Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

[shadow_archmagi]

Army List

Spoiler

Show

Imperial Fists
[Captain] Brage; Storm Shield, Bike, Burning Blade - 180 Points
Command Squad; Apothecary, x4 Storm Shields, x4 Grav-Guns - 250 Points

Scout Squad (x10) - 110 Points
Scout Squad (x10) - 110 Points
Bike Squad (x4); x2 Grav-Guns, Vet + Attack Bike; Multi-Melta - 179 Points
Bike Squad (x4); x2 Grav-Guns, Vet + Attack Bike; Multi-Melta - 179 Points

Stormtalon; Twin-Linked Lascannon - 140 Points
Stormtalon; Twin-Linked Lascannon - 140 Points

Thunderfire Cannon - 100 Points
Thunderfire Cannon - 100 Points

Dark Angels
[Librarian] Epistolary Ultionis; Force Stave, Mastery Level 2, Auspex, Bike - 125 Points
Scout Squad (x10); Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher - 135 Points

Total; 1748 Points

What *do* gravity guns do these days, anyway? Also, is your entire army (except for the scouts) on bikes? I guess that gives you three scoring units who can mosey over to command points while the bike armada zips towards the enemy and ties them up.

[Cheesegear]

What *do* gravity guns do these days, anyway?

Wound on your target's Armour Save. Salvo 2/3, AP2. When you Hit a Vehicle, instead of rolling to Penetrate, roll a die. On a '6' you Immobilise the Vehicle and they lose a Hull Point. This does not count as a Glancing Hit.

i.e; A Fire Warrior has a 4+ Save, a Grav-Gun will wound on a 4+. Kroot have 6+ Saves. Will wound on 6s.

Obviously a Grav-Gun deals with high-armour units. But, Bikes also have Boltguns to deal with low-armoured units. Bikes are also Relentless making Salvo weapons extremely good.

Also, is your entire army (except for the scouts) on bikes? I guess that gives you three scoring units

The Bikes are also Scoring.

[Grim Portent]

Wound on your target's Armour Save. Salvo 2/3, AP2. When you Hit a Vehicle, instead of rolling to Penetrate, roll a die. On a '6' you Immobilise the Vehicle and they lose a Hull Point. This does not count as a Glancing Hit.

i.e; A Fire Warrior has a 4+ Save, a Grav-Gun will wound on a 4+. Kroot have 6+ Saves. Will wound on 6s.

Doesn't that mean that Daemons are pretty much immune to Grav-Guns?

[shadow_archmagi]

Wound on your target's Armour Save. Salvo 2/3, AP2. When you Hit a Vehicle, instead of rolling to Penetrate, roll a die. On a '6' you Immobilise the Vehicle and they lose a Hull Point. This does not count as a Glancing Hit.

i.e; A Fire Warrior has a 4+ Save, a Grav-Gun will wound on a 4+. Kroot have 6+ Saves. Will wound on 6s.

Obviously a Grav-Gun deals with high-armour units. But, Bikes also have Boltguns to deal with low-armoured units. Bikes are also Relentless making Salvo weapons extremely good.

Cripes. The ultimate way to say no to terminators.

[Wraith]

I honestly don't know what to do, here.

I would tentatively suggest keeping the Codex Marines version, simply down to the Grav-guns. I strongly suspect that any Marine Player who does well at any Tournament in this short time frame, will do so by abusing his opponents' lack of familiarity with what his new units do.

Dark Angels has been and gone from the Warhammer 'catwalk' of fashionable armies, and everyone knows what Plasma Guns are and how to beat them. "Oh no! You're ignoring my 2+ saves! Oh well, here's a Land Raider/big pile of cover saves/fast moving bikes for you to deal with, have fun."

The Marines book, on the other hand, is just about a month old, and I'd be very surprised if most players had yet picked up the habit of dealing with them effectively. "Oh no! You're ignoring my 2+ saves! Oh well, here's a Land Raid-OH GOD WHAT'S HAPPENING WHY ARE YOU SO MEAN TO ME!?!"

On an unrelated note, thank you to Closet Skeleton for your comments on my Black Templars list.
I don't like some of them, but that's because they're hard truths to hear about my 'pet' list, and I'm stubborn like that. I still admit that they're all really good, flavourful ones that make a lot of sense.

I think, ultimately, I will drop the Emperor's Champion to make room for Neophytes and a few Power Weapons - I'd rather have an 'okay' Sword Brother in each unit, than one 'good' Champion in just one of them, I think. Will probably turn the Predator turrets back into Autocannons too - I like my tanks too much to give them up completely, and Twin Linked gives me something to hope for against flyers, I guess.

And since you asked, yes - Most characters I can see who can take Terminator Armour as an option, can still take Special Issue wargear and thus are allowed to carry Melta Bombs.

[Cheesegear]

Doesn't that mean that Daemons are pretty much immune to Grav-Guns?

Pretty much. A Grav-Gun doesn't wound on less than a 6.

I strongly suspect that any Marine Player who does well at any Tournament in this short time frame, will do so by abusing his opponents' lack of familiarity with what his new units do.

I guess that Plasma Guns can deal with high-Tougness, Low Armour Save units, and Grav-Guns can't.

Like what?

Daemons.

"Oh no! You're ignoring my 2+ saves! Oh well, here's a Land Raider/big pile of cover saves/fast moving bikes for you to deal with, have fun."

If you've got Cover Saves, Grav-Guns are still roughly the same as Plasma. Except Grav-Guns don't kill you...
Uhh...Well, looks like I just answered my own dumb question.

I guess I would be shooting for Ignores Cover on the Divination table, like always.

But, the big draw for the Ravenwing Squad is H&R and Scout.
"But Cheese, just play Kor'Sarro you idiot." Ah...But an all-Bike army can't climb stairs.

[Wraith]

I guess that Plasma Guns can deal with high-Tougness, Low Armour Save units, and Grav-Guns can't.

Like what?

Daemons.

If only you had an abundance of some kind of Rifle, as if the sort potentially used by a Sniper, to deal with that kind of threat.....

...Ah, what a sweet pipe dream. Such a thing actually happening would just be outrageous crazy-talk.

Though if you (somehow! ) place highly in this Tournament, I am *totally* claiming it as my own psuedo-victory for the purposes of a battle report.

[Cheesegear]

If only you had an abundance of some kind of Rifle, as if the sort potentially used by a Sniper, to deal with that kind of threat...

*slow clap* ...Well played. You win this round Wraith. I like how I can't even remember my own army.

Anyway...Bikes and Scouts is back!

[Wraith]

We'll call it even, for the whole "No one but Captain Shrike has Fleet" fiasco, I think.

[Jormengand]

Cripes. The ultimate way to say no to terminators.

...Is a plasma gun. Because the thing about a plasma gun is that it also says no to a 5+ armoured imperial guardsman or 6+ armoured ork, tyranid, kroot, and so on. Or to an AV12 or below vehicle. Oh, and from further away. Very rarely will you actually get the extra shot from the salvo, and models with 3+ saves do not have the greatest tendency to care that there is a less than 0.3 chance of killing yourself even if you somehow shoot six times in one game.

Trust me, if you're facing a line of guardsmen you will far prefer the plasma guns.

[Forrestfire]

Out of curiosity, how are you getting grav-guns on the bike command squad? My book says they can only get combi-gravs or grav pistols as best.

[bluntpencil]

Out of curiosity, how are you getting grav-guns on the bike command squad? My book says they can only get combi-gravs or grav pistols as best.

Errata gives Command Squads special weapons.

[Forrestfire]

Ah, good to know.

... So the bike command squad is basically a centurion squad that trades rerolls to wound for mobility and not being instagibbed by plasma and melta? Neat.

[bluntpencil]

...Is a plasma gun. Because the thing about a plasma gun is that it also says no to a 5+ armoured imperial guardsman or 6+ armoured ork, tyranid, kroot, and so on. Or to an AV12 or below vehicle. Oh, and from further away. Very rarely will you actually get the extra shot from the salvo, and models with 3+ saves do not have the greatest tendency to care that there is a less than 0.3 chance of killing yourself even if you somehow shoot six times in one game.

Trust me, if you're facing a line of guardsmen you will far prefer the plasma guns.

On Bikes, you will always get the Salvo off. Also, you have twin-linked bolters to kill guardsmen. Bikers with Grav Guns are great all rounders.

[Jormengand]

On Bikes, you will always get the Salvo off. Also, you have twin-linked bolters to kill guardsmen. Bikers with Grav Guns are great all rounders.

On bikes, just about fair enough (though I'd still prefer the plasma most of the time). On other things I'd never take them.

[Squark]

Grav Guns are kind of a silver bullet at the moment. They terrify Riptides, Tervigons, and Wraith-bone constructs, and the wonkiness of how they effect vehicles (A plasmagun will strip one hull point from a skimmer on a 5-6 if you get through the jink save. Grav gun? 3 shots at 18 inches, and a single six automatically immobilizes and strips a hull point, since, at least for another three weeks, the strict RAW reading is that vehicles don't get cover or invulnerable saves against the shot since it's not a glancing or penetrating hit) makes them very effective against some of the current bogeymen. They're much less functional against kroot, guardsmen, or demons... But you've got inexpensive boltguns, Thunderfire cannons, and sniper rifles for those. And 40k has generally trended towards running a few specialized units compared to one general-purpose unit.

[Cheesegear]

On bikes, just about fair enough (though I'd still prefer the plasma most of the time). On other things I'd never take them.

Yes. Exactly. Fortunately, I'm not taking anything not-Bikes, am I?

[lord_khaine]

Grav Guns are kind of a silver bullet at the moment. They terrify Riptides, Tervigons, and Wraith-bone constructs, and the wonkiness of how they effect vehicles (A plasmagun will strip one hull point from a skimmer on a 5-6 if you get through the jink save. Grav gun? 3 shots at 18 inches, and a single six automatically immobilizes and strips a hull point, since, at least for another three weeks, the strict RAW reading is that vehicles don't get cover or invulnerable saves against the shot since it's not a glancing or penetrating hit) makes them very effective against some of the current bogeymen. They're much less functional against kroot, guardsmen, or demons... But you've got inexpensive boltguns, Thunderfire cannons, and sniper rifles for those. And 40k has generally trended towards running a few specialized units compared to one general-purpose unit.

I certainly think they are insanely annoying, putting a large hole though my plans on beginning to use my wraithlords again, now that the poison danger is somewhat over.

[Cheesegear]

Grav Guns are kind of a silver bullet at the moment. They terrify Riptides, Tervigons, and Wraith-bone constructs

This. Exactly this. And nothing else.

Plasma Guns are wounding Wraithknights on 5s. And those Wraithknights are chucking out S10 shots that are going to kill Bikes dead. Grav-Guns will wound on 3s with more shots. I know which one I need.

Plasma Guns are wounding Riptides on 3s. Riptides with Ion Accelerators are killing half a Bike unit per turn, each. With two Riptides on the board (definitely a possibility), that's one dead unit per turn, before the rest of the Tau army starts shooting. Riptides need to die. Grav-Guns will wound Riptides on 2s with more shots - and against a 5-wound model, that counts!

If I want to shoot Guardsmen, I'll use Boltguns, thank you.

[lord_khaine]

So with all this annoying grav shooting (i think its going overboard to give entire units this weapon), then i guess 4+ is the new thing to have :P

Enough to protect against bolters, not quite enough to automatically get crushed by gravity.

But on a side note, does anyone think a Seer council could work on foot in a wave serpent?

[Tehnar]

But on a side note, does anyone think a Seer council could work on foot in a wave serpent?

I don't think it would work too well. The points you pay for a serpent could go into bikes with some left over. You delay your assault to turn 3 at the earliest, and you don't have the armor/cover save to soak up any wounds from shooting. Also the -1 T makes it much easier to ID the Farseer.

Foot councils could work with the last codex, with this one its either bikes or nothing.

What sort of works is a Iyaden list wraithstar. Usually wraithblades with 3-5 spiritseers and a farseer; but I would still prefer to spend the points on a jetseer council.

[Closet_Skeleton]

On an unrelated note, thank you to Closet Skeleton for your comments on my Black Templars list.
I don't like some of them, but that's because they're hard truths to hear about my 'pet' list, and I'm stubborn like that. I still admit that they're all really good, flavourful ones that make a lot of sense.

I still haven't managed to write a list for my Black Templars I've liked under 3000 points, and don't have the troops for a second detatchment to actually put everything in a list so its more like 2600 points I could actually take.

Will probably turn the Predator turrets back into Autocannons too - I like my tanks too much to give them up completely, and Twin Linked gives me something to hope for against flyers, I guess.

Predator auto-cannon isn't twin-linked, only the lascannon is. Which makes non-Annihilator Predators rediculously under gunned, but that's what happens when you don't change a Tank's armament for 6 editions but change the rules for that gun massively in the first 3 editions.

[lord_khaine]

I don't think it would work too well. The points you pay for a serpent could go into bikes with some left over. You delay your assault to turn 3 at the earliest, and you don't have the armor/cover save to soak up any wounds from shooting. Also the -1 T makes it much easier to ID the Farseer.

Foot councils could work with the last codex, with this one its either bikes or nothing.

What sort of works is a Iyaden list wraithstar. Usually wraithblades with 3-5 spiritseers and a farseer; but I would still prefer to spend the points on a jetseer council.

I guess you are right, though it is a shame, because i really liked my Seer council, and i dont like the though at all about having to do the massive converting needed for putting everyone on a bike.

Of course, i really dont like to think about what would be needed to counter SM bike spam with gravity guns either, besides either poking them down with reapers, or hoping noone else in the local club can afford to buy a bike list

[Tehnar]

I don't think it takes too much work to take down a bike list; ie you won't have to modify your normal list at all. All that is poor vs bikes are wraith units; but the most powerful, the wraithscythes hide in serpents anyway.

Grav guns do 4/9 wounds per shot on a Wraithknight/lord pre saves. To kill a wraithlord with the 5++ (or cover) you still need 19 shots, or shots from 3 bike units. The problem is at 18" bikes are in easy assault range, from the wraithknight. Wraithknights need to be vary, but their jump status allows them too keep away.

The only ones with big problems are the Wraithlords.

Bikes are vulnerable to mass high strength shooting, something eldar have plenty of. Dakkaserpents will on average shoot down 2.25 bikes.

Grav guns don't do much to eldar skimmers, on average you need 18 shots to get a singe immobilize result.

[Wraith]

I still haven't managed to write a list for my Black Templars I've liked under 3000 points.....

I think I can just about do it it for about 2300. No more helpful for a 2000pt game, admittedly, but I'm either doing something wrong or am incredibly easy to please.

Maybe I'll work on my 'Iron Hands' list (in quotes because it's just a pile of Dreadnoughts led by a MotF from before Iron Hands was a thing) while I think about it. It'll be cheap to rebuild at least, since there's no way I'm going out to buy Dread #8 any time soon....

Predator auto-cannon isn't twin-linked, only the lascannon is. Which makes non-Annihilator Predators ridiculously under gunned, but that's what happens when you don't change a Tank's armament for 6 editions but change the rules for that gun massively in the first 3 editions.

Oh goody. So not only did I buy the 5th Edition rulebook and keep trying to play with 4th Edition differences, I've now bought the 6th Edition rulebook and have regressed to using my 2nd Edition Codex: Ultramarines.

This "list writing" stuff is harder than I remember..... Although buying your HQ choices when the FoC just says "50% of your points allowance can be Characters" in an era when Terminator Librarians would give their pocket change to today's Swarmlord out of sympathy *IS* kinda fun...

[Closet_Skeleton]

Oh goody. So not only did I buy the 5th Edition rulebook and keep trying to play with 4th Edition differences, I've now bought the 6th Edition rulebook and have regressed to using my 2nd Edition Codex: Ultramarines.

Codex Ultramarines and 1st ed was a single autocannon too. Every weapon just worked pretty much completely differently and in many ways made more sense.

But a standard Predator was only 90 points (120 with twin-linked lascannon upgrade), while a standard Razorback with its twin-linked plasma gun and lascannon was 150 points, so a predator clearly wasn't actually supposed to be powerful or a main battle tank even then.

It was only the Dreadnought that carried special weapons that were better than normal ones, an annoying fact that anyone looking at the official appearance of the Dreadnought missile launcher should be able to notice that something obviously went wrong somewhere.

[Jormengand]

Of course, i really dont like to think about what would be needed to counter SM bike spam with gravity guns either, besides either poking them down with reapers, or hoping noone else in the local club can afford to buy a bike list

Or, you know, Tau fire warriors. A single droneless squad Storm of Firing will bring down an average of 3 bikers each turn, and neither of the bikers' weapons counter 4+ armoured fire warriors - though you're a little better using the grav guns just through the ignore armour and extra shot(s).

And that's if you don't have PFs sitting back and making all your FWs hit on a 2+

[shadow_archmagi]

Or, you know, Tau fire warriors. A single droneless squad Storm of Firing will bring down an average of 3 bikers each turn, and neither of the bikers' weapons counter 4+ armoured fire warriors - though you're a little better using the grav guns just through the ignore armour and extra shot(s).

And that's if you don't have PFs sitting back and making all your FWs hit on a 2+

Oh, fire warriors! Is there anything you can't do?

Ugh, I really want to put more Sniper Drone Teams into my army- Markerlights *and* snipers is just too delightful to pass up, but I also really love Hammerheads.

[Jormengand]

Oh, fire warriors! Is there anything you can't do?

Ugh, I really want to put more Sniper Drone Teams into my army- Markerlights *and* snipers is just too delightful to pass up, but I also really love Hammerheads.

If you want a full sniper team, take 3 PFs and 10 scouts with a cheapo libby (Who can do pretty funky things to your Tau using telepathy anyway) instead, all costing about the same amount, and use the heavy support slot for the hammerhead.

[Cheesegear]

Or, you know, Tau fire warriors.

How will I counter Bikes with Eldar?
Play Tau.

...Really?