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    Lightbulb [Weapon & Spell] I can do anything you can do better!

    Made the spell to enchant it with as couldn't find another that did much of anything like this one.

    -=-=-=-=-=-

    Mimicking
    When you parry a blow (AC negates damage) your weapon momentarily gains any special property your opponent's weapon possesses, such as Frost, though not its enhancement bonuses. As well, creatures whoes weapons are considered aligned or crafted of some substance, such as cold iron, for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction, are mimicked by the weapon. These enhancements last until the wielder of the mimicking weapon has attacked or for 1 round, whichever comes first.

    Abilities from multiple parrying do not stack. The weapon takes on the properties of the latest weapon's attack. It must still meet the prerequisites for the ability to be used. For example a Vorpal enhancement will not work on a mimicking weapon that deals only bludgeoning damage. If the weapon already has the enhancement it mimicks they overlap.
    Moderate Transmutation; CL 6th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, mimicking weapon; Price +1 bonus.




    Mimicking Weapon
    Transmutation
    Level: Clr 4, Pal 3, Sor/Wiz 3
    Components: V, S, F/DF
    Casting Time: 1 standard action
    Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
    Target: One melee weapon
    Duration: 10 min/level
    Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless, object)
    Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless, object)

    Mimicking weapon gives a weapon the ability to momentarily gain any special property an opponent's natural or manufactured weapon possesses. The mimicking weapon must be used to parry a blow (AC negates damage). This mimicks enhancements, such as Frost, though not the enhancement bonuses of your opponent's weapon. For example, a +2 Frost weapon will mimick the frost, though not the +2 to hit or damage. As well, opponent's whoes weapons are considered aligned or crafted of some substance, such as cold iron, for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction, are mimicked by the weapon. These mimicked special abilities last until the wielder of the mimicking weapon attacks or for 1 round, whichever comes first. He must then parry once more to regain the benefit.

    Abilities from multiple parrying do not stack. The weapon takes on the properties of the latest weapon's attack. It must still meet the prerequisites for the ability to be used. For example a Vorpal enhancement will not work on a mimicking weapon that deals only bludgeoning damage. If the weapon already has the enhancement it mimicks they overlap.

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    Last edited by The Vorpal Tribble; 2007-01-09 at 10:29 AM.

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    Default Re: [Weapon & Spell] I can do anything you can do better!

    Nice stuff.

    What do you mean by Parry (AC Negates) though?

    1) Whenever someone attacks you and misses.
    2) The above, while using Combat Expertise/fighting defensively.
    3) [Parry] line of feats as seen in Dragon Magazine or Parry homebrew special ability.

    Looks like the first one to me, but the wording is a bit unclear.
    Besides that, really good.
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    Default Re: [Weapon & Spell] I can do anything you can do better!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dicemaster View Post
    What do you mean by Parry (AC Negates) though?

    1) Whenever someone attacks you and misses.
    2) The above, while using Combat Expertise/fighting defensively.
    3) [Parry] line of feats as seen in Dragon Magazine or Parry homebrew special ability.
    All of the above. However, it is assumed that part of your AC includes parrying.

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    Default Re: [Weapon & Spell] I can do anything you can do better!

    So someone with a +1 flaming keen vorpral weapon attacks me and misses, now I have a +5 keen vorpral flaming frost burst scythe? ouch. Perhaps +2 or +3 on this, as it can mimic +4 and +5 stuff too... or even better: (suggestion) a lesser mimic and a greater mimic.

    Lesser minicing weapons can mimic up to +3 total enhancements (so speed, or flaming burst and keen or somthing adding up to +3 total enhancement) for a +1 cost, while greater mimicing weapons up to +6 total enhancements for a +3 cost.

    Also, I would assume my +1 mimicing warhammer could not mimic keen or vorpral, as these cannot be added to bludgeoning weapons.
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    Default Re: [Weapon & Spell] I can do anything you can do better!

    I like it, I like it a lot. Although perhaps it wouldn't be appropriate for a paladin to cast mimicking weapon and suddenly find his sword evil-aligned?

    Quote Originally Posted by magic8BALL View Post
    So someone with a +1 flaming keen vorpral weapon attacks me and misses, now I have a +5 keen vorpral flaming frost burst scythe? ouch. Perhaps +2 or +3 on this, as it can mimic +4 and +5 stuff too... or even better: (suggestion) a lesser mimic and a greater mimic.
    It doesn't stack with previous mimicry, only the last one counts, and it only lasts for one attack. And you don't get enhancement bonuses.

    However, I would like to see some mention of how this stacks with your weapons's own properties. Even to just say 'it does stack', because I was wondering there for a bit.

    Also, I would assume my +1 mimicing warhammer could not mimic keen or vorpral, as these cannot be added to bludgeoning weapons.
    This may be a good idea. Or you could maybe have it imitate damage type too?

    (PS Say, why does it list "magical" as a property that mimicking weapons can mimic? I understand the spell specifying it, as you could cast it on any old dagger, but anything with the special property should already be magic, right?)
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    Default Re: [Weapon & Spell] I can do anything you can do better!

    Actually, I think his point is: "I have a +5 mimicking frost burst scythe, I get attacked by someone using a +1 flaming keen vorpal sword, who misses. Because of the mimicking function, my scythe (for the next round) is a +5 mimicking keen vorpal flame frost burst scythe.' with a total enhancement bonus of +15 (+5 enchant, +1 mimicking, +1 keen, +5 vorpal, +1 flaming, +2 frost burst).

    I do agree that a lesser mimic and greater mimic, or a limit to the total number of points it can mimic is a good idea. I'd love to have a weapon with this against a Balor - free vorpal enchant every round it tries to attack me and fails to take my head off. :)

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    Default Re: [Weapon & Spell] I can do anything you can do better!

    exactly my point! well done. I also share your thoughts on the vs Balor fight.
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    Default Re: [Weapon & Spell] I can do anything you can do better!

    Yeah, I figured after a bit that that's what you meant. I did say I'd like to see how it stacks with your own weapon's properties. Actually, overriding them might be a good idea. (And add some way to 'choose' to parry. I don't like how the rules don't have any decent way to parry, it messes up so many good ideas, and I've never yet seen a good bolt-on parrying system.)
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    Default Re: [Weapon & Spell] I can do anything you can do better!

    Quote Originally Posted by magic8BALL View Post
    So someone with a +1 flaming keen vorpral weapon attacks me and misses, now I have a +5 keen vorpral flaming frost burst scythe?
    Uhhh... by this point you are well into epic levels, so thats not actually a big deal ;)

    Perhaps +2 or +3 on this, as it can mimic +4 and +5 stuff too... or even better: (suggestion) a lesser mimic and a greater mimic.

    Lesser minicing weapons can mimic up to +3 total enhancements (so speed, or flaming burst and keen or somthing adding up to +3 total enhancement) for a +1 cost, while greater mimicing weapons up to +6 total enhancements for a +3 cost.
    Well, that seems a very good idea in theory, but... I'm not sure anyone would buy it then. It lasts a round, and then only if your AC negates a hit, and only then if your opponent just happens to be wielding a magical weapon. Most of the time its not likely to be all that useful.

    Also, I would assume my +1 mimicing warhammer could not mimic keen or vorpral, as these cannot be added to bludgeoning weapons.
    Yeah, will specify that the weapon should still have to meet the prerequisites.

    I like it, I like it a lot. Although perhaps it wouldn't be appropriate for a paladin to cast mimicking weapon and suddenly find his sword evil-aligned?
    Well, the paladin will just have to hold his nose for a round ;)

    However, I would like to see some mention of how this stacks with your weapons's own properties. Even to just say 'it does stack', because I was wondering there for a bit.
    If your weapon already has the property nothing happens. If its got the property its got the property.

    (PS Say, why does it list "magical" as a property that mimicking weapons can mimic? I understand the spell specifying it, as you could cast it on any old dagger, but anything with the special property should already be magic, right?)
    Was just... listing in general and guess I got redundant

    Actually, I think his point is: "I have a +5 mimicking frost burst scythe, I get attacked by someone using a +1 flaming keen vorpal sword, who misses. Because of the mimicking function, my scythe (for the next round) is a +5 mimicking keen vorpal flame frost burst scythe.' with a total enhancement bonus of +15 (+5 enchant, +1 mimicking, +1 keen, +5 vorpal, +1 flaming, +2 frost burst).
    No, the weapon gains no enhancement bonus. It soley gains the ability, not the enhancement.

    "When you parry a blow (AC negates damage) your weapon momentarily gains any special property your opponent's weapon possesses, such as Frost, though not its enhancement bonuses."

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    Default Re: [Weapon & Spell] I can do anything you can do better!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Vorpal Tribble View Post
    No, the weapon gains no enhancement bonus. It soley gains the ability, not the enhancement.
    No no, it already had the +5 enhancement on the mimicking weapon. It was +5 mimicking frost burst, and it mimicked flaming, keen and vorpal. Magic8ball is asking if this is now overpowered, since its effective plusses for the next attack are +15. (Really only +14, since the mimicking doesn't directly do jack for that attack. It just gives you the other +7 of bonus properties.)
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    Default Re: [Weapon & Spell] I can do anything you can do better!

    Though a +1 Vorpal weapon is a +5 weapon, you do not gain the +4 to damage and attacks because of the Vorpal enhancement, only the +1.

    Otherwise who would bother taking mere enhancement bonuses when they can be taking special properties along with it?

    A +5 mimicking frost burst should still only give you a +5 to attack and damage.

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    Default Re: [Weapon & Spell] I can do anything you can do better!

    Yes, but the point is that a "+15" weapon is Epic. It doesn't matter whether those 15 plusses are "real" plusses (i.e. enhancement bonuses) or just the sort that appear on the magic weapons table (where it's footnoted that, "A weapon can’t actually have a bonus higher than +5. Use these lines to determine price when special abilities are added in.") Just like a so-called +10 weapon on this table isn't really +10, this +15 weapon isn't really +15. But it's still got an Epic collection of special properties, which Magic8ball is arguing is overpowered, even if it's just for one attack (although, how often you get to make those individual attacks depends on who's attacking you...)

    ...major cheese alert. Your ally attacks you with his weapon, taking all the minuses to hit that he can. After all, there's no real parry rules, he just has to miss. (And if there were parry rules, it'd be even worse -- you'd basically just have to tap your swords together!) Voila, bonus properties any time you like, for the cost of some combat actions. Not totally overpowered, but abuse is abuse. (Unless it sucks more than I was at first guessing. It does take a few actions... well, actually, it just takes one attack of his full attack each round...)
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    Default Re: [Weapon & Spell] I can do anything you can do better!

    Or, if you really wanna be cheap and you've got multiple allies with nice weapons, you stand in between them all as you wait for battle to start...and when it does, you dash out at your opponents and thus leave the threatened squares of your allies, taking Attacks of Opportunity from all of them at once to make your blade ridiculously uber, and then kill things.

    Perhaps make it a +2 bonus?

    Also, does this only apply for the kinds of magical properties magic weapons and Epic magic weapons generally get, or can special abilities of Legendary Weapons and the like be mimicked too?
    Last edited by Ultimatum479; 2007-01-09 at 08:49 PM.
    Work in progress.

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    Default Re: [Weapon & Spell] I can do anything you can do better!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimatum479 View Post
    Or, if you really wanna be cheap and you've got multiple allies with nice weapons, you stand in between them all as you wait for battle to start...and when it does, you dash out at your opponents and thus leave the threatened squares of your allies, taking Attacks of Opportunity from all of them at once to make your blade ridiculously uber, and then kill things.
    It doesn't stack. Only the last weapon to be parried gets mimicked. And it only lasts for one attack.
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    Default Re: [Weapon & Spell] I can do anything you can do better!

    still... my +5 mimicking frost scythe (a +7 weapon) gains flaming bust, keen and vorpral (a +9 - +10 weapon could get it) off my mate beside me when I charge... all of a sudden, I have an Epic scythe of doom... and a handy +2 bonus to attack!

    This could really get abused by NPC's as well: imagine twin fighters, equal yet oposite in the sence one has a +2 mimicing flaming longsword and the other a +2 mimicing frost morning star. They teleport in, tap weapons (as they attack at each other, each parrying the others blow), and unleash the cold/burny/slashy/piercy/bludgeony magical attacks of furry that only a pair of flanking, re-occuing villans that teleport home when one of the reaches 1/3 hp can deal. Actually, make them blackguards... sneak attack. Or just an ettin that crosses weapons at the start of eack round (soaking up an attack from each arm each round, but hey... a pair of boots of speed negate that loss.)
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    Default Re: [Weapon & Spell] I can do anything you can do better!

    ....Oh. Woah. Peregrine, I think that observation makes it completely fine after all. Anyone attacking with a normal weapon afterward instantly negates the mimic.
    Work in progress.

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    Default Re: [Weapon & Spell] I can do anything you can do better!

    Couldn't anyone weilding two mimicking weapons with another property each cling them together and gain both bonuses on both weapons?
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    Default Re: [Weapon & Spell] I can do anything you can do better!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimatum479 View Post
    ....Oh. Woah. Peregrine, I think that observation makes it completely fine after all. Anyone attacking with a normal weapon afterward instantly negates the mimic.
    A very good point. VT? Is this true, or are you going to write a way around this, so that at the least, only magical weapons with some sort of mimickable property get mimicked?
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    Default Re: [Weapon & Spell] I can do anything you can do better!

    I can do anything better than you.
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    Default Re: [Weapon & Spell] I can do anything you can do better!

    Here's a question... What if your paladin, with the +5 intelligent Holy Avenger of Mimicry, gets missed by a demon's natural attack?

    Does he have to make an ego check against his sword, which is now intelligent and evil? :)

    I'd specify that intelligent items either can't be affected by the spell/ability, or make sure it's clarified that it only affects their DR and that while they emulate evil for DR penetration, it doesn't actually affect their worldview.

    Maybe that's just my penchant for making everything explicit again, I dunno. :)
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    Default Re: [Weapon & Spell] I can do anything you can do better!

    Or rule that it only applies to manufactured weapons.

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    Default Re: [Weapon & Spell] I can do anything you can do better!

    I'm just going to chuck in 2cp right here that has less to do with the current issue being raised and more with a variant way of running the rules (as to making the actual "parry").

    Method One
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    When I DM, I use this method to rationalize battle: the further away the enemy's weapon is, the more he missed by. I realize what I'm about to type is going to be slightly more work than one may like, but I think that it's rather accurate. After devoting some thought to it, I decided that the order that armor bonuses applies is as follows: Dodge, Dex, Deflection, Shield, Size, Armor, Natural Armor. The idea being that in combat you'd primarily avoid being it (keeping the enemy's weapon far away from your body; Dodge and Dex), if you couldn't, any magic item's abilities would kick in and force the blow away from you (deflection), then you'd try to knock the attack away/block it (shield), if it gets past your shield, then you have to worry about the total area that the blow can strike (size), if it does hit you, one of your final lines of defense is your armor or natural armor, which is pretty much right against your body.
    So, if your player just breaks down his armor bonuses before hand, you let him know how much the attacker missed by and if that happens to be his shield or dex bonus, I think it's reasonable to assume that he parried the blow.
    Quick example: Fighter with a chainshirt, heavy steel sheild, and +2 dex. AC is 18. Miss by order would be: 1-4 chainshirt, 5-6 shield, 7+ dex. Against a kobold or something, it's obviously going to be a lot easier to get a miss by 5 or more, but at the same time, the fighter with a mimicking sword is going to definitely take advantage of the poor attacks to make sure he connects his sword with the kobolds weapon (and I'm sure that right now you're going, "Kobolds don't carry magical weapons!" Well, I'll have you know I just played through a module and the kobold chief in that did have a magic weapon! So there! )


    Method Two
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    The other way, would be for the user of a mimicking weapon to pick up the Parry feat. Now, this feat is from 3.0 and... it figures the one time I go back to look something up, half of the 3.0 books are missing from my bookshelf ! If I remember correctly, though, the Parry feat was the equivalent of the Mounted Combat feat. Once per turn, when you were successfully struck by an attack, you could make an attack roll. If this attack roll is higher than the attack roll made to hit you, the attack was negated (essentially, your attack roll becomes your new AC for that attack). It is a little better than Mounted Combat (seeing as the user is going have a higher AC than Generic Mount Bessy), but I would allow it in any games I run.
    The problem with this method is that it requires the user of the weapon or the subject of the spell to have the feat. At the same time, there are feats and enhancements that only function on specific kinds of weapons, so I don't think this is too much of a limitation.
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    Default Re: [Weapon & Spell] I can do anything you can do better!

    I absolutely love this idea, so I'm going to tinker with it some, just to see if you still like it.

    Mimicing
    When you parry a blow, meaning that the attacker's total attack roll misses your Parry AC (10 + Dex mod + Dodge bonus + Deflection bonus + Any weapon feature that adds to shielding or AC), then the weapon gains some special features of the attacking weapon up to double the mimicking enhancement bonus placed on the defender's weapon (+1 mimicking = +2 max bonus from mimicry). The most powerful missed magical weapon attack is mimicked by the weapon until that weapon's next attack roll, at which point the mimicked properties are no longer effective, or until a new set of magical properties are mimicked. In the case of equally powerful magical weapons (by enhancement bonus value), the most recent attack missed is the one mimicked. Only the following weapon properties may be mimicked by a mimicing weapon: Bane, Defending, Flaming, Frost, Shock, Ghost Touch, Keen, Ki Focus, Merciful, Mighty Cleaving, Spell Storing (mimicking the spell stored, if any, from the mimicked weapon), Throwing, Thundering, Vicious, Disruption, Flaming Burst, Icy Burst, Shocking Burst, Wounding, Speed, Brilliant Energy, or Vorpal. The mimicing weapon must meet all the prerequisites for the mimicked weapon or it will not mimic it. No enhancement bonuses from the mimicked weapon are mimicked by the mimicing weapon. This enhancement may be a +1, +2, or +3 bonus, and the value allowed to be mimicked is double that of the mimicing enhancement value.

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    Default Re: [Weapon & Spell] I can do anything you can do better!

    [...] gains some special features of the attacking weapon up to double the mimicking enhancement bonus placed on the defender's weapon (+1 mimicking = +2 max bonus from mimicry).
    There you go, I think that's a really good way of getting around the "Scythe of doom" and without having to worry about whether the copied enhancements are worth the mimicking enhancement. Straight and simple, this is what you paid for, this is what you get. If you want more, pay for more.
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    Default Re: [Weapon & Spell] I can do anything you can do better!

    so the sugestion is limitting the mimiced bonus to a max of +2 total effective enhancements. So I pay +1 now, and get up to +2 when attacked later?

    Of cause, this relies on you facing off with bad guys with enhaced weapons to start with... we don't really get to do that that much at our table, but for other folk this may be more or less powerful, depending on the play. (if every encounter has an ememy with a flaming burst sword, this is a good buy, but for a group that faces off with dragons, and minflayers and other beasties that dont need magic weapons, this might get looked over)
    We the Unwilling,
    Lead by the Unqualified,
    Have been doing the Unimagineble
    For so Long, with so Little,
    That we shall now attempt the Impossible
    With Nothing!

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    The center of The Void
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [Weapon & Spell] I can do anything you can do better!

    Well, 2 is not the cap. The Ferg suggested that +3 Mimick would be the cutoff and that it give you +6 total enhancements.
    I think you're right, that this ability may not see much use, but I think that's pretty normal. Sometimes you face off against devils that have immunity to your flamingburst. Other times you face off against undead that have resistance to your frost sword and can't be affected by your vorpal ability. And, hey, maybe once in a while you get hit by a slow spell that cancels out your speed ability. Things happen, but I don't think it should affect what a weapon is worth.
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