Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

[Timberwolf]

So, the new releases section of the GW site has the Sisters on it now.

For a second, until I scrolled down, I was hopeful. Maybe just a box of plastic sisters would be available, maybe. Just the one box needed to be plastic. The rest could be metal, I didn't care, but the basic box of troops, just to make sure that you don't need a couple of stalwart lads with a forklift to shift your army case for you, surely GW would have mercy on the weak arm muscles of legions of gamers...

Oh dear, oh dear.

I cannot understand GW's attitude to the Sisters. Its almost as if they actually want them to just go away, in which case, let them go the way of the Squat by all means, take the inevitable rage from the few remaining die hard Sisters players who can actually make the WD codex work and stop insulting us.

All these half hearted attempts to say "Yes, we're supporting them, no longer will we delete an army, we've learned, look, aren't we great, we're listening" are, frankly, an insult to people's intelligence. "Supporting" them by charging £50 for a 10 nun troops squad when every other army is a: plastic and b: even at GW's prices, £20 less. Even if they made them of solid gold, I wouldn't pay that as the Codex is a trainwreck and this latest one, if the initial reports are true, that it's the WD one updated with some extra stuff for 6th, is the laziest piece of cashing in I've ever heard of.

And I've heard of a few.

For years, I've wanted a Sisters army. The only things that have stopped me are the ludicrous weight of the thing, initially, the unavailability of the codex and after the White Dwarf thing, the uselessness of it and the price of buying the metal minis. Whenever the subject has come up, these have been the exact same complaints of the overwhelming majority of people spoken to. "I'd do a Sisters army in a heartbeat if there were plastic minis and a proper codex" has been a fair paraphrase of pretty much every conversation I have ever had on the subject.

I remember a few pages ago that someone said that a physical copy was dependent on sales. If that's true, I hope everyone who is interested has a Ipad (I don't, another nail in the coffin for any Sisters army I may do) because I just can't see it happening. This leaves an unpleasant taste in my mouth as, I'm afraid, the Sisters are getting a very raw deal. They're the only army with no plastics and no support and they're expected to perform as well as Orks, Chaos and Eldar in sales ?

I'd laugh but I think I'd rather be sad.

[Jormengand]

-Stuff on SoBs-

I've seen quite a cool army which involved modifying SMs with spare guard heads and a bit of green stuff (for the bits that make them look female, such as their br... uh, hair) along with making some inquisitorial symbols and stealing brets' transfer sheets. Looked like pretty cool sisters, but it'd be a lot of work.

And yeah, I dislike the whole "Digital codex" thing. It's fine if you're okay with buying the Ipad, and then buying the actual codex for it, but otherwise? Bleh.

Fortunately, the Canoness is one of the most reasonably-priced HQ choices around, repentias are all right, celestians can be converted up from taccies and devastators, sisters can be converted up from taccies, the Immolator is all right, the rhino is a rhino, seraphim can be converted up from assault marines and spare bits if you're careful not to use up too many of your pistols, excorcists are all right, penitent engines are actually fairly cheap by GW standards, and retributors can be converted from devastators.

While it's not the best deal ever, it can work.

[ZeltArruin]

I've seen quite a cool army which involved modifying SMs with spare guard heads and a bit of green stuff (for the bits that make them look female, such as their br... uh, hair) along with making some inquisitorial symbols and stealing brets' transfer sheets. Looked like pretty cool sisters, but it'd be a lot of work.

Historically speaking, their armor should be pretty much exactly the same as a Space Marine's, albeit smaller, because such curves around the sternum would only make it easier to harm the wearer. But then, this is the distant space-future we're talking about.

[Timberwolf]

Fortunately, the Canoness is one of the most reasonably-priced HQ choices around, repentias are all right, celestians can be converted up from taccies and devastators, sisters can be converted up from taccies, the Immolator is all right, the rhino is a rhino, seraphim can be converted up from assault marines and spare bits if you're careful not to use up too many of your pistols, excorcists are all right, penitent engines are actually fairly cheap by GW standards, and retributors can be converted from devastators.

While it's not the best deal ever, it can work.

Eventually, I'm sure, after a level of effort that most people won't be prepared to put in, myself included, what with being in the unfortunate position of having to work. I might be able to put out a reasonable army in maybe 2 years if I kitbashed everything, learned to sculpt properly and had a lot of people who were free with their bitz collections.

However, my main point of contention is the unfairness of the Sisters situation and how they expect to turn a profit off them.

[Jormengand]

Eventually, I'm sure, after a level of effort that most people won't be prepared to put in, myself included, what with being in the unfortunate position of having to work. I might be able to put out a reasonable army in maybe 2 years if I kitbashed everything, learned to sculpt properly and had a lot of people who were free with their bitz collections.

However, my main point of contention is the unfairness of the Sisters situation and how they expect to turn a profit off them.

Oh, absolutely. But viability of buying the army just depends on what kind of sister army you're going for. If you were planning to spam penitent engines and repentia squads (Fluffy, cheap AND deadly!) you'd be getting yourself a decent deal except on the sisters, who aren't that hard to convert from marines and guard (also, marine sergeants have helmetless heads you can convert up, and you could always have some sisters, I dunno, wearing helmets?)

If you decided to play WHfan and get bretonnians, they also come with tons of heads that are even easier to convert up for sisters' purposes.

Historically speaking, their armor should be pretty much exactly the same as a Space Marine's, albeit smaller, because such curves around the sternum would only make it easier to harm the wearer. But then, this is the distant space-future we're talking about.

Ehh, but force dispersion is higher on a hemisphere than on a plane, meaning that a solid impact, while more likely to go through the armour, would be less likely to kill the wearer if it didn't go through. And nothing goes through power armour. [/exaggeration]

That said, it just makes it easier to convert, right?

[LeSwordfish]

Surely someone somewhere sells super-generic "28mm female heads"?

[Jormengand]

Surely someone somewhere sells super-generic "28mm female heads"?

That's also quite likely, though since my main gaming venue is GW itself I tend to avoid non-GW bought products in my models, except for ubiquitous things like magnets for weapon-swaps. It may be different for some people.

[Wraith]

However, my main point of contention is the unfairness of the Sisters situation and how they expect to turn a profit off them.

Turning a profit on Sister of Battle is theoretically quite easy. First they reprint a old WD Codex under the paper thin facade of a 'new' one. Zero production value is spent on it, save about an afternoon getting some intern to write up a list of Warlord Traits.

They then release it as digital only. Again, absolutely no production costs save some new generic artwork that they've had lying around for a year or two anyway. So, 50,000 curious/die hard people buy it for $10 a piece, GW having spent a grand total of 'nothing' on getting it made. That's very nearly half a million dollars in pure profit.

And, of course, SOMEONE will inevitably buy some models anyway. Models that GW have had sat in a warehouse gathering dust since Codex: Witch-hunters was released a decade ago, so at the very worst GW recoup their losses and break even on those. Probably even a profit, since the price to buy white metal has just gone up and up and GW had it all made back when it was 'cheap'.

So, yeah. Codex: Sisters of Battle is basically GW having a garage sale, and dressing it up under the guise of an 'antiques' fair knowing full well that they don't need people to go out and buy iPads in order to get the book, as any sales at all are pure profit anyway.

[Requizen]

Recently started collecting/playing. Decided on Necrons because who doesn't love Egyption Zombie Robots with Lasers in Space?

I'm aware of most of the current strats due to forums and 1d4chan and stuff, but I really feel like I need to ask: How many Scythes can I run in an army before I become "that guy"?

[Cheesegear]

I'm aware of most of the current strats due to forums and 1d4chan and stuff, but I really feel like I need to ask: How many Scythes can I run in an army before I become "that guy"?

A good rule of thumb is that if you have more than 3 of anything that's actually any good, you're 'that guy'.

[Requizen]

A good rule of thumb is that if you have more than 3 of anything that's actually any good, you're 'that guy'.

Bah, if I want to run Night Scythes for my troops/Deathmarks and 3 Doom Scythes I should be allowed to with no shame :P

In seriousness though, I'm unsure as what to buy. This is my first army and I've just been kind of buying stuff that looks cool. I have:

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-1 Overlord
-1 Cryptek
-1 Destroyer Lord
-Nemesor Zandrekh
-Vargard Obyron
-1 Ghost Ark
-1 Barge (unglued so can be run as Annihilation or Command)
-1 Scythe (unglued so can be Doom or Night)
-20 Warriors
-10 Immortals
-5 Deathmarks
-1 Stalker
-3 Destroyers
-2 Heavy Destroyers

I'm thinking that I should pick up some more Immortals (they've been godmode since I started using them) and probably some more Vehicles, but I'm unsure. Are Lychguards good picks when I'm running Obyron?

[Squark]

Let's see.... The Core of the 'cron army is 2-3 Annihilation Barges. They're just that good. And really darn cheap. And they come with a plastic overlord model you can easily turn into a regular lord with a headswap and an established color scheme for Lords vs. Overlods. So, yeah. Buy them. 2 Scythes (typically night scythes) is also pretty core to the army.

From there... Let's see... If you're not going for a wraith-star (6 Wraiths+Destroyer lord), a good royal court is pretty much mandatory. More crypteks and Lords are a good idea. The lords you can get from the Barges, while Crypteks conversions using the Lychguard/Triarch Praetorian kit (lychguard body, Praetorian staff) and Deathmark heads are pretty easy. That's about the only thing the kit is really good for, I'm afraid- Praetorians may be the worst unit in the codex, and Lychguard lack a delivery method and are just generally inferior to terminators and wraiths.

Warriors vs. Immortals... Warriors are a better workhorse unit (larger numbers means they're point per point more durable than Immortals, and the shame is true of shooting pretty much anything except a Wraithlord or something with a 4+ save that's out of cover), although Tesla Immortals do have their advantages. I'd say you've got enough of them for the moment, though, so go with more warriors.

So... I'd say 1-2 more barges, another scythe, more warriors, and either Wraiths or a box of lychguard for royal court-making.

[Eldan]

I've never seen anyone using more than two flying things total in their armies.

[shadow_archmagi]

I've never seen anyone using more than two flying things total in their armies.

Well, Annihilation Barges don't really work like Flyers.

[Renegade Paladin]

I've never seen anyone using more than two flying things total in their armies.

I have personally fielded four flyers in 1500

They weren't all the same flyer, though.

[Cheesegear]

I've never seen anyone using more than two flying things total in their armies.

But I've posted Battle Reports where I use four.
x2 Stormtalons, x2 Vendettas. For the entirety of 6th up until the new Marine book.

[DaedalusMkV]

I've never seen anyone using more than two flying things total in their armies.

I've seen a game where someone with four Vendettas and an Avenger went up against someone with three Vendettas and a Vulture (the second guy won because he had six Saber Defense Platforms while the first guy only had one Hydra Flak Battery to back up his flier spam). I've also seen a Necron army with six Night Scythes and a Doom Scythe (get roflstomped by the guy with six Sabers and three Vendettas, who had all seven Scythes destroyed by turn 3).

Flier spam is a thing that happens. More often in tourneys than friendly games, but I've seen Flying Circus Daemons and 'Cron Air on tables for PUGs before. All it takes is one person being 'that guy' to infect an entire metagame, in my experience.

[shadow_archmagi]

What exactly makes fliers so vicious? I haven't encountered them yet, so I'm unclear on how exactly they work.

[Cheesegear]

What exactly makes fliers so vicious? I haven't encountered them yet, so I'm unclear on how exactly they work.

Unless you have Skyfire - which is practically nothing except Tau - you can only fire Snap Shots at Fliers.

Then, along with that, there are some Fliers which just have amazing armaments that you would take anyway, even if the vehicles weren't Fliers (like 5th, funnily enough). For example, a Vendetta is a Predator tank with three Twin-Linked Lascannons for 130 Points. Oh, and the Predator flies, and can Transport stuff. Why would you not take a Vendetta.

Then you've got Heldrakes and Stormtalons. There's the obvious Night Scythes, and they're just amazing because they're cheap and can be spammed in Troops slots (like Wave Serpents), and that's before you include their decent weapon loadout.

And Razorwings, if anybody bothered to play Dark Eldar.

Fliers are hard to kill. And the Vendetta, Stormtalon and Night Scythe are holdovers from 5th that were good to begin with, and went from Skimmer to Flier with no points increase - in fact, the Stormtalon got cheaper!

[Eldan]

But I've posted Battle Reports where I use four.
x2 Stormtalons, x2 Vendettas. For the entirety of 6th up until the new Marine book.

I meant in person, at the table. Most people in my store have one flier.

[Requizen]

Unless you have Skyfire - which is practically nothing except Tau - you can only fire Snap Shots at Fliers.

Then, along with that, there are some Fliers which just have amazing armaments that you would take anyway, even if the vehicles weren't Fliers (like 5th, funnily enough). For example, a Vendetta is a Predator tank with three Twin-Linked Lascannons for 130 Points. Oh, and the Predator flies, and can Transport stuff. Why would you not take a Vendetta.

Then you've got Heldrakes and Stormtalons. There's the obvious Night Scythes, and they're just amazing because they're cheap and can be spammed in Troops slots (like Wave Serpents), and that's before you include their decent weapon loadout.

And Razorwings, if anybody bothered to play Dark Eldar.

Fliers are hard to kill. And the Vendetta, Stormtalon and Night Scythe are holdovers from 5th that were good to begin with, and went from Skimmer to Flier with no points increase - in fact, the Stormtalon got cheaper!

Don't forget Hive Tyrant with Wings - one of the only good units in the Tyranid 'dex basically because it's a Flyer.

[Cheesegear]

Don't forget Hive Tyrant with Wings - one of the only good units in the Tyranid 'dex basically because it's a Flyer.

Due to Grounding Checks, FMCs are a whole different kettle of fish to Fliers. What makes a Hive Tyrant good is the twelve, S6 shots with Preferred Enemy. Not the Wings. A Hive Tyrant on foot is - or was, thanks to Gravs - plenty deadly. The other thing that makes Tyrants deadly is simple target saturation. There's three Tervigons and maybe a Mawloc on the board. Some armies simply aren't going to be able do deal with the Tyrant, let alone two of them.

[Jormengand]

Due to Grounding Checks, FMCs are a whole different kettle of fish to Fliers.

Having seen a flyrant take its final wound after falling from a hit from a markerlight, I can attest to this.

[lord_khaine]

Having seen a flyrant take its final wound after falling from a hit from a markerlight, I can attest to this.

Ok, if that is actualy doable by the rules, then its bloddy hilarious

laserpen distractions ftw

[Renegade Paladin]

Ok, if that is actualy doable by the rules, then its bloddy hilarious

laserpen distractions ftw

Basically. A Guard combined squad platoon with lasguns is a Flyrant's worst nightmare.

[Cheesegear]

Ok, if that is actualy doable by the rules

If a Swooping Monstrous Creature is Hit (not Wounded) by a Shooting attack, take a Grounded Test. Are Markerlights Shooting attacks? Do Markerlights cause Hits? Yes, and yes.

[Wraith]

"Look out! Incoming Flying Bloodthirster of Khorne! Okay everyone, put away your lascannons and get out your Bolt Pistols!"

Pretty much word-for-word what happened in my last game against Unpronounceable. And despite me suffering an(other...) Overwhelming Loss of 4pts to 8pts (Hammer & Anvil/The Scouring), it was the closest battle we've had in a long, long time

Having said that, just prior to the same battle I discovered that I seem to have lost a box that contains my Land Raider and two Vindicators, and the only place where I can think that they might be is tucked under a table at Warhammer World when I last visited..... 5 months ago. So not a good day, all in all.

This has kinda taken the wind out of my sails, in so far as playing Space Marines goes; I could get new tanks, I guess, but my win/loss rate with them sucks so I'm not really inclined to throw good money after bad.

I think I'm inclined to start a new army from fresh - no more Space Marine variants, not even Grey Knights. I am, however, stuck for inspiration - I've done Eldar to death and the new Codex is still a little 'Meh' until I figure out an angle that I like, and I was considering Tau until the new book came out and suddenly everyone and their mother was collecting them...
...So, what's an army that the Playground doesn't see around very much? I'm not the world's greatest modeller, but I know my way around a rotary tool and I'd like to start something that isn't just another shopping list of power armour.

I still *kinda* want to do Tyranids, but the current Codex is disappointing and the new one still an enigma.... Anyone heard any good rumours about it to try and convince me otherwise?

[Cheesegear]

I think I'm inclined to start a new army from fresh - no more Space Marine variants, not even Grey Knights.

All the cool kids are running;
Eldar, Tau, Space Marines and Daemons.

Tyranids are fairly solid. But, they're in a mono-build right now, and if you're not up to painting half a dozen MCs and 100 Termagants, then they're probably not for you. And this subject to change (but, I hardly think that Tervigons are going to get worse).

Necrons are totally awesome. But 'are so 2012'. Especially if your meta is flooded with Tau.

Imperial Guard are decent. Not as good as they once were. But not an 'auto-lose' choice should you choose to build them properly. However, it's kind of similar to Tyranids. A bunch of big stuff, and a whole lot more little stuff. But, then, that is the meta right now.

Sisters of Battle Adepta Sororitas comes out tomorrow with a TOTALLY NEW CODEX!!!

[Tehnar]

[I]

I still *kinda* want to do Tyranids, but the current Codex is disappointing and the new one still an enigma.... Anyone heard any good rumours about it to try and convince me otherwise?

Rumor has it Tyranids are next, and going by last year that probably means January.

[Wraith]

All the cool kids....

Fortunately, the LEAST important consideration in my quest

I'm perfectly capable of simply winning the game with an Alpha Strike and Turn 2 mopping exercise if I wanted to but I'm always more interested in PLAYING the game, rocking back and forth across the battle field and struggling right down to the last turn.
Frankly, I'd settle for anything that could achieve an approximate 50% win rate on a 'casual' setting.

Hmm.... Let's reason it out a bit, just for the sake of it....

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Space Marines/Blood Angels/Dark Angels/Space Wolves/Grey Knights/Chaos Space Marines
Lots of proven units, lots of support, lots of powerful rules. I have, however, done them to death, and am sick of Power Armour and Boltguns, quite frankly. There's some variety in there, but really not enough for me to want to throw lots of money at again.

"Witchhunters"
The archtypcal Coteaz + Warbands list, which I consider separate to Grey Knights because a) they play very differently to the Marines and b) I am so very, very old and I still remember when Codex: Witch-Hunters were a new thing.
A very flavourful army and it'd let me use all sorts of fun and interesting miniatures that wouldn't normally see a 40k table - Tech Priests, Inquisitors, Necromunda-era Bounty Hunters and the likes, although it is kinda "Imperial Guard Lite" in terms of what they do. A possibility, if I *really* feel like getting back into painting.

Tyranids
Wanted to do them for a long time, but the Codex is particularly uninspiring. While I COULD grind out 60 Termagaunts if I really wanted to, I was thinking more along the lines of a list made entirely of reserves, using Genestealers and Mawlocs (my two favourite units) which'd be random, but potentially fun. The only question in, what ELSE would I use in the list?
Probably best wait until the 6th Ed, and hope that the rumours for taking a Trygon Prime-esque creature as HQ is true.

Eldar
Eldar were my first army when I was.... what, 13 years old? Over the last decade-and-a-half, I collected some 3000 points of them in 2nd Edition, sold them when I thought that 3rd Edition had ruined the game forever, and then bought back another 5000 points when I stopped being such a wuss and learned the rules properly.

Sufficed to say, I've had enough of the Space Elves for the time being.

Dark Eldar
Something very different to what I'm used to - all bikes and skimmers, though I don't really know enough about them to make a properly informed decision. Also; more Space Elves, just spikier. I'm a pedant, I know, but I can't help it.

Necrons
'So 2012' is exactly what springs to mind - they're still a reasonably new army (or, at least, a well known one) and there's plenty of them around. I was hoping for something a little more unique.... And Necron Warriors are a little too MEQ for what I was hoping for anyway.

Sisters of Battle
My Google-Fu is strong, so actually collecting a reasonable army via eBay and the likes doesn't frighten me away from them as much as buying new would, but the downside is that I have no legal way to own their new Codex, and I certainly ain't picking up an Apple product just for that. Also, too many Power Armour and Boltguns again.

Tau Empire
Too common, again very MEQ-y unless I pick up a whole lot of Crisis Suits. Which'd work, I guess, but that doesn't leave a lot of variety.

Orks
Good God, but how I hate painting Orks!
I painted 2000pts worth of them for a friend, and I was sick of them by about.... 500pts or so. And the army I'd build would be a lot more spammy of the decent units, which means a lot more green to paint.
Still, no one plays Orks. At all. And being what they are, I could convert whatever I wanted - Looted Tyranid army, maybe?

Imperial Guard
At one point I was very tempted by a 'Forge World' army; paint a 'Guard army red and gold to represent Skitarii and use Tech Priest/Tech Marine models in place of normal officers, adding whatever little trinkets I like from the Grey Knights/Witch Hunters range and justifying them as "weird archeotech stuff". Definitely a possibility.

So, yeah. I don't want much, do I?