New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Results 1 to 27 of 27
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2009

    confused Question about strip #484's speech balloons

    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html

    What is the correct order of speech balloons? And is there a general rule for whether vertical order takes precedence over horizontal order or vice versa?

    Durkon knows the plan. He'll contact us magically--and Vaarsuvius, too--as soon as he's able.
    Wait, hold on: You're saying the boat ACTUALLY left us behind?!?
    Keep your voice down!

    or

    Wait, hold on: You're saying the boat ACTUALLY left us behind?!?
    Keep your voice down! Durkon knows the plan. He'll contact us magically--and Vaarsuvius, too--as soon as he's able.
    Last edited by Gift Jeraff; 2013-11-04 at 03:01 PM. Reason: You're* not your; that's what I get for copying a wiki instead of typing it out myself.
    THE SCRYING EYE AT THE END OF STRIP #698 WAS ZZ'DTRI'S (SOURCE)

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Orc in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2008

    Default Re: Question about strip #484's speech balloons

    I think it's the second alternative. It ties in with what Haley and Belkar were talking about last time we saw them and makes a natural transition to Xykon's usage of Cloister.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Flame of Anor's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Chicago
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Question about strip #484's speech balloons

    Yes, definitely the second.
    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    Attempting to use Iron Heart Surge can often lead to the player removing the 'not being beaten upside the head' condition.
    avatar by me. Extended sig here.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    UK
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Question about strip #484's speech balloons

    I've always read it as the second, yeah.
    >>softly open our mouths in the cold

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Germany

    Default Re: Question about strip #484's speech balloons

    I would assume the first alternative:

    With her statement Haley confirms that the boat left, triggering Belkar's reaction.

    As for a general rule: I don't think that there is one, normally it is pretty clear from context. Even the Wikipedia article is imo not really helpful:
    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    In order for comic strip and graphic novel dialogue to make sense, it has to be read in order. Thus, conventions have evolved in the order in which the communication bubbles are read. The individual bubbles are read in the order of the language. For example, in English, the bubbles are read from left to right in a panel, while in Japanese, it is the other way around. Sometimes the bubbles are "stacked", with two characters having multiple bubbles, one above the other. Such stacks are read from the top down. Poor use of speech balloons can unintentionally make the proper reading order ambiguous, confusing the reader.
    So it is either a series of three bubbles left to right (resulting in option B) or a stack of multiple bubbles to bottom (resulting in option A) [I personally lean toward stack/option A].

    Problems with [table]?
    All you want to know about [table]!
    The Order of the Stick
    Kickstarter Reward Collection

    Last updated: 2016/08/09, containing:
    9 Crayon Drawings | 21 Stick its | 47 Signature Doodles

    Custom Avatar made by the Giant.

    Thanks!

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Flame of Anor's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Chicago
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Question about strip #484's speech balloons

    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianSt View Post
    I would assume the first alternative:

    With her statement Haley confirms that the boat left, triggering Belkar's reaction.

    As for a general rule: I don't think that there is one, normally it is pretty clear from context. Even the Wikipedia article is imo not really helpful:
    So it is either a series of three bubbles left to right (resulting in option B) or a stack of multiple bubbles to bottom (resulting in option A) [I personally lean toward stack/option A].
    I think that, if it had been option A as you suggest, the smaller speech balloon would have been connected to the larger one by a direct line, not with a separate pointer to Haley's head. The reason that there isn't a direct line is probably because those generally imply that you should read down the line, which leads to the conclusion that Rich wanted us to read the other way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    Attempting to use Iron Heart Surge can often lead to the player removing the 'not being beaten upside the head' condition.
    avatar by me. Extended sig here.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Germany

    Default Re: Question about strip #484's speech balloons

    Quote Originally Posted by Flame of Anor View Post
    I think that, if it had been option A as you suggest, the smaller speech balloon would have been connected to the larger one by a direct line, not with a separate pointer to Haley's head. The reason that there isn't a direct line is probably because those generally imply that you should read down the line, which leads to the conclusion that Rich wanted us to read the other way.
    Without rearranging the bubbles a direct line wouldn't make it clearer imo.
    Rich uses such direct lines pretty often in all directions.
    Compare that to 480. In Panel two there is a connection between the two speech bubbles, with a similar angle as one between Haley's bubble would have. And from the content it is clear that the bottom left bubble comes before the top right bubble. So comparing that panel with the situation in 484, providing such a connection would imply the second reading order. The conclusion would be that it is not there, because the first reading order is intended .

    I don't know if that is true, and personally wouldn't consider that as proof, but I think it pretty much discards your argument .

    Problems with [table]?
    All you want to know about [table]!
    The Order of the Stick
    Kickstarter Reward Collection

    Last updated: 2016/08/09, containing:
    9 Crayon Drawings | 21 Stick its | 47 Signature Doodles

    Custom Avatar made by the Giant.

    Thanks!

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2008

    Default Re: Question about strip #484's speech balloons

    Quote Originally Posted by Gift Jeraff View Post
    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html

    What is the correct order of speech balloons? And is there a general rule for whether vertical order takes precedence over horizontal order or vice versa?

    Durkon knows the plan. He'll contact us magically--and Vaarsuvius, too--as soon as he's able.
    Wait, hold on: your saying the boat ACTUALLY left us behind?!?
    Keep your voice down!
    I agree, and think that this is the correct order. Haley is worried, telling herself (and Belkar) that they will be contacted by Durkon soon. Belkar gets upset with the implication, shouting out an objection, and Haley tells him to be quiet. The other way around seems a bit odd to me; why would Belkar just spontaneously shout out something like "You're saying that..." at Haley when she hadn't said anything?

    Also, as ChristianSt points out, the word bubbles are formed differently when the speech from one follows the other. There would be a connection between the two if "Keep your voice down!" was likely the first comment. Also, the "Durkon knows..." balloon is noticeably higher than the other, rather than directly across from it.

    That said, both readings are similar enough that I think both can work and give the same results. It doesn't seem to matter too much which you read it as.
    Quote Originally Posted by darthbobcat View Post
    There are no bad ideas, just bad execution.
    Spoiler
    Show
    Thank you to zimmerwald1915 for the Gustave avatar.
    The full set is here.



    Air Raccoon avatar provided by Ceika
    from the Request an OotS Style Avatar thread



    A big thanks to PrinceAquilaDei for the gryphon avatar!
    original image

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Banned
     
    Daemon

    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Question about strip #484's speech balloons

    First way round. Note the speech bubbles are read that way in the Kubota Panel.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2012

    Default Re: Question about strip #484's speech balloons

    I think it works both ways anyways. I think Belkar is supposed to be talking over her in confusion and shock.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    AKA_Bait's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Albany, NY
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Question about strip #484's speech balloons

    I've actually always read it as (A), as otherwise I would expect that everything Haley said would have been in one speech balloon.

    I'm curious though, what brought this question up? Is there some greater potential significance to one order over the other?
    [CENTER]So You Wanna Be A DM? A Potentially Helpful Guide
    Truly wonderful avatar made by Cuthalion

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Bulldog Psion's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Wisconsin, USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Question about strip #484's speech balloons

    Quote Originally Posted by Gift Jeraff View Post
    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html


    Wait, hold on: You're saying the boat ACTUALLY left us behind?!?
    Keep your voice down! Durkon knows the plan. He'll contact us magically--and Vaarsuvius, too--as soon as he's able.
    This one, IMO.
    Spoiler
    Show

    So the song runs on, with shift and change,
    Through the years that have no name,
    And the late notes soar to a higher range,
    But the theme is still the same.
    Man's battle-cry and the guns' reply
    Blend in with the old, old rhyme
    That was traced in the score of the strata marks
    While millenniums winked like campfire sparks
    Down the winds of unguessed time. -- 4th Stanza, The Bad Lands, Badger Clark

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Cizak's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Sweden
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Question about strip #484's speech balloons

    The opinions seem to be pretty evenly split on this. Interesting. I myself have always read it as option 2.
    Quote Originally Posted by T-O-E View Post
    MAJOR SPOILERS. Seriously!
    The last panel will be...
    Spoiler
    Show
    Black. 'The End' in white text.

    Don't say I didn't warn you.
    I won a thread. Am I pathetic to list that in my signture? Yes. Of course I am.

    Awesome avatar is awesome. And made by yldenfrei.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Germany

    Default Re: Question about strip #484's speech balloons

    Quote Originally Posted by Cizak View Post
    The opinions seem to be pretty evenly split on this. Interesting. I myself have always read it as option 2.
    So, who starts and organizes a "Favorite Speech Bubble Reading Order Tournament"?

    Problems with [table]?
    All you want to know about [table]!
    The Order of the Stick
    Kickstarter Reward Collection

    Last updated: 2016/08/09, containing:
    9 Crayon Drawings | 21 Stick its | 47 Signature Doodles

    Custom Avatar made by the Giant.

    Thanks!

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Orc in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2012

    Default Re: Question about strip #484's speech balloons

    IMO, it's the first alternative.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Bulldog Psion's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Wisconsin, USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Question about strip #484's speech balloons

    A short statement followed by a longer explanation seems to me to flow better than a long, detailed explanation followed by a short statement.

    That may just be the freelancer speaking, though.
    Spoiler
    Show

    So the song runs on, with shift and change,
    Through the years that have no name,
    And the late notes soar to a higher range,
    But the theme is still the same.
    Man's battle-cry and the guns' reply
    Blend in with the old, old rhyme
    That was traced in the score of the strata marks
    While millenniums winked like campfire sparks
    Down the winds of unguessed time. -- 4th Stanza, The Bad Lands, Badger Clark

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    littlebum2002's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2012

    Default Re: Question about strip #484's speech balloons

    I'm surprised Rich hasn't spoken up yet.


    Anyway, I think it's "obviously" #2. (I put that in quotes because apparently it ISN'T obvious since a lot of people disagree with me). The other reading just doesn't work.

    "Durkon will contact us" isn't actually explaining "the ship just left". I think a better explanation is: (starting from the previous strip)

    Nice illusion. Now can we just get out of this stupid city already?

    ...Vaarsuvius?

    It's no illusion, idiot. They're gone.

    Wait, hold on: You're saying the boat ACTUALLY left us behind?!?

    Keep your voice down! Durkon knows the plan. He'll contact us magically--and Vaarsuvius, too--as soon as he's able.



    especially when you see it as Haley trying to keep Belkar calm (and thus, his voice down) by reassuring him that Durkon will contact them in the morning.
    Last edited by littlebum2002; 2013-11-04 at 06:07 PM.
    Avatar by Gurgleflep

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Titan in the Playground
     
    ElfRangerGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Imagination Land
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Question about strip #484's speech balloons

    It was always obvious (to me) that it was the first option. Notice how Belkar's speech bubble is nestled between Haley's, indicating that "Keep your voice down!" is a response to Belkar's loud exclamation. The whole vertical nature of the strip lends itself to reading the speech bubbles as a stack when they're not exactly side-by-side.
    Last edited by KillianHawkeye; 2013-11-04 at 06:17 PM.
    "Nothing you can't spell will ever work." - Will Rogers

    Watch me draw and swear at video games.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Flame of Anor's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Chicago
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Question about strip #484's speech balloons

    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    "Durkon will contact us" isn't actually explaining "the ship just left". I think a better explanation is: (starting from the previous strip)

    Nice illusion. Now can we just get out of this stupid city already?

    ...Vaarsuvius?

    It's no illusion, idiot. They're gone.

    Wait, hold on: You're saying the boat ACTUALLY left us behind?!?

    Keep your voice down! Durkon knows the plan. He'll contact us magically--and Vaarsuvius, too--as soon as he's able.



    especially when you see it as Haley trying to keep Belkar calm (and thus, his voice down) by reassuring him that Durkon will contact them in the morning.
    Yes, this makes perfect sense to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    Notice how Belkar's speech bubble is nestled between Haley's, indicating that "Keep your voice down!" is a response to Belkar's loud exclamation.
    It's a response to Belkar's explanation in both options.
    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    Attempting to use Iron Heart Surge can often lead to the player removing the 'not being beaten upside the head' condition.
    avatar by me. Extended sig here.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2009

    Default Re: Question about strip #484's speech balloons

    I always read it as the second one, but in a recent reread of the strip I read it the other way and it blew my mind.
    THE SCRYING EYE AT THE END OF STRIP #698 WAS ZZ'DTRI'S (SOURCE)

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    GreataxeFighterGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2008

    Default Re: Question about strip #484's speech balloons

    I read it as:

    Haley: "Durkon knows the plan. He'll contact us magically--and Vaarsuvius, too--as soon as he's able."

    Belkar: "Wait, hold on: You're saying the boat ACTUALLY left us behind?!?"

    Haley: "Keep your voice down!"

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Orc in the Playground
     
    ClockShock's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2010

    Default Re: Question about strip #484's speech balloons

    The dialogue 'works' either way - that much is obvious. By intention or not, the ambiguous order doesn't affect the content.

    At first glance, I read it as A. As many others have pointed out, no join between Haley's bubbles suggests that Belkar speaks in between them.

    Over-scrutinising it into pointlessness, it's not been very neatly laid out (due to the necessity of showing the hobgoblins by the looks of it) making it the one slight mark on an otherwise impressive page layout.
    (Avatar by Ava)

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Germany

    Default Re: Question about strip #484's speech balloons

    Quote Originally Posted by ClockShock View Post
    The dialogue 'works' either way - that much is obvious. By intention or not, the ambiguous order doesn't affect the content.

    At first glance, I read it as A. As many others have pointed out, no join between Haley's bubbles suggests that Belkar speaks in between them.

    Over-scrutinising it into pointlessness, it's not been very neatly laid out (due to the necessity of showing the hobgoblins by the looks of it) making it the one slight mark on an otherwise impressive page layout.
    I really would not see this as any problem in the page layout, without this thread I wouldn't have even noticed it.

    And maybe it was even intended to be ambiguous?
    I wouldn't be really that hard surprised if that was the case. We have ambiguously gendered wizards - why can't the comic have ambiguously ordered dialogue, too ?

    Problems with [table]?
    All you want to know about [table]!
    The Order of the Stick
    Kickstarter Reward Collection

    Last updated: 2016/08/09, containing:
    9 Crayon Drawings | 21 Stick its | 47 Signature Doodles

    Custom Avatar made by the Giant.

    Thanks!

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Cerlis's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Question about strip #484's speech balloons

    Quote Originally Posted by Gift Jeraff View Post
    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html

    What is the correct order of speech balloons? And is there a general rule for whether vertical order takes precedence over horizontal order or vice versa?

    Durkon knows the plan. He'll contact us magically--and Vaarsuvius, too--as soon as he's able.
    Wait, hold on: You're saying the boat ACTUALLY left us behind?!?
    Keep your voice down!

    or

    Wait, hold on: You're saying the boat ACTUALLY left us behind?!?
    Keep your voice down! Durkon knows the plan. He'll contact us magically--and Vaarsuvius, too--as soon as he's able.
    Definitely the first , there is plenty of room on the lower panel for one big balloon with the full text, so those are being said separately.
    not to mention comic rules dictate that way, i believe.

    whats happening in the narrative is that in the previous page (and this is probably your disconnect) Belkar and Haley are surprised and freaked by the Fleet leaving. this is the next page and Haley is reassuring Belkar (and herself) that the others will come back for them. Since she is talking about a circumstance in which would require the group having actually abandoned them...Belkar has caught on to the fact that he isnt just missing something. That they really left.

    Then Haley responds to Belkar freaking out by reminding him now to not die (shutting up)

    The dialogue 'works' either way - that much is obvious. By intention or not, the ambiguous order doesn't affect the content.

    At first glance, I read it as A. As many others have pointed out, no join between Haley's bubbles suggests that Belkar speaks in between them.

    Over-scrutinising it into pointlessness, it's not been very neatly laid out (due to the necessity of showing the hobgoblins by the looks of it) making it the one slight mark on an otherwise impressive page layout.
    __________________
    Though i agree it is not important it does have a KIND of relevance (unimportant relevance?)

    obviously this is probably the first time the pair of them have addressed the situation, and since Belkar is surprised by her first comment we can assume that before this panel that it has only been in Haley's head that the consideration of whether or not the Order will come back for them (this is a direct link to the last page in which her self doubt eats at her one last time).

    So she isnt really speaking to Belkar. She is talking out loud (probably mentally excusing herself from trying to reassure herself by thinking she is explaining "the plan" to Belkar) in order to reassure herself that "the plan" seems sound and they really weren't abandoned. So the importance is in showing How Leader Haley is trying to keep things together so that she doesn't break down into her self doubt. To her surprise the news (or confirmation of news rather) of what just happened shocks Belkar (thus showing how little she payed attention to him) thus causing his loud exclamation...bringing her back to reality and reminding her that there are more pressing matters than worring about if she will ever see her love again.
    Last edited by Cerlis; 2013-11-09 at 08:09 AM.
    Part of the "Raise Nale and Let Him Serve Life in Prison" fan-club

    "The only reason why people didn't like Durkon before was because he is the only member of the group that doesn't commit evil, like hurting others, or breaking the rules for giggles. I.E.' He's not cool'"

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Troll in the Playground
     
    martianmister's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Turkey
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Question about strip #484's speech balloons

    Second one makes more sense.
    Spoiler
    Show

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2008

    Default Re: Question about strip #484's speech balloons

    Second interpretation.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    SaintRidley's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    The land of corn
    Gender
    Male2Female

    Default Re: Question about strip #484's speech balloons

    Either works. I imagine Rich did it that way on purpose. It's up to the reader to figure out how they will read it, and which way you read it seems to me at first glance to be a factor of how you read the characters. It's a good bit of ambiguity, I think.
    Last edited by SaintRidley; 2013-11-09 at 03:52 PM.
    Linguist and Invoker of Orcus of the Rudisplorker's Guild
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Fantasy literature is ONLY worthwhile for what it can tell us about the real world; everything else is petty escapism.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    No author should have to take the time to say, "This little girl ISN'T evil, folks!" in order for the reader to understand that. It should be assumed that no first graders are irredeemably Evil unless the text tells you they are.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •