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2013-12-12, 09:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files II: Dealing Drugs To Tiny Faeries
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2013-12-12, 09:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files II: Dealing Drugs To Tiny Faeries
It doesn't matter if the limits are self-imposed or not. They are still limits. And whatever reasons the WG have for following them, it's stronger than his desires to interfere.
Maybe it for morality. Maybe it's because it's some sort of covenant with another entity. Who knows?
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2013-12-12, 10:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files II: Dealing Drugs To Tiny Faeries
I love it. I'm gonna have to use that in the future.
Though, in seriousness, if one talks about "not having limits", it brings up more fundamental questions. Like--if there is a limitless being, does that mean that said being does not adhere to the Law of Identity? (That is, "A is A".) There's limits, and then there's Limits--can a limitless being commit that which is actually impossible? (As opposed to that which is unfeasible, which humans often misuse the term "impossible" to mean. Or, rather, "impossible" means "impossible for a human".)Last edited by CarpeGuitarrem; 2013-12-12 at 10:30 AM.
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2013-12-12, 10:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files II: Dealing Drugs To Tiny Faeries
Like burning water?
As in; no the vaporisation of water from liquid to steam. Not a burning reaction of some chemical component provoked by the presence of water.
But the ACTUAL BURNING of water molecule; which should be theorically impossible. Something that actually defies reality on a fundamental level.
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2013-12-12, 10:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files II: Dealing Drugs To Tiny Faeries
Descartes answer on the nature of omnipotence is that it indeed can do the highly illogical and actively contradictory. Literally: just 'cuz anything means anything.
We mere mortals merely cannot grasp such a concept very well.
Other views are out there. I'm with Mr. Thinker myself on omnipotence but see the others as more "defining" omnipotence then ascribing true limits. Because most of these sorts of logic bombs arise from toying with things defined to be the opposite of one another, I'd argue that omnipotence creating a limited situation with an opposite that then counters... isn't a meaningful limit.
Well a self-imposed limitation would allow for say a hypothetical Godzilla Threshold at which they would be disregarded. And merely 'logical' limitations aren't going to be terribly meaningful unless for some reason there is someone that can break those.
And the more practical end of this is how far up can our stakes go?
Like the Outsider conflict, could be more of a "turf war" for supernatural entities like the Faires and there would be limits on what Outsiders could do to the mortal (living and dead) world even in victory for example. As opposed to say the absolute annhilation of everything by eldritch and alien entities.
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2013-12-12, 11:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files II: Dealing Drugs To Tiny Faeries
Why wouldn't the White God have created the Outsiders as well as our world?
You work under the assumption that WG (we need to have a better name than this acronym. I'm calling Him Wedge). You work under the assumption that Wedge is omnipotent. Then he created everything; otherwise something ELSE has created the Outsiders outside of his domain, and thus Wedge ain't omniponent.
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2013-12-12, 12:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files II: Dealing Drugs To Tiny Faeries
The Outsiders are only monstrous because they are foreign creatures from an unknowable world. They do not belong here they are anathema to our realm. But back in their realm they fit in just fine. They belong there.
The White God created all the different realms/dimensions/branes/planes & any other word you would like to use to differentiate the Outsiders home & ours. He created this one for us & the Outsiders home for outsiders. But now the Outsiders are trying to invade other worlds
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2013-12-12, 12:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files II: Dealing Drugs To Tiny Faeries
From what we see of his forces (Uriel, the KotC), Wedge clearly values Free Will. That's why he lets us humans do horrible things to each other despite not liking that at all. However, if he was omnipotent, than wouldn't he be able to enable Free Will to the fullest while also not letting things like the torturing of Shiro happen?
There's also how multiple RL religions are "true" in the books. Jim has gone on record as saying that he really doesn't want to offend believers. Making Wedge omnipotent kind of trivializes the Hindu gods (for example). I'd say that Jim is going to do a handwavy "the truth of the matter is too complex for humans to understand" or something to that effect.
What evidence do you have for these assertions? Can I get some quotes?
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2013-12-12, 12:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files II: Dealing Drugs To Tiny Faeries
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2013-12-12, 12:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files II: Dealing Drugs To Tiny Faeries
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2013-12-12, 12:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files II: Dealing Drugs To Tiny Faeries
In that case, though, the idea of "free" would cease to have meaning. It becomes arbitrary ("well, sometimes, freedom means 'unrestricted'..."), and therefore not actually reality. You can't mess with ontologically foundational concepts without consequences.
I think it's a bit of a cop-out to say that something which seems nonsensical in concept to us is simply beyond our ken. The idea that omnipotence can redefine definition itself is just begging to go down the rabbit-hole of absurdity.
(Case in point: can an omnipotent being never have existed? They can do anything, after all, so they can never exist. But they should also be able to simultaneously exist, because they can do anything, including existing and not existing at the same time. Schroedinger's Omnipotence. Can an omnipotent being also be not omnipotent? Because they can do anything, including being not omnipotent. At the same time that they are omnipotent. See my point? )Last edited by CarpeGuitarrem; 2013-12-12 at 12:45 PM.
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2013-12-12, 12:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files II: Dealing Drugs To Tiny Faeries
For what we've seen, Wedge creates the universe, he creates the rules and he creates balancing forces. these forces all have free will; be it Humanity, the Angels, the Fay, the Denerims or the Outsiders.
Wedge does not control what everybody wants to do; he merely has created measures to deal with what he feels are disruptions; undesired interferences.
The Outsiders have decided of their own free will to conquer our 'verse, and Wedge created the Winter Fay to protect ourselves against the Outsiders. And then created the Summer Fay to protect ourselves against Winter.
Each and everyone in these factions can decide to just throw their hands in the air and say "screw it" if they will it so, and Wedge has nothing to say about it. However, he prepare contingencies ahead.
So.. Wedge cannot do anything. The question is not "would Wedge interfere", but instead "has Wedge planned for that eventuality?"
Btw: I really love this pet name of ours.
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2013-12-12, 01:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files II: Dealing Drugs To Tiny Faeries
I would say omnipotence doesn't mean you can do the illogical. That said many things we think of as "logical" really just have underlying assumptions that an omnipotent being could play merry hell with.
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2013-12-12, 01:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files II: Dealing Drugs To Tiny Faeries
And this is another reason why Wedge probably isn't omnipotent. Does JB really want to have to deal with this stuff? Why would even bother when it wouldn't clash with the DF at all to have Wedge be non-omnipotent? Unless it's extremely crucial to some future plot, I just don't see a reason for JB to make him omnipotent and a bunch of reasons not to.
While the forces of Wedge and his enemies down below might think he created the universe, I'd say that there's a strong possibility that the truth is much more complex.
Also, where are you getting that Outsiders have Free Will?
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2013-12-12, 01:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files II: Dealing Drugs To Tiny Faeries
I don't presume otherwise... my working conceptual frame work is
Spoiler: Ob.Lv.OnIts all just the Venatori's mess.
Desire to is not the same as capability.
And leave it there for the purposes of this thread methinks
That very absurdity is something of the point. Why do you question absurdity if anything means anything doesn't it override that? Isn't that just your bias towards a nice rational and understandable world rearing its head? Are you questioning absolutely everything enough. Solipsistically enough? That's the sort of abstract removal from the (presumed) common experience of reality we are talking about here.
Likewise shouldn't by definition we be incapable of understanding something beyond our understanding. Wouldn't understanding everything potentially require infinite capacity for understanding. I think as much as we can know that we can conclude most people are too busy to understand everything and instead specialize, which implies less then infinite ability to comprehend as a species. So isn't it simply another bias to assume that we can understand everything merely because we've expanded knowledge in the past. (Obviously the universe *may* be completely comprehensible but that is essentially happenstance in this circumstand.
Something vaguely like how science presents situations we cannot visualize. Can the circle grasp the sphere? Or perhaps even the reverse since even Flatland cheated with a miniscule third dimension for our benefit.
I dare venture most folks heads will just give up. And that's why Mr. Sunshine and Lash going "you wouldn't understand" is passable... certainly Jim Butcher isn't going to give us these sorts of abstract answers. If they were easy people wouldn't still ask them.
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2013-12-12, 03:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files II: Dealing Drugs To Tiny Faeries
For all intents and purposes the WG, a.k.a. Wedge a.k.a. Mister is Omnipotent. An archangel could explode every planet everywhere. Mister is the one who decided to limit angels. Wedge is omniscient on top of that. WG might as well be all-powerful.
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2013-12-12, 03:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files II: Dealing Drugs To Tiny Faeries
Huh. I was under the impression that Wedge created reality. As in, our reality, including Faeries and the like. But not the outside.
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2013-12-12, 04:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files II: Dealing Drugs To Tiny Faeries
Last edited by Avilan the Grey; 2013-12-12 at 04:30 PM.
Blizzard Battletag: UnderDog#21677
Shepard: "Wrex! Do we have mawsign?"
Wrex: "Shepard, we have mawsign the likes of which even Reapers have never seen!"
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2013-12-12, 04:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files II: Dealing Drugs To Tiny Faeries
Not at all. The Nevernever contains "everything", but its all lies really. You get to Heaven by dying, going to the in between train station and taking the North-bound train. In the Nevernever you can get something that looks like whatever you imagine Heaven to be. With a little Lucid dreaming, you can probably make your own heaven, and fill it with whatever details you want. But its not the Heaven where the dead go.
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2013-12-12, 04:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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2013-12-12, 05:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files II: Dealing Drugs To Tiny Faeries
We still don't have a good picture on what Outside is in a full sense to call it not a part of "creation" if you will, just not considered part of reality. He don't know much of the past or how this stuff got set up.
Though Thomas's side story with some of Harry's off hand mention line up to maybe tell us. I keep idea that well salted though so it doesn't go bad on me.
Michael cutting up Outsiders without even noticing in Proven Guilty and for that matter Harry's own super special status suggests to me that the Outsiders aren't somehow accounted for in the Big Plan.
Wasn't that very early on? Anything from the first three books or so should be taken very loosely for cosmology
For example in book one there Toot threatens to "Tell the Queen" and its singular not "oh which one?" or anything nevermind he's Wyldfae. Harry mumbles stuff about Michael running on faith magic in book three and hasn't much since then.
That said the Nevernever in the sense of "not Earth" can still imply... but they may well run on special rules.
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2013-12-12, 06:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files II: Dealing Drugs To Tiny Faeries
I really like the idea that the Outside is The Deeps and the Outsiders are Tehom (both from Abrahamic mythology). I may be biased a bit .Here's more details if anyone's interested. Disregard the parts where I call it a "theory" if you wish. I'm not trying to argue that it will be included in the books. It's just a favorite idea of mine that I think makes a lot of sense.
I don't have the book so I can't get an exact quote but I do remember Bob saying that almost everything exists in the NN (spiderman was the specific example IIRC) in Cold Days. There's also a WoJ I recall where Jim says you can go to the Star Wars universe in the DF (though it would be quite hard) but you wouldn't want to (jedi are scary if you aren't one). I'll see if I can dig it up.Last edited by 123456789blaaa; 2013-12-12 at 07:12 PM.
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2013-12-12, 10:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files II: Dealing Drugs To Tiny Faeries
I'd be a little surprised by anything so specific.
I will point out that a Tiamat connection weakens things by the way... she's not an Outsider and has been mentioned to have benefited from the Monster Manual.
Also your own quote from the Walker would raise an inconsistency with being the remnants of before the world. If they were always outside the world was never theirs.
Also since when do Outsiders have a hivemind? So help me it was stated they all work together, which is different. Nemesis quite probably is some form of that, but we don't strictly know yet.
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2013-12-13, 01:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files II: Dealing Drugs To Tiny Faeries
Because no one knows what happens after you die. If you can just walk up to the somewhere in the NN and find everyone's soul that would go away in about two seconds. The dead in general, do not end up in the Nevernever. They end up in the start of Ghost Story.
I don't have my books at school nor would I have time to dig though them, but it would be hard to make much sense if they were in the NN.
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2013-12-13, 01:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files II: Dealing Drugs To Tiny Faeries
Okay. Look at it this way.
There is all of creation. This is everything that does/can exist.
Creation is divided up in it's own little bubbles so that no part is anathema to any other. (In other words "Don't cross the streams")
Dresden's Earth is one reality, Fury's world is another, the outsider's yet another.
Focusing on Dresden's Earth there is the material plane, & the NeverNever. The NeverNever is a nebulous metaexistance based upon the metabeliefs of the material plane. The NeverNever extends out/within our Reality until it reaches it's conclusion at the Outer Gates. Because this is a metaexistance don't picture it as map with concentric circles. The Outer Gates symbolizes the furthest extent our our Reality. Kind of like a Lemniscate that ties the ends of Reality together. This is why the Outsiders are attacking it. It is literally a figurative existence of mortal thought & all of mortal thought can reside within (though it may be altered from common beliefs & ideas)
Now the outsiders come from another bubble reality & they want to get into ours as well.
Uri (don't forget the El) knows about Outsiders. Lashiel knows about Outsiders. The White Gods magic/will/Swords/Fists work just as well against them as any other evil threat.
This suggests that the White God (also viewed as the guy behind all of Creation) created the Outsiders as well. The White God exists outside of our Reality bubble within the whole of Creation. Heaven & Hell could be places in the NeverNever or a Reality bubble in their own right, we have no proof one way or another. Especially if you argue about the nature of Heaven as the mortal afterlife or as the Seat of the White God & his Host
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2013-12-13, 01:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files II: Dealing Drugs To Tiny Faeries
We call him Wedge
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2013-12-13, 02:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files II: Dealing Drugs To Tiny Faeries
The point is that until proven differently by the books, I am going by what the books say: The "Creation" is our universe and others like it. The outsiders are, as specified by the books themselves, OUTSIDE creation. They are NOT "another creation", they are outside REALITY as such.
And there's where you are wrong. It makes perfect sense.
Also, "The place in the beginning of Ghost Story" IS in the Never Never.
Besides If it was a place outside it, the guardians wouldn't need to exist.Last edited by Avilan the Grey; 2013-12-13 at 02:17 AM.
Blizzard Battletag: UnderDog#21677
Shepard: "Wrex! Do we have mawsign?"
Wrex: "Shepard, we have mawsign the likes of which even Reapers have never seen!"
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2013-12-13, 05:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files II: Dealing Drugs To Tiny Faeries
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2013-12-13, 06:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files II: Dealing Drugs To Tiny Faeries
Here's the exact quote from Bob.
Originally Posted by Ghost Story Page 298, Nook Edition
Not that I necessarily believe that the White God's Creation is the one and only universe in the Dresdenverse cosmology.
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2013-12-13, 06:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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