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  1. - Top - End - #91
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Zombie

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    Default Re: VoP doesn't suck

    Oberoni Fallacy was the one I was thinking of.
    Or "it ain't broken because I can fix it via rule 0".

    While no mentioning of rule 0 was ever made by the OP, it still requires a heavy GM hand in fixing loot to suit the character, and in the process violating the RAI (and RAW).

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: VoP doesn't suck

    Quote Originally Posted by ArcturusV View Post

    "Here you go Mr. Hobo, I know you're starving, have a +2 Longsword!"
    This is why we get Murder Hobos. This is why we can't have nice things.

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: VoP doesn't suck

    Exalted Eric is under arrest.
    Exalted Eric: "Why am I under arrest, what have I done ?"
    Constable: "It has been brought to our attention that wherever you go you leave a trail of bodies behind you"
    π = 4
    Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' Actually it's worse than that.


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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: VoP doesn't suck

    Quote Originally Posted by visigani View Post
    Relics are built by the DM like any other magic item. This argument has turned hilarious because of the lengths...

    "Oh... oh muh gawd... oh muh GAWD... HE EXPECTS THE DM TO PROVIDE TREASURE THE PLAYER CAN USE?!?!?!?! How DARE he! And... *gasp* it's "strange custom content from beyond the realms of madness!"..."

    this group has gone to to maintain their belief that VoP must suck... because if it doesn't... can we trust anything to be real?

    Meanwhile everyone is telling themselves Dragonwrought Kobolds begin play as epic dragons or somesuch nonsense... because like, they're "True Dragons".
    I thought your argument was - repeatedly - that Relics were not like any other magic item.

    As a side note, I find your resorting to ad hominem attacks to undermine the integrity of your argument.

    Or did you have something constructive to add?
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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: VoP doesn't suck

    No, guys, it's true though! Also, monk isn't weak either. One time I DM'd for an anything goes campaign and we had a full list of tier 1 and beyond builds and then one player who insisted on rolling monk and would not be dissuaded. I gave him a bunch of magic items that let him expend stunning fist attempts to duplicate important spell effects as extraordinary abilities and then made enemies use dispelling and antimagic auras more frequently so he'd have opportunity for his extraordinary flight and teleporting and the like to be useful! It's the least I as the DM could do because he was so far behind the rest of the party!

    Monks aren't weak, they just require a DM who's willing to put in more than the bare minimum of effort.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: VoP doesn't suck

    It's also dependent on you having a very particular "table culture".

    For example... there are groups who all they do is run published adventure modules (Seen quite a few in my day). You will never find a Relic drop in a published adventure module. Hell, in a published adventure module you probably aren't going to find various weapons that most optimizers like to rely upon. You're never going to find that Magic Spiked Chain in the loot, or magic Armor with Armor Spikes that are also enchanted separately. Heck, sometimes you don't even find magic Great Swords.

    But basically there is just one unique sort of table culture you're counting on existing. One where:

    A) Your DM is very comfortable with taking extra time out of his week to homebrew stuff that he didn't expect to need.

    B) Your DM is willing to take a look at your Vow of Poverty character, and not think "Well... he knew what he was getting into..." but want to provide you a "Not really but maybe" legal loophole around your vow... Ruining the RAI of it as your Vow Character then has all the effects of Magical Loot while also having the static bonuses of the Vow, making him strictly better than a normal character when the idea is, by RAI "you're not going to be as good as a normal character, but here are some small things to make it less painful".

    C) Your fellow players won't claim "your" relics out of the loot, because why wouldn't they if they're effectively magic items that aren't magic items, and they probably guess because they aren't magic items, that they have some other corner bonus. Which they do, by being AMF immune, can't be Dispeled, etc. There's a good reason they might want to take the Relics instead of giving them to the Vower.
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  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: VoP doesn't suck

    Quote Originally Posted by visigani View Post
    Relics are built by the DM like any other magic item. This argument has turned hilarious because of the lengths...

    "Oh... oh muh gawd... oh muh GAWD... HE EXPECTS THE DM TO PROVIDE TREASURE THE PLAYER CAN USE?!?!?!?! How DARE he! And... *gasp* it's "strange custom content from beyond the realms of madness!"..."

    this group has gone to to maintain their belief that VoP must suck... because if it doesn't... can we trust anything to be real?

    Meanwhile everyone is telling themselves Dragonwrought Kobolds begin play as epic dragons or somesuch nonsense... because like, they're "True Dragons".
    As of now, your argument has descended into "conceited elitist troll" and it has become clear that there is no reasoning with you.

  8. - Top - End - #98
    Orc in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: VoP doesn't suck, people are just stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    There's also the copy paste of "if you break the vow unintentionally" being very inappropriate for vow of chastity.
    As dark as that is, there is precedent in Greek mythology. Medusa was cursed by Athena because she was raped (by Poseidon no less).

    Still, I wouldn't be cool with a DM using that to punish a player.

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: VoP doesn't suck

    If you want to actually have magic items (or simulations thereof) with VoP, then you do have some options. The most obvious is the Apostle of Peace, which requires VoP and yet says you can have defensive magic items. How you define defensive is up to you. It's a weird PrC that way.

    Option 2 is to take the vow after using one off magic items, such as Tomes that boost your stats.

    JaronK

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: VoP doesn't suck

    Quote Originally Posted by visigani View Post
    Relics are built by the DM like any other magic item.
    Maybe you play in very different games than the rest of us. Most DM's I've played with rarely give out custom magic items. You get something that's already created, either in one of the splatbooks, or in the module that the DM is running.

    Quote Originally Posted by visigani View Post
    "Oh... oh muh gawd... oh muh GAWD... HE EXPECTS THE DM TO PROVIDE TREASURE THE PLAYER CAN USE?!?!?!?!
    The intention of VoP is that the player can't use treasure.

    Quote Originally Posted by visigani View Post
    this group has gone to to maintain their belief that VoP must suck... because if it doesn't... can we trust anything to be real?
    I don't think you get the point that people are trying to make. Allowing a VoP character to use relics when RAI says you probably shouldn't does not mean VoP is a good choice. Especially not if you're assuming the DM's going to make you custom relics that aren't printed anywhere to make up for VoP's failings. The fact that the DM can fix something so it doesn't suck does not mean it doesn't suck, because the DM can do that with literally anything.

    No one's trying to tell you not to take VoP if you want to, or that your DM can't give you relics if he wants. If that's the way you want to play, go for it. But don't try to use that as evidence that VoP is great.

    And maybe try being a little nicer huh? People are more apt to listen to other people's arguments when those other people aren't being rude to them.
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  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: VoP doesn't suck

    Specific trumps General. VoP requires that you use no magic items. BoED Relics say they are not like normal magic items, ergo, they are still magic items, and will break VoP because they are not specifically called out as working with VoP. People here are trying to provide you with valid, understandable debates as to why Relics don't work in this circumstance. There is no need to get aggressive.

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: VoP doesn't suck

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Fau View Post
    As of now, your argument has descended into "conceited elitist troll" and it has become clear that there is no reasoning with you.
    At least the last who fit that profile had the brief and shining moment of entertainment where he seriously argued probability was a scientific conspiracy.

    @Visigani: you continue to use the DM as a way of circumventing the rules printed in the game. If it requires the DM to okay something because it's not printed as-is in the rules, your argument falls into Oberoni Fallacy and will be ignored no matter how loudly or condescendingly you scream it.
    Proudly without a signature for 5 years. Wait... crap.

  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Goblin

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    Default Re: VoP doesn't suck

    Quote Originally Posted by JaronK View Post
    If you want to actually have magic items (or simulations thereof) with VoP, then you do have some options. The most obvious is the Apostle of Peace, which requires VoP and yet says you can have defensive magic items. How you define defensive is up to you. It's a weird PrC that way.
    This sword of goblin slaying is totally defensive, dead goblins can't hurt me!

  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Fax Celestis's Avatar

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    Default Re: VoP doesn't suck

    Quote Originally Posted by ArcturusV View Post
    "Here you go Mr. Hobo, I know you're starving, have a +2 Longsword!"
    Give a man a longsword +2 and you will feed him for 75.9 years. Teach a man to adventure and you will feed him nothing for a very short and violent life.

    (seriously, a longsword +2 is worth 8315GP. Three common meals a day is priced at 3SP. 8315 GP/.3 SP/day=~27716 days, 27716 days/365 days=~75.9 years.)

  15. - Top - End - #105
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    Kevka Palazzo's Avatar

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    Default Re: VoP doesn't suck

    Quote Originally Posted by Fax Celestis View Post
    Give a man a longsword +2 and you will feed him for 75.9 years. Teach a man to adventure and you will feed him nothing for a very short and violent life.
    Sounds exactly like something that happened when I was playing Adventurer, Conqueror, King.

    DM: After a week of recruitment, a homeless man walks up looking for a job.
    Me: You look useless, I think I'd rather not risk you stealing my XP.
    Hobo: (in terrible "Russian" accent) I train bears.
    Other PC: You're hired! Have this longsword and other adventuring gear!
    Me: :facepalm:


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  16. - Top - End - #106
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    Default Re: VoP doesn't suck

    visigani, I'm going to tell you a little story, and I want you to remember it forever because it will help you.

    My PoliSci professor at college once told us that he didn't like parties. Why, you ask? Well, he wasn't against them in principle, but *he* didn't go to any because the first two questions you get from anyone you meet at a party after college are:

    1. Who are you?
    2. What do you do/where do you work?

    And so he would then tell them that he taught PoliSci at the nearby university. And the response he would invariably get was, "Oh, you're a PoliSci PhD? Well let me get your opinion on something..."

    Only, of course, they don't want his opinion on anything. They want to give him their opinion on something and see if he agrees with it. If he does, they go home and tell their friends and family, "Guess who's as smart as a PoliSci PhD?" And if he disagrees, they go home and tell their friends and family, "Guess who's smarter than a PoliSci PhD?"

    You didn't open up this thread to start a discussion, you opened it up to start a fight and preemptively declared that anyone disagreeing with you is clearly dumber than you are, because *you* being mistaken, or wrong, or that there could be multiple valid interpretations of a poorly refined splatbook variant rule is apparently not possible in this reality. Yours is not the one true opinion, the one true interpretation, or the one true anything, and statistically there are many people on a board like this who will be smarter than you. This grade-school-quality sarcasm, barrage of ad hominem attacks (among other logical fallacies, including the one where the DM rewrites the rules until what you're getting at is viable), and hyperbolic posturing is not helping your case - if anything, it's antithetical to the purpose of a message board.
    Last edited by Jade_Tarem; 2013-10-23 at 01:15 PM.
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  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Default Re: VoP doesn't suck

    Quote Originally Posted by Jade_Tarem View Post
    visigani, I'm going to tell you a little story, and I want you to remember it forever because it will help you.

    My PoliSci professor at college once told us that he didn't like parties. Why, you ask? Well, he wasn't against them in principle, but *he* didn't go to any because the first two questions you get from anyone you meet at a party after college are:

    1. Who are you?
    2. What do you do/where do you work?

    And so he would then tell them that he taught PoliSci at the nearby university. And the response he would invariably get was, "Oh, you're a PoliSci PhD? Well let me get your opinion on something..."

    Only, of course, they don't want his opinion on anything. They want to give him their opinion on something and see if he agrees with it. If he does, they go home and tell their friends and family, "Guess who's as smart as a PoliSci PhD?" And if he disagrees, they go home and tell their friends and family, "Guess who's smarter than a PoliSci PhD?"

    You didn't open up this thread to start a discussion, you opened it up to start a fight and preemptively declared that anyone disagreeing with you is clearly dumber than you are, because *you* being mistaken, or wrong, or that there could be multiple valid interpretations of a poorly refined splatbook variant rule is apparently not possible in this reality. Yours is not the one true opinion, the one true interpretation, or the one true anything, and statistically there are many people on a board like this who will be smarter than you. This grade-school-quality sarcasm, barrage of ad hominem attacks (among other logical fallacies, including the one where the DM rewrites the rules until what you're getting at is viable), and hyperbolic posturing is not helping your case - if anything, it's antithetical to the purpose of a message board.
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  18. - Top - End - #108
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    Default Re: VoP doesn't suck

    Let me see if I understand this (and can simplify some of the above incredulicty about your arguement): Your saying VoP, which prohibits you from owning or using anything not on a short list and requires you to give anything you would gain from adventuring to worthy charitable causes, isn't bad because in the same book there exists items that aren't exactly magical, yet not listed on the exceptions list, and might in theory with a cooperative DM be given to you exactly as needed?

    Now let me also ask: Would giving similar exactly as needed items WITH price tags attached to a player, in line with WBL, end up with a better or worse character?
    Last edited by jindra34; 2013-10-23 at 01:25 PM.
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  19. - Top - End - #109
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    Default Re: VoP doesn't suck

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    I....I love you.
    Seconded. Call it to a vote? Does the Playground love Jade_Tarem?

  20. - Top - End - #110
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    Default Re: VoP doesn't suck

    Quote Originally Posted by RFLS View Post
    Seconded. Call it to a vote? Does the Playground love Jade_Tarem?
    I'll submit my vote.


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  21. - Top - End - #111
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    Default Re: VoP doesn't suck

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevka Palazzo View Post
    I'll submit my vote.
    This is going to be the fastest landslide election in the history of dictatorships.

    I mean democracy.

    I mean I vote in favor.
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  22. - Top - End - #112
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: VoP doesn't suck

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    This is going to be the fastest landslide election in the history of dictatorships.

    I mean democracy.

    I mean I vote in favor.
    The man gets my cookie.
    Most people see a half orc and and think barbarian warrior. Me on the other hand? I think secondary trap handler and magic item tester. Also I'm not allowed to trick the next level one wizard into starting a fist fight with a house cat no matter how annoying he is.
    Yes I know it's sarcasm. It's a joke. Pale green is for snarking
    Thread wins: 2

  23. - Top - End - #113
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    Default Re: VoP doesn't suck

    Aye.
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  24. - Top - End - #114
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    Default Re: VoP doesn't suck

    Quote Originally Posted by RFLS View Post
    Seconded. Call it to a vote? Does the Playground love Jade_Tarem?
    All the yes
    Blarg...

  25. - Top - End - #115
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    Default Re: VoP doesn't suck

    Quote Originally Posted by Jade_Tarem View Post
    visigani, I'm going to tell you a little story, and I want you to remember it forever because it will help you.

    My PoliSci professor at college once told us that he didn't like parties. Why, you ask? Well, he wasn't against them in principle, but *he* didn't go to any because the first two questions you get from anyone you meet at a party after college are:

    1. Who are you?
    2. What do you do/where do you work?

    And so he would then tell them that he taught PoliSci at the nearby university. And the response he would invariably get was, "Oh, you're a PoliSci PhD? Well let me get your opinion on something..."

    Only, of course, they don't want his opinion on anything. They want to give him their opinion on something and see if he agrees with it. If he does, they go home and tell their friends and family, "Guess who's as smart as a PoliSci PhD?" And if he disagrees, they go home and tell their friends and family, "Guess who's smarter than a PoliSci PhD?"

    You didn't open up this thread to start a discussion, you opened it up to start a fight and preemptively declared that anyone disagreeing with you is clearly dumber than you are, because *you* being mistaken, or wrong, or that there could be multiple valid interpretations of a poorly refined splatbook variant rule is apparently not possible in this reality. Yours is not the one true opinion, the one true interpretation, or the one true anything, and statistically there are many people on a board like this who will be smarter than you. This grade-school-quality sarcasm, barrage of ad hominem attacks (among other logical fallacies, including the one where the DM rewrites the rules until what you're getting at is viable), and hyperbolic posturing is not helping your case - if anything, it's antithetical to the purpose of a message board.
    Quote Originally Posted by RFLS View Post
    Seconded. Call it to a vote? Does the Playground love Jade_Tarem?
    So....very...VERY well said.

    You have earned my vote sir.
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  26. - Top - End - #116
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    nedz's Avatar

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    Default Re: VoP doesn't suck

    +1 from me
    π = 4
    Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' Actually it's worse than that.


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  27. - Top - End - #117
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    Just to Browse's Avatar

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    Default Re: VoP doesn't suck

    Ad hominem is saying someone wrong because they're dumb. What you guys are looking for is the no true scotsman.

    Insulting after after proving a point is just mean, not a fallacy.

  28. - Top - End - #118
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: VoP doesn't suck

    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    Ad hominem is saying someone wrong because they're dumb. What you guys are looking for is the no true scotsman.

    Insulting after after proving a point is just mean, not a fallacy.
    Actually he did both.
    Most people see a half orc and and think barbarian warrior. Me on the other hand? I think secondary trap handler and magic item tester. Also I'm not allowed to trick the next level one wizard into starting a fist fight with a house cat no matter how annoying he is.
    Yes I know it's sarcasm. It's a joke. Pale green is for snarking
    Thread wins: 2

  29. - Top - End - #119
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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: VoP doesn't suck

    Quote Originally Posted by RFLS View Post
    Seconded. Call it to a vote? Does the Playground love Jade_Tarem?
    Aye. Well said, Jade_Tarem!
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  30. - Top - End - #120
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    Default Re: VoP doesn't suck

    +1 from me for Jade_Tarem

    Great story. I don't think the position could have been put any more plainly.

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