Shadowrun Topic(Talk & Questions)

[Roncorps]

We we're takking about noise earlier and I didn't saw that the rule was more in 4th/5th. In 3rd, the one I play, is there something like that (noise rule for rigger) ? I could probably, and easely, do a house rule if it isn't.

I know that dumpshock is there, so good for hitting the rigger at distance by using his/her drones.

There's remote-control network infiltration too (Rigger 3, p.36) and MIJI (ibid. p, 37), but it's more rigger vs rigger.

The only thing I see equal to noise, is ECM, but it's more about jamming the signal than "losing it due to distance". Even that, as I read, is more about not being detected (ECM upgrading the signature to counter missile test or detection test).

[Lord Torath]

In the 2E Grimoire, the stats for true form insect spirits have two options listed for body separated by a slash. Is that for before/after a queen has been summoned? Or does it mean something else?

[comicshorse]

In the 2E Grimoire, the stats for true form insect spirits have two options listed for body separated by a slash. Is that for before/after a queen has been summoned? Or does it mean something else?

Er....................
The only time I've seen the two options for body like that the second stat indicated an armour rating for the critter (both ballistic and Impact). The only thing I can think is it indicates how much natural armour the creature has while manifest but thats really just an educated guess

[Lord Torath]

You're probably right. That's what it mentions in the SRII rulebook about critter stats (p232). That makes those bugs a lot nastier in astral combat. The section on maghic and astral combat says they get their armor in astral space, too. Better stock up on Ares Squirt and some insecticide....

Thanks!

[Crasical]

So what do you expect to see out of your group's hacker in 4e? I've been trying to put one together and I'm not sure what the line of 'competent' is for what I should be able to do.

HACKING STUFF

• Rating 4 in Electronics and Cracking skill groups
• Rating 2 Encephalon and a Simsense Booster
• Most programs are at rating 4
• Response/System 5, Firewall 6 commlink
• Ergonomic ECCM and Biofeedback Filter
• Running IC with Attack 3, and ergonomic Analyze and Stealth
• Agent running Disarm and Defuse can be loaded to deal with Databombs
• Exploit has Mute functionality for Hacking On The Fly

OTHER INTERESTING SKILLS/GEAR

• 7-9 dice to fast talk/bargain/talk smack over the matrix
• Rating 3 skillwire system and programs, giving him 7-8 dice in Pistols, Unarmed, Climbing, Running, and Infiltration
• Set of 4 spyballs with Low-Light camera, Spatial-Recognizer microphone, Radio Signal Scanners, and Personality Software. These are given to teammates to give them sensory gear to plug into...
• ... the Rating 2 tacnet. If all 4 balls are in play, +2 dice to any teammates in the 'net.
• Shock Glove and Ares Predator IV
• Pretty standard tag eraser, fake SIN and licences
• Pretty awesome monowheel motorcycle.
• Pretty crappy wage-slave corporate appartment

This seem about right for a pretty standard hacking-person at chargen, or does it look deficient? I'm happy to answer any questions.

[Grytorm]

What kind of system does Shadowrun use? I leafed through the core rulebook in a store and it had a horrible table of contents and I didn't feel like I had the time to figure it out. So I'm just curious about the game.

[Necroticplague]

What kind of system does Shadowrun use? I leafed through the core rulebook in a store and it had a horrible table of contents and I didn't feel like I had the time to figure it out. So I'm just curious about the game.

It uses a success dice pool system kinda like storyteller. Your relevant stats are added together, and you roll that many die. Try and get at least one (usually) of the die to beat the target number. Any targets bigger than six means you only succeed if you roll a six, then re-roll it and add it (ex:target 20 requires you to roll three 6s in a row, than a 2 or more (do note that this means target numbers of something times six and one greater are the same, since you can't roll a zero)). Actions opposed by something are determined by seeing who can hit the target more with the relevant skill.

[Tome]

What kind of system does Shadowrun use? I leafed through the core rulebook in a store and it had a horrible table of contents and I didn't feel like I had the time to figure it out. So I'm just curious about the game.

Assuming you mean 4e or 5e.

Most rolls are Attribute+Skill+Modifiers, rolling a number of d6s equal to that total and counting any roll of 5 or a 6 as a 'Hit'. To succeed on a roll you need to get Hits equal to the Threshold of the task. Opposed rolls are won by whoever gets the most Hits.

It uses a success dice pool system kinda like storyteller. Your relevant stats are added together, and you roll that many die. Try and get at least one (usually) of the die to beat the target number. Any targets bigger than six means you only succeed if you roll a six, then re-roll it and add it (ex:target 20 requires you to roll three 6s in a row, than a 2 or more (do note that this means target numbers of something times six and one greater are the same, since you can't roll a zero)). Actions opposed by something are determined by seeing who can hit the target more with the relevant skill.

That's what I assume is 3e or earlier. The current edition does not work that way.

[Coidzor]

There's no mixture of magic and technology in setting, right? Is a specific reason for that given anywhere?

[Necroticplague]

There's no mixture of magic and technology in setting, right? Is a specific reason for that given anywhere?

Cybermancy would like to have a word with you.

Out of universe, because letting some magic combine with some tech would allow for some ridiculous(ly potent) combinations (like if you could enchant a gun, or god help you, a grenade launcher). In universe, its because magic simply has its own way of operating, mostly based on how thee Astral acts upon other things in it. As a result, objects with little presence (or even a specific anti-presence) are difficult to make work with it. Guns can't be enchanted because improving their presence does nothing (though technically, I guess you could make a weapon focus gun for pistol-whipping), 'ware can't be enchanted because that would wreck merry hell with someone's essence once it was put in (like a magic rejection), and computer systems can't be enchanted because the flow of electricity and communications doesn't transfer magical energy.

[Coidzor]

Cybermancy would like to have a word with you.

Out of universe, because letting some magic combine with some tech would allow for some ridiculous(ly potent) combinations (like if you could enchant a gun, or god help you, a grenade launcher). In universe, its because magic simply has its own way of operating, mostly based on how thee Astral acts upon other things in it. As a result, objects with little presence (or even a specific anti-presence) are difficult to make work with it. Guns can't be enchanted because improving their presence does nothing (though technically, I guess you could make a weapon focus gun for pistol-whipping), 'ware can't be enchanted because that would wreck merry hell with someone's essence once it was put in (like a magic rejection), and computer systems can't be enchanted because the flow of electricity and communications doesn't transfer magical energy.

I haven't encountered that before, hence the question. Unless it's the thing that allows a character to have a lot of cyberware but also be a potent magic-user, in which case I've heard allusions to it, but never any actual terms.

So objects have their own equivalent to essence then, for most of the in-world explanation?

[Telok]

Most rolls are Attribute+Skill+Modifiers, rolling a number of d6s equal to that total and counting any roll of 5 or a 6 as a 'Hit'. To succeed on a roll you need to get Hits equal to the Threshold of the task. Opposed rolls are won by whoever gets the most Hits.

Wait-a-sec...

You mean that on average 3 dice equals a 'hit' and your target number is now the number of 'hits' needed?

IF dice/3 >= threshold THEN you win ELSE you lose.
or
IF your dice/3 >= threshold AND your dice/3 >= opponent dice/3 by more than 1.5 THEN you win ELSE you lose.

Is that right? Then generally once you're over 12 dice you don't actually need to roll most of the time because every additional die just brings you closer to the average. Why are they using a buckets-o-dice system with an "average of rolls" task resolution? They have to know the statistics of this, it just forces average events and negates outliers as the character gets better at a task.

Is there any discussion in the (new) books about what advantages this method has over the old method?

[The Random NPC]

Wait-a-sec...

You mean that on average 3 dice equals a 'hit' and your target number is now the number of 'hits' needed?

IF dice/3 >= threshold THEN you win ELSE you lose.
or
IF your dice/3 >= threshold AND your dice/3 >= opponent dice/3 by more than 1.5 THEN you win ELSE you lose.

Is that right? Then generally once you're over 12 dice you don't actually need to roll most of the time because every additional die just brings you closer to the average. Why are they using a buckets-o-dice system with an "average of rolls" task resolution? They have to know the statistics of this, it just forces average events and negates outliers as the character gets better at a task.

Is there any discussion in the (new) books about what advantages this method has over the old method?

I'm not entirely sure I know what you are asking, but that seems about right. Except you only need 1 success above your opponent to win. Also some stuff has a degrees of success thing going on.

[Tome]

Wait-a-sec...

You mean that on average 3 dice equals a 'hit' and your target number is now the number of 'hits' needed?

IF dice/3 >= threshold THEN you win ELSE you lose.
or
IF your dice/3 >= threshold AND your dice/3 >= opponent dice/3 by more than 1.5 THEN you win ELSE you lose.

Is that right? Then generally once you're over 12 dice you don't actually need to roll most of the time because every additional die just brings you closer to the average. Why are they using a buckets-o-dice system with an "average of rolls" task resolution? They have to know the statistics of this, it just forces average events and negates outliers as the character gets better at a task.

Is there any discussion in the (new) books about what advantages this method has over the old method?

I... have no idea what you're asking. I've never played 1e/2e/3e, so it's possible you're talking about some aspect of those systems that are unfamiliar to me and is not present in 4e/5e.

Can we get someone who played the old editions in here to explain this?

EDIT Here, maybe some examples would help?

Spoiler: Examples

Show

My 5e adept, Ruth, is sneaking into a Renraku facility as part of a run. She's pretty good at this, with an Agility of 8, a Sneaking skill of 6 and the Catlike quality for another 2 dice. In total she rolls 16 dice, as befits a well-built character with stealth as a primary focus.

The guards on the facility are fairly low quality with minimal training. They have an Intuition of 3 and a Perception skill of 2 with no other bonuses. They roll 5 dice. Worse, they're taking a -1 penalty because Ruth is sticking to the shadows and another -1 for distance, putting them at 3 dice. The chance of them spotting the superhuman sneak at night and from a distance is so low the GM doesn't even bother rolling for them unless Ruth rolls badly or glitches. Even the characters who haven't invested heavily in stealth (five or so dice for a character who has put the bare minimum investment in) has good odds of sneaking past them.

However, there's a complication. A Renraku bigwig is on site, flanked by a pair of Red Samurai for bodyguards. The Red Samurai have an Intuition of 5, a Perception of 6 and some fancy Cybereyes that will eliminate most or all of the environmental penalties. They're rolling 11 dice versus Ruth's 16.

The first Red Samurai rolls 1,1,2,3,3,4,4,5,6,6,6. He has 4 hits.
The second Red Samurai rolls 1,1,1,1,1,2,2,3,3,3,5. He has 1 hit, and came very close to glitching.

Ruth rolls 1,2,2,2,2,2,2,3,3,3,3,3,4,4,4,6. This is a terrible roll, and she only has 1 hit. The Red Samurai spot her and I begin swearing vehemently at my dice. It's so low even the standard corporate security could probably spot her.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Later in the run, which has gone horribly wrong due to Ruth being spotted, the decker takes a nasty hit in a shoot out. Fortunately, Ruth hangs around with the Black Crescent when she's not running the shadows and has some First Aid skill and a decent Medkit. Her Logic is 3, her First Aid skill is 4 and she has a Rating 6 Medkit for another 6 dice. Her total dice pool is 13, though there's a -2 penalty because she's doing this in the back of the rigger's van whilst he tries to evade pursuit, leaving her at 11 dice. Using First Aid has a threshold of 2, requiring at least 2 hits to succeed, and heals a box of damage for every additional hit beyond that - you need to score at least three hits to actually heal someone.

She rolls to fix up the decker and gets 1,1,2,2,3,3,5,5,5,6,6. She has 5 hits. The decker is no longer bleeding out and heals three boxes of damage (out of his maximum of ten).

----------------------------------------------------------------------

After the run, the group heads out to meet the Johnson and collect their pay. The meet is in a club and everyone but the Face is left to mingle whilst he tries to squeeze those last few nuyen out of their employer. Unfortunately, Ruth has extremely bad social skills. She has a Charisma of 2, an Etiquette of 1 and the Social Stress (Large Crowds) quality, reducing the number of 1s she needs to roll to glitch to 1 and letting the the GM call for a test to see how well she handles herself. This is a basic task that's only even worth rolling for because Ruth has a negative quality for it, so the Threshold is 1.

She rolls 2,2,6. She has 1 hit, and managed to avoid glitching. Ruth gets through the meet without making a scene or drawing attention to herself. If even one of those dice had come up 1 she would have The group resolves to have her wait outside next time.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

During the downtime afterwards, Ruth decides to modify her gun by adding a Smartgun System to it. The last run brought in enough funds that she's been able to get the matching Smartlink put in her goggles. Her Logic is still 3 and her Armourer skill is 1. However, she has access to the Matrix and downloads an AR guide for a +2 bonus, bringing her to 6 dice. Attaching a Smartgun System is an Extended Task, so she'll be able to keep rolling until she accumulates the successes needed. The Threshold, and thus the number of Hits she'll need to build up over multiple rolls, is 4. Each roll will take 1 hour and each additional roll she makes will reduce her dice pool by 1.

Her first roll gets 1,1,1,2,3,3. She gets no hits, and is one 1 away from glitching.
Her second roll is 1,2,4,4,5. There's a hit this time! She still needs another 3 hits though, and keeps going.
The third roll gets 4,4,6,6. Another 2 hits, bringing her total to 3. Just one more to go.
The fourth roll is 1,2,6. She scores 1 hit on this one, giving her the 4 hits she needs to finish adding the Smartgun System to her gun. It only took her four hours to do it too.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Much later, the group has ended up stranded in the wilderness after Mr. Johnson double-crossed them. Ruth is the only one who invested in any sort of wilderness skills, so it's up to her to lead them home. Her Intuition is 5 and her Navigation is 3 for a total of 8 dice. With a lot of their gear fried and only vague recollections of a map to go by, the GM sets the Threshold at 2.

She rolls 1,3,3,4,4,5,5,6. That's 3 hits, more than enough to reach the Threshold and find their way back to civilisation (the Decker sighs in relief). Good job too, she's also the only one who invested in Survival or brought any sort of supplies.

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If you're curious about how optimised those dice pools are, most characters will probably roll about 14 dice for their primary skills. High optimisation can push those into the low twenties without too much effort.

[Necroticplague]

I haven't encountered that before, hence the question. Unless it's the thing that allows a character to have a lot of cyberware but also be a potent magic-user, in which case I've heard allusions to it, but never any actual terms.

So objects have their own equivalent to essence then, for most of the in-world explanation?

Cybermancy is a metamagic used in creating cymberzombies. It might be used in some other things too, but I can't recall. It's combining potent magics and bleeding-edge cybernetics to keep a things going when normally their "soul" has ceased recognizing their body as their body and just up and said "I'm out of here". It does allow for what you describe, but only indirectly, as the cyberzombie wakes up with a negative essence amount, but is now dual-natured and has a magic score of one (which they could then train up), in addition to being a portable mana font, so they could boost up their own spells with it.

Yep, pretty much. So you can't cram too much cyber in their because after a certain point, you don't have enough essence of your own to keep going.

[DigoDragon]

Out of universe, because letting some magic combine with some tech would allow for some ridiculous(ly potent) combinations (like if you could enchant a gun, or god help you, a grenade launcher).

And my players never leave home without their grenade launcher.

I have allowed simple enchantments on simple devices (i.e. things without moving parts or volatile chemicals), such as enchanting bullets (but not the cap) with something like a magic barrier rating to do some damage to a spirit (Because when your mage gets body-checked through a wall by an earth spirit, the rest of the team is pretty much boned).

[Tome]

I have allowed simple enchantments on simple devices (i.e. things without moving parts or volatile chemicals), such as enchanting bullets (but not the cap) with something like a magic barrier rating to do some damage to a spirit (Because when your mage gets body-checked through a wall by an earth spirit, the rest of the team is pretty much boned).

I believe that enchanted bullets are explicitly a no go, at least under 5e rules. Enchanted arrow heads are possible, but are either very volatile (contact triggers) or need the mage around to set them off (activation triggers). Those sort of things also tend to fade pretty quickly.

Spirits aren't an insurmountable obstacle for non-mages though. Once they materialise their Immunity to Normal Weapons can be overcome by having a high enough AP on your weapon. APDS ammo in a good gun is sufficient to hurt them. It's still a lot easier to have the mage chuck a Manabolt at them though.

[Telok]

Let me put it this way: I don't understand why the base dice system was changed. It seems to enforce predictability at high levels of character skill to the exclusion of lower skilled characters ability to sometimes succeed. I was wondering if the current books addressed why the dice system was changed, since it changes some of the underlying assumptions about the skill tests. Was there any discussion of why this system was better than the old system?

I'll explain the dice thing.

Previous editions:
You roll Attribute + Skill + Dice Pool.
Dice Pool varies because you can use it for multiple things each round. Combat Pool is for attacking and dodging.
Your Target Number is 4 with changes based on conditions. Every die higher than the target number is a success, some tasks can require more than one success.
Every rolled 6 is a reroll and add the next number, there is no upper limit.
In opposed checks the number of successes is compared.
So someone with 3 dice can succeed (rarely) on difficult tasks and things that are extremely unlikely with target numbers over 13 can still be failed by expert operators. In addition with opposed tests you still have to succeed at the basic task in addition to beating your opponent.

The new system makes higher skilled people more predictable. Once you hit 15 dice or so you can stop expecting variation of more than one or two hits. Getting one hit on sixteen dice is something like a 1 in 500 chance, an event you might see once in a decade of playing the game. There is also the fact that if you can turn a test that needs a large number of hits into an opposed test then you only need a few more dice than your opponent to be confident of success.

[LibraryOgre]

Previous editions:
You roll Attribute + Skill + Dice Pool.
Dice Pool varies because you can use it for multiple things each round. Combat Pool is for attacking and dodging.
Your Target Number is 4 with changes based on conditions. Every die higher than the target number is a success, some tasks can require more than one success.
Every rolled 6 is a reroll and add the next number, there is no upper limit.
In opposed checks the number of successes is compared.
So someone with 3 dice can succeed (rarely) on difficult tasks and things that are extremely unlikely with target numbers over 13 can still be failed by expert operators. In addition with opposed tests you still have to succeed at the basic task in addition to beating your opponent.

This is not quite accurate. In editions 1-3, you rolled Skill+dice from a relevant dice pool, if you wanted. Shooting an Ares Predator? Use your Firearms Skill, your Pistols Concentration, or your Ares Predator Specialization, plus any dice from your Combat Pool you wished to use. Base TN was determined by range, and would have a lot of modifiers applied to it. 6s always exploded, on every die, because that was the only way to hit some of the higher target numbers (i.e. 6, 7, 8 or more).

Attributes very seldom applied directly to skill tests in editions 1-3.

The new system makes higher skilled people more predictable. Once you hit 15 dice or so you can stop expecting variation of more than one or two hits. Getting one hit on sixteen dice is something like a 1 in 500 chance, an event you might see once in a decade of playing the game. There is also the fact that if you can turn a test that needs a large number of hits into an opposed test then you only need a few more dice than your opponent to be confident of success.

Which makes a fair amount of sense. If you are really skilled, you're going to be very consistently successful. You're trained and talented, so you don't screw up too often (always get a hit), and you have the potential to shine in ways lesser folks don't (i.e. pulling 15 hits on 15 dice).

[Tome]

The new system makes higher skilled people more predictable. Once you hit 15 dice or so you can stop expecting variation of more than one or two hits. Getting one hit on sixteen dice is something like a 1 in 500 chance, an event you might see once in a decade of playing the game. There is also the fact that if you can turn a test that needs a large number of hits into an opposed test then you only need a few more dice than your opponent to be confident of success.

Yes, highly skilled individuals with literally superhuman capabilities do, in fact, rarely fail at simple tasks. Comparatively, the average guy who does something as a hobby is going to have problems keeping up with the elite professionals.

Your assessment of the probabilities is very much off though. Outliers crop up more often in play than you're thinking. That roll I made in my examples where I got 1 hit on 16 dice? Not only was it an actual rolled result, it's not exactly the first time I've gotten results like that (it is the first time I haven't used Edge to re-roll it though ). While that was more extreme than the usual variance, it does vary more than you're assuming. Hells, I just rolled those sixteen dice another ten twenty times and only got an average result (5-6 hits) once thrice.

Also, the opposed tests thing? The rules don't actually work the way you're assuming they do. There aren't any tasks I can think of of the top of my head that you can do that to, and even if there were you'd still have to beat both your opponent and the threshold.

[Telok]

Also, the opposed tests thing? The rules don't actually work the way you're assuming they do. There aren't any tasks I can think of of the top of my head that you can do that to, and even if there were you'd still have to beat both your opponent and the threshold.

Oh good, because it sounded like an easy out the way it was described. That and I've seen all the editions of SR up to the last so I'm probably getting them a bit mixed up.

And while I have no major objection to skilled people being failure proof I would worry about the fact that the more dice you throw at a static target number the more average your results get and the less variation appears in the results.

What I still want to know is if there was any discussion of the reasons for the change in dice system. Several of the game systems I own actually explain the probability curves of the dice they use so that players and GMs understand what an increase in target number actually means in terms of % chances. What advantage does the system offer over it's previous version?

[The Random NPC]

Oh good, because it sounded like an easy out the way it was described. That and I've seen all the editions of SR up to the last so I'm probably getting them a bit mixed up.

And while I have no major objection to skilled people being failure proof I would worry about the fact that the more dice you throw at a static target number the more average your results get and the less variation appears in the results.

What I still want to know is if there was any discussion of the reasons for the change in dice system. Several of the game systems I own actually explain the probability curves of the dice they use so that players and GMs understand what an increase in target number actually means in terms of % chances. What advantage does the system offer over it's previous version?

I don't believe there is any discussion on why the system was changed, nor what the exact probabilities are. At a guess, I'd say it's because this way is easier to understand, and allows the skilled to fail less often. Additionally, there is another rule that you can trade 4 dice for 1 automatic success. It's an all or nothing effect though, so you can't trade 8 dice and roll 4 if you have a pool of 12.

[Tome]

Additionally, there is another rule that you can trade 4 dice for 1 automatic success. It's an all or nothing effect though, so you can't trade 8 dice and roll 4 if you have a pool of 12.

That applies only at the GM's discretion and only on rolls you were unlikely to fail anyway.

[Eldan]

So, several people want to talk me into running Shadowrun for them. None of us have played it, other than me. And the campaign I was in wasn't really all that Shadowrun themed, as much as using the system to run what was basically half eighties action movie, half Saturday morning cartoon, with lots of shooting hordes of low-level mooks and helicopter chases and no spying or hacking. So, I never learned much more than the basic mechanism of rolling a handful of dice to operate a shotgun, despite technically building a wizard.

First question: should we get fourth or fifth edition? Seems there's not much material out yet for fifth, but would it be worth it to get it anyway? Is the system better?

[Necroticplague]

First question: should we get fourth or fifth edition? Seems there's not much material out yet for fifth, but would it be worth it to get it anyway? Is the system better?

I'd stick with fourth for now. Yes, it has it's problems (heck, I've ranted on them), but at least its stable waters. And 5th has some issues on its own, even before counting the possibility of new errata and books changing things up.

[Tome]

First question: should we get fourth or fifth edition? Seems there's not much material out yet for fifth, but would it be worth it to get it anyway? Is the system better?

Fourth.

Despite the fact that I'm into fifth myself, fourth actually has all the books it needs. Fifth still has some issues at the moment and errata is notably slow in coming.

[Eldan]

Right then. Other than the base rulebook, what should I get first? My last GM was in love with the Arsenal, but I doubt we'll need dozens of types of guns right away.

[Necroticplague]

Right then. Other than the base rulebook, what should I get first? My last GM was in love with the Arsenal, but I doubt we'll need dozens of types of guns right away.

Clearly, your group is very different from mine

Anyway, that question is best answered like this: what do you want to do? Answer it, then look for the relevant book. Street Magic for mages, Runners Handbook for exotic metahumans, unwired for hackers/rigger/technomancers, augmentation for street sammies. Probably some more my memory misses right now.

[Eldan]

Heck, I don't know. I'll have to run the game. Somehow. Don't even know what kind of characters my players will want to run. Or how many of them there will be, in the end. I'll probably get Street Magic, yeah. Just because I like magic.

Any recomendable adventures, scenarios or whatever htey are called for Shadowrun? I'm not all that good at writing my own, especially in a new system.

[Roncorps]

Right then. Other than the base rulebook, what should I get first? My last GM was in love with the Arsenal, but I doubt we'll need dozens of types of guns right away.

And make sure to get the 20th anniversary corebook !