The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #1051
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Clarification that Redcloak did in fact order Tsukiko's wights to destroy themselves, as the spell Command Undead ~= the clerics' command undead abillity.

    I am slightly undecided as to whether this should be included, as I think only one poster has been confused about this.
    Last edited by thatSeniorGuy; 2014-02-25 at 08:43 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    She was about to say "--this new place that just opened up, Starshinia, which was founded by a red-headed aasimar, but was just taken over by an Azurite fallen paladin turned blackguard. Apropos of nothing, I hear they just invented a new spell called Halflings Don't Have To Breathe."

  2. - Top - End - #1052
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    I think it's worth including. It contains information about the creator's intent in the comic ("So yes, Redcloak...and that's exactly what happened") as well as insight into the creative process ("I just didn't show it because it would be pretty horrific.")

    I don't think either is redundant; if they are, it should be easy for someone to link the existing quote with the same info.

  3. - Top - End - #1053
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    I don't see the point in including every comment that boils down to "Rich composes panels for a reason." It's about as useful as explaining that shot of Banana ordering people around.
    Last edited by Shale; 2014-02-25 at 09:00 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant
    Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar. Sometimes, characters that have a similar hairstyle just have a similar hairstyle. How many hairstyles do you think there are that can be drawn in stick figure style, anyway?

  4. - Top - End - #1054
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalmegil View Post
    I think it's worth including. It contains information about the creator's intent in the comic ("So yes, Redcloak...and that's exactly what happened") as well as insight into the creative process ("I just didn't show it because it would be pretty horrific.")

    I don't think either is redundant; if they are, it should be easy for someone to link the existing quote with the same info.
    I'd argue the intent was crystal clear from the comic itself, but they're not redundant.

    I'm not sure that's actually insight into the creative process. What does it tell you - that he doesn't portray horrific things in the comic? That's false. Horrific things have been portrayed before. This horrific thing was unnecessary and so it wasn't portrayed, but it doesn't tell you anything about what is or isn't unnecessary (which is where I'd think the insight would be).

  5. - Top - End - #1055
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Shale View Post
    I don't see the point in including every comment that boils down to "Rich composes panels for a reason." It's about as useful as explaining that shot of Banana ordering people around.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shale View Post
    It's about as useful as explaining that shot of Banana ordering people around.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shale View Post
    Banana
    {scrubbed}

    I apologize for the off-topicness.
    Last edited by kpenguin; 2014-03-05 at 10:13 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #1056
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    God bless you, sir.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant
    Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar. Sometimes, characters that have a similar hairstyle just have a similar hairstyle. How many hairstyles do you think there are that can be drawn in stick figure style, anyway?

  7. - Top - End - #1057
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by thatSeniorGuy View Post
    Clarification that Redcloak did in fact order Tsukiko's wights to destroy themselves, as the spell Command Undead ~= the clerics' command undead abillity.

    I am slightly undecided as to whether this should be included, as I think only one poster has been confused about this.
    Seems to me that all the post is saying is that what Redcloak said was going to happen actually happened and a point on some of the rules of D&D.

    The first is largely obvious from the comic, and the second doesn't concern OOTS.


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  8. - Top - End - #1058
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Linker View Post
    {scrubbed}

    I apologize for the off-topicness.
    This is beautiful.
    Last edited by kpenguin; 2014-03-05 at 10:14 PM.
    I am: Neutral Good: -2 chaos, -21 evil and 15 balance!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalek Kommander View Post
    Heartless? Those flaming letters spelled ELAN! How many sons can honestly say their father has murdered dozens of human beings just to show how much they care?

    Tarquin's fatherly love is truly unique... or at least I hope it is!
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    First, I'm impressed that this topic went so far off topic that it ended up back at The Order of the Stick.
    Can't find the strip you're looking for? Head on over to OOTS Strip Summaries!

  9. - Top - End - #1059
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    It seemed obvious to me, but I do recall at the time of "Tidying Up" coming out, there were some questions and concerns about it. Especially regarding the difference between "Command Undead" the spell and "Command Undead" the cleric ability. (It's a good rules explanation post, if nothing else.) There were also some people who questioned the logistics of Redcloak's orders or doubted all was as it seemed for various reasons.

    Which is why I don't necessarily think the bar is well set at the point of "well it was obvious to me."

    Besides not all the uses of the index are just to clarify the genuinely unclear. Sometimes having definitive statements "yes, this is what happened" is useful in discussing ideas or theories where in-panel evidence is considered "arguable" but Word of Giant carries obvious finality. You want to shoot down some theory quick, it's often more fruitful to link to something the Giant said than to point to a strip and say it proves your argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Linker View Post
    {scrubbed}
    Oh wow, and I just noticed that you re-wrote the panel dialogue, too. Nice work.
    Last edited by kpenguin; 2014-03-05 at 10:14 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #1060
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    I don't think it needs to be included, it's basically 'the stuff that the comic depicted? That's what really happened. The end.'

  11. - Top - End - #1061
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    I think it should be included--casual D&D players can be tripped up by similarly-named abilities. And, frankly, the fact that it confused people when it came out AND years later proves that it isn't obvious to everyone.

  12. - Top - End - #1062
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by 137ben View Post
    I think it should be included--casual D&D players can be tripped up by similarly-named abilities. And, frankly, the fact that it confused people when it came out AND years later proves that it isn't obvious to everyone.
    Heck, I didn't even know there were 2 abilities. It doesn't matter, though, because the comic doesn't necessary follow the rules anymore.

    In other words, if the confusion stems from the premise of "Wait, this spell or ability doesn't work like that in the rules, right?" then the response "The comic doesn't always follow the letter of the rules" should be explanation enough, even if there happens to be a rules-based explanation.

    Besides, there's still no reason to believe that something different happened in that comic than was depicted.
    Last edited by orrion; 2014-02-25 at 10:27 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #1063
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Linker View Post
    {{scrubbed}}

    I apologize for the off-topicness.
    Best thing to come out of this thread.

    The Mod Wonder: And, yes, I'm aware of the irony.
    Last edited by Mark Hall; 2014-03-10 at 12:59 PM.
    THE SCRYING EYE AT THE END OF STRIP #698 WAS ZZ'DTRI'S (SOURCE)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gift Jeraff View Post
    elan: dad plz dont kill roy
    tarquin: ok
    Damn it! Now I have to rewrite the script for #917.
    One and the same.

  14. - Top - End - #1064
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Shale View Post
    I don't see the point in including every comment that boils down to "Rich composes panels for a reason." It's about as useful as explaining that shot of Banana ordering people around.
    That's not what it boils down to. It actually specifies the reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by orrion View Post
    I'd argue the intent was crystal clear from the comic itself, but they're not redundant.

    I'm not sure that's actually insight into the creative process. What does it tell you - that he doesn't portray horrific things in the comic? That's false. Horrific things have been portrayed before. This horrific thing was unnecessary and so it wasn't portrayed, but it doesn't tell you anything about what is or isn't unnecessary (which is where I'd think the insight would be).
    I'm still not sure why the fact that an answer doesn't tell us something other than what it tells us means it's not useful or actually insight. Sure, the answer could tell us more. But that doesn't mean it tells us nothing.

    In this case, he gave a specific reason about why he went with "chomp chomp."

    I don't think it needs to be included, it's basically 'the stuff that the comic depicted? That's what really happened. The end.'
    Actually, it says "That stuff a character said, but that wasn't depicted, really happened." I thought it actually happened when I read it, but the confusion between cleric and wizard command undead powers, and their abilities to command suicidal actions, has cropped up before.

    I assumed he was simply house-ruling, though, so there was new information in this for me.

    there's still no reason to believe that something different happened in that comic than was depicted.
    And yet, he posted that because someone did believe the different thing happened. Mainly because it wasn't actually depicted in the comic.
    Last edited by Kalmegil; 2014-02-25 at 10:31 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #1065
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalmegil View Post
    I'm still not sure why the fact that an answer doesn't tell us something other than what it tells us means it's not useful or actually insight. Sure, the answer could tell us more. But that doesn't mean it tells us nothing.

    In this case, he gave a specific reason about why he went with "chomp chomp."
    "Insight" means, basically, "an accurate and deep understanding." I didn't get a deep understanding of the creative process from the Giant telling me this information. I got an obvious and logical understanding - that he can't show everything and everything doesn't need to be shown for various reasons, respectively - but not a deep understanding. There's nothing under the surface here.

    Now, can I read some things under the surface based on it? Sure, but that would be me applying my interpretations and insights (or you applying yours) rather than the Giant giving me his.

    Actually, it says "That stuff a character said, but that wasn't depicted, really happened." I thought it actually happened when I read it, but the confusion between cleric and wizard command undead powers, and their abilities to command suicidal actions, has cropped up before.

    I assumed he was simply house-ruling, though, so there was new information in this for me.
    In which case the appropriate response is to do exactly what the Giant did - clarify the rules - rather than cite the Giant clarifying the rules. I think that discussion has been done in the comments threads before, and the consensus was, essentially, "just link the SRD."

    And yet, he posted that because someone did believe the different thing happened. Mainly because it wasn't actually depicted in the comic.
    I don't know if you noticed, but.. that poster does that kind of 'out there' theorizing like every week. There's a difference between genuine misunderstanding and just going out of the way to try and find stuff like this.

  16. - Top - End - #1066
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    You want to shoot down some theory quick, it's often more fruitful to link to something the Giant said than to point to a strip and say it proves your argument.
    I have to point out that you used the word "fruitful" in the sentence immediately before quoting The Linker's rendering of the Bandana-less Banana.

    As for the quote...we do already have this info linked in the Index, under Why Destroy Tsukiko's Remains if Redcloak was just going to tell Xykon he killed her?
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Redcloak drastically reduced the possibility that Xykon could question Tsukiko, the craftsman, or even the wights about his scheme by eliminating their corpses.
    That being the case, I don't see what this new quote would add.
    Last edited by Jasdoif; 2014-02-26 at 12:59 AM.
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    The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas

  17. - Top - End - #1067
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    I have to point out that you used the word "fruitful" in the sentence immediately before quoting The Linker's rendering of the Bandana-less Banana.
    I know! You got me. I saw that just after I'd posted and then dismissed the idea of editing it to acknowledge the terrible inherent pun. I had to pass on the idea of adding a segue along the lines of, "...and speaking of fruits...", and I couldn't think of some non-cheesy way to do it either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    As for the quote...we do already have this info linked in the Index, under Why Destroy Tsukiko's Remains if Redcloak was just going to tell Xykon he killed her?That being the case, I don't see what this new quote would add.
    It doesn't seem to address the dual uses of "Control Undead," however.

  18. - Top - End - #1068
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    I think both quotes are pointless to add.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Linker View Post
    {scrubbed}
    What is this magic!
    Last edited by kpenguin; 2014-03-05 at 10:15 PM.
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Linker View Post
    {scrubbed}
    *slow clap*
    Last edited by kpenguin; 2014-03-05 at 10:15 PM.
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Linker View Post
    {scrubbed}
    This cracks me up whenever I go back here to look at it. Which would be about every five minutes.
    Last edited by kpenguin; 2014-03-05 at 10:16 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by T-O-E View Post
    MAJOR SPOILERS. Seriously!
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    Don't say I didn't warn you.
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  21. - Top - End - #1071
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cizak View Post
    This cracks me up whenever I go back here to look at it. Which would be about every five minutes.
    I'm gonna vote that the third thread have "We've left a banana in charge" somewhere in the title.
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  22. - Top - End - #1072
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    I got an obvious and logical understanding - that he can't show everything and everything doesn't need to be shown for various reasons, respectively - but not a deep understanding. There's nothing under the surface here.
    And you got the specific reasons. You keep leaving that part out. Your paraphrase notwithstanding, we're not discussing a general statement. It's a specific statement that in this case, this particular reason led to the artistic choice.

    Now, can I read some things under the surface based on it? Sure, but that would be me applying my interpretations and insights (or you applying yours) rather than the Giant giving me his.
    That's a feature, not a bug. If the index is just to present complete and finished statements by the Giant that provide some arbitrarily selected level of "insight," I'd like to know that so I can stop dedicating time to it. But its purpose isn't limited to that. But as of now, at least, it's "meant primarily to provide easy access to direct statements from the author for the purpose of forum discussion." If that's not the case, the rules should be updated to reflect it.

    And that purpose is greatly served by a collection of specific statements by the Giant about why he made particular artistic choices in particular instances. It allows for discussion that goes far beyond "This comic meant X" and "Nuh uh! It meant Y!"

    It's a very common means of analysis to gather multiple situations, each with seeming simple meaning, and combine them to gain a deeper understanding. The fact that we know the Giant shows horrific scenes in some cases, but chose not to do so here, gives us additional knowledge about how he creates.

    This is a very common mode of analysis. It's used in literary criticism, legal reasoning, and throughout the social sciences (to generate the ideas that can then be experimentally tested). There's no reason to artificially limit the scope of the index to exclude this means of analysis from the discussions the index is meant to support.

    It's the combination of these so-called "surface" insights that allow discussion that goes beyond the typical speculation or clarification debates. Each time we exclude one because it, on its own, doesn't provide deep insight, we make it harder to use the index to discover the truly deep insights that would make discussions on here so much more interesting.

  23. - Top - End - #1073
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Linker View Post
    {scrubbed}

    I apologize for the off-topicness.
    Linker wins the internet. Linker wins MANY internets for this.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Last edited by kpenguin; 2014-03-05 at 10:17 PM.
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  24. - Top - End - #1074
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    As for the quote...we do already have this info linked in the Index, under Why Destroy Tsukiko's Remains if Redcloak was just going to tell Xykon he killed her?That being the case, I don't see what this new quote would add.
    Ah, nice. Yeah, that quote makes the one being proposed redundant.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post

    It doesn't seem to address the dual uses of "Control Undead," however.
    That's just a rules clarification, though. Why cite the Giant clarifying the rules when we can just cite the rules?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalmegil View Post
    And you got the specific reasons. You keep leaving that part out. Your paraphrase notwithstanding, we're not discussing a general statement. It's a specific statement that in this case, this particular reason led to the artistic choice.
    It's a reason. It might not be the only reason. For instance, he may have chosen to forgo showing that because it was even more chilling to show Redcloak's impassive demeanor in the face of it, and also because the audience, left to their own imaginations, will dream up their own horrors. Or because Tsukiko isn't a very important character, and Redcloak is. Or none of those reasons. Or 10 additional ones I didn't think of.

    The specific reason tells us zilch. It's not a rule, it's not a tenet, and it's not an explanation of or method for how/when/where to apply the reason.

    That's a feature, not a bug. If the index is just to present complete and finished statements by the Giant that provide some arbitrarily selected level of "insight," I'd like to know that so I can stop dedicating time to it. But its purpose isn't limited to that. But as of now, at least, it's "meant primarily to provide easy access to direct statements from the author for the purpose of forum discussion." If that's not the case, the rules should be updated to reflect it.
    It has to provide what fits the definition of the word. You're throwing "insight" around with regard to the creative process like it means "every single decision ever made no matter how big or small." That's not what "insight" means. That's like me telling you I had an orange for a snack yesterday afternoon because I was hungry and you telling me it provides insight into my eating habits.

    Might the huge combination of data eventually give you some insight? Yes, which I suppose is your point. Does that mean each individual comment is itself insightful? No. At best it's a misnomer.

    It's a very common means of analysis to gather multiple situations, each with seeming simple meaning, and combine them to gain a deeper understanding. The fact that we know the Giant shows horrific scenes in some cases, but chose not to do so here, gives us additional knowledge about how he creates.
    And that's where we disagree because such an analysis has no guarantee of being accurate. You cite the social sciences where they use the method to create a hypothesis to be tested - how exactly are you going to test yours here?


    We're just not going to agree on this, period. If you want to keep the quote for your own purposes, that's fine, but i don't think it needs to be indexed. Ironically, I think the quote Jasdoif mentions provides more insight than this one ever will.
    Last edited by orrion; 2014-02-26 at 12:04 PM.

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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Shale View Post
    I don't see the point in including every comment that boils down to "Rich composes panels for a reason." It's about as useful as explaining that shot of Banana ordering people around.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Linker View Post
    {scrubbed}

    I apologize for the off-topicness.
    Wow. The Linker just won this thread. Which is amazing, since this thread shouldn't be winnable.

    Hmm, what could we give as a consolation prize, since The Linker can't win the thread?

    Quote Originally Posted by Loreweaver15 View Post
    I'm gonna vote that the third thread have "We've left a banana in charge" somewhere in the title.
    There we go! Problem solved.

    (Seriously, The Linker, that was hilarious and amazing! Kudos!)

    Back on topic, I think that the quote about Redcloak using his Command Undead class feature and not the Command Undead Cleric spell, could be an addendum to the "Why Redcloak had the Wights Eat Tsukiko" post.
    Last edited by kpenguin; 2014-03-05 at 10:17 PM.
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir_Leorik View Post
    Wow. The Linker just won this thread. Which is amazing, since this thread shouldn't be winnable.

    Hmm, what could we give as a consolation prize, since The Linker can't win the thread?
    I'm... not getting the joke. Which, of course, means that as soon as somebody explains it to me it won't be nearly as funny, but hey...
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    I left the "D" out of Bandana's name and Linker turned that brain-fart into a moment of utter beauty.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant
    Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar. Sometimes, characters that have a similar hairstyle just have a similar hairstyle. How many hairstyles do you think there are that can be drawn in stick figure style, anyway?

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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cizak View Post
    This cracks me up whenever I go back here to look at it. Which would be about every five minutes.
    It's funny, because that was exactly what I kept doing with Shale's original post. I went from 'Heh, that's a pretty funny typo,' to laughing myself silly every time I thought back to it. It was an inherently funny sentence!

    I really wanted to mention it but just pointing and laughing at a typo seemed kind of lame without actually adding something. So I did that.


    Oh, and for the record, I don't think the new quote's much worth including.
    Last edited by The Linker; 2014-02-26 at 12:47 PM.

  29. - Top - End - #1079
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zherog View Post
    I'm... not getting the joke. Which, of course, means that as soon as somebody explains it to me it won't be nearly as funny, but hey...
    The joke was meant to be that this thread is meant for serious business, namely updating the Index, and then The Linker has to go and crack everyone up, by taking Shale's repeated misspelling of Bandana's name and turning that typo into a comedic masterpiece. Hence my comment about The Linker winning an otherwise unwinnable thread.
    Farewell Durkon! May you merit to enter Valhalla and share a drink with your pa!

  30. - Top - End - #1080
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Jasdoif's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    I had to pass on the idea of adding a segue along the lines of, "...and speaking of fruits...", and I couldn't think of some non-cheesy way to do it either.
    Ah, so you prefer a fruity way to a cheesy way...dang it, now I'm hungry

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir_Leorik View Post
    The joke was meant to be that this thread is meant for serious business, namely updating the Index, and then The Linker has to go and crack everyone up, by taking Shale's repeated misspelling of Bandana's name and turning that typo into a comedic masterpiece.
    I don't see why serious business and comedic masterpieces should be mutually exclusive, myself.
    Feytouched Banana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!

    The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas

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