Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

[Aharon]

Indeed. That one's simple enough to fix. On the subject of something not so simple, what happens when an Ur-Priest casts miracle? It's supposed to be a petition to your deity for aid, but that doesn't really work here.

He only reaches the automatic helpline instead of the god and gets colon cancer instead of cure serious wounds?

[TuggyNE]

Two this time. Specialist wizards are capable of activating all spell trigger and spell completion items of banned schools just fine — with the trifling exception of wands and scrolls, but notably not staffs.

And, while longbows are not usable from horseback, composite longbows are.

[Andvare]

And, while longbows are not usable from horseback, composite longbows are.

Which does make some sense, in that the Welsh Longbow is rather long (2 meters), and it is probably the model used. Whereas the composite bow bit is probably modelled after the Mongol Bow, which is closer to 1 meter in length.
The composite bow is also the one used historically on horsies.

Edit: What is strange, is that the Longbow doesn't get a strength score.

[TuggyNE]

Which does make some sense, in that the Welsh Longbow is rather long (2 meters), and it is probably the model used. Whereas the composite bow bit is probably modelled after the Mongol Bow, which is closer to 1 meter in length.
The composite bow is also the one used historically on horsies.

Edit: What is strange, is that the Longbow doesn't get a strength score.

I'd submit the Mongol bow would be better modeled as a composite shortbow.

[Andvare]

I'd submit the Mongol bow would be better modeled as a composite shortbow.

Sure, the problem lies more in the odd classification of bows in D&D. But then, most weapons are oddly categorized in D&D.

[Talderas]

Rage Mage, like Bladesinger, can quicken a spell without adjusting the spells level or casting time.

This is not a dysfunction. This is another situation where they're slightly overloading terminology and people thinking from a wizard centric world. The statement for bladesinger and rage mage is applying to the costs of using metamagic and not the spell itself.

Sorcerers and Bards
Sorcerers and bards choose spells as they cast them. They can choose when they cast their spells whether to apply their metamagic feats to improve them. As with other spellcasters, the improved spell uses up a higher-level spell slot. But because the sorcerer or bard has not prepared the spell in a metamagic form in advance, he must apply the metamagic feat on the spot. Therefore, such a character must also take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than he does to cast a regular spell. If the spell’s normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn’t the same as a 1-round casting time.)

For a spell with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the spell.

The bladesinger and rage mages abilities let you ignore the bolded clause.

[Fax Celestis]

The bladesinger and rage mages abilities let you ignore the bolded clause.

They also make you ignore this bolded clause:

Quicken Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit
Casting a quickened spell is an swift action. You can perform another action, even casting another spell, in the same round as you cast a quickened spell. You may cast only one quickened spell per round. A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full round action cannot be quickened. A quickened spell uses up a spell slot four levels higher than the spell’s actual level. Casting a quickened spell doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.

Special
This feat can’t be applied to any spell cast spontaneously (including sorcerer spells, bard spells, and cleric or druid spells cast spontaneously), since applying a metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell automatically increases the casting time to a full-round action.

[Talderas]

They also make you ignore this bolded clause:

No they don't. It's an overloaded term, which can be difficult to properly parse. However in both the case of the rage mage (spell fury) and bladesinger (song of celerity) the ability in question is applying to the usage of a metamagic feat and not the effects.

a rage mage can quicken one spell of 4th level or lower (as if she had used the Quicken Spell feat), but without adjusting the spell's level or casting time.

[nedz]

No they don't. It's an overloaded term, which can be difficult to properly parse. However in both the case of the rage mage (spell fury) and bladesinger (song of celerity) the ability in question is applying to the usage of a metamagic feat and not the effects.

Then the spell would still be 4 levels higher, since that's part of Quicken.

Look, we all get the RAI, it's the RAW we are commenting on — and yes we are being pedantic, that's also the point.

[Fax Celestis]

a rage mage can quicken one spell of 4th level or lower (as if she had used the Quicken Spell feat), but without adjusting the spell's level or casting time.

A rage mage's quickened spell does not adjust the spell's casting time. Therefore, it takes its standard acting time, which is functionally identical to not quickening the spell.

[Svata]

Title of the next thread, there? "Dysfunctional Rules V: Yes, its Pedantic, That's the Point"

[Talderas]

Then the spell would still be 4 levels higher, since that's part of Quicken.

Look, we all get the RAI, it's the RAW we are commenting on — and yes we are being pedantic, that's also the point.

The context of the ability is very clearly stated within RAW. It defines the adjustment of casting time in conjunction with the spell level increase for using metamagic.

When you use a metamagic feat you pay a cost of increasing the spell level and increasing the casting time to a full round if it's spontaneous. You then apply the effects of the metamagic afterwards which is not part of the usage of the feat. In fact, the only reason quicken doesn't work with spontaneous casting is because of the clause within quicken spell that states it doesn't work precisely because using metamagic increases the casting time to a full round action. Without that clause, a sponateous caster would be permitted to quicken spells.

The key word within the bladesinger and rage mage abilities is that the lack of alteration of spell level or casting time is that that you are using the ability as if you used the metamagic feat, hence the context being applied is strictly dealing with the cost of using metamagic and not the effects of that use.

[Fax Celestis]

The context of the ability is very clearly stated within RAW. It defines the adjustment of casting time in conjunction with the spell level increase for using metamagic.

When you use a metamagic feat you pay a cost of increasing the spell level and increasing the casting time to a full round if it's spontaneous. You then apply the effects of the metamagic afterwards which is not part of the usage of the feat. In fact, the only reason quicken doesn't work with spontaneous casting is because of the clause within quicken spell that states it doesn't work precisely because using metamagic increases the casting time to a full round action. Without that clause, a sponateous caster would be permitted to quicken spells.

The key word within the bladesinger and rage mage abilities is that the lack of alteration of spell level or casting time is that that you are using the ability as if you used the metamagic feat, hence the context being applied is strictly dealing with the cost of using metamagic and not the effects of that use.

This would be true if the ability referenced "increasing" casting time: it does not. Instead, it references "adjusting", which is something that Quicken quite explicitly does.

[NeoPhoenix0]

The issue here is that it doesn't say something like "you can quicken a spell without increasing the casting time if you cast it spontaneously". Instead it just says no change devoid of modifiers. The intent is perfectly clear, but the words themselves tells us something else.

Title of the next thread, there? "Dysfunctional Rules V: Yes, its Pedantic, That's the Point"

Not bad, but somehow I think there is a snappier line there. I'll see if I can come up with something.

[Menzath]

a rage mage can quicken one spell of 4th level or lower (as if she had used the Quicken Spell feat), but without adjusting the spell's level or casting time.

I think that WoTC is goof balls and that sentence was meant for Spontaneous casters since metamagic normally changes cast time to full round actions unless specifically stated.

Edit: Ninjar'd

[nedz]

Illumian Naenhoon has similar wording though you can apply it to any metamagic, so it's only dysfunctional on Quicken.

[nedz]

Illumian Final Utterance – when an Illumian dies, “words” trapped in his/her body are released for 1 round per HD.

Since speaking is a free action, a NI number of words can be monologued.

[Curmudgeon]

Since speaking is a free action, a NI number of words can be monologued.

round

A 6-second unit of game time used to manage combat. Every combatant may take at least one action every round.

Free Action

Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free.

The rules say that a NI number of words in 6 seconds is bogus.

[GlorinSteampike]

The rules say that a NI number of words in 6 seconds is bogus.

Can I steal that for a signature please?

[Spore]

You cannot dismiss certain "polymorph self" spells like Vermin shape. Beast shape and elemental body is juuust fine.

Kafka anyone?

[TuggyNE]

You cannot dismiss certain "polymorph self" spells like Vermin shape. Beast shape and elemental body is juuust fine.

Kafka anyone?

Duuuude. That's uncanny.

[Andezzar]

You cannot dismiss certain "polymorph self" spells like Vermin shape. Beast shape and elemental body is juuust fine.

I think you mixed something up there. Vermin Shape and Beast Shape modify Wild Shape, which can be dismissed:

The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.

Elemental body is a spell with a duration of 1h/level, without a (D).

Additionally Wild Shape in 3.5 is based on alternate form, not polymorph self (which does not even exist in 3.5).

This ability functions like the alternate form special ability, except as noted here.

[Andvare]

I think you mixed something up there. Vermin Shape and Beast Shape modify Wild Shape, which can be dismissed:

Elemental body is a spell with a duration of 1h/level, without a (D).

Additionally Wild Shape in 3.5 is based on alternate form, not polymorph self (which does not even exist in 3.5).

I think he is refering to the Pathfinder version of Vermin Shape, which do have a 1 minute/level, and not a duration of 1 min./level (D).

[Snowbluff]

The rules say that a NI number of words in 6 seconds is bogus.

Actually not RAW. No number is given, and reasonable is subjective.

Not that I have had villains monologue in the middle of fights or anything like that.

[Andezzar]

The point is that the DM is explicitly given the authority to arbitrarily decide what is too much.

[Snowbluff]

Yes, but that's outside the boundaries of RAW. Remember the Golden Rule? Making assumptions on that doesn't work out.

[Andezzar]

Thus the safe assumption in a RAW context would be to not get any free action at all - or maybe one. More are not guaranteed.

[Snowbluff]

And that's a matter of personal taste. It says 1 or more in the SRD, which means you many take any number. Having only 1 free action has game wide implications that you are not capable of resolving easily.

Essentially the essence of the argument I just made, with an example provided by you.

[nedz]

The rules say that a NI number of words in 6 seconds is bogus.

AFAIK There is no RAW definition of Reasonable, so it's all Rule 0

I've certainly had 5 minute monologues from NPCs thrown at me — as a free action.

[Ksheep]

AFAIK There is no RAW definition of Reasonable, so it's all Rule 0

I've certainly had 5 minute monologues from NPCs thrown at me — as a free action.

That's when you say "I'm sorry, I didn't quite catch that. Could you possibly speak a bit slower next time?" When the DM asks for clarification, just point out that said NPC crammed a 5 minute speech into a few seconds.