Bringing the tiers in line.

[CrazyYanmega]

I'm sorry, I didn't make myself clear: The way I would run it, Spellcasters have to craft their spells PER SPELL. As in each casting has to be crafted individually. This way spellcasters can keep their fun spells, but they have to be VERY careful in how they spend them. They will also be several levels behind their non-spellcaster allies, making the Quadratic Vs. Linear problem much more manageable.

[tricktroller]

That seems unnecessarily difficult. I understand the point is to give them less versatility, but I think that is the wrong direction for my group.

[VoxRationis]

I have an easy fix for wildshape, unless you have seen a real one, you cannot wildshape into it. No summoning critters so you can change into them later, you have to have seen it to change into it, you have to watch how it moves for at least 3 rounds and then you can write it on your list of things you can wildshape into like a spell book of creatures.

I like the idea of Divine metamagic but I think it will need to be reworked. I like that you can DMM a persistent spelled buff but I think it should be harder to do.

All non caster classes will get at least a 2 point per level skill boost to compensate and the class skills list will be removed, anyone can take anything, and certain skills will be grouped instead of being multiples.

Technically, that's not a fix: it's a rule. The PHB says that the druid can only wild shape into creatures from the area they're from. Now, that's not 100 percent the same thing, but I believe the assumption is that these creatures are ones the druid is familiar with due to being able to go out and encounter them.

[tricktroller]

No because currently you can bypass that with a high enough knowledge nature check. This would prevent people from magically knowing about things, and allow me to give them out as rewards for good behavior.

[VoxRationis]

The rules do not say that a Knowledge (nature) check can bypass this restriction, to the best of my knowledge and the SRD. If that is something your players have convinced you, I'm sorry, but that's not a rule.

[tricktroller]

No but you can use a knowledge check to know information about a specific creature right? So couldn't you use that to know about something like fleshraker? It doesn;t state that you have to be viewing one, it just says "specific"

[VoxRationis]

It says you have to be familiar with the creature. I know lots of things about D. melanogaster. However, I have seen them in person once, and would not consider myself "familiar" with it.

[tricktroller]

That little caveat is nice to know!

[Friv]

My instinct for balancing people, were I to want to, would be as follows:

1) Trim the skill list down to about 20-25 skills, so that skill-focused classes are better off.

Clerics: Not sure what the fast-and-dirty approach would be. Probably let them be spontaneous casters, but limit them to casting Domain spells and healing/harm spells plus an extra one or two spells per level, and limit them to the Wizard spells per day listed below.

Druids: Druids get the Bard spells known and per day, with their traditional spell list. It might not be enough, but it's enough for a quick-and-dirty hack down of their abilities.

Wizards: Remove all access to wands and scrolls, restrict them to four schools, remove school specialization, and slow down their spell progression so that they get the following spells per day:

Spoiler

Show

Level 1: 5 cantrips, 3 Level 1 spells
Level 2: 5 cantrips, 4 Level 1 spells
Level 3: 5 cantrips, 4 Level 1 spells, 1 Level 2 spell
Level 4: 5 cantrips, 4 Level 1 spells, 2 Level 2 spells
Level 5: 5 cantrips, 4 Level 1 spells, 3 Level 2 spells
Level 6: 5 cantrips, 4 Level 1 spells, 3 Level 2 spells, 1 Level 3 spell
Level 7: 5 cantrips, 4 Level 1 spells, 3 Level 2 spells, 2 Level 3 spells
Level 8: 5 cantrips, 4 Level 1 spells, 3 Level 2 spells, 3 Level 3 spells
After that: On odd levels, gain one casting of a new spell level. On even levels, gain one extra casting of your highest spell level per day.

Sorcerers: Same as the wizards. They trade not having to prepare spells for not getting free metamagic, and call it a day.

Monks: Play a swordsage.
Fighters: Play a warblade.
Paladins: Play a crusader.
Rogues: Whenever a rogue would gain Sneak Attack damage, they also gain a free skill trick (from Complete Scoundrel).

Really quick and dirty, mind you.

[tricktroller]

Is this tier 3?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...2#post17588432

[Angelalex242]

I don't know how long this would last, but I had an idea.

You get a Free ECL race equal to your Tier-1.

Wizards are stuck being humans or elves...
But Sorcerers can be Aasimar +1
Bards can be Drow +2
Barbarians can Half Dragon +3
Paladins can be Half Celestial +4
Samurai can have +5 ECL and maybe max stats just for fun.

Don't know how long that sort of balance might last, or what it does at each level, but I thought it might be fun for a while.

[Stella]

Specialization
1 Metamagic Focus: 1/day at 1st +1 per 6 levels, negate one metamagic cost increase on a single spell. This may not be combined with any other ability that reduces the cost of a metamagic feat, or any item that mimics one such as a rod of metamagic.

2 Crafting Focus: Gain crafting feats at each level they become available, but only feats out of the PHB. This nets 8 bonus feats. 1st Scribe scroll, 3rd brew potion, craft wondrous item, 5th craft wand, craft magic arms and armor, 9th craft rod, 12th craft staff craft ring.

3 Spell Focus: If a spell has a variable dice roll add your intelligence as a bonus. This does not include the dice roll to hit with a touch or ranged touch spell, only for effects like Fireball's d6 of damage dice or the d6 of damage dice on a ray of enfeeblement.

So what do you guys think?

I am hoping for solidly in Tier 3 with the new spell list I posted earlier in the thread, but I will post it again here

So, you have specialists and then you have specialization. I'd try to select terms which have less of an overlap. We already have the multiple use of the word "level" to deal with.

How does a Wizard select a specialization? Are they limited to one? At what level do they pick one or more specializations?

Eliminating Wizard bonus spells per level for a high Int seems very counter-intuitive to me. Especially after reading your Tier 3 Ranger write-up, which gives Rangers the class ability of spell casting at 1st level but which specifically grants the Ranger 0 1st level spells per day until they reach 3rd level and which details how at 1st and 2nd level the Ranger can cast a number of spells per day equal to the bonus spells a high Wisdom may grant them.

Maybe give the Thaumaturgist bonus spells for Int instead of the 1.5x spells/day multiplier?

[tricktroller]

Haha well this biggest issue is I went from one direction to a totally new direction with the T3 ranger and I am having a hard time picking between the two methods. The listing for the wizard is the 9 options you have at 1st level. You may only ever pick one item off of each of those lists and only at first level. Unfortunately in that original system the listings are backwards haha. They should have been specialization and and features in reversed order XD. Thanks for noticing my goof.

I think that having the base classes act the same will give me the stability I want in the T3 game while having every class conform to the Ranger's combat forms portion will give me the versatility I am looking for.

Each class advances the same for their normal class features but then get a subset of features that help them in other areas.

[aleucard]

Here's an idea for nerfing the dedicated casters (Wizards, Clerics, Druids, etc., not Sorcerers) that doesn't really get much 3.5 screen time but is almost a bog-standard fantasy trope outside.

Casting spells of high enough level to be effective takes time, and lots of it. While few spells will take longer than a couple rounds, the caster needs to come up with a method of GENERATING that extra time. Some spells are naturally quick (or at least, not so absurdly slow to cast), and a caster with decent mental faculties may be able to delay firing on at least one or two spells so they can be cast as a Standard (or even as part of another action in some cases), but these will be the exception, not the rule. Blasting spells and things of comparable level are going to be largely unaffected (most are conceptually simple, and thus take less time to accurately stitch together on the fly the way a Wizard does), but things like Summoning and Battlefield Control would probably eat up a sizable chunk of the fight time. One obvious benefit of this, as an aside; it gives more benefit to the Silent Spell metamagic; since most of the spells you'd want to cast into an ambush are now going to take several rounds to cast, you're an early warning if you can't cast noiselessly. It's much more low-key in general, too, which has other benefits.

[tricktroller]

I think that would be fun, but not really the concept I have in mind. I am generally hoping to keep the same mechanics, but change the spells and spells available to reduce their potency while not overly penalizing the caster. No one wants to sit out of the fight for 11 rounds.

[Komatik]

Set the big boom boom up as a background process ^^

[tricktroller]

What? Did you post in the wrong thread?

[tricktroller]

Tier 3 system - Fighter

Once I have these all done I will be posting a link list with all of them on their for ease of access.

[aleucard]

I think that would be fun, but not really the concept I have in mind. I am generally hoping to keep the same mechanics, but change the spells and spells available to reduce their potency while not overly penalizing the caster. No one wants to sit out of the fight for 11 rounds.

One good idea would be to give all/most of the Save-or-Die/Suck type spells gradual progression, comparable to HP but with different stats. This would probably need more math, but it would at least help that issue. BFC spells are almost universally more potent and in more situations than almost any other spell, but due to how the vast majority work, this wouldn't be as helpful. I really can't think of too many ways to nerf these aside from either using my increased-casting-time idea or switching to a heavily augmented Spell Point system and have spells assigned individual costs (not all equal-level spells are created equal, after all), maybe have some of the more annoying spells assigned odd skill/feat requirements, or PrC restricted.

[Stella]

Here's an idea for nerfing the dedicated casters (Wizards, Clerics, Druids, etc., not Sorcerers) that doesn't really get much 3.5 screen time but is almost a bog-standard fantasy trope outside.

Casting spells of high enough level to be effective takes time, and lots of it.

Like most generalizations, this one is wrong in so many cases that it just shouldn 't be made at all. REH may have had his wizards take a month to cast a spell, but there are a great number of fantasy authors who don't impose long "casting times" on their "spells."

Take Modesitt, for example. He has the Recluse series, the Spellsong series, and the Imager series. All with a different magic system, none of which use long casting times. And that's just one author and three different settings with three different magic systems.

Also, when a character in a novel takes a long time to cast a spell, she can't complain to the DM, or even the author. As others have pointed out, forcing the casters options in combat into being "I keep casting the spell I started casting a while ago" isn't much like fun and it will draw player complaints.

[aleucard]

Also, when a character in a novel takes a long time to cast a spell, she can't complain to the DM, or even the author. As others have pointed out, forcing the casters options in combat into being "I keep casting the spell I started casting a while ago" isn't much like fun and it will draw player complaints.

You have a better idea to bring the dedicated caster's power down to something more reasonable? The only other ideas I keep hearing involve the kind of retooling that entails the difference between 3.5 and Pathfinder, only more focused. That takes a LOT of man-hours to do to any degree of effectiveness, and for no monetary benefit to boot. There's only so much that people are willing to do for the fun of it and without reward.

[Captnq]

Actually, I've been giving this some thought lately. I know EXACTLY how to bring the T1 and T2 more in line with everyone else.

There are 3345 official WotC spells.

Get rid of about half of them. The Upper half. The awesome spells that rock my self-centered little world. If you only allow the average and lousy spells, All T1 and T2 classes become downgraded without needing to change any class.

Of course... Individually evaluating 3345 spells will take a while, and I'm only 40% done, but when I'm finished I feel that my rating system will allow for an instant downgrade of T1 and T2 classes. And it will be color coded for your ease of use.

[aleucard]

Actually, I've been giving this some thought lately. I know EXACTLY how to bring the T1 and T2 more in line with everyone else.

There are 3345 official WotC spells.

Get rid of about half of them. The Upper half. The awesome spells that rock my self-centered little world. If you only allow the average and lousy spells, All T1 and T2 classes become downgraded without needing to change any class.

Of course... Individually evaluating 3345 spells will take a while, and I'm only 40% done, but when I'm finished I feel that my rating system will allow for an instant downgrade of T1 and T2 classes. And it will be color coded for your ease of use.

I think a lot of people would be interested in that list. I'm interested in how you retain certain archetypes without making them as gimped by comparison as blasting is now.

[Stella]

You have a better idea to bring the dedicated caster's power down to something more reasonable?

Yes, I do. The reason Tier 1 classes are Tier 1 classes is that they have an enormous amount of flexibility. If the opponent is vulnerable to a specific attack, the Tier 1 classes can attack that vulnerability. They have a spell which involves a Will save, or a Fort save, or a Reflex save, or no save at all, depending on the vulnerabilities of the opponent, that opponent is toast. If the party challenge involves a specific skill, the Tier 1 caster is more likely to be able to overcome that skill challenge with a spell than the skill focused character. Etc., etc. This is the entire reason Tier 1 casters are Tier 1 casters: Because they can meet or exceed the class abilities of several other classes.

Bringing the dedicated caster's power down to something more reasonable involves reducing the dedicated caster's options. Which means reducing the number of spells they have to select from.

Which tricktroller did when he published a Wizard spell list of 8 generalist spells and 16 specialist spells per spell level. And while tricktroller did the work to publish his "better idea", plenty of people, myself included, had long ago recognized that the Tier 1 classes needed to have their options reduced in order to balance the classes. Note that forcing a longer casting time on those broad options isn't a valid reduction of the Tier 1 classes. Nor is making them pay to learn new spells. Nor any one of a number of suggested options which were intended to but which don't really limit the Tier 1 casters in play. Limiting their options, that is the only real solution, because that is the problem which needs to be solved.

You seem angry because I disagree with you that a system which requires caster to sit out a lot of rounds before bringing major pain against their enemies is a better system that one which allows a caster to act in each round with a balanced effect in each round measured against the martial classes. Don't be, that is not productive.

[tricktroller]

Do you guys like the reduced wizard and cleric spell lists?

T3 Wizard Spells
T3 Cleric Spells

Also here is my homebrew forum posting for the T3 system

The idea is to allow some cool stuff like polymorph, but only with monsters from the original monster manual, righteous might for war clerics etc, but to only allow those options for specific characters.

[Komatik]

What? Did you post in the wrong thread?

No. Just wanted to give a concrete example of the idea: Making big amazing high level brokenations take a long time to cast is a pretty great idea, makes them disruptable and such while keeping casters super dangerous. But sitting in place casting a spell is not very fun.

Solution: Turn the long casting time into a background process. Standard action to initiate or whatever, and then you have to channel for X rounds. The channel takes up no actions or a swift action or something, but limits you to casting lower-impact spells. But you can still contribute actively while the time bomb is ticking and position yourself to make the best use out of the bomb.

[tricktroller]

Oh gotcha. I can see that working with a casting time of 2-3 rounds tops anything beyond that would be a bit much. Maybe make a feat that reduces that time by a round as well.

[jiriku]

The only other ideas I keep hearing involve the kind of retooling that entails the difference between 3.5 and Pathfinder, only more focused. That takes a LOT of man-hours to do to any degree of effectiveness, and for no monetary benefit to boot. There's only so much that people are willing to do for the fun of it and without reward.

Some people have done exactly that (myself included). You could always just use the retoolings published here on the playground by people who have devoted the time and offered their work for free use by the community.

[tricktroller]

In all honesty, I do not mind the hours of work put into this. I enjoy it and the collaborative effort of the forums to make something that most everyone can agree is better.

My honest hope is that this system will be both balanced and fun. A lot of people have told me "4th edition is perfectly balanced." TO which I reply, "yes but it really is just an MMO in tabletop format."

I never cared for 4th, but I did like some of the things that they espoused with that edition.

[tricktroller]

Ok so how does everyone feel about this for spellcasting time;

Spells take Spell level divided by 3 rounds (rounded down) to cast. So
1st-5th level spells 1 round
6th-8th level spells 2 rounds
9th level spells 3 rounds.

This adds in the necessary slowing and disruption for higher level effects but doesn't do so in a drastic way and allows characters to cast 1st through 5th level spells in one standard action.

The rounds after the first standard action would require a swift action to maintain concentration and you can only maintain one spell at a time.

This is just a thought, let me know what you guys think!