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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default For thy sins, I cast thee out! [spell] [PEACH]

    Excommunication

    (Aligned as per deity)

    Level: Cleric 3

    Components: V, S, DF
    Casting Time: 10 minutes
    Range: same plane
    Effect: Excommunicates one divine character
    Save: special
    Spell resistance: no
    Duration: Permanent
    Excommunication is imposed by the target’s church in a ceremony performed by an ordained priest of that church. The target is symbolically and actually placed outside the protection of the patron god. An Excommunicated target is treated as having lost two levels of experience for the purposes of determining special divine class abilities. Spells are granted and cast as if two levels lower. Turning or Rebuking Undead functions at two levels lower. All other level dependent features, such as feats, skill points, hit points, saves etc, are uneffected. The target knows she has been Excommunicated.
    A target with a higher divine caster level than the caster is allowed a Will save to negate the effect. Thus a 12th level Paladin (caster level 6th) targeted by a 5th level Cleric of the same church is allowed a Will save, but if the same 5th level Cleric were to have the alignment domain of the patron deity (and thus cast as one level higher), the Paladin would not get to make a save.

    Members of other religions, no matter how similar, may not be Excommunicated. The spell simply fails. The caster is not aware of the success or failure of the spell. The effects of this spell are removed by an Atonement spell only if the Atonement is cast by a member of the same religion of higher level than the caster of the Excommunication.

    Divine Focus: An order signed by the ultimate ecclesiastical leader of the religion, or a specifically appointed agent thereof, without which, the ceremony has no effect. For example, a national sovreign ceremoniously called "Leader of the Faith" cannot provide such an order, it must come from the church's divine leader.
    The intent of this spell is to hold some political fear over those characters in divine orders, and to provide an in-game reasoning for the punishment of aberrant Clerical behaviour.

    As it can only be cast by clerics of the same religious order, I've levelled it at 3rd, despite it's horrible awesomeness. Is that still too low? I don't want to nerf the spell, I'd rather raise the level.
    Last edited by Altair_the_Vexed; 2006-12-29 at 08:05 PM. Reason: fangthane's point & my mistake

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: For thy sins, I cast thee out! [spell] [PEACH]

    I'd change spell resistance to no and save to special.

    If the target has a higher caster level than the spell's caster, vis-a-vis the deity in question, a will save should be allowed to negate the effect. Further, the spell should count as good, evil, lawful or chaotic as per the deity's descriptor and domains (so casters who pick those domains have a casting edge with this spell too)
    Don't bother trying to appeal to my better nature; I don't have one.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: For thy sins, I cast thee out! [spell] [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by fangthane View Post
    I'd change spell resistance to no and save to special.

    If the target has a higher caster level than the spell's caster, vis-a-vis the deity in question, a will save should be allowed to negate the effect. Further, the spell should count as good, evil, lawful or chaotic as per the deity's descriptor and domains (so casters who pick those domains have a casting edge with this spell too)
    That's a very nice point, fangthane, I like it.

    *revises OP*

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: For thy sins, I cast thee out! [spell] [PEACH]

    I would also allow atonement to be cast by members of other faiths(if the character converts). This way if a Paladin become angry and change alinment, become a black gaurd, and after that gain back his/her ablities

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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: For thy sins, I cast thee out! [spell] [PEACH]

    Mmm, that's a good point; perhaps a note to the effect that the affected caster may join another deity's clergy via atonement and that the penalty is revoked unless also applied by his new "friends."
    Don't bother trying to appeal to my better nature; I don't have one.

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    Default Re: For thy sins, I cast thee out! [spell] [PEACH]

    Hmm. I'm not sure I like this. Excommunication really ought to be a total loss of divine class features, as happens to characters who violate their deity's requirements. Since such a violation is considered an atonable offence, excommunication should be as severe (if you consider it to be undoable, which is the historical political reality) or worse (if permanent, as I understand it was intended).

    I think excommunication has potential as a spell, a kind of counterpart to atonement, but it really ought to be worse than this. This isn't 'you're out of the church', this is 'you're back to scrubbing boards with the novices'.

    (And you get a will save! You don't have to much worry about the level if you make it such that it can only be cast on a character who's already lost divine abilities through misconduct, and perhaps only with divine assent. And with divine assent, that will save should be cut out. Unless, y'know, you're a god yourself.)
    I support paladins and the alignment system.

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    Default Re: For thy sins, I cast thee out! [spell] [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Peregrine View Post
    Hmm. I'm not sure I like this. Excommunication really ought to be a total loss of divine class features, as happens to characters who violate their deity's requirements. Since such a violation is considered an atonable offence, excommunication should be as severe (if you consider it to be undoable, which is the historical political reality) or worse (if permanent, as I understand it was intended).

    I think excommunication has potential as a spell, a kind of counterpart to atonement, but it really ought to be worse than this. This isn't 'you're out of the church', this is 'you're back to scrubbing boards with the novices'.

    (And you get a will save! You don't have to much worry about the level if you make it such that it can only be cast on a character who's already lost divine abilities through misconduct, and perhaps only with divine assent. And with divine assent, that will save should be cut out. Unless, y'know, you're a god yourself.)
    I get what you're saying, but this is a spell used by mortals to punish a character, not the god of the church casting the character out. If you are truly thrown out of the grace of your god, you get no save, you lose ALL your spells and powers - it says so in the PHB, page 33: "Ex-Clerics". The purpose of this spell is to have a mortal avenue for punishing within the church, rather than the absolute divine retribution of stripping all powers. Because the spell is mortal, it isn't as powerful as the divine punishment. Of course, an Excommunicated character may wish to convert to another faith after such a punishment...

    MeklorIlavator - Conversion to another faith was something that I was thinking about last night - how does that normally work? Can Clerics and Paladins just switch deities with no penalty? That doesn't feel right.

    Yes, a Blackguard can use their Paladin levels, but that is because "those who have tasted the light of goodness and justice and turned away make the foulest villains" and "Evil deities like nothing more than to see a good heart corrupted" (DMG pg 183).

    From reading the PHB entry on Clerics and Atonement, it looks like a Cleric could decide to follow a new god of the same alignment (but different domains) without penalty - or indeed that they could reject gods altogether and follow their alignment without losing spells. Or do these decisions count as "violating the code of the deity"? In which case, the cleric loses ALL divine abilities until Atoned - but the wording of the Atonement spell appears to suggest it ought to be cast by the Cleric's superiors...

    Can anyone point me at any other rules that have been written on the subject?
    Last edited by Altair_the_Vexed; 2006-12-30 at 06:43 AM. Reason: clarity

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    Default Re: For thy sins, I cast thee out! [spell] [PEACH]

    Firstly, I'd call it at least 4th, probably 5th level. Secondly, I suggest that it only work in campaign worlds (like Eberron) where the gods do NOT walk among men - on Greyhawk or Faerun, for instance, I doubt the gods would let mere mortals dictate who is and who isn't part of thier church.
    Mandible Bones, the Worst Pirate Ever.
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    Default Re: For thy sins, I cast thee out! [spell] [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Altair_the_Vexed View Post
    I get what you're saying, but this is a spell used by mortals to punish a character, not the god of the church casting the character out. If you are truly thrown out of the grace of your god, you get no save, you lose ALL your spells and powers - it says so in the PHB, page 33: "Ex-Clerics". The purpose of this spell is to have a mortal avenue for punishing within the church, rather than the absolute divine retribution of stripping all powers. Because the spell is mortal, it isn't as powerful as the divine punishment. Of course, an Excommunicated character may wish to convert to another faith after such a punishment...
    This could just come down to a difference of opinion on the nature of divine spells, the functions of clerics and the meaning of excommunication, in which case you're right in your game and I'm right in mine. But I'll try and explain myself a bit further.

    Clerics derive their spells from their god. Divine magic really is divine, not mortal, in that regard. Mortals may cast it, but if the casting were flagrantly contradicting the will of their god, they couldn't do it. This goes double for certain spells that imply a much more direct involvement of the deity -- the cleric is really just asking, rather than casting. Atonement is one of these. Excommunication would be another. Casting a spell to cut off a person for their sins, implies that the deity wants that person cut off for their sins. (Excommunication was used as a political tool, but a political excommunication in D&D would not be a divine spell. Excommunication by magic implies the deity's assent, which is much closer to its intended meaning: you are cut off from divine care and protection.)

    Actually, I think I see the sort of rationale you might possibly be using -- the sort of setting where such an excommunication would fit. If we have something more like medieval Europe than traditional D&D, where there are several independent (competing) churches in the service of the same god, one church could excommunicate a cleric without that cleric actually being cut off from the deity. But this implies that the deity is not very involved in what is done with the divine power it grants to clerics. I don't think this is compatible with standard D&D, where clerics get their spells because they are directly connected to their deity, and so churches are pretty much accurate servants of the divine will -- such a church couldn't use such a spell without the deity's permission. (I understand Eberron does have a looser cleric-god connection, where divine magic does not imply divine sanction.)
    I support paladins and the alignment system.

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    Default Re: For thy sins, I cast thee out! [spell] [PEACH]

    It appears that my notions of divine magic and gods in gameplay are not the same as what some people take to be standard D&D.

    I derive most of my playing experience from the 80s and 90s, when TSR were trying to put distance between their game and certain objections raised by certain religious groups. During this period, it was suggested that Clerics gain their powers from sources that were specifically not gods in any modern or real-world sense.

    As a result, I've always played games where the mortal, political power of a church is not necessarily reflected by any manifestation of the patron deity. In such a world, a Cleric may still lose the powers they pray to their god for if they seriously break that god's rules, because they lose faith.

    So, yes, it seems that a spell like this has no place in a game where gods are a real, in-play force. In that sort of game, of course the gods would object, the gods would smite breakers of their code and reward those who followed it - and this spell would not be castable.

    In Eberron and other, less divinely influenced settings, the church dictates what the god says - and so this spell becomes a tool of the Patriarchs to keep their priest in line.

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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: For thy sins, I cast thee out! [spell] [PEACH]

    Something else to bear in mind with respect to this idea though is that while, granted, it's a mortal actually casting the spell, the high priest of a given religious order has to sign off, for one thing, and the deity must grant the spell in addition. I think a case could be made that it's a case of the High Priest effectively saying "Hey, Lord, sorry to bother you but there's this guy we really dislike and he's been doing some stuff we feel doesn't really serve Your interests. As long as You don't have a particular purpose in mind for him, we're planning to Excommunicate him in Your name." If a deity feels that the high priest is being an idiot, at the DM's discretion (and honestly, who else would be using this spell in the first place if not the DM) he can be Zotted (for a complete understanding of Zotting, see BC comics) easily enough.
    Don't bother trying to appeal to my better nature; I don't have one.

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    Default Re: For thy sins, I cast thee out! [spell] [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Altair_the_Vexed View Post
    So, yes, it seems that a spell like this has no place in a game where gods are a real, in-play force. In that sort of game, of course the gods would object, the gods would smite breakers of their code and reward those who followed it - and this spell would not be castable.
    Right. That's about what I was guessing. (I would still think it would be castable, but it'd have much harsher penalties, and would be essentially a channelling of divine condemnation. Your god smites you, but he uses another cleric as the zapping tool.)

    In either case, I would recommend a higher level for the spell, to put it in the hands of the senior hierarchs.

    Oh, by the way. I'm not sure 'divine character' is the best term to describe characters with levels in classes that grant divine spells and/or divinely-granted class features.
    I support paladins and the alignment system.

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    Default Re: For thy sins, I cast thee out! [spell] [PEACH]

    I think the level is fine. While the spell has a rather powerful effect, and it does go up as one goes up in level, its material requirements make it a hard spell to cast at a whim. That's a fairly reasonable balancing act.

    Divine Focus: An order signed by the ultimate ecclesiastical leader of the religion, or a specifically appointed agent thereof, without which, the ceremony has no effect. For example, a national sovereign ceremoniously called "Leader of the Faith" cannot provide such an order, it must come from the church's divine leader.
    I'd also step in to bring about a Decree spell, a high-leveled spell that gives a document "divine right." One could conceivably create a broader use for the Decree spell, just can't think of any at the moment. A Decree could also be inscribed as a Scroll, but when cast it casts the Decree of the maker of that scroll--this gives some autonomy for a local bishop with the Patriarch's Decree to excommunicate a member (perhaps the Patriarch'd be smart and just create a Stamp of Decree).

    But besides that aside, I like this spell. :)
    — Nicolaos of Aepternacos


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    Default Re: For thy sins, I cast thee out! [spell] [PEACH]

    Well, I forget if this is in the books, but here is how I would do it.

    First off, I would make a cleric switching deities find a higher leveled priest of that deity and convince him to cast atonement. The rules for such a spell are pretty specific, but as soon as it is cast, the divinest losses all spell casting ability until the quest is complete. A really high level character(epic) who could not find a suitable cleric could find a way to commune directly with a deity to get the change(after all, the deity is the final word in its religion).

    Also, I would have two spells, one would be the current spell, but be called penance, while a second, higher level would be excommunicate, and it would sever all power, no save, but require the document and the deities favor.

    Also, penance would only require a document signed by the characters religious superior, and would have a appropriate penance for the character to accomplish for full recovery of powers.

    For the new excommunicate, I think it would have to have the wondrous item (nephestas contrat, I think) that basically makes a unbreakable contract with another, only this would say that Cleric X deserves this. Their should also be a way of restoring the characters power within the church(think epic quest), with the characters powers only working in specific point. This is probly a level 6 or higher spell(to foil break enchanment) that is undispelabel with normal means(it really just breaks the clerics connection to his deity, so it could have an instantaneous effect)

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