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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Person_Man's Niche Ranking System

    Debates about Tiers and class design are a regular feature on this forum. So I thought it might be handy if we actually made and discussed a list of all of the different niches a class can generally fill in a typical D&D game. This is my current list:

    1) Battlefield Control: Prevent enemies from taking their normal actions and/or movement.

    2) Buffer: Increase the abilities of allies.

    3) Curiosity: Rarely used but helpful in some meaningful way. (Examples: Forgery, Tongues, Slow Fall, etc)

    4) Debuffer: Reduce the abilities of enemies, usually by inflicting status effects.

    5) Dominator: Take functional command of enemies.

    6) Game Changer: Can proactively reshape the game (or realty) to suit your goals. (Examples: Wish, Miracle, Gate, Psychic Reformation, anything that completely breaks the action economy, etc)

    7) Healer: Can restore hit points and remove harmful status effects for allies in combat.

    8) Meat Shield: Can stand in the front line of combat with a reasonable chance of not getting killed.

    9) Melee Damage: Deal meaningful damage to enemies within reach.

    10) Mobility: Can circumvent battlefield control and barriers, and quickly pursue or retreat from enemies.

    11) Party Face: Interacts with NPCs in a way that gets desirable results.

    12) Ranged Damage: Deal meaningful damage to enemies at a range.

    13) Sage: Knows or can find useful information.

    14) Scout: Locates enemies, threats, and other useful things while remaining hidden.

    15) Thief: Can take things from an enemy and enemy locations without being discovered.

    16) Summoner: Can summon allies (or make them) that fills other niches without putting the character directly in harms way.

    17) Trapfinder: Find and disarm or bypass traps.


    Now that we have a mostly workable list (some things could be split up or combined, depending on your games) I propose to rank each class according to how well they fill each niche. Here are my proposed rankings:

    1 = The class is unambiguously one of the best possible classes to fill that niche effectively and efficiently. Example: Druid can Summon Nature's Ally spontaneously and has full spell progression, and is thus one of the best possible classes to fill the Summoner niche.

    2 = The class can fill that niche effectively and efficiently, it's just not as amazing at it as other classes that fill that niche. Example: The Ranger gets bonus archery Feats, Favored Enemy, and a few useful low-mid archery related spells, but he's not nearly as efficient or effective at dealing Ranged Damage as a Sorcerer with some blasty spells known.

    3 = The class can fill that niche, but it's not particularly effective or efficient at it when compared to most other classes that fill that niche. For example, the Monk theoretically has a lot of attacks and scaled unarmed damage, but in practice it usually sucks at dealing damage Melee Damage when compared to most other classes that fill that niche.

    4 = The class offers absolutely nothing to support this niche. There's really no way a Barbarian is going to reasonably fill the Healer niche using Barbarian class abilities.

    For the purposes of scoring on this rubric, I would add the important caveat that a class shouldn't be counted as truly filling a niche unless they can do so effectively (ie, their raw numbers are high enough that you do whatever you're trying to so fairly well) and efficiently (ie, you can carry out the niche effectively without having to make an investment of other resources, such as Feats/magic items/PrC/etc, which are for the most part available to every class). For example, a Monk can theoretically fill the melee damage niche, but he does not do so effectively compared to most other classes, or it requires a serious investment of magic items and/or non-bonus Feats and/or PrC/multi-classing to do so effectively.


    Here is my twenty-third draft of rankings:

    Spoiler: Niche Ranking Chart
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    Class Book BFC Buff Curios Debuff Dominate Game C. Heal Meat S. Melee Mobility Party Face Ranged Sage Scout Thief Summon Trapfind Total
    Adept DMG 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 4 3 4 4 3 4 4 3 4 57
    Archivist HoH 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 1 3 2 1 3 2 2 2 28
    Ardent CPsi 2 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 1 3 2 2 2 3 2 3 37
    Aristocrat DMG 4 4 3 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 4 3 4 4 4 4 65
    Artificer ECS 1 1 2 1 2 1 2 3 3 1 3 1 1 2 3 2 2 31
    Barbarian PHB 3 4 4 4 4 4 4 2 2 3 3 3 4 4 4 4 4 60
    Bard PHB 2 2 1 2 2 3 2 3 2 2 1 3 2 2 1 2 3 35
    Battle Dancer DComp 3 3 3 3 4 4 4 3 3 2 4 3 4 3 2 4 4 56
    Beguiler PHBII 2 3 1 2 1 3 3 3 3 3 1 3 3 1 1 3 1 37
    Binder ToM 2 3 2 2 3 3 3 2 2 2 1 2 3 2 4 3 4 43
    Cleric PHB 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 3 2 1 3 2 2 2 26
    Commoner DMG 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 68
    Crusader ToB 2 2 4 3 4 4 3 1 2 3 3 3 4 4 4 4 4 54
    Death Master DComp 2 3 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 4 4 2 3 47
    Divine Mind CPsi 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 4 3 3 3 3 3 3 52
    Dragon Shaman PHBII 4 3 2 3 4 4 3 3 3 4 3 3 3 3 4 4 4 57
    Dragonfire Adept DMag. 2 3 3 2 3 3 3 3 3 2 2 2 2 3 4 3 2 45
    Dread Necro. HoH 3 3 2 2 3 3 3 2 2 3 3 3 4 4 4 2 3 49
    Druid PHB 1 2 1 2 3 2 2 1 1 1 3 2 2 2 2 1 3 31
    Duskblade PHBII 2 3 3 2 4 3 4 3 1 3 4 3 3 4 4 4 4 54
    Expert DMG 4 4 3 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 4 3 3 3 4 4 63
    Factotum Dung 2 3 1 3 3 3 3 3 2 2 1 3 1 1 1 3 1 36
    Favored Soul CDiv 2 1 2 2 2 1 1 1 2 1 2 3 2 3 3 2 2 32
    Fighter PHB 2 3 4 3 4 4 4 2 2 4 3 2 4 4 4 4 4 57
    Healer Min 3 3 3 3 4 3 2 2 3 3 3 3 3 4 4 3 4 53
    Hexblade CWar 3 3 3 2 3 3 4 3 2 3 3 3 3 3 4 3 3 51
    Incarnate MoI 3 3 2 3 3 3 3 1 3 3 2 2 2 3 3 2 2 43
    Jester DComp 3 3 2 3 3 3 4 3 3 2 3 3 3 2 1 3 3 47
    Knight PHBII 2 4 4 3 4 4 3 2 2 3 3 3 4 4 4 4 4 57
    Lurk CPsi 3 3 2 2 3 3 3 3 3 2 3 2 3 1 1 3 3 43
    Magewright ECS 3 4 3 4 4 3 4 4 4 3 4 4 3 4 4 3 3 61
    Marshal Min 3 3 3 4 4 4 4 3 3 3 1 3 3 4 4 4 4 57
    Monk PHB 3 4 3 3 4 4 3 3 3 2 3 3 3 3 3 4 4 55
    Mountebank DComp 3 4 3 3 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 3 3 2 2 4 1 52
    Mystic Dlance 2 1 2 2 2 1 1 2 2 1 2 3 2 3 3 2 2 33
    Ninja CAdv 4 4 3 3 4 4 4 3 2 2 3 2 4 2 2 4 2 52
    Noble Dlance 4 3 3 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 4 2 3 4 4 4 62
    Paladin PHB 3 3 3 3 4 4 3 2 2 3 3 3 3 3 4 3 4 53
    Psion EPH 2 3 2 1 1 2 3 2 3 1 3 1 3 2 2 2 3 36
    Psychic Rogue Web 3 3 1 2 3 3 3 3 2 2 2 2 3 1 1 3 1 38
    Psychic Warrior EPH 2 3 3 2 3 3 3 1 1 2 3 3 3 3 4 3 4 46
    Ranger PHB 3 3 3 3 4 4 3 3 2 2 3 2 3 2 3 3 3 49
    Rogue PHB 4 4 2 3 4 4 3 3 2 2 2 2 2 1 1 4 1 44
    Samurai OA 2 4 3 3 4 4 4 2 2 4 3 2 4 4 4 4 4 57
    Samurai CWar 4 4 4 3 4 4 4 2 2 4 3 3 4 4 4 4 4 61
    Savant DComp 3 3 1 3 4 3 3 3 3 3 2 3 1 2 2 4 1 44
    Scout CAdv 4 4 3 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 4 3 3 2 3 4 2 56
    Shadowcaster ToM 2 3 2 2 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 2 3 3 4 48
    Sha'ir DComp 1 1 1 1 1 1 3 2 2 1 2 1 1 2 2 2 3 27
    Shaman OA 2 2 2 3 3 2 1 3 3 3 3 2 2 3 4 2 3 43
    Shugenja OA 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 2 3 3 2 3 3 2 3 41
    Shugenja CDiv 2 2 3 2 4 3 2 3 3 2 3 2 2 3 4 3 4 47
    Sohei OA 3 3 3 3 4 4 3 2 3 3 3 3 4 4 4 4 4 57
    Sorcerer PHB 1 1 2 1 1 1 3 2 2 1 2 1 2 2 2 2 3 29
    Soulborn MoI 3 3 3 3 3 4 3 2 2 3 3 3 4 4 4 3 4 54
    Soulknife EPH 4 4 4 3 4 4 4 3 3 3 4 3 4 3 4 4 4 62
    Spellthief CAdv 3 3 2 2 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 2 3 3 2 47
    Spirit Shaman CDiv 2 2 2 2 3 2 2 3 3 3 3 2 2 3 4 1 3 42
    Swashbuckler CWar 4 4 3 3 4 4 4 3 2 3 3 3 4 3 4 4 4 59
    Swordsage ToB 2 3 3 3 4 4 4 3 2 1 3 3 4 2 3 4 4 52
    Totemist MoI 3 3 3 3 4 4 4 2 1 2 3 2 3 3 3 4 4 51
    Truenamer ToM 3 3 2 3 4 3 2 4 4 3 4 4 2 4 4 4 4 57
    Urban Druid DComp 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 2 3 37
    Warblade ToB 2 2 4 3 4 3 4 2 1 3 3 3 4 4 4 4 4 54
    Warlock CArc 2 3 3 2 2 4 3 3 2 3 2 2 3 3 3 2 3 45
    Warmage CArc 2 4 3 2 4 4 4 3 3 4 3 1 4 4 4 3 4 56
    Warrior DMG 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 4 4 3 4 4 4 4 4 65
    Wilder EPH 2 3 3 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 3 2 3 2 3 2 3 44
    Wizard PHB 1 1 1 1 1 1 3 2 2 1 3 1 1 2 2 2 3 28
    Wu Jen CArc 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 2 4 1 2 3 4 2 3 42


    I kept low numbers as better ratings for easier comparison to the Tier system.

    For my rating system, I do not assume the use of alternate class abilities, racial substitution levels, web material, magazines, 3rd party, home brew, obscure supplementary material, or optimization tricks that a reasonable DM might not allow in a RAW game. If you are using these, then a resourceful player can probably move almost any class up at least one ranking in almost any niche.

    When evaluating the "Total" score, you should ask yourself a very simple question. Does each niche listed commonly come up in the games you play? For example, in the old school D&D games I grew up playing combat was very deadly and gaining gp = gaining xp, so filling the Thief niche instead of trying to kill every enemy was really common and worthwhile. But if you're playing a hack and slash game where you're expected to fully clear every level of the dungeon, then that Niche is either meaningless or unimportant, and you should just subtract it from the Total of all classes before considering them.

    If you believe that I am in error on the 1/2/3/4 ranking for a class, please cite a clear example of how that class can effectively and efficiently fill that niche compared to other classes that can also fill that niche.
    At this point, I believe I have ranked all 3.5 classes. When I'm done defining and rebalancing each niche ranking in detail, I'll make a separate chart for Pathfinder classes.

    Thanks to everyone for your feedback.

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    Default Re: Person_Man's Niche Ranking System

    Question: How does the scoring system work in relation to classes that can do multiple things at once versus classes that are forced to focus on just one thing? These forums have made me painfully aware that Wizards can do essentially everything at the same time with horrific efficiency.
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    Default Re: Person_Man's Niche Ranking System

    Hey, a scoring system that actually shows what they are good at. For the record, truenamer definitely scores high in sage while low to moderate in the other things he was supposed to do (damage, buff, debuff)
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    Default Re: Person_Man's Niche Ranking System

    Summoner should probably be labeled Proxy Fighter or something like that, since it conceptually covers summoning, armies of followers, and undead legions.

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    Default Re: Person_Man's Niche Ranking System

    What about Blaster? Or is that already part of Ranged Damage?

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    Default Re: Person_Man's Niche Ranking System

    I guess they would score high in all areas they are good at.

    Speaking of which, the niches are lacking a few areas: blaster, manipulator (messing with peoples minds and perception, either magically or not), healer (HP, ability, and other conditions).

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    Default Re: Person_Man's Niche Ranking System

    Quote Originally Posted by Gwendol View Post
    I guess they would score high in all areas they are good at.

    Speaking of which, the niches are lacking a few areas: blaster, manipulator (messing with peoples minds and perception, either magically or not), healer (HP, ability, and other conditions).
    Blaster likely fits under Ranged Damage, while I'd guess Manipulator would fall under Dominator. Healer, however, should probably have a category (at least for ability damage/other conditions).

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    Default Re: Person_Man's Niche Ranking System

    Minor, minor note. Debuffer is missing the t in "the."

    I'm quite interested to see this grow.
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    Default Re: Person_Man's Niche Ranking System

    Healer may fall under Buffer, but I feel it may warrant its own category.
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    Default Re: Person_Man's Niche Ranking System

    What about Social Interaction: Good at getting desirable results from NPCs - information and clues, side-quests, favorable prices and offers of rewards.
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    Default Re: Person_Man's Niche Ranking System

    Where would a shapeshifter fit in this list? A 'morpher could fill many of those roles. A "Shapechanger" could potentially be added to the list. It's an often-encountered archetype, after all.
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    Default Re: Person_Man's Niche Ranking System

    Quote Originally Posted by Feytalist View Post
    Where would a shapeshifter fit in this list? A 'morpher could fill many of those roles. A "Shapechanger" could potentially be added to the list. It's an often-encountered archetype, after all.
    Seconded. Though how would it measured? Number of useful forms? Roles?
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    Default Re: Person_Man's Niche Ranking System

    Great idea.
    It might be worth adding a conditional for cases where a class can fill a niche with heavy optimization/investment. "Could be done, but not ideal/sacrifices other options." Perhaps down the road once the foundation is settled, or for discussing niche by class rather than classes by niche.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deox View Post
    Healer may fall under Buffer, but I feel it may warrant its own category.
    Healer is not typically an in-combat role though. In fact, typical advice is that the "healer" is whoever can use the wand of CLW/lesser vigor which was bought using party funds (which includes everything from the monk rogue with UMD, to the actual divine casters).

    The only worthwhile healing spell to cast in combat is "Heal", and that is (generally) only on the list of full blown divine casters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JeminiZero View Post
    Healer is not typically an in-combat role though. In fact, typical advice is that the "healer" is whoever can use the wand of CLW/lesser vigor which was bought using party funds (which includes everything from the monk rogue with UMD, to the actual divine casters).
    Yes, but I feel that is not the point. It would be a niche though I agree in retrospect maybe not buffer.
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    Default Re: Person_Man's Niche Ranking System

    Some of those might fit Curiosity, but "transportation/travel" might be a category worth noting

    Healing also covers removing status effects, diseases, ability damage, etc., not just hit point recovery. It's a little trickier to UMD your way through.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OverdrivePrime View Post
    What about Social Interaction: Good at getting desirable results from NPCs - information and clues, side-quests, favorable prices and offers of rewards.
    Face is probably a reasonable addition, unless it's considered Curiosity, I agree.
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    Default Re: Person_Man's Niche Ranking System

    'Game Changer' probably shouldn't actually be a separate niche. Its more that someone who is a 'Game Changer' can fulfill the needs of any of the other niches at will and on the fly.

    Also, in general for niches I would focus on the consequences of actions, not the style. So for instance, what is the 'consequence' of a summoner - it could be various things: damage output, healing, mobility, tanking, trapfinding. The only really unique thing about a summoner is that it breaks the action economy, so I would for example replace the 'summoner' niche with 'action economy'.

    Similarly, just because something is inefficient in D&D (like in-combat healing) doesn't mean that it isn't a niche that can be filled; it just means that there isn't anything in D&D right now that fills it well, and that generally people just use power in other areas to make up for its lack (e.g. avoiding hits or severely reducing incoming damage). If someone made a homebrew class that pumped out 10*level points of healing per round as an aura, it would absolutely be good at the 'Combat Healing' niche even if nothing else really is right now.

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    Default Re: Person_Man's Niche Ranking System

    Game changer seems kinda vague. Does it just mean that the class has some ridiculous power that comes into play in the late game, or does it mean, "This character is a caster of some kind." The former actually seems like a reasonable thing, because having a single late game power niche could work, but the latter falls into the same problem that the game itself falls into, in that it's putting game changing, which can do just about anything ever, on the same level as being a meat shield, or having forgery.

    As for additional niches, I agree that healer deserves a spot, mostly for status effect removal. Panacea and restoration aren't really buffs, and neither is raise dead. Sometimes, someone is going to go blind, and solving that is going to be an out of pocket expense if you lack a healing guy. Out of combat healing of HP damage is nice too. You may also want a face niche, for effective and efficient use of the face skills.

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    Default Re: Person_Man's Niche Ranking System

    Quote Originally Posted by Feytalist View Post
    Where would a shapeshifter fit in this list? A 'morpher could fill many of those roles. A "Shapechanger" could potentially be added to the list. It's an often-encountered archetype, after all.
    It depends heavily on the exact rules for shapechanging used. IMHO, in 3.5 there are generally 3 kinds of PCs who use shapeshifting in combat (as opposed to Changelings whose shapeshift is mostly useful out of combat):

    1) Druid Wildshape and Wiz/Sorc/Archivist/Psion with Alter Self/Polymorph: Typically used to make yourself into something big and strong. No SLA or SU, hence limited to either Meat Shield and/or Melee Damage forms.

    2) Anybody with Shapechange: By RAW, this spell is so broken that alone it automatically pushes the user into Game Changer (Zodar Free Wishes!).

    In both case above, the PC are still versatile, because they pack OTHER spell/powers besides being able to shapechange. And number 3:

    3) Wildshape Ranger-MoMF: Still mostly Meat Shield (with the added benefit of Ex immunities) or Melee Damage. Although a few forms pack special abilities.

    TL;DR: Shapeshifting by itself for PCs, is mostly geared towards Meat Shield/ Melee Damage role, although the Tier 1/2 PCs can do MORE than just shapeshift.

    (There is also the Warshaper/Bear Warrior, but from the PrC alone, he/she typically limited to one combat form, and again, most of time works as Meat Shield/Melee Damage).
    Last edited by JeminiZero; 2013-11-15 at 11:01 AM.
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    Default Re: Person_Man's Niche Ranking System

    I'm going to chip my 2cp in:
    • Game Changer is a poor category - it basically amounts to "can cast 9th level spells"
    • Thief should probably be renamed "Infiltration" to account for disguise options in addition to Sleight of Hand and Hide
    • Healer should be a category - yes, a wand can cover it, but there's a difference between a single wand's amount of healing and the raw output of a dedicated Truenamer healer
    • Mobility should get a category. Paladins are far more mobile than the average rogue, while Wizards are hyper-mobile.
    • Summoner and Dominator should probably be combined into Minion Mastery.

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    Default Re: Person_Man's Niche Ranking System

    For Game Changer, I think it can be replaced with a few roles:

    Rebuilder: Capability to change the bodies and capabilities of partymates or oneself on a permanent basis. Psychic Reformation, the Mind Switch line (and various Tippy tricks therein), Dark Chaos Shuffle, etc. Basically, the sort of capabilities that come in the character building phase, not in-session.

    Setting Change: This is everything from the ability to make a keep out of Wall of Stone to destroying a village with Blizzard. Anything that has an effect on a scale larger (either in time or space) than a typical encounter.
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    Default Re: Person_Man's Niche Ranking System

    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post
    For Game Changer, I think it can be replaced with a few roles:

    Rebuilder: Capability to change the bodies and capabilities of partymates or oneself on a permanent basis. Psychic Reformation, the Mind Switch line (and various Tippy tricks therein), Dark Chaos Shuffle, etc. Basically, the sort of capabilities that come in the character building phase, not in-session.

    Setting Change: This is everything from the ability to make a keep out of Wall of Stone to destroying a village with Blizzard. Anything that has an effect on a scale larger (either in time or space) than a typical encounter.
    I agree. I think these are both reasonable and important niches.

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    Default Re: Person_Man's Niche Ranking System

    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post
    For Game Changer, I think it can be replaced with a few roles:

    Rebuilder: Capability to change the bodies and capabilities of partymates or oneself on a permanent basis. Psychic Reformation, the Mind Switch line (and various Tippy tricks therein), Dark Chaos Shuffle, etc. Basically, the sort of capabilities that come in the character building phase, not in-session.
    This is a means, not an end, if you ask me.
    Setting Change: This is everything from the ability to make a keep out of Wall of Stone to destroying a village with Blizzard. Anything that has an effect on a scale larger (either in time or space) than a typical encounter.
    BFC.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

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    Default Re: Person_Man's Niche Ranking System

    A couple more

    Taxi
    The guy with the Teleports, Planeshifts, Overland Flight spells.
    Typically a Mage but could be a Cleric with the Travel domain or an Horizon Walker

    Crafter
    Makes stuff for the party
    π = 4
    Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' — Actually it's worse than that.


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    Default Re: Person_Man's Niche Ranking System

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    BFC.
    It's often a subset of BFC, but it still feels important and separate. Generally, it would probably mean BFC's of reasonable area and with instantaneous effects. Solid fog isn't really going to change anything in a long term and strategic way, but surrounding a village with walls to keep out invaders might. Like, let's say you use your magic to destroy a house, because that is a thing you want. Would you call that a BFC, if destroying the house doesn't have any immediate tactical ramifications? It's all about affecting change over the long term, which doesn't necessarily require a BFC.

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    Default Re: Person_Man's Niche Ranking System

    Quote Originally Posted by Evandar View Post
    Question: How does the scoring system work in relation to classes that can do multiple things at once versus classes that are forced to focus on just one thing? These forums have made me painfully aware that Wizards can do essentially everything at the same time with horrific efficiency.
    If you can fill a niche effectively and efficiently, then you get credit for it. If you can't, you don't. Being extra super amazing effective is highly dependent on optimization, and thus you don't get extra points for it just because you fill that niche better then everyone else. If a class is focused on a small subset of niches amazingly well, it would rank poorly in this system, and people interested in that class would clearly see that they should only play that class if they want to be great at only those niches.


    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    What about Blaster? Or is that already part of Ranged Damage?
    Correct.

    Blaster fits under ranged damage. Whether you use a bow to deal 50 points of damage or fireball to deal 50 points of damage is mostly meaningless. You're dealing ranged damage.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kuulvheysoon View Post
    Healer, however, should probably have a category (at least for ability damage/other conditions).
    Agreed and added.

    Quote Originally Posted by OverdrivePrime View Post
    What about Social Interaction: Good at getting desirable results from NPCs - information and clues, side-quests, favorable prices and offers of rewards.
    Agreed. Added Party Face niche.



    Thanks for the other feedback everyone. I'll probably be making additional tweaks, especially to the Game Changer niche. But I agree with NichG and Snowbluff comments that niche consideration should focus on the ends, not the means. If someone can Wildshape/Polymorph/etc, I'm not sure that's really a niche. It's an ability that they use which allows them to deal melee damage, be a meat shield, etc.

    Similarly, we'll need to carefully consider whether/if/how to include Mobility and/or Transporter or something similar. Being able to move quickly or interdimensionally really doesn't let you fill some meaningful role in the game on a regular basis. You just move around easier. Thinking of it as a niche can be a trap for players - in most cases it doesn't really help you kill enemies or otherwise solve or defeat challenges. And outside of combat, in most games everything moves at the speed of plot. If you can't Teleport somewhere, the dungeon will still be waiting for you when your party walks there.

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    Default Re: Person_Man's Niche Ranking System

    I'd add "or allows allies to take additional actions and/or movement" to Battlefield Control. I'm thinking White Raven mainly, but something like Snake's Swiftness would apply as well. I don't think those fall into the Buffing category very cleanly.

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    Default Re: Person_Man's Niche Ranking System

    Perhaps melee damage should say "enemies within reach", because characters with reach of 10ft or more can attack non-adjacent opponents.

    There is some overlap between "curiosity" and "sage", particularly with the mention of Bardic Knowledge.

    We could score each measure on a scale of 0 to 100. In this system, zero means the character is completely incapable of doing it, 50 might mean that it does a sub-par job if it tries, 100 means they can do it with perfect results all the time.

    Additionally, sub- categories might be added as needed.

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    Default Re: Person_Man's Niche Ranking System

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    Similarly, we'll need to carefully consider whether/if/how to include Mobility and/or Transporter or something similar. Being able to move quickly or interdimensionally really doesn't let you fill some meaningful role in the game on a regular basis. You just move around easier. Thinking of it as a niche can be a trap for players - in most cases it doesn't really help you kill enemies or otherwise solve or defeat challenges. And outside of combat, in most games everything moves at the speed of plot. If you can't Teleport somewhere, the dungeon will still be waiting for you when your party walks there.
    In combat
    • Counter many BFCs
    • Disengagement
    • Pursuit


    Out of Combat
    • Circumvent barriers
    • Need an item or spell — Teleport to Shop/Temple/Guild, get it, teleport back
    • Scry + Teleport etc.
    π = 4
    Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' — Actually it's worse than that.


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