Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

[Calsan]

*delurk mode* So I had a 500 point battle two weeks ago that I wanted to share here. He (my opponent) basicly plays in a campaign that can challenge neutral parties (aka me) to get more points in future battles. He is my most regular opponent and I played his Necrons a couple of times.

Space marines vs Necrons

Lists

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Space marines (me)
Ultra marine tactics

Captain Targiso 105 points
with powersword and bolter

10 marine Tactical squad 205 points
with flamer and misslelauncher
Sarge with chainsword and boltpistol
Rhino

5 Scout squad 67 points
3 x sniper and a heavy bolter
sarge with sniper rifle

Thyphoon pattern landspeeder 75 points

Attack bike with multi melta 55 points

Necrons (not sure about everything two weeks later and everything)

Necron Lord (had some equipment but not mindshackles)

8 warriors

8 warriors

Annihilation Barge

2 Wraiths

Battle report

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So we played on a 4 feet x 4 feet board with 2 forests and a battlescape on one side and 3 buildings on the other and a aquilla in the middle, a few walls in the middle to finish it of.

Dawn of war deployment and the scouring mission so six objectives and fast attack scores.

So two objectives where near my side in the buildings and two in the forests on the other. 1 was in the middle on the aquilla and 1 was in a building in the middle (which was mostly ignored during the battle) My warlord rolled the champion of humanity warlord trait

So He deployed first with his warriors on the objectives and the lord attached to the wraights in the middle, and the annihilation barge on the right side
I deployed my scouts in the building just of the left of the middle, the tactical squad was combat squadded 1 squad with the captain and flamer and sarge in the rhino in the middle between the buildings. And the other on the left side with the missle launcher. The bike and the Landspeeder were both deployed behind the buildings to break line of sight.

Turn 1 The big suprise

So starting thusly I promptly seized the initiative (lucky me). I moved my landspeeder out of cover to face his annihilation barge same as the bike which went for the middle objective (of four points later revealed. Moved the rhino forward and moved my combat squad forward towards the objective near them which turned out to be sabotaged and worth one point.

I shot with my scouts on the wraights and got one wound on them. My landspeeder and bike shot the annihilation barge and promptly blew it up. This was a big suprise for both of us. First blood to me.

In his turn he moved up his wraights and lord. Tried to shoot my attack bike but did nothing.
He assaulted with his wraights my landspeeder which he then blew up as well. Causing one wound to himself with the resulting explosion. Also one of my missile squad died.

Turn 2 a slow turn

In my turn I moved up my bike on the objective in the middle and rhino and disembarked, my combat squad with the missile I moved to the right towards the right side objective.

I sniped his wraights again did nothing my captain and his squad shot at the lord as did the attack bike. Did nothing.

He then moved his wraigthts back towards my squad in the middle and shot with his right side warriors and lord on my squad in the middle didn't do much shot. He charged with his lord on my captain and then with his wraights. In that combat I challenged him he had to accept. The captain and the lord slug it out and did nothing to each other. The combat squad fought of the wraights and caused them to well die.... Big surprise to both of us. He lost his leadership, I won the resulting sweeping advance and killed off his lord, who didn't come back following that. Getting Kill the warlord. At this time I was way ahead in points.

Turn 3 The final turning point

My attack held the middle objective and my captain and his squad advanced towards his right warriors, my missle squad then took my right objective which just increased my lead.
My snipers started sniping the left side warriors getting a few hits and kills, my captain (and squad) and bike shot at the warriors in the middle, getting only 2 kills. They both came back

He started shooting at me with his warriors after shuffling a bit.

Turn 4 The end

My captain and his squad moved up again and started to shoot their pistols and flamers, doing little damage but they were in assault range

My scouts sniped the left side warriors again getting enough kills to force a morale check, which he failed. (by now the luck of dice was just a matter of fact against my opponent)
My cap and squad charged his other warriors and started to kill off them in one round he failed to damage me as I damaged him and I swept him of the board. Tableling him.

After action.
In retrospect I was very lucky in the beginning but after gaining the initiative I never really lost it. I should have probably deployed a few things better and shouldn't have forgotten my runs and the new tactics(was new to those....), but still I won the match which was a good plus. He commented that I did most things right and was very unlucky himself. Later when we discussed things he said he was to static with his warriors leaving them in the cover when he should have advanced.

It was a enjoyable match and we both had a lot of fun.

So next time I wanted to make a diffrent list to fight him on 500, apperently he said it was a though list to crack and he was suprised of how much I could fit in there.
I myself wanted to keep the base tac squad and the scouts in but I want to try something else. Does anyone have a good suggestion. (must mention no flyers, was a rule)

[Drasius]

This might be a bit of a long post, but since it's been slow here, I guess that won't matter so much.

So, after being conned into buying DoW many, many moons ago by a friend and loving it to bits, I started reading the books, and liked those too. After many more years of lurking forums (this one and 3++ mainly), I finally got around to actually watching a game today (1420 points of farsight enclaves slaughtering 1500 points of Dark Angels, talk about a lopsided match!), asking questions and generally looking to start an army.

The meta here in Cairns as far as I can gather is not overly competative, normal points level is 1500, armies played are Tau, Tau, Eldar, Blood Angels, Khorne, Nurgle, Dark Angels, Vanilla Marines with maybe a new IG army coming and probably a whole bunch of other stuff I don't know about.

Unfortunately, while I already know what I would like to play thematically (Thousand Sons), I also know What I like =//= What is good and that 1k sons is right down the bottom of the tier list.

I am also quite partial to the ultramarines, but again, mostly, what I like =//= what is good (whirlwinds, assault marines, vanguard, shootynators, landraiders, dreads, plasma cannons, lascannons, heavy bolters), while a couple of things are actually OK (librarians, landspeeders, vindicators).

Unfortunately, the opposite is true, in that what is good =//= what I like (bikes, TFC, stormtalon, melta)

To this end, now that I've had a squizz around, watched a game, spoken to a blackshirt and some of the players, given that there's no Tzeentch army to try, nor anyone who plays it up here, what's my next step?

Big Black Book & Chaos Codex, then figure out what I want to get from there, knowing I'll be playing a poor army from the start that is not well suited to a newbie

or

BBB, C:SM and a SM Strikeforce box given that it has the basic beginnings to a drop pod army that I think I would quite like?

[Wraith]

Your first step is to go back to the store and watch a few more games, and then ask very politely if your store would allow you to borrow models and have them "Count As" a Tzeentch army for a little while.

Unless this is something only local to me (and I live in Nottingham, where GW has it's HQ and a half-dozen stores within an hour's drive) most stores and their staff have a wide selection of stuff that's on show, and often they won't mind letting you try them out in a small game if you're looking to buy something shortly there after, even if you're only practicing and your opponent doesn't mind using his imagination a little bit.

In doing this, not only do you learn the rules and make some friends, but you can see if your hunch about what you may/may not like is true, and what else there is to do.

In terms of "what's a good army to play", however, then Codex: CSM is a perfectly good choice. You can build some VERY good lists once you know what you're doing, so you don;t have a lot to fear from building an outright poor army. And until you've gotten a list that you're comfortable with it has a wide range of different units, from Infantry and Jump Infantry to Tanks and Monstrous Creatures, that you can try out and learn about.

If nothing else, remember that this is an expensive hobby and you will end up extremely disappointed if you buy an army that you don't really like because those units will go to waste.
First and foremost, buy an army a) that you can legally use and b) that you actually like the look and theme of. That way, even if you lose and lose hard, you get pleasure just out of using and owning a big spiky dude with a bloodstained mace in his hand, and not some puny blue alien thing....

[Grim Portent]

Thousand Sons aren't bad as such, they just have a few weaknesses that are hard for them to shore up. With the right support they can devastate any marine armies they fight but unless you're careful with how you build the list then any army that uses lots of weaker infantry will just grind them down.

Normal Tzeentch aligned stuff is poor in the current rules, the invulnerable save is poor, most of the time cover saves will be better, and the icon gives your units one of the most pointless rules in the game.

Tzeentch aligned terminators and obliterators (and to a lesser extent posessed and warp talons) are among the hardest things in the game to shift since they ignore most of the stuff that hurts terminators an extra 16% of the time.

Tzeentch lords and sorcerers with a sigil of corruption get a 3+ invulnerable, which is nice, though the tzeentch psychic powers are rather lackluster.

If I was playing Thousand Sons I think I'd put a focus on cultists and thousand sons units for my troops with a rhino for each sons squad, havocs with lascannons/missile launchers for some hard hitting anti tank, sorcerers for my HQs, Dreadnoughts in the elite slots for some extra close quarters defense and a little more anti tank potential and most likely heldrakes in the fast attack.

It wouldn't be particularly strong as an army but it would be able to win at least sometimes.

[Tehnar]

Why don't you do 1k sons with Daemon allies to shore up any weaknesses?

[Cheesegear]

I also know What I like =//= What is good and that 1k sons is right down the bottom of the tier list.

Thousand Sons boast horrendously poor anti-vehicle capabilities, which is their main weakness. Their other weakness is that they have exactly one role in an army, and that's never going to change. They can kill Marines. That's it. If they're shooting at Terminators, they do nothing much. If they're shooting at 5+ or worse armour, they're simply really expensive for no benefit.

Which brings me to my next point; The cost. Thousand Sons are the most expensive Troops unit in a Codex bleeding expensive non-Troop units, given that Sons have exactly one role ever, forever, you rely on your non-Troops to pick up the slack, which you don't have because you don't have the points.

A way to significantly help the Sons is to Ally in some Heralds of Tzeentch with Divination to ensure that their one role isn't negated, but, Daemons don't have cheap anti-tank either - so that's a problem. Or, bring in some Guard to bring cheap anti-tank.

All-in-all, Thousand Sons are not a stand-alone army. They just can't be.

Big Black Book & Chaos Codex, then figure out what I want to get from there, knowing I'll be playing a poor army from the start that is not well suited to a newbie

Heldrakes and Land Raiders. I hope you've got cheap Troops...Wait...

BBB, C:SM and a SM Strikeforce box given that it has the basic beginnings to a drop pod army that I think I would quite like?

If you aren't going to spam Bikes, spamming Drop Pods is the next best thing.

[ZeltArruin]

If you aren't going to spam Bikes, spamming Drop Pods is the next best thing.

If he is going for a Drop Pod army, wouldn't Wolves make a better primary?

[Cheesegear]

If he is going for a Drop Pod army, wouldn't Wolves make a better primary?

Sounds like someone is using lists from before a new Marine Codex.

If you were doing Loganwing and already had a 'bank' of models with Special Weapons, sure. If you're only just starting out, then no.

Ultramarines' popping Tactical Doctrine out of Drop Pods is amazingly amazing. Devastator Doctrine allows you to re-roll all of your Overwatch shots in case you get Charged, but, seriously, TD out of a Drop Pod is bananas. Then, next turn, if you have Tigurius as your Warlord (why not?), you can then throw out two - two - Presciences because why not?

Then you've got Salamanders who have super good Flamers, and, if you've brought He'Stan (why not?), Salamanders get 'Tactical Doctrine' on all their Melta weapons.

Tactical Squad (x10); Meltagun, Combi-Melta - 160 Points
Grey Hunters (x10); x2 Meltaguns - 155 Points
Drop Pods are the same so cancel out.

Grey Hunters have Counter-Attack. If you're playing against Tau, or Necrons, or even Eldar, that is probably going to be a useless trait.
For 5 Points, Marines get a Character and
UMs; Re-roll all 1s for a turn.
Sals; Re-roll 1s on their Melta weapons

Drop Wolves are still good, but Marines now do it better unless you're playing with Loganwing with x4 Special Weapons in every unit.

[ZeltArruin]

Sounds like someone is using lists from before a new Marine Codex.

Completely forgot about doctrines, kinda matters a bit.

[lord_khaine]

By the way, if my meta-game is allmost empty of grav weapons and sniper rifles, would a Wraithknight then be a good investment?

[Penguinizer]

Heldrakes and Land Raiders. I hope you've got cheap Troops...Wait...

Land Raiders are a thing now for Chaos? I really should get around to playing WH40k again (and painting my pre-heresy army). I knew I didn't buy/greenstuff/paint those used Land Raiders for nothing.

Also, does my current/old army list of: 3 squads of Plaguemarines in Rhinos, 2 Predators or a few groups of Obliterators, 3 IG Veteran Squad allies and cheap HQ still work?

I haven't followed the meta/how people build chaos armies now at all.

[Cheesegear]

Land Raiders are a thing now for Chaos?

Land Raiders are a thing for 6th Edition in general, and one of the main reasons that Chaos (and Dark Angels) are still viable. Complete and total immunity to Wave Serpents (which one has Wraithguard/Fire Dragons in it? I shoot that one), and resistance to Tau.

I haven't followed the meta/how people build chaos armies now at all.

Typhus, Plague Zombies, Plague Marines, Heldrakes and 'Raiders seems to be top, or, at least really good.

Other build is Huron Blackheart and Land Raiders.

[Tehnar]

By the way, if my meta-game is allmost empty of grav weapons and sniper rifles, would a Wraithknight then be a good investment?

I think so. Though I don't think sniper rifles should worry you, and neither

Most things with sniper rifles hit on 4's and wound on 6's. With a 5+ cover or the shield that means 18 shots to do a single wound. Not that big of a deal.

I don't think grav guns are too troubling for the Wraithknight. With the constraints above you need on average 3.5 shots to deal 1 wound, so a bike squad with a melta will deal something like 2 wounds. The problem is that now they are within 18" which is a easy assault for the 'knight.

If there are too many grav guns on the field, and you can't stay out of range with the knight, you can always deep strike him, or move him on from reserve.

[Cheesegear]

Most things with sniper rifles hit on 4's and wound on 6's.

.5 x .5 x .33 = 0.08 (Normal, BS3)
.5 x .16 x .66 = 0.05 (Rending, with 5++)

Each Sniper weapon has a 13% chance of dealing a wound. A unit of 8 should deal exactly one Wound to a Wraithknight (how'd you get 18?). Again, still pretty terrible, but your numbers are all wrong.

Anyway, Wraithknights are amazing. Sniper weapons shouldn't bother you at all, and anything close enough to shoot a Grav-weapon at you, is close enough to Assault.

However, surprise, surprise, Wraithknights need to look out for Land Raiders with Twin-Linked Lascannons (Land Raiders are good, you say?) and Sternguard Drops...But a lot of things should be looking out for those.

[Penguinizer]

I'm curious, do people here play The Horus Heresy. I've got most of an army but I'm thinking of expanding it to 1750 points once I finish painting what I have at the moment.

Here's what I was thinking of using. It's based more on "thing I thought would be cool." over what's the best thing.

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HQ:Legion Centurion, Cataphracti Terminator Armor, Volkite Charger, Thunderhammer, Siegebreaker consul, one Phosphex bomb. 157

Elites:
Apotechary, Artificer Armor. 55

Troops:
15x Breacher Siege Marine, 3x Meltagun, Legion Vexilla, Powerfist, Beaching Charge. 360
10x Breacher Siege Marine, 2x Meltagun, Legion Vexilla, Powerfist, Breaching Charge. 295
10x Breacher Siege Marine, 2x Meltagun, Legion Vexilla, Powerfist, Breaching Charge. 295

Heavy Support:
Medusa, Phosphex Shell. 155
Medusa, Phosphex Shell. 155

I still need to figure out what to get for the last 280 points. I need to save up for 15 more Breachers so I decided I might as well try to make it a 1750 point army.

I was considering either Rapier Weapon Batteries or Dreadnoughts (contemptor or otherwise).

[Tehnar]

.5 x .33 x .33 = 0.05 (Normal, BS3)
.5 x .16 x .66 = 0.05 (Rending, with 5++)

Each Sniper weapon has a 10% chance of dealing a wound. A unit of 10 should deal exactly one Wound to a Wraithknight (how'd you get 18?). Again, still pretty terrible, but your numbers are all wrong.

Anyway, Wraithknights are amazing. Sniper weapons shouldn't bother you at all, and anything close enough to shoot a Grav-weapon at you, is close enough to Assault.

However, surprise, surprise, Wraithknights need to look out for Land Raiders with Twin-Linked Lascannons (Land Raiders are good, you say?) and Sternguard Drops...But a lot of things should be looking out for those.

I didn't add the wounds form normal shots; for some reason was thinking snipers were S3, instead of wounding on a 4+. Thanks for the correction In total that is 9 shots per wound.

[bluntpencil]

Has the Thunderfire Cannon on the Land Raider Achilles been updated to reflect the latest Codex: Space Marines? Just thinking that it's not quite as good as the fixed artillery piece.

Then again, it's unkillable.

[lord_khaine]

Ok thanks, i will certainly start looking at a Wraithknight then

Though of course, it is rather expensive in cash, and i could instead gain buy a group of Warp spiders and Wraithblades for the same money.

But what does people here think is the wisest investment?

[Tehnar]

If you are strapped for cash, try proxying it out (or playing on Vassal) to see if it works for you. Proxy the alternatives as well so you can see what works best for you.

It also depends on the models you already have. Personally I would go for Warpspiders before Wraithknight before Wraithblades.

[lord_khaine]

Well, i am not that strapped for cash again, but a Wraith knight will take a rather huge chunk out of my budget, enough so that i wont buy anything else for a couple of months at least.

I do have a singel unit Warpspiders so far, and have generally liked the performance.

Though i was also considering making an at least slightly wraith themed list, with a unit of Guards and Blades in Wave serpents as the core, and then reinforced with a couple of the larger constructs and a fire Prism.

At the moment i have the wraithguards, the wave serpents, the fire prism and a couple of regular wraithlords.

[Ka-ther Fangfoot]

Well, with the fire prism and wraithlords, you don't have a slot left for the wraithknight.

[lord_khaine]

That just means i got a backup Wraithlord if i dont go out and buy a Wraithknight

[Drasius]

Thanks for the pointers gents.

Will wander down and, if nothing else, grab the main rule book today.

the 2 very vauge lists I'm thinking of at the moment;

Thousand Sons

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Sorc
-ML3, SoC, Spell Familiar

1K Sons
-8+Aspiring Sorc and Rhino
1K Sons
-8+Aspiring Sorc and Rhino

Forge Fiend
-Dual Hades AC
Forge Fiend
-Dual Hades AC
Forge Fiend
-Dual Hades AC

Allies
Herald
-ML2, Locus

Horrors
-9, more as points allow

Screamers
-3, more as points allow

Trading the forge fiends for Annihilator Preds (and some points to bulk up the daemons) would get me some nice AP2, but at the cost of AA.

Marines

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Lib

Tacs
-Power Sword, Plasma, Pod
Tacs
-Power Sword, Melta, Pod
Tacs
-Power Sword, Flamer, Pod

Scouts
-Sniper Rifles

Dread
-MM, Pod

Assault
-Flamer, Pod

Land Speeder
-Dual MM
Land Speeder
-Dual HF

+~220 points? Maybe some shootynators or a space potato to deal with fliers? Drop both the Speeders and turn them into another pair of MM pod Dreads for 4 pods 1st turn?

[Cheesegear]

Ask four players how they started their game, and you'll get five different answers. Here's a refresher course.

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1. Player A rolls Mission
2. Player B rolls Deployment
3. Roll to go first.
4. Place Fortifications in order of who goes first (if any)
5. Place Terrain. Yes, Fortifications are placed before any other terrain.
6. Place Objectives. Yes, before Deployment, not after.
7. Determine Warlord Traits
8. Determine Psychic Powers*
9. Both players Deploy armies in order of who goes first.
10. Deploy Infiltrators.
11. Redeploy Scouts.
12. Seize the Initiative.
13. Play.

*To Determine a Psychic Power, roll a die. Choose Primaris. Each power must be fully resolved before you roll for another Power.

Tournaments often have set tables with Terrain already on it, in this case, a Fortification replaces a piece of terrain already on the board, you don't actually get a free piece.

This is especially a pain in the arse when you realise that nobody proof-read anything when it comes to this order.

Space Marines must Combat Squad before Warlord Traits - when you know literally nothing except the Mission and terrain placement, ideally, you should also not see your opponents' models until Deployment, too.
Dark Angels choose to Combat Squad before Deployment. This is good because you know your Warlord Trait and Psychic Powers and can plan to have bigger or smaller squads accordingly. But, you don't know your opponent's army because no models have been placed on the board yet.

Blood Angels and Grey Knights choose to Combat Squad during Deployment, at the time that the unit is put on the table. This is easily the best since you have the most information available to you (i.e; If you deploy second, you've seen your opponent's army).

So, yeah. 4 Armies with 3 different rules for the same rule.

[Forrestfire]

So... We now have a concrete reason to play Blood Angels over codex marines?

[Jormengand]

So... We now have a concrete reason to play Blood Angels over codex marines?

And about fifty to play codex marines over BA? Yes.

[Cheesegear]

So... We now have a concrete reason to play Blood Angels over codex marines?

Ever seen unkillable Corbulo? Blood Angels just have a different Chapter Tactics to regular Marines, that's all. They're not worse by any means. 1 in 6 of your units will have Fearless and Furious Charge, take a Character and get aura-FNP. Then, all your vehicles have Fast. Also, Blood Angels get Divination, because why not?

Blood Angels and Dark Angels still have reasons to exist, provided you don't just try and build a list you could just as easily get out of Codex Marines. And, if you really want a Stormtalon and Thunderfire Cannon like you do, just Ally them in.

[Eldan]

Tournaments often have set tables with Terrain already on it, in this case, a Fortification replaces a piece of terrain already on the board, you don't actually get a free piece.

What. Really? Then why would anyone ever bring fortifications?

[Volthawk]

What. Really? Then why would anyone ever bring fortifications?

Gun emplacements?

[Cheesegear]

What. Really? Then why would anyone ever bring fortifications?

AV14, 20-man Transports that are immune to Grav-weapons spring to mind.
4++ For everyone on top of it (Daemons break it).
Fortresses are usually banned.

Aegis Lines don't replace terrain. So, there's that exception.

And, also, a lot of the better players don't bring Fortifications because the other better players that they'll be playing against will generally try and find a way to take it from them.