[PF/DSP] Dreamscarred Press announces ToB-inspired product II: The Rematch

[DarkSonic1337]

It's a shame. I really liked the feat for the ability to switch maneuvers readied, not just as a swordsage feat tax for a less terrible recovery mechanic.

And with PoW characters seeming to have more maneuvers known in general, being able to switch out readied maneuvers at the start of a battle could be really useful.

[Nihilarian]

Wow. I had no idea about the project until the other day. Color me impressed by what's been done so far. :)

[ErrantX]

Update for you all!

Here's some prestige classes to check out. Let me know what you think! Fluff and mechanical critiques welcome, and I could really use a better name for the Battle Magi and Battle Priest.

-X

[Greenish]

Woohoo!

Just quick impressions before I turn in for the night:

Stance of the Battle Magi is pretty lacklustre. You have the spells to cast them, not to burn them to short duration minor buffs. Unless you can stack low level slots, few of them are worth it. An increase in spell level is worth far more than 1d4 damage or +1 saves.

Battlecaster Strike and Arcane Assault hit the gishiness head on.


Reach of Divine should give the action to cast said spell (is it free?) and/or note how long after striking the option stays open.


Trashing Dragon entry requirements speak 3.5.

Dragon Fury Training is very neat, providing lots of options for entry.

Sharp Fang should note that you don't need to meet the prerequisites, and treating weapons as one-handed doesn't do anything in PF.

Vicious Fang seems written for 3.5. PA has different sort of stuff for offhand.

Deadly Fang recovery is needlessly specific. Any way of killing should be kosher, no? (Not literally.)


I'll look at the rest, and more closely, later.

[JHShadon]

Perhaps instead of Battle Priest you could call the class "Divine Guardian".

[Beowulf DW]

I really need to point out something regarding the fluff for Umbral Blade:

The discipline of Veiled Moon is one steeped in mystery and legend, and much of its origins are hearsay at best.
Some never experience the darker parts of the discipline and much to their benefit do those who have say with emphasis.

I don't know what to make of this. I swear I'm not trying to be mean, or a smartass, but this needs work.

For every moon has a dark side, the legend says, and in that darkness there is something there that is waiting for those who
are daring enough to tread there.

OK, the first "there" is fine, the second doesn't need to be there at all, really. The third is frustrating because I can almost hear it begging for a thesaurus. May I suggest this instead: "...waiting for those daring enough to seek it,"?

By entering the shadow of the Veiled Moon, the so-called Umbral Blades find that this
darkness possesses power at a price, and by making a deal with it it is known that power can be bought. By the pact and the
darkness made manifest in their weapons and in their very flesh, the umbral blade is a darkforce that few dare to follow the
footsteps of.

The bolded words are superfluous and you can get rid of them while still getting the point across, and your sentences will be slimmer and sexier. Also, consider putting a comma after that first "it."

The part in red, while not necessarily wrong, should probably be rewritten. Suggestion: "...few dare to emulate."

[ErrantX]

Woohoo!

Just quick impressions before I turn in for the night:

Stance of the Battle Magi is pretty lacklustre. You have the spells to cast them, not to burn them to short duration minor buffs. Unless you can stack low level slots, few of them are worth it. An increase in spell level is worth far more than 1d4 damage or +1 saves.

Battlecaster Strike and Arcane Assault hit the gishiness head on.


Reach of Divine should give the action to cast said spell (is it free?) and/or note how long after striking the option stays open.


Trashing Dragon entry requirements speak 3.5.

Dragon Fury Training is very neat, providing lots of options for entry.

Sharp Fang should note that you don't need to meet the prerequisites, and treating weapons as one-handed doesn't do anything in PF.

Vicious Fang seems written for 3.5. PA has different sort of stuff for offhand.

Deadly Fang recovery is needlessly specific. Any way of killing should be kosher, no? (Not literally.)


I'll look at the rest, and more closely, later.

Making some changes to the stance, and I added "as part of this action" to the Reach of the Divine because if it's free action, then someone in theory could unload their payload as free actions.

I'll fix those reqs; that's some copy pasta I missed. I copy my PF class building template usually out of classes I've already written and strip the info out of; missed it there.

As far as Sharp Fang and Vicious Fang, Power Attack isn't usable with light weapons, so declaring a dagger or a kukri, or even an unarmed strike as a one-handed weapon for that feat actually sets it up for use with Vicious Fang as a two-hander (where bonus damage does apply at a +3 dmg per -1 to hit instead of +2 dmg per -1 to hit). I'll try to open up deadly fang.

I really need to point out something regarding the fluff for Umbral Blade:

I don't know what to make of this. I swear I'm not trying to be mean, or a smartass, but this needs work.

OK, the first "there" is fine, the second doesn't need to be there at all, really. The third is frustrating because I can almost hear it begging for a thesaurus. May I suggest this instead: "...waiting for those daring enough to seek it,"?

The bolded words are superfluous and you can get rid of them while still getting the point across, and your sentences will be slimmer and sexier. Also, consider putting a comma after that first "it."

The part in read, while not necessarily wrong, should probably be rewritten. Suggestion: "...few dare to emulate."

To be fair, I wrote the fluff of that in a sleepless night induced haze. Apologies, I'll fix those. Thank you.

-X

[Nihilarian]

Corrections in bold

Martial Caster (Ex): -SNIP-
The battle magi may select one arcane spellcasting class that he possesses

Arcane Steel (Su): At 2nd level a battle magi can fortify his body with its very own magic. Whenever a battle magi casts an arcane spell, they gain a defensive field of energy that acts like temporary hit points equal to twice the spells level. These defensive field hit points stack with those gained from further casting of other spells and last until the end of the encounter or until depleted by attacks

If they "act like temporary hit points", I'd suggest referring to them as temporary hit points. The first reference to a "defensive field" is fine because it's mostly flavor, but after that stick to defined d&d terms unless it makes some massive departures from the base ability. The second sentence should read something like "These temporary hit points stack with those gained from further usage of this ability and last until the end of the encounter or until depleted by attacks."

You could also tack a line in there reminding that they do not stack with THP gained from other sources. But that's more of a personal thing, I think.

Battlecaster's Strike (Su): At 4th level, the battle magi learns techniques that allows him to unleash his offensive magic through the medium of his weapon

This one can be fixed a couple of ways. "A technique that allows" or "techniques that allow"

Arcane Ruin is missing some s's ( I think Battlecaster's Strike stole them ). In addition, is the penalty stackable with itself?

Arcane Recovery, while cool and flavorful, might not be worth it. Spells are probably stronger than maneuvers, and spells are harder to recover. Give minor boost to the strike recovered this way?

Improved Battlecasting: wait, he couldn't before? *rereads Battlecaster's Strike"
Ah. Wording is a bit confusing. This ability is fine, but for Battlecaster's Strike you should put "range of touch" before the parentheses. In fact, the text in the parentheses should be it's own sentence.

Arcane Assault: are there any maneuvers that multiply your weapon damage or is it all additive? Multiplying spell damage is something to watch out for. I like the flavor though, too bad it comes so late. How does this interact with Battlecaster's Strike, by the way? Depending on how you look at it, the two abilities could grant you two spells plus two maneuvers in the same round.

Since you lose CL getting in the class, maybe boost CL so you can do combat casting reliably? Maybe they could us Initiator Level instead?

Overall cool.

[ErrantX]

Updated to fix a few things with Dragon Fury's entry reqs and apparently I forgot how to English when writing Umbral Blade's opening fluff.

-X

[Nihilarian]

Why not give Dragon Fury the Piranha Strike feat?

[Beowulf DW]

To be fair, I wrote the fluff of that in a sleepless night induced haze. Apologies, I'll fix those. Thank you.

-X

I had my suspicions. Everyone's been there. I once had to ask my friends why I named our Minecraft server "@$$Sandals" after a particularly late night.

[ErrantX]

Why not give Dragon Fury the Piranha Strike feat?

Because Piranha Strike only applies to light weapons, where as Power Attack functions for one-handers and two-handers only. If you use Power Attack as the base line, upgrading light weapons to count as one-handers for the purposes of Power Attack, you get to use two weapon classifications on one ability. Additionally, at Vicious Fang, you could use light and one-handers as two-handers for calculating Power Attack bonus damage. No additional verbiage needed in Power Attack.

-X

[Nihilarian]

Because Piranha Strike only applies to light weapons, where as Power Attack functions for one-handers and two-handers only. If you use Power Attack as the base line, upgrading light weapons to count as one-handers for the purposes of Power Attack, you get to use two weapon classifications on one ability. Additionally, at Vicious Fang, you could use light and one-handers as two-handers for calculating Power Attack bonus damage. No additional verbiage needed in Power Attack.

-X

From an aesthetic view, I'd prefer Piranha Strike (upgraded to +3 per -1 at 5th) so I feel less like I'm "copying" the two-handers. It would also give little love to a lesser used alternative (an alternative which is pretty much meant for character's like this in the first place).

However, the mechanic's of Sharp Fang work out well enough (and the Piranha Strike version wouldn't change, mechanically), so it doesn't really matter. And there's the question of double weapons, which wouldn't work with Piranha Strike, so perhaps you're right.

[Greenish]

As far as Sharp Fang and Vicious Fang, Power Attack isn't usable with light weapons

Yes, it is. Power Attack damage varies by whether the attack is two-handed, main hand, or off-hand.

For that matter, you could probably just give the PrC PA as a bonus feat (that they don't have to qualify for). "Gains the use of" conditionally doesn't allow it to be used for prerequisites, for example, best I can tell. For that matter, if the PrC granted ITWF sans prerequisites, it'd work for Str-based TWF too.

Also you should clarify what "fighting with two weapons" means outside the context of full attacks.

Finally, I'm a bit disappointed you can't use most of the PrC with katana & wakizashi combo.

[Craft (Cheese)]

Update for you all!

Here's some prestige classes to check out. Let me know what you think! Fluff and mechanical critiques welcome, and I could really use a better name for the Battle Magi and Battle Priest.

-X

Hooooly ****!

Okay, so I've only read over the Battle Priest so far and... yeah, it has problems. First though, the things I like:

- You didn't tie any of the class features to channel energy, only to expending spell slots. This is great: It means you can easily use the class with an Oracle chassis without being forced into the Life mystery.

- Reach of the Divine and Divine Recovery are great ideas. Love 'em. Just wish you could use Divine Recovery to do more than one maneuver at once. Question though: Can you use Reach of the Divine to cast spells with more than one target?

- This line: "At 3rd, 6th, and 9th levels, the battle priest gains additional maneuvers readied (and granted, if applicable) per day." Does this mean there are plans for a class/archetype with a crusader-like recovery method in the works? This excites me.

And now, the problems: The main theme behind all of these complaints is that the class is far too focused on healing and defense: An Initiator/Divine class should be more than that.

- Discipline Focus and Shield Focus as requirements? What? That makes sort of sense for a sword-and-boarder but what if I'm playing a Two-Handing Warlord/Metal Oracle who never picks up a shield? At least you aren't required to take discipline focus for golden lion AND iron tortoise. And even when using the class's clearly intended Sword-and-board chassis it's still two unnecessary feat taxes, and you know how much I hate those.

- You can only select your maneuvers/stances from Golden Lion and Iron Tortoise. I just have no words. Limiting PrCs to only being able to take certain maneuvers is a mistake ToB made that I had only hoped Path of War would be able to avoid. And, somehow, you've made it even worse: If I'm not playing a sword-and-boarder Iron Tortoise is worse than useless to me, meaning I'm stuck with nothing but Golden Lion. Don't get me wrong, Golden Lion is great, but I'd really, really like to be allowed to have some more variety. Just let us pick from whatever disciplines we already know, whether through martial study or our classes.

- This is a 4 level class. The lost caster level at 5th, and the mediocre class features afterward, means I have no desire to take the class any further. In rare cases, I might be able to justify going to 8. Going all the way to 10 is utterly masochistic.

- 1st and 5th levels are terrible, terrible, terrible. No BAB increase, lost caster level, no additional maneuvers or stances. No save increases aside from Fort either. Oh but don't worry, you get Ordained Knight and Guardian of the Faith, the first of which is practically a pure fluff ability and the second of which has... problems. Why doesn't the Battle Priest get the bonus to saves and AC too? What kind of DR do you get if you're a Lawful Evil, Chaotic Good, or True Neutral? You are aware that DR/Silver is usually possessed by Lawful creatures (or lycanthropes) and DR/Cold Iron by Chaotic ones (or Fey), right?

[Nihilarian]

Yes, it is. Power Attack damage varies by whether the attack is two-handed, main hand, or off-hand.

For that matter, you could probably just give the PrC PA as a bonus feat (that they don't have to qualify for). "Gains the use of" conditionally doesn't allow it to be used for prerequisites, for example, best I can tell. For that matter, if the PrC granted ITWF sans prerequisites, it'd work for Str-based TWF too.

Also you should clarify what "fighting with two weapons" means outside the context of full attacks.

Finally, I'm a bit disappointed you can't use most of the PrC with katana & wakizashi combo.

I always forget that you can Power Attack with light weapons now.

Retracting my suggestion of Piranha Strike. It has a smaller niche than I remember and Power Attack is both simpler and more powerful.

[Eldest]

I always forget that you can Power Attack with light weapons now.

Retracting my suggestion of Piranha Strike. It has a smaller niche than I remember and Power Attack is both simpler and more powerful.

You could always power attack with light weapons.

[Divayth Fyr]

You could always power attack with light weapons.

For what purpose? You took a penalty and didn't gain anything in exchange - when in Pathfinder light weapons are treated like others.

If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls. You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks), even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies.

[Eldest]

For what purpose? You took a penalty and didn't gain anything in exchange - when in Pathfinder light weapons are treated like others.

Teach me to post that right after waking up, I entirely missed that.

[FinnDarkblade]

So, if you get into the Mage Hunter PrC via Martial Learning I & II in Thrashing Dragon or Veiled Moon, then does that give you Dex-based casting?

*Addition* If you get into Mage Hunter this way then do you just use the recovery mechanic from Martial Learning for your Mage Hunter Maneuvers?

[Greenish]

So, if you get into the Mage Hunter PrC via Martial Learning I & II in Thrashing Dragon or Veiled Moon, then does that give you Dex-based casting?

That'd actually be kinda cool and there's even a precedent in powering casting with physical ability score: Scarred Witchdoctor.

[Elricaltovilla]

So, if you get into the Mage Hunter PrC via Martial Learning I & II in Thrashing Dragon or Veiled Moon, then does that give you Dex-based casting?

*Addition* If you get into Mage Hunter this way then do you just use the recovery mechanic from Martial Learning for your Mage Hunter Maneuvers?

I haven't had time to look over the PrCs yet, so can you explain how you're getting this?

[Snowbluff]

I haven't had time to look over the PrCs yet, so can you explain how you're getting this?

Mage Hunter's spellcasting stat is their initiator stat. If the feat makes your I stat based on dex, you would get dex based caster.

Hi Finn!

[Greenish]

I haven't had time to look over the PrCs yet, so can you explain how you're getting this?

Magehunter keys it's casting to your Initiation (or is it Initiator?) Modifier.

Martial Learning makes the ability score tied to the key skill of the discipline you take with your IM. (I missed that change too.)

[Elricaltovilla]

Magehunter keys it's casting to your Initiation (or is it Initiator?) Modifier.

Martial Learning makes the ability score tied to the key skill of the discipline you take with your IM. (I missed that change too.)

That is pretty sweet thanks for the explanation.

[Sith_Happens]

*waves hand at ErrantX*

It's not a bug, it's a feature.

[Snowbluff]

Magehunter keys it's casting to your Initiation (or is it Initiator?) Modifier.

Martial Learning makes the ability score tied to the key skill of the discipline you take with your IM. (I missed that change too.)

Stalkered? But seriously, I didn't have the info on Martial Learning, so I did not include it. Thanks.

*waves hand at ErrantX*

It's not a bug, it's a feature.

Mhm. I want it.

[Elricaltovilla]

*waves hand at ErrantX*

It's not a bug, it's a feature.

Agreed. I'm just trying to figure out what Dex based casting would look like.

[JHShadon]

Agreed. I'm just trying to figure out what Dex based casting would look like.

It would be complex finger wiggling, something like in this video.

[Prime32]

Agreed. I'm just trying to figure out what Dex based casting would look like.

Typing on a magic keyboard? Taking "The Weave" literally? Controlling marionettes that cast spells for you?