulnerable. But gain Stubborn, Scouts, Skilled Rider and Hit & Run. They swap Grav-Guns for Twin-Linked Plasma Talons.

Is it worth it? With that 20 extra points I could pick up some extra wargear, or give the Scout units a Veteran Sergeant for the extra Scoring Leadership. Poop. I honestly don't know what to do, here. If I just swapped to White Scars and picked up Kor'Sarro, it'd be easy. But I don't have the amount of Bikes I need to make that work.