[PF/DSP] Dreamscarred Press announces ToB-inspired product II: The Rematch

[Greenish]

Hey guys, you remember how back when there was talk of 13 disciplines? Well, they're here, and it seems more are to come.

[ErrantX]

Hey guys, you remember how back when there was talk of 13 disciplines? Well, they're here, and it seems more are to come.

Distinctly.

These are some names from some that potentially may be seen in Book 2 that are just in my own project folder:

Defiant Scream, Tempest Gale, Judicial Hammer, Piercing Lance (it's coming back!), Riven Hourglass, Raging Storm, Consuming Flame, Unyielding Stone, Tidal Flux and...

Metadisciplines.

Chew on that

-X

[Greenish]

Defiant Scream, Tempest Gale, Judicial Hammer, Piercing Lance (it's coming back!), Riven Hourglass, Raging Storm, Consuming Flame, Unyielding Stone, Tidal Flux and...

Hmm, those would be Chaos, Air (archery?), Law, Time, Electricity, Fire, Earth, and Water. No Void?

Metadisciplines.

My mind, she boggles.


I should hope there's an einhander-supporting school somewhere in there, too.

[Vanitas]

I'd let Seraph do full damage vs. everyone, with Crane maybe doing no damage vs. Good. Maybe tag extra damage vs. alignment on some of the maneuvers where appropriate (Crane already has something to that effect).

That sounds like a better idea. Black Seraph looked badass when I first read it, until I realized I would probably never play a Black Seraph character.

OK, my impressions:
1. I thought you guys were going to drop "mechanical oath" and use a different name. Even "oath benefits" works better. "Mechanical" is forum lingo, not something you should reak in a book.
2. As Greenish said, skill checks to set up DCs are not a good idea. That would make the PoW classes horrible at this style, for starters, while possibly making it overpowered in a skillmonkey's hands.
3. It should be spelled that curses don't work in objects. Otherwise, you can get a bag of rats effect from some maneuvers (say, Luck Shifting) by cursing a mook's sword, then his armor, then his boots, then his underwear...
3. Spilled Salt is weird. When you get it, it's next to useless. It will only come up when someone else targets that creature with a spell - and at low levels, you could probably save that guy a slot by killing this very creature with a normal attack. When opponents start getting multiple attacks, it basically ruins full-attacks, which is pretty good - in fact, a bit too good for a 1st level counter (other "full-attack messer" counters were at least 2nd level). I just don't like it. Doesn't look like elegant design, picking a maneuver now that will only be useful later or having a lower level maneuver be better than a higher level maneuver.
4. Aura of Misfortune seems a bit too strong for its level. Most similar effects in the game enter play at 3rd character level at the earliest and have smaller range.
5. Instead of mentioning "the cursed condition" all the time, isn't it easier to say "if the creature is cursed"?
6. Torment the Weak's flavor text suggests bleed damage, instead it has nothing of the sort.
7. What does the Spellcraft check in Bad Karma actually do?
8. Hunstman's Curse should mention "Acrobatic checks to jump". There is no Jump skill in PF. It also feels like too powerful a debuff. Staggered is a very nasty condition, adding more stuff on top of that is just too much. What does the Spellcraft check do here?
9. I'm not sure how useful Sorcerer's Sidestep is going to be. Specially if maneuvers are common, you're bound to face opponents who identify your maneuvers - they would just use spells with attack rolls. I could see it working better as a counter (specially since it's called Sidestep) or a Stance (if it had flat bonuses).
10. Aura of Iron's Betrayal creatures some interesting situations. Objects can be cursed, but maybe they are not opponents. What about sentient items? Should they be granting extra bonuses to Luck Shifts and the like?
11. The wording in Hangman's Curse is a lot cleaner than in the other maneuvers, it should be used as an example.
12. Withfinder's Brand DC is too high. When you get it, it's around DC 26 on a check where casters get only level + casting ability modifier. +11 vs DC 26, so they fail 70% of the time. You probably forgot that concentration is not a skill in PF.
13. What does the Spellcraft check in Warlock's Stride do, anyway?
14. More explanation on how Shadow Pin works would be good. How do you "harm" the shadow? Do you throw an actual pin at it, Sarutobi Sasuke-style?
15. The Dragon Knows sounds too powerful. Blindsight all the time is a game breaker, which is the reason it was never introduced in PF, I suppose.
16. Warlock's Blow should have the [Teleportation] descriptor and it should allow for a save.
17. Eye for an Eye is overpowered. The save should still be there.
18. Warlock's Mirror! Finally a maneuver in which I know what the Spellcraft check does.
19. If flying creatures fall to the ground when you use Festival of Shadows, why do they lose their Fly ranks? It's not like they are going to be able to use it.

[Greenish]

So I've been thinking of the archetypes. My favourites from the current ones are Zweihander Defender (why bother with shield when you have full plate) and Steelfist Bravo (the name alone is great), but two that I'm missing are light-armoured shield fighter (stalker archetype ahoy! They already have Broken Blade for smacking people with a shield, they just need the proficiency and a bit of tweaking), and heavy-armoured unarmed/brawler (Dervish Defender sorta kinda works, but is clearly aimed at light armour, like most every unarmed class there is).


[Edit]: Is the new Knowledge skill nailed down already, or could you be induced to incorporate it to, say, History (which at least in 3.5 was the knowledge for strategy and tactics)?

[Lord_Gareth]

1. I thought you guys were going to drop "mechanical oath" and use a different name. Even "oath benefits" works better. "Mechanical" is forum lingo, not something you should reak in a book.

Damnit I knew I was forgetting something.

2. As Greenish said, skill checks to set up DCs are not a good idea. That would make the PoW classes horrible at this style, for starters, while possibly making it overpowered in a skillmonkey's hands.

This has already been fixed, but thanks for catching it.

3. It should be spelled that curses don't work in objects. Otherwise, you can get a bag of rats effect from some maneuvers (say, Luck Shifting) by cursing a mook's sword, then his armor, then his boots, then his underwear...

I don't think this is an issue since it specifies 'creature struck' and other similar wordings; 'creature' rather explicitly indicates that objects are not on the list of targets.

3. Spilled Salt is weird. When you get it, it's next to useless. It will only come up when someone else targets that creature with a spell - and at low levels, you could probably save that guy a slot by killing this very creature with a normal attack. When opponents start getting multiple attacks, it basically ruins full-attacks, which is pretty good - in fact, a bit too good for a 1st level counter (other "full-attack messer" counters were at least 2nd level). I just don't like it. Doesn't look like elegant design, picking a maneuver now that will only be useful later or having a lower level maneuver be better than a higher level maneuver.

I might respectfully suggest that you've mis-read or misunderstood Spilled Salt. It affects a single attack or skill check, and thanks to how Immediate actions work that means you can foul an attack or skill check being aimed at you. Good for preventing hostile touch spells, incoming maneuvers, etc.

4. Aura of Misfortune seems a bit too strong for its level. Most similar effects in the game enter play at 3rd character level at the earliest and have smaller range.

I'll take it into consideration

5. Instead of mentioning "the cursed condition" all the time, isn't it easier to say "if the creature is cursed"?

'Cursed creatures' are referenced; in cases where someone becomes cursed I do use 'gains the cursed condition' or similar wording, mostly for clarity. If there's a case where a creature's not gaining the cursed condition but I still say 'the cursed condition' couldja let me know which maneuver it's in so I can fix it up?

6. Torment the Weak's flavor text suggests bleed damage, instead it has nothing of the sort.

I do need to fix that but the additional progressive damage vs. cursed creatures is the 'bleed'.

7. What does the Spellcraft check in Bad Karma actually do?

There is no war in Ba Sing Se >.>

Thanks for the catch, relic from previous wording. It's been fixed.

8. Hunstman's Curse should mention "Acrobatic checks to jump". There is no Jump skill in PF. It also feels like too powerful a debuff. Staggered is a very nasty condition, adding more stuff on top of that is just too much. What does the Spellcraft check do here?

Ba Sing Se!

As far as the actual debuff goes, see slow; the wording is almost directly copied from the spell. Huntsman's in general is a nerfed (see: single-target) slow, which for casters starts the game hitting five people at a time and just gets nastier from there.

9. I'm not sure how useful Sorcerer's Sidestep is going to be. Specially if maneuvers are common, you're bound to face opponents who identify your maneuvers - they would just use spells with attack rolls. I could see it working better as a counter (specially since it's called Sidestep) or a Stance (if it had flat bonuses).

I'll consider it. At the moment Sorcerer's Sidestep is also useful if you expect to plunge into auras or the like, but...thanks to how immediate actions work that function wouldn't vanish from it if it became a counter.

10. Aura of Iron's Betrayal creatures some interesting situations. Objects can be cursed, but maybe they are not opponents. What about sentient items? Should they be granting extra bonuses to Luck Shifts and the like?

Iron's Betrayal targets the creatures, not the items. For example, an Asura would be immune to Aura of Iron's Betrayal (see their entry in the SRD; they're immune to curses) no matter what it was wearing. Note that while it inflicts the Broken condition it doesn't actually break the items, just impair their function.

11. The wording in Hangman's Curse is a lot cleaner than in the other maneuvers, it should be used as an example.

Danke, danke.

12. Withfinder's Brand DC is too high. When you get it, it's around DC 26 on a check where casters get only level + casting ability modifier. +11 vs DC 26, so they fail 70% of the time. You probably forgot that concentration is not a skill in PF.

I think you may overestimate exactly how high an initiation modifier is going to be; initiators NEED str/dex/con very badly and IM is going to lag behind casting modifiers at all levels. That being said, it's supposed to be difficult and this is currently a feature, not a bug. It may end up revised based on further feedback and testing.

13. What does the Spellcraft check in Warlock's Stride do, anyway?

It wages a fake war in Ba Sing Se.

14. More explanation on how Shadow Pin works would be good. How do you "harm" the shadow? Do you throw an actual pin at it, Sarutobi Sasuke-style?

I probably should revise the flavor a bit, but it's inspired by (real world!) magicians/sorcerers who throw knives into your shadow to hold you in place.

15. The Dragon Knows sounds too powerful. Blindsight all the time is a game breaker, which is the reason it was never introduced in PF, I suppose.

I firmly but respectfully disagree; the blindfold of true darkness didn't break any campaigns and it came online at, what, fourth level? Blindsight is a powerful anti-stealth tool but has little narrative power and no special advantages against creatures that don't utilize stealth or gaze attacks. We'll see what further feedback indicates, though, and I do appreciate the concern.

16. Warlock's Blow should have the [Teleportation] descriptor and it should allow for a save.

Thanks for the catch. I'm not sure I agree on allowing the save since it requires setup (your target must be cursed) but we'll see what further feedback indicates (god I feel like a broken record with this 'further feedback' line - I swear to all Nine Hells that I'm not trying to fob you off).

17. Eye for an Eye is overpowered. The save should still be there.

Eye for an Eye also has a pretty painful restriction - it only works when you've already gotten hit or already failed your save. That both limits its utility (since you have to bait people into attacking with something you're weak again) and means that by definition it's only as powerful as whatever you've reflected. I'm pretty confident about it at this level of maneuvers but we'll see what further feedback indicates.

18. Warlock's Mirror! Finally a maneuver in which I know what the Spellcraft check does.

Finally, a war in Ba Sing Se!

19. If flying creatures fall to the ground when you use Festival of Shadows, why do they lose their Fly ranks? It's not like they are going to be able to use it.

Thanks for the catch!

I appreciate the in-depth feedback, especially the editing catches. Power level concerns are also nice and will be taken seriously (Witch's Revenge got edited last night for those reasons, actually). Thanks for taking the time to help me out.

[Vanitas]

I might respectfully suggest that you've mis-read or misunderstood Spilled Salt. It affects a single attack or skill check, and thanks to how Immediate actions work that means you can foul an attack or skill check being aimed at you. Good for preventing hostile touch spells, incoming maneuvers, etc.

But that's the thing, that means you have to declare it's use before it's rolled, while with other immediate actions you can wait until after the roll but before success was declared.

'Cursed creatures' are referenced; in cases where someone becomes cursed I do use 'gains the cursed condition' or similar wording, mostly for clarity. If there's a case where a creature's not gaining the cursed condition but I still say 'the cursed condition' couldja let me know which maneuver it's in so I can fix it up?

What I mean is that "is cursed" looks like a good shorthand for "gains the safety condition". It reads more naturally and less legalese and attains the same objective, IMHO.

I do need to fix that but the additional progressive damage vs. cursed creatures is the 'bleed'.

I understand, I just mentioned it because bleed effects are quite common in PF.

As far as the actual debuff goes, see slow; the wording is almost directly copied from the spell. Huntsman's in general is a nerfed (see: single-target) slow, which for casters starts the game hitting five people at a time and just gets nastier from there.

My bad, then.

Iron's Betrayal targets the creatures, not the items. For example, an Asura would be immune to Aura of Iron's Betrayal (see their entry in the SRD; they're immune to curses) no matter what it was wearing. Note that while it inflicts the Broken condition it doesn't actually break the items, just impair their function.

So it wouldn't work on, say, a magus' blacke blade.

I think you may overestimate exactly how high an initiation modifier is going to be; initiators NEED str/dex/con very badly and IM is going to lag behind casting modifiers at all levels. That being said, it's supposed to be difficult and this is currently a feature, not a bug. It may end up revised based on further feedback and testing.

Well, with abilities such as this one, the discipline becomes very attractive for characters such as Magi or Bards, who have high mental stats.

I probably should revise the flavor a bit, but it's inspired by (real world!) magicians/sorcerers who throw knives into your shadow to hold you in place.

Sarutobi Sasuke, then. He was a real world ninja.

I firmly but respectfully disagree; the blindfold of true darkness didn't break any campaigns and it came online at, what, fourth level? Blindsight is a powerful anti-stealth tool but has little narrative power and no special advantages against creatures that don't utilize stealth or gaze attacks. We'll see what further feedback indicates, though, and I do appreciate the concern.

IIRC, blindfold of true darkness cost 9000gp, so it would be available at 4th level. I'm also not saying it breaks anything, I'm saying it is not in line with other similar abilities.

Eye for an Eye also has a pretty painful restriction - it only works when you've already gotten hit or already failed your save. That both limits its utility (since you have to bait people into attacking with something you're weak again) and means that by definition it's only as powerful as whatever you've reflected. I'm pretty confident about it at this level of maneuvers but we'll see what further feedback indicates.

I think I missed this about only working when you fail the save.

I appreciate the in-depth feedback, especially the editing catches. Power level concerns are also nice and will be taken seriously (Witch's Revenge got edited last night for those reasons, actually). Thanks for taking the time to help me out.

No problem, always willing to help.

[Greenish]

The description for Scarlet Sentinels mentions how they are "renowned for their skill with polearms", which seems a bit weird given they aren't discipline weapons for Scarlet Throne (though IMO it'd be better fit than spears).

[Snowbluff]

I took a look at Warden and Warlord, and tears welled up in my eyes. These classes are sooooo getting a 3.5 welcome. I think Warlord will work out so well with my upcoming homebrew PrC.

[Lord_Gareth]

But that's the thing, that means you have to declare it's use before it's rolled, while with other immediate actions you can wait until after the roll but before success was declared.

True, but...does that impede the function all that much? It's a bit more of a gamble but I feel that's appropriate for a discipline themed around curses. I dunno, we'll see.

What I mean is that "is cursed" looks like a good shorthand for "gains the safety condition". It reads more naturally and less legalese and attains the same objective, IMHO.

Eh...I'm leery of this, as a veteran of RAW vs. RAI arguments. I'll take slightly 'uglier' wording for the sake of clarity most of the time. That being said I'll kick this in the direction of the boss and poll some other playtesters about their feelings about it.

I understand, I just mentioned it because bleed effects are quite common in PF.

Is it a defined condition? No sarcasm here, honest question. If there's a defined thing that 'bleed' does (unlike, say, 'fire) then I'll see about revision.

So it wouldn't work on, say, a magus' blacke blade.

Correct! The black blade is created by a creature but not held or attended by one and IIRC isn't even an item.

Well, with abilities such as this one, the discipline becomes very attractive for characters such as Magi or Bards, who have high mental stats.

For the feat investment I think I'm comfortable with this, especially since in the absence of an initating archetype they're only rocking 1/2 their level in initiator level and as a result getting everything much later than they 'should'.

IIRC, blindfold of true darkness cost 9000gp, so it would be available at 4th level. I'm also not saying it breaks anything, I'm saying it is not in line with other similar abilities.

I'm not...always...interested in that bolded line. My priorities place flavor first, balance second, and tradition about as last as it can possibly be. If it's not going to unbalance the campaign I'm inclined to leave it alone.

No problem, always willing to help.

Again, MUCH appreciated.

[Divayth Fyr]

Is it a defined condition? No sarcasm here, honest question. If there's a defined thing that 'bleed' does (unlike, say, 'fire) then I'll see about revision.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemasterin...ions#TOC-Bleed

[Lord_Gareth]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemasterin...ions#TOC-Bleed

Well crap. I'll fix that soon.

...And the 'mechanical oath' thing, assuming it doesn't slip my mind again >.< I'm sorta hip-deep in hunting for a new job at the moment.

[georgie_leech]

Eh...I'm leery of this, as a veteran of RAW vs. RAI arguments. I'll take slightly 'uglier' wording for the sake of clarity most of the time. That being said I'll kick this in the direction of the boss and poll some other playtesters about their feelings about it.

For what it's worth, I'm inclined to agree. The obvious possible conflict that leaps to mind is the spell Bestow Curse, for instance.

[Lord_Gareth]

For what it's worth, I'm inclined to agree. The obvious possible conflict that leaps to mind is the spell Bestow Curse, for instance.

Well, the good news is that with the wording at the front of the discipline Bestow Curse (which picked up the [Curse] descriptor in UMagic IIRC) does in fact inflict the cursed condition for as long as the spell's duration.

I'd love to take the credit for thinking of this but Bossman figured that one out >.> This guy had it operating off of Necromancy spells because he didn't know [Curse] was a thing.

[Elricaltovilla]

Hello all!

I'd just like to remind you that there is a group of us still going about doing a playtest of the Path of War material. We've finished 4 level 1 appropriate encounters and have moved on to the Level 5 encounters.

I've decided to title this encounter: Do you even Fort Save?
Because I'm a terrible person, that's why

Here is a Link to the IC thread: Link

And the OOC thread: Link

so that you can look at everyone's builds and join in the discussion

[Greenish]

We've finished 4 level 1 appropriate encounters and have moved on to the Level 5 encounters.

So, did you discover anything (except that 1st level things go down if you hit them)?

[Elricaltovilla]

So, did you discover anything (except that 1st level things go down if you hit them)?

Well first level PoW stuff plays a lot like first level anything. You don't have enough cool unique powers to spam them against opponents, so standard attacks are pretty typical. This is where stances come into play though. Outer Sphere Stance and its Broken Blade cousin Pugilist Stance(and presumably stance of piercing rays from Solar Wind) offer significant damage boosts at low level (in the range of 50 to 100% increase for these characters). It'd be nice to see how much of an effect other stances have on their respective boosts, but the damage increase is enough that I don't think anyone will try them out until better damage options arise.

Initiative is still the most important thing at level 1, people say rocket tag is bad at high levels, but it's at least as bad (if not worse) at level 1. And PoW's answer to the rocket tag problem (counter maneuvers) isn't available at level 1.

High HP and High AC mean that all three classes feel like more like a fighter, especially since stances can turn a shield bash into a greatsword strike (damage wise).

The CR system is borked. If you want to fight a level appropriate encounter with multiple creatures at level one, you might as well not even bother, your best choices are Kobolds and Goblins and they really don't have the attack rolls necessary to hit consistently enough to threaten. Even then, they die in one hit.

The group fought a CR 4 Green Drake, which was a pretty impressive encounter for them to come out of winning. But because of swingy rolls, the fight was difficult to gauge. The Drake's AC was high enough that it should have swept the party (At best they had a 50% chance to hit) but because I couldn't roll anything especially high, they didn't take nearly the kind of damage I expected them to take (the bite attack should have done about 50% of their health in damage). I need to note that I did not have the drake fly up and carpet bomb them because that would have been the end of things right there and I wanted to see how well they stood up against a difficult but beatable encounter.

Fighting against created characters (Cleric, Magus and Wizard) went exceptionally well for the party, because initiative and (frankly) my poor tactics. I think the fight should go better when I have more levels to play with.

They made it out of the fight with the kobolds unscathed, which didn't really surprise me. Nobody made it out against the dragon with more than 3/4 of their health, but only one person was knocked unconcious. Only one person took damage against the alternative adventuring party, and I didn't even get to color spray anybody

So my analysis at level 1: Pretty much the same as any other group of level 1 characters. The lack of healing options really makes things difficult for them if they can't steamroll the opponent, but they have the endurance and raw power of a THF fighter, but more options available as weapon styles.

[ErrantX]

Well first level PoW stuff plays a lot like first level anything. You don't have enough cool unique powers to spam them against opponents, so standard attacks are pretty typical. This is where stances come into play though. Outer Sphere Stance and its Broken Blade cousin Pugilist Stance(and presumably stance of piercing rays from Solar Wind) offer significant damage boosts at low level (in the range of 50 to 100% increase for these characters). It'd be nice to see how much of an effect other stances have on their respective boosts, but the damage increase is enough that I don't think anyone will try them out until better damage options arise.

Yeah, it does bump damage but it generally bumps damage to low damage weapons, so there's some advantage there. But I see your point; those stances do retain some viability in higher levels of play though.

Initiative is still the most important thing at level 1, people say rocket tag is bad at high levels, but it's at least as bad (if not worse) at level 1. And PoW's answer to the rocket tag problem (counter maneuvers) isn't available at level 1.

High HP and High AC mean that all three classes feel like more like a fighter, especially since stances can turn a shield bash into a greatsword strike (damage wise).

Init is still king, true story. And yeah, they're made to be more smashy smashy out of the box. AC shouldn't be any higher though than your average classes out of the box for the most part, maybe a little? What were you seeing as the big advantages?

So my analysis at level 1: Pretty much the same as any other group of level 1 characters. The lack of healing options really makes things difficult for them if they can't steamroll the opponent, but they have the endurance and raw power of a THF fighter, but more options available as weapon styles.

Thank you for your review!

-X

[Elricaltovilla]

Yeah, it does bump damage but it generally bumps damage to low damage weapons, so there's some advantage there. But I see your point; those stances do retain some viability in higher levels of play though.

It does bump damage to lower damage weapons, which is great. And I don't see much problem with a level 1 stance staying viable until 5th level since stances are so rare to get. The butt of it though is that it's a big thing to point to and say "POW OP PLZ NERF!!!1!1!" Especially in the case of outer sphere stance which adds 2d6 damage thanks to you actually being nice to two weapon fighters

Init is still king, true story. And yeah, they're made to be more smashy smashy out of the box. AC shouldn't be any higher though than your average classes out of the box for the most part, maybe a little? What were you seeing as the big advantages?

Like I said, all three ended up on par with a fighter in terms of AC/HP/Damage. The problem isn't with them, its with the CR system. A CR1 encounter with multiple opponents isn't going to do crap to them without a lot of luck. Kobolds and cats are for scaring commoners and wizards, not people running around in full plate.

Thank you for your review!

-X

I'm happy to help! I'm excited to try out the level 5 stalker build I added to the playtest, time to give your unarmed strike boosts a good vetting. And I love the whole PoW thing so much I got the preorder (and will be buying a hardcover when it comes out).

One question/favor: Did you ever get a PDF of the latest Warlord up? I know its on GoogleDocs, but I like having all the PDFs in one nice little folder

[Greenish]

Yeah, it does bump damage but it generally bumps damage to low damage weapons, so there's some advantage there.

And then you come to Scarlet Zweihander…

I do like it, but, well, it's seriously out of line with the other 1st level stances, which you've probably noticed by now.

One question/favor: Did you ever get a PDF of the latest Warlord up? I know its on GoogleDocs, but I like having all the PDFs in one nice little folder

You can download it as a PDF from GoogleDocs (I did).


Do you still recruit?

[Elricaltovilla]

And then you come to Scarlet Zweihander…

I do like it, but, well, it's seriously out of line with the other 1st level stances, which you've probably noticed by now.

I like it personally. I'm pretty much just playing devils advocate every time I critique something here because, personally, I don't think it goes far enough.

Of course, my friends and I play D&D like its Exalted...

You can download it as a PDF from GoogleDocs (I did).

You see I'd know to do that if I was paying attention to things.

Do you still recruit?

If you want in, we're doing 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th level characters, 25 Pt Buy, two traits, Standard WBL, Paizo and DSP sources only. As a note, I don't really care if you use campaign specific traits since this is a playtest.

You can make a character for any level bracket you want. Currently we have one of each PoW class, plus an extra Stalker.

On a different note:

The stalker's unarmed build gets an absolutely massive buff from a 2 level monk dip. That plus a monk's vest will give you basically the equivalent of Greater Unarmed Strike, plus Wis to AC, 2 bonus feats, better saves, Free IUS, Free Stunning fists, and evasion. Monks are really front loaded aren't they?

[Greenish]

I like it personally. I'm pretty much just playing devils advocate every time I critique something here because, personally, I don't think it goes far enough.

Well, yes, but the other 1st level stances either add +1d6 to less spectacular weapons or have a penalty to something or other.

Scarlet Zweihander adds +1d6 damage to the best weapons in the game, and gives a bonus to AC to top it off.

If you want in, we're doing 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th level characters, 25 Pt Buy, two traits, Standard WBL, Paizo and DSP sources only. As a note, I don't really care if you use campaign specific traits since this is a playtest.

You can make a character for any level bracket you want. Currently we have one of each PoW class, plus an extra Stalker.

5th level is closest to my comfort zone. I'll pull together a vanilla warlord.

The stalker's unarmed build gets an absolutely massive buff from a 2 level monk dip. That plus a monk's vest will give you basically the equivalent of Greater Unarmed Strike, plus Wis to AC, 2 bonus feats, better saves, Free IUS, Free Stunning fists, and evasion. Monks are really front loaded aren't they?

Yep.

[Prime32]

Were you considering much in the way of variant rules? It would be nice to see an option that grants everyone maneuvers based on level (or BAB) without requiring a specific class, or lets people with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat enchant their fists and skin (a la Arcane Bond).

It would also be nice to see some PrC or archetype with a regenerating ki pool, for monk synergy. Heck, even a stance with its own ki pool could work (e.g. "at the start of each round you gain 2 bonus ki, which are lost at the end of the round if you haven't spent them"), though that would probably need to be either a PrC-granted pseudostance or come from a ki-based discipline...

[ErrantX]

Were you considering much in the way of variant rules? It would be nice to see an option that grants everyone maneuvers based on level (or BAB) without requiring a specific class, or lets people with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat enchant their fists and skin (a la Arcane Bond).

It would also be nice to see some PrC or archetype with a regenerating ki pool, for monk synergy. Heck, even a stance with its own ki pool could work (e.g. "at the start of each round you gain 2 bonus ki, which are lost at the end of the round if you haven't spent them"), though that would probably need to be either a PrC-granted pseudostance or come from a ki-based discipline...

I like your ideas and they've inspired me on something I was trying to get inspiration on.

Thank you!

-X

[Ilorin Lorati]

Looks like the Warlord release isn't too far out.

[ErrantX]

Looks like the Warlord release isn't too far out.

You're not wrong!

Part two of the Path of War has been released! Come check it out!

-X

[phlidwsn]

You're not wrong!

Part two of the Path of War has been released! Come check it out!

-X

Is there going to be a single volume book that contains the whole of Path of War?

[Lord_Gareth]

Is there going to be a single volume book that contains the whole of Path of War?

Indeed there will be, at which point, if I remember correctly, there will also be Dead Tree Edition.

[DarkSonic1337]

Is there a feat equivalent to "Adaptive Style" in Path of War. If so, is it clearly stated whether or not maneuvers readied using that feat are expended or unexpended?

[Greenish]

Is there a feat equivalent to "Adaptive Style" in Path of War. If so, is it clearly stated whether or not maneuvers readied using that feat are expended or unexpended?

Not a feat, but there's a class feature to that effect. It explicitly doesn't refresh maneuvers.

None of the classes have a recovery system as terrible as swordsage's, though stalker comes close.