Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

[A_S]

The spell immunity special ability is never referenced. Good reference for a good houserule though.

Hmmm...I've always considered "become immune to a spell" to be the same thing as "gain spell immunity vs. a spell," i.e., anything that uses any form of the word "immune" inherits the stuff about spell immunity.

You're right that that's iffy, though, since the Spell Immunity description is under creature abilities, not somewhere where it's obviously saying "this is what it means to be immune to a spell in D&D."

[NeoPhoenix0]

That's why they had to change the spell immunity ability to what it is now. It wasn't easy to use before.

[Chronos]

The Ghost Touch weapon property won't actually let the weapon touch a ghost. Ghost Touch just bypasses incorporeality, but ghosts are normally also ethereal, and Ghost Touch doesn't do anything about ethereal.

[NeoPhoenix0]

The Ghost Touch weapon property won't actually let the weapon touch a ghost. Ghost Touch just bypasses incorporeality, but ghosts are normally also ethereal, and Ghost Touch doesn't do anything about ethereal.

Most people can't even find an ethereal ghost, let alone try to hit it. I'm pretty sure it was designed to hit a manifested ghost.

[bekeleven]

Likely mentioned before, but in this thread people discuss how some abilities on aquatic animals (such as the octopus's ink cloud and jet abilities) don't specify that they are restricted to water. The context of this was octopi lycanthrope PCs gaining the abilities.

[NeoPhoenix0]

So, theoretically a whale, despite not having a land speed, can use a full round action to move 5 ft on land. They don't die when outside the water. They just need some food and water like any other creature. So train your very own land whale.

Edit: Also, the sea snake familiar option in stormwrack doesn't specify a size. Since the sea snake uses a modified viper stat block, I would assume that it was supposed to be tiny.

[Sith_Happens]

Not a dysfunction with the rule itself, but with the truly maddening amounts of bookkeeping and/or math it can easily end up taking to actually use it as written:

Once per round, a random object within 20 feet of a ravid animates as though by the spell animate objects (caster level 20th). These objects defend the ravid to the best of their ability, but the ravid isn’t intelligent enough to employ elaborate tactics with them.

There are easily over 100 distinct objects in the ~10x10x10ft room from which I'm writing this. Sure, many of them would be functionally identical to each other as Animated Objects, but I'd still have to know how many and construct an entire percentage table based on that.

[TuggyNE]

So, theoretically a whale, despite not having a land speed, can use a full round action to move 5 ft on land. They don't die when outside the water. They just need some food and water like any other creature. So train your very own land whale.

To go with your land shark, of course.

[Fax Celestis]

The Ghost Touch weapon property won't actually let the weapon touch a ghost. Ghost Touch just bypasses incorporeality, but ghosts are normally also ethereal, and Ghost Touch doesn't do anything about ethereal.

Irrelevant. The only time a ghost would be using a ghost touch weapon would be when it is manifesting.

Manifestation (Su)

Every ghost has this ability. A ghost dwells on the Ethereal Plane and, as an ethereal creature, it cannot affect or be affected by anything in the material world. When a ghost manifests, it partly enters the Material Plane and becomes visible but incorporeal on the Material Plane. A manifested ghost can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons, or spells, with a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source. A manifested ghost can pass through solid objects at will, and its own attacks pass through armor. A manifested ghost always moves silently. A manifested ghost can strike with its touch attack or with a ghost touch weapon (see Ghostly Equipment, below). A manifested ghost remains partially on the Ethereal Plane, where is it not incorporeal. A manifested ghost can be attacked by opponents on either the Material Plane or the Ethereal Plane. The ghost’s incorporeality helps protect it from foes on the Material Plane, but not from foes on the Ethereal Plane.

When a spellcasting ghost is not manifested and is on the Ethereal Plane, its spells cannot affect targets on the Material Plane, but they work normally against ethereal targets. When a spellcasting ghost manifests, its spells continue to affect ethereal targets and can affect targets on the Material Plane normally unless the spells rely on touch. A manifested ghost’s touch spells don’t work on nonethereal targets.

A ghost has two home planes, the Material Plane and the Ethereal Plane. It is not considered extraplanar when on either of these planes.

[Darrin]

Show me where there's rules in the SRD about designating your handedness.

PHB p. 143:

"If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first."

Granted, this doesn't really say that you're designating which weapon is primary or that you can switch whenever you like, but I interpret this to mean that whenever you make an iterative attack, you can choose any weapon that you have readed to attack.

There is an argument that whenever you hold a second weapon in your other hand, you automatically incur TWF penalties because you are now "wielding" two weapons, even if you don't choose to make any attacks with your second weapon. Gwendol has championed this argument many times, and although hardly anyone agrees with him, there is no clear indication from RAW that he's wrong.

As far as Rules of the Game goes, most folks consider those at the same level of authoriy as the FAQ (which is mostly Skip's Sage rulings anyway): advice/suggestions on RAI, but not RAW or Official Errata.

[Chronos]

I'm not talking about a ghost using it. I'm talking about using it against a ghost.

Incidentally, the Ethereal Reaver weapon property from MIC also doesn't let you hit ethereal, despite it being right there in the name.

[Fax Celestis]

PHB p. 143:

"If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first."

Granted, this doesn't really say that you're designating which weapon is primary or that you can switch whenever you like, but I interpret this to mean that whenever you make an iterative attack, you can choose any weapon that you have readed to attack.

There is an argument that whenever you hold a second weapon in your other hand, you automatically incur TWF penalties because you are now "wielding" two weapons, even if you don't choose to make any attacks with your second weapon. Gwendol has championed this argument many times, and although hardly anyone agrees with him, there is no clear indication from RAW that he's wrong.

As far as Rules of the Game goes, most folks consider those at the same level of authoriy as the FAQ (which is mostly Skip's Sage rulings anyway): advice/suggestions on RAI, but not RAW or Official Errata.

As I quoted earlier in the thread, you only incur TWF penalties when you gain extra attacks from fighting with two or more weapons. It's very clear.

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways:

I'm not talking about a ghost using it. I'm talking about using it against a ghost.

Incidentally, the Ethereal Reaver weapon property from MIC also doesn't let you hit ethereal, despite it being right there in the name.

And when a ghost manifests it becomes material and incorporeal, and ethereal. It's coexistent, and as such it is subject to ethereal-only effects as well as material effects that can strike incorporeal creatures.

[Darrin]

As I quoted earlier in the thread, you only incur TWF penalties when you gain extra attacks from fighting with two or more weapons. It's very clear.

Clear as mud, yes. (I got this one, Gwendol.)

PHB p. 160:

"If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. Fighting in this way is very hard, however, and you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand."
(emphasis added)

Can is not must. The other issue is "wield" is not explicitly defined in the rules. If you define it as holding a weapon in your hand so it is ready to attack, then any time you hold a weapon in your right hand and a second weapon in your left hand, you incur TWF penalties even though you may have chosen not to get an extra attack. This has been thoroughly argued back and forth before, to no definitive conclusion (or I should say, we haven't managed to convince Gwendol that he's wrong yet).

I actually disagree with Gwendol, but I can't say that the *rules* disagree with him. It can be interpretted that way, and I see no clear indication from the rules that my way or his way is the intended interpretation.

[Fax Celestis]

Clear as mud, yes. (I got this one, Gwendol.)

PHB p. 160:

"If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. Fighting in this way is very hard, however, and you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand."
(emphasis added)

The implication is that if you get an extra attack, you take a penalty. This is supported with two-weapon-fighting-esque feats like Snap Kick and Rapid Shot--get an extra attack, take a -2 penalty.

I actually disagree with Gwendol, but I can't say that the *rules* disagree with him. It can be interpretted that way, and I see no clear indication from the rules that my way or his way is the intended interpretation.

Granted.

[Darrin]

The implication is that if you get an extra attack, you take a penalty. This is supported with two-weapon-fighting-esque feats like Snap Kick and Rapid Shot--get an extra attack, take a -2 penalty.

Implication is not RAW.

There may be another rules dysfunction with TWF (as explained by Emperor Tippy), but it was "fixed" in the Rules Compendium. By RAW, there's an argument that the text from the TWF feat is an exception to the "you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks" rule on page 143 of the PHB. As in, specific trumps general. Thus, taking the TWF feat allows a primary + offhand attack as a standard action. However, Tippy is the only one I've ever seen make this argument.

[The Viscount]

As if you needed any more reason not to mess with the Elemental Weirds, they all have regeneration 10, but their entries don't list what overcomes said regeneration, so I suppose nothing does.

[TuggyNE]

As if you needed any more reason not to mess with the Elemental Weirds, they all have regeneration 10, but their entries don't list what overcomes said regeneration, so I suppose nothing does.

How about being hit with a Tarrasque?

[3WhiteFox3]

As if you needed any more reason not to mess with the Elemental Weirds, they all have regeneration 10, but their entries don't list what overcomes said regeneration, so I suppose nothing does.

Trollbane would still work. It only cares if you have regeneration, not if it can be normally surpassed by anything or not.

[TuggyNE]

Trollbane would still work. It only cares if you have regeneration, not if it can be normally surpassed by anything or not.

But isn't it at least vaguely poison-ish? The weirds should (if I'm not completely off-base) be immune to it on that basis.

[NeoPhoenix0]

But isn't it at least vaguely poison-ish? The weirds should (if I'm not completely off-base) be immune to it on that basis.

It functions as an injury poison, and doesn't say poison immunity doesn't work. So poison immunity will stop trollbane.

Although there is some weirdness there as it only has an initial effect and doesn't require a save. BY RAW I still say trollbane doesn't work on things immune to poison.

[3WhiteFox3]

But isn't it at least vaguely poison-ish? The weirds should (if I'm not completely off-base) be immune to it on that basis.

I'm honestly not sure. It kind of acts like a poison, but it also doesn't. I believe it's listed as an alchemical item. I'm afb unfortunately, so I can't check right now.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Trollbane is in the alchemical substance section, but it "functions as an injury poison". For reference trollbane is the most un-injury-poison like injury poison. It doesn't actually require you to do damage, you just have to hit forcefully with a piercing or slashing weapon. It also has no save or secondary effect.

[nedz]

Were-Rats are invalid Lycanthropes

This animal can be any predator, scavenger, or omnivore whose size is within one size category of the base creature’s size (Small, Medium, or Large for a Medium base creature). Lycanthropes can also adopt a hybrid shape that combines features of the base creature and the base animal. A lycanthrope’s hybrid form is the same size as the base animal or the base creature, whichever is larger.

Humans are Medium, Rats are Tiny.

[mattie_p]

Were-Rats are invalid Lycanthropes



Humans are Medium, Rats are Tiny.

Sorry, I cross-posted in the lycanthrope thread.

This is not [a dysfunction]. The were-rat lycanthrope form specifies it is a Dire-rat, which is size small (and combined with a medium human).

[nedz]

Sorry, I cross-posted in the lycanthrope thread.

My fault for jumping the gun here then

[fluke1993]

Nah, you can still make a were-rat halfling.

[Drelua]

Here's a good one I just noticed from the Pathfinder Fighter archetype Armor Master:

Deflective Shield (Ex)

At 2nd level, an armor master specializes in using his shield to deflect attacks. He gains a +1 bonus to his touch AC, and this bonus increases for every four levels beyond 2nd (to a maximum of +6 at 20th level); however, this bonus cannot exceed the sum of the armor and enhancement bonus to AC provided by the shield that the armor master is currently carrying.

Of course, shields provide a shield bonus, not an armor bonus. So this ability is limited by the enhancement bonus on your shield, meaning you can never get the full +6 at level 20. The intent is at least clear, but still.

[ShurikVch]

Winter werewolves are invalid Lycanthropes
Winter wolf is not an animal, but a magical beast

[Chronos]

Is there any claim otherwise? Because if we're just listing all of the things that make for invalid lycanthropes, we could be here for quite a while.

[Ksheep]

Winter werewolves are invalid Lycanthropes
Winter wolf is not an animal, but a magical beast

Isn't Winter Werewolf from Dungeon Magazine? Doesn't that put it on kinda shaky ground to begin with? Also, looks like it was from one of the 3.0 issues, not 3.5… was Winter Wolf a magical beast in 3.0? Did lycanthropes have to be animals in 3.0, or were magical beasts allowed?