Hero Oh Hero (path to greater good reboot)

[Neoriceisgood]

Yo!



I used to have a comic that started out on the Giantitp forums called Path To Greater Good, which I killed for a while due to a few issues.

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art, impossible format to update, issues with story, there's an enormous list I won't type out without anyone asking.

I haven't actively posted about my new comic in these forums (aside from my signature, obviously) cause I felt I'd let the archive build up past 100 pages first. (update: reaching nearly 400 pages now though.)

My comic can be found at: www.neorice.com It's fantasy/humor and pixelart/sprite based.

Changes for old readers:
Art:

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A comparison of the very first page's art in PTGG & Hero oh Hero

The old comic's art was all over the place, but I've finally settled on a style that I'm comfortable with using till the end of days.
Story: The comic used to have 3 seperate stories that switched around every 10 pages or so. All three stories will be back but to keep everything a bit more streamlined I'm handling it chapter by chapter.
Story II: Eventhough this is a reboot, to keep it interesting for old readers I'm not simply using old pages with new art. There'll be a lot of overlap in characters and progression as time goes on; But it's essentially a new story in a lot of ways as well.
Characters(large image warning)

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Characters are largely the same in the long run, though some might have unexpected changes ranging from visual to their role in the story. If you liked any character from the old comic & they're in the above spritesheet, they'll be back eventually.

Hope you guys enjoy reading!

[Fion MacCumhail]

i rather liked the old style back when i did my archive binge...

[Neoriceisgood]

i rather liked the old style back when i did my archive binge...

Old style of art?

[Grif]

Old style of art?

I had thought the old style was rather charming.

New one looks good too, though it'll take some getting used to.

[TaiLiu]

art, impossible format to update, issues with story, there's an enormous list I won't type out without anyone asking.

I am asking, especially considering that there seemed to be no problems on the surface.

[Neoriceisgood]

I had thought the old style was rather charming.

New one looks good too, though it'll take some getting used to.

I guess a funny thing with the "old style" is how many different ones I ended up having. At least with this new one, once people are used to it they can know it's permanent.

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I am asking, especially considering that there seemed to be no problems on the surface.

I think the two biggest "surface" problems that might've been obvious
would be;

1. Constantly missing updates/going on hiatus.
2. The depression/problems with school I was having, which I often
talked about in journals.

Behind the surface ..

3. The constant switching of art styles wasn't just a gimmick or for fun, I had enormous problems with almost any style I used.
Most of them were either too simple and unimpressive, or they were so detailed and time consuming that it destroyed my update rate.

4. The only styles I felt comfortable with for artistic merrit destroyed my ability to get unique backgrounds done in time. Anyone who has read through the "castle arc' in Burk's old archive who paid attention might notice I kept reusing the same castle hallway background. This was not by choice, the art was so difficult for me to create at a rapid speed that even with one update a week I couldn't manage to get as many unique backgrounds done as possible.

5. Eventhough most readers didn't seem to mind that much, the inconsistent art style and page sizes personally pissed me off.

6. I made one or two major choices in one of the storylines I seriously regret.

I think those are the major ones, there's a few more but I'm sorta tired and forgetful.

[Dragonus45]

Oh hey I remember this, I'm really looking forward to starting reading this again.

[Grif]

I'll say this. I don't quite dig the new style.

A lot of the time, I found it difficult to tell what the characters was doing, as their bodies (or their outlines, rather) seemed oddly blurred together. More importantly, even the expressions can be hard to see at times. To illustrate, 8-Bit Theatre had sharper outlines (and better colour selection, possibly?), which made it easier to see what the individual characters were doing, despite their low-res quality.

The story itself seems to have changed significantly, to my knowledge. Was hoping to see more of mecha-girl, (I forgot her name), but eh, it might be too early to tell whether for good or worse.

[Neoriceisgood]

Oh hey I remember this, I'm really looking forward to starting reading this again.

Thanks! I hope you enjoy reading.

I'll say this. I don't quite dig the new style.

Shame, gonna have to split this one up though:

A lot of the time, I found it difficult to tell what the characters was doing, as their bodies (or their outlines, rather) seemed oddly blurred together.

This might not have to do with their bodies as much as with the fact that I switched to pixelart backgrounds.

More importantly, even the expressions can be hard to see at times. To illustrate, 8-Bit Theatre had sharper outlines (and better colour selection, possibly?), which made it easier to see what the individual characters were doing, despite their low-res quality.

A few big differences with 8-bit:

1. As far as I know 8-bit barely uses expressions (the characters barely have faces to begin with) so I'm not -entirely- sure what you're talking about there.

2. for body/poses and readability in contrast to a BG a big difference is that 8-bit uses blurred google photos as backgrounds, I use pixelart.

The sharp pixelart backgrounds can in some cases lead to the pixelart of the characters being slightly less readable than on a painted/photo BG.

3. The old comic went through several different unique art styles, so I'm not sure what particular one you miss.

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http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2013/299/1/1/burk_art_progression_by_neoriceisgood-d6rvv6v.png

They all had enormous readability problems at points though. People just ignored this during the earlier pages as a lot of readers admitted only paying attention to the character portraits. (which took more time than the actual pages btw, which is why I stopped doing them.)


I'm not sure if those points explain your readability problems.. I've been playing around with more readable light for the comic (around page 162 you should find characters to stand out from the BG a lot more as I found a trick to make them more readable) so that might solve issues slightly.

The story itself seems to have changed significantly, to my knowledge. Was hoping to see more of mecha-girl, (I forgot her name), but eh, it might be too early to tell whether for good or worse.

Burk, Noah & Tobi will all return as in the old comic. The big difference is that this time around I decided to try and do one entire chapter for each character rather than switching storyline every 10-20 pages. (this helps me a lot with keeping a consistent update rate.)


Anyway, it's a shame to hear you're having some mild issues with the style. :/ I will say that the current one helps my update rate A LOT like..

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My old comic at one point took me around a week to get a single page done, and I still didn't have time to get backgrounds made.

With the current comic I manage to do 10 new pages over a weekend, design several new characters & make more backgrounds than I imagine needing for the next year when I have time left. The increase in update speed is insane.

[Grif]

Mmm, that explains a lot. Mind, I've not stopping reading yet, but having to squint to tell what was going on was beginning to frustrate me. I have not noticed any significant change pre and post page 162, but well, we'll see.

I'm glad you found a style you're comfortable with though.

[Neoriceisgood]

Mmm, that explains a lot. Mind, I've not stopping reading yet, but having to squint to tell what was going on was beginning to frustrate me. I have not noticed any significant change pre and post page 162, but well, we'll see.

I'm glad you found a style you're comfortable with though.

162 isn't up yet, the comic's currently updated to 132.

Do you find the expressions hard to read on the zoomed in panels as well?

[Grif]

162 isn't up yet, the comic's currently updated to 132.

Do you find the expressions hard to read on the zoomed in panels as well?

Oh, my bad. Was in a hurry and didn't check. (I swear I thought I read 162 somewhere.)

In any case, yes, I do find the expressions a tad hard to tell as well. I mean, it's obvious after some squinting (and hindsight), but not at a glance.

[Neoriceisgood]

Oh, my bad. Was in a hurry and didn't check. (I swear I thought I read 162 somewhere.)

In any case, yes, I do find the expressions a tad hard to tell as well. I mean, it's obvious after some squinting (and hindsight), but not at a glance.

Hm, and you had no problems with this in the old comic on the pages that had no portraits?

[Grif]

Hm, and you had no problems with this in the old comic on the pages that had no portraits?

I don't recall having any such complaints previously. To be fair though, my memory of your old comic was quite fuzzy (and probably rose-tinted to boot), and I no longer have references to them.

[Neoriceisgood]

I don't recall having any such complaints previously. To be fair though, my memory of your old comic was quite fuzzy (and probably rose-tinted to boot), and I no longer have references to them.

I don't quite remember the link to the old archive,
but here's various pages in old styles I used:

http://neoriceisgood.deviantart.com/gallery/7371497

I think the only styles missing there are the two I used for like 3-5 pages at the end of the old comic's life.

I don't particularly feel the old sprites had clearer expressions myself, but maybe I'm missing something.

[Trazoi]

I like your current sprites (but I also liked your old sprites too!).

If there was one issue with the current sprites, it's that your backgrounds are now so detailed that the sprites can get lost in them. For example in the current comics with a twilight colour palette, everything blends together. This doesn't apply to the zoomed in portrait panels though, where you're using a more colourful palette and a white outline for the character sprites so they stand out.

As far as expressions go I think they're fine; maybe a little subdued compared to webcomics in general but that's a limitation of non-animated pixel art.

[Neoriceisgood]

I like your current sprites (but I also liked your old sprites too!).

If there was one issue with the current sprites, it's that your backgrounds are now so detailed that the sprites can get lost in them. For example in the current comics with a twilight colour palette, everything blends together. This doesn't apply to the zoomed in portrait panels though, where you're using a more colourful palette and a white outline for the character sprites so they stand out.

As far as expressions go I think they're fine; maybe a little subdued compared to webcomics in general but that's a limitation of non-animated pixel art.

Yeah the blend in is something I noticed. Around 165 (which should pop up in a few weeks) I actually try to use a seperate light filter for character sprites & the background to counter this issue.

A big problem comes from the fact that, especially if I go for pixelart backgrounds, I'm sorta left having to pick between high quality backgrounds that might affect readability a bit .. or backgrounds that sorta look like **** >_>

Maybe some day I'll find a better balance between those two.

[Gez]

The one thing that has always annoyed me with APTGG and HOH: the navigation arrows. On nearly every other webcomic, it goes:

[<==First==] [<--Previous--] [--Next-->] [==Last==>]

Here you go the other way around, and it always throw me off:

[<--Previous--] [<==First==] [==Last==>] [--Next-->]

[Neoriceisgood]

The one thing that has always annoyed me with APTGG and HOH: the navigation arrows. On nearly every other webcomic, it goes:

[<==First==] [<--Previous--] [--Next-->] [==Last==>]

Here you go the other way around, and it always throw me off:

[<--Previous--] [<==First==] [==Last==>] [--Next-->]

Well all other webcomics are wrong.

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[Eldhusgaur]

I started reading around number 50 (of the new art style) and I highly enjoy your comic in its current form. I think that the old art style doesn't complement snarky ham . Thank you for your hard work Neorice!
Such pigs, so ham, wow

[Neoriceisgood]

I started reading around number 50 (of the new art style) and I highly enjoy your comic in its current form. I think that the old art style doesn't complement snarky ham . Thank you for your hard work Neorice!
Such pigs, so ham, wow

Thanks a lot! I did feel that the current style does fit the general atmosphere/humor a bit better myself. (there's plenty styles I could've designed that took this level of effort, this one stuck for me tho)


Little sprite update for readers:



I'm getting around the end of chapter 1 so I've been working hard on getting all the sprite work done for the next part. Haircolour change aside, I hope old readers still recognise him.


I had a small question btw: Burk's story is rounding off and seems like it'll be settled around 200 pages or so. I feel like that might be a bit too much time spent on a single character when I've got 3 seperate ones I want to put in the spotlight.

Considering work on chapter 2 is gonna start within the next few weeks I'd appreciate some feedback on what you prefer:

1. current format is fine, 200 pages is a lot but at least it means a chapter gets rounded down entirely.

2. Round chapters down but make them shorter. (50 pages? 100 pages? please specify what chapter size'd feel good to you)

3. Always cut off the story after x pages to switch to another character, regardless of a chapter being finished or not. (30, 50, 100; just name a number)

It'd be nice to know what'd feel best to readers. After all doing a comic is a learning experience. (and I know people who read Goblins got sorta annoyed when it stuck to one storyline waaay too long.)

[Gez]

1. current format is fine, 200 pages is a lot but at least it means a chapter gets rounded down entirely.

That's my vote. Alternatively:

3. Always cut off the story after x pages to switch to another character, regardless of a chapter being finished or not. (30, 50, 100; just name a number)

Shouldn't get too hung up on a number. If you switch between characters, I'd suggest switches should happen anytime between 5 to 50 pages, as appropriate for the ongoing scenes.

I'd also suggest making a full chapter for each of the three main characters (it's still three characters, right?) and only then go on chapters that mix all three. So they all get to have a proper introduction that establishes them as main characters, instead of being nothing but supporting cast for Burk.

[Neoriceisgood]

I'd also suggest making a full chapter for each of the three main characters (it's still three characters, right?) and only then go on chapters that mix all three. So they all get to have a proper introduction that establishes them as main characters, instead of being nothing but supporting cast for Burk.

I do plan on getting an establishing chapter in for all three of em first, yeah.

I just realised that'd be a looong time without the others if it was a permanent format.

[Lissou]

I am so, so happy to see this! When did it reboot? I loved the old comic.

I was in the thread for the calendar, where the Giant mentioned having said something in the latest strip's thread. I don't usually go there but I checked as I wanted to know what he had said... saw a post by you, immediately clicked and read with delight... but somehow managed to miss the fact that it was a reboot for a long while! Heh.

I guess I didn't automatically recognise Burk as my memories of the old version of the script mostly revolve around Noah.

I'm happy to know they're all coming back! No real problem with the style, except that it doesn't seem very fit for printing, which is a shame as I like being able to read on paper (or e-paper), since reading on a screen hurts my eyes and head.

Still, I read the whole archives up to date yesterday, and today looked for a thread on the comic. I want to reiterate my support and I might not read every update as it goes out, but I'll come back for more again and again!

[Neoriceisgood]

I am so, so happy to see this! When did it reboot? I loved the old comic.

I was in the thread for the calendar, where the Giant mentioned having said something in the latest strip's thread. I don't usually go there but I checked as I wanted to know what he had said... saw a post by you, immediately clicked and read with delight... but somehow managed to miss the fact that it was a reboot for a long while! Heh.

I guess I didn't automatically recognise Burk as my memories of the old version of the script mostly revolve around Noah.

I'm happy to know they're all coming back! No real problem with the style, except that it doesn't seem very fit for printing, which is a shame as I like being able to read on paper (or e-paper), since reading on a screen hurts my eyes and head.

Still, I read the whole archives up to date yesterday, and today looked for a thread on the comic. I want to reiterate my support and I might not read every update as it goes out, but I'll come back for more again and again!

Yo Lissou! Super nice to see you again. I don't post much on these boards nowadays (only send glass mouse PMs for sunday's challenge every week, hahahah) so I guess it'd be pretty easy to miss the reboot.

My first page got posted in January 2013 so ... I guess I've been at it for a year or so now? (time goes fast... +- 150 pages per year, huh? interesting to know that.)

Anyway I'm glad you dig the new style & all that. I'm curious though, why would it be bad for print? I'm probably missing something there.


Anyway while I'm posting,
here's a few sprites that I decided to fix/improve quality wise:

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just a small thing and none of these characters have shown up yet, but I like showing you guys updates to the art and what not.


Comic's still going strong, 151 pages posted & my buffer's up to page 203 right now.

[Lissou]

Anyway I'm glad you dig the new style & all that. I'm curious though, why would it be bad for print? I'm probably missing something there.

Oh, I have been told before that pixel art doesn't work well in print, or something... But come to think of it, it works fine for game magazines so... I'm probably wrong about that. Why were you thinking of collecting them into printed books (maybe, eventually)? I would definitely be interested but... I understand that you'll need a strong following first.

150 pages in a year is pretty good. That's a bit under 3 pages a week, definitely a good rhythm, especially since you say you have a good buffer, and premade sprites, etc. If you've been working on the ones you'll need for the other stories, that would slow you down at first (a lot of initial work that doesn't pay off while Burk is in the spotlight) but that would free more time to work on strips once all the main stories have started and you'll need less new characters or backgrounds...

Of course that depends on when you plan on switching from one story to the next. If it's when a story is changing setting, for instance, then you'd still need to work on stuff for the new setting.

Anyways, I can't wait to read more. It will be hard to wait for each story to come back if it takes over a year, but thankfully I like all of them (well, I assume. I guess I'll have to see the other two reboots to know for sure :))

[Neoriceisgood]

Oh, I have been told before that pixel art doesn't work well in print, or something... But come to think of it, it works fine for game magazines so... I'm probably wrong about that. Why were you thinking of collecting them into printed books (maybe, eventually)? I would definitely be interested but... I understand that you'll need a strong following first.

Yeah I'd have no problems with it, but right now I'm still working towards getting my following up to uh ... well, I'd be happy if I got my old comic's size back to be honest. x_x It's been reduced to a 10th since those days.

150 pages in a year is pretty good. That's a bit under 3 pages a week, definitely a good rhythm, especially since you say you have a good buffer, and premade sprites, etc. If you've been working on the ones you'll need for the other stories, that would slow you down at first (a lot of initial work that doesn't pay off while Burk is in the spotlight) but that would free more time to work on strips once all the main stories have started and you'll need less new characters or backgrounds...

Mhm. I actually have a ton of characters and backgrounds made. (as you'll note in my first post, which has an image of 100 premade sprites) I'll always run into the occasional moment where I realise a new story/chapter needs more/different backgrounds than expected but with my current art style it's a piece of cake.

Honestly the only moments that reduce momentum are extended fight scenes. There's one in Burk's buffer right now that required like 2-3 new sprites per page. That's a lot harder than the more cut-and-paste pages that require a new expression tops.

Of course that depends on when you plan on switching from one story to the next. If it's when a story is changing setting, for instance, then you'd still need to work on stuff for the new setting.

I tend to make sure I have most bare necessities for the next chapter's setting essentially done/largely done before I get to it. And the more assets I get in the progress of making the comic, the easier it can be to reuse stuff.

Anyways, I can't wait to read more. It will be hard to wait for each story to come back if it takes over a year, but thankfully I like all of them (well, I assume. I guess I'll have to see the other two reboots to know for sure :))

Yeah, I honestly hope all 3 will be lovable. I'll try to cut the chapter size a bit to make sure no character vanishes for too long though. The pacing in Burk's first chapter was a tad slower than I had hoped, but it's a learning process anyway. (at least the art's incredibly consistent this time around, hahahah)

[Neoriceisgood]

Yo!

I hope you guys are enjoying the 3x weekly updates. I've been trying real hard to build a solid buffer to avoid any and all hiatus problems I've had in the past.

It's actually been growing rapidly recently, going from +-46 pages to 68 buffer pages. (I'm hoping to build it up to at least 75 in the next two weeks & 100 buffer pages before the summer.)

On an additional note: I've actually started Chapter 2 buffer-wise, which is Noah's story. It'll still take a while to get there for readers but I figured it'd be nice to let ya all know.

Slightly related,
during the break of my old comic & the reboot I actually did a full practice comic to figure out a style/pace I could work with for my reboot.

The entire practice comic (called "TOM RPG") can be found here, for those interested:

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Full Tom RPG comic:
http://imgur.com/a/81Aas#0


It's just a minor side story I did for practice, but canonically speaking it does take place in the same world as Hero Oh Hero. So I figured I'd share it for those interested. (and if you like my comic, this is 110+- pages in the same style!)

Anyway peace out and enjoy!

[random_guy]

I am a fan of a Path to the Greater Good. Now, I am a fan of Hero Oh Hero. I see that the bandit's role in the story has changed. Will 3's role in the story change as well?

It looks like the White Terror and Sunny will be in the reboot. I thought they were interesting characters that added to the setting's lore.

Off topic: By the way, are you the same neorice that worked on Battle for Wesnoth?

[Neoriceisgood]

I am a fan of a Path to the Greater Good. Now, I am a fan of Hero Oh Hero. I see that the bandit's role in the story has changed. Will 3's role in the story change as well?

It looks like the White Terror and Sunny will be in the reboot. I thought they were interesting characters that added to the setting's lore.

I'd say Three is one of the characters that will probably stay most similar to his old role.

If people are interested I can post some 1 on 1 art comparisons of characters from the old comic & new ones; Probably with some hints as to who'll change and who will stay largely the same.

Lemme know if that's appreciated and I'll pop something into the thread!

Off topic: By the way, are you the same neorice that worked on Battle for Wesnoth?

Yup, that's me!